EPT What these players are really saying is that they want a skill test in the game, which is fair enough, but they are also demanding that the test of skill be a specific skill test that they have all mastered. I think that's not only greedy and self-centred, but short sighted
Every click counts (or should it?) - Page 3
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TeWy
France714 Posts
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Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
On December 22 2009 01:56 IdrA wrote: save your time, discussions with him arent very productive Lets take a second to examine which one of us is really using old unproductive rhetoric. On December 21 2009 17:37 IdrA wrote: if you want pure strategy play chess The MBS Wars are over and with them these brand of false statements. The centralists won. Not the "interface must be exactly same as SC1" crowd and not the "everything should be automated" crowd. Niether extreme was correct. Unlimited Unit Selection, Automining and Multiple Building Selection WILL be in Starcraft 2 and no force on Heaven or Hell can stop that. | ||
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L
Canada4732 Posts
Please do not drop rational pieces of argumentation into this discussion. We had such a good run of being able to dismiss an argument with very little emphasis on its content, and a strong focus on how 'stupid' the person making it is. | ||
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RoieTRS
United States2569 Posts
On December 22 2009 04:23 L wrote: Please do not drop rational pieces of argumentation into this discussion. We had such a good run of being able to dismiss an argument with very little emphasis on its content, and a strong focus on how 'stupid' the person making it is. If only the world worked that way. Actually, I think I am one of the few here that actually agree with sirlin, however, I am one of those selfish people who like doing 10 actions to accomplish one thing. I believe that I am the only one that thinks this way. | ||
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True Swifty
Poland22 Posts
Blizzard should make the interface so raw as is possible, to make this game non-usual. I don't think, that non-confortable interface as it has place in sc: bw will make this game not attractive for casual gamers. | ||
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Severedevil
United States4839 Posts
On December 22 2009 03:08 TeWy wrote: The real good point he has made and what should we argue about is this imo: If SC2 were keeping the 'magic box' mechanic, or making Patrol/Hold Position react faster than Attack Move, I would understand this complaint. Those are quirks of the Starcraft engine that really aren't ideal. But giving precise instructions, quickly, is intrinsic to the idea of real time video games, and the mouse is the best known tool for doing so in RTS/FPS. On December 22 2009 04:23 L wrote: Please do not drop rational pieces of argumentation into this discussion. We had such a good run of being able to dismiss an argument with very little emphasis on its content, and a strong focus on how 'stupid' the person making it is. This is documented proof that Sirlin knows nothing about RTS. What the fuck is 'maximum useful APM'? It's a pretend, bullshit, incoherent concept. Yes, you could arbitrarily impose Fighting Game Rules on Starcraft, so that every time you give an order or move the screen, you have to wait .2 to .5 seconds before you can do anything else. You could purposefully fuck up the interface for no reason at all, just so the phrase 'maximum useful APM' isn't Sirlin's worthless attempt to feign relevance. Now... making certain tasks easier, so that play can focus more on other aspects of the game, is a legitimate concept. MBS, intelligent unit rallying, and a stacking/unstacking toggle for air units are all examples of such, as is the Hold Position command. They do sometimes raise the question of whether or not certain plays should place a higher or lower demand on the player's focus, however. It's interesting and significant that a player can stack mutalisk, can disarm mines with only Dragoons, and can skip units over key barricades with workers, but only by committing a lot of focus to that one specific task. Pushing up a ramp, while slightly less flashy, is another focus-intensive and powerful play, and holding a ramp against harassment could be promoted to one if Hold Position were removed. (1 base PvZ could be even more exciting in the early game with such a change. As it stands, Zerg can't harry the Protoss until Protoss moves out.) A downside of making a powerful effect more focus-intensive is it often feels artificial, because it is. Fighting games of course have no equivalent to these bad-ass moves, because fighting games have no multitasking. Once you can reliably perform a move in a fighting game, the only decision is whether or not it would benefit you - not whether or not it would benefit you and whether or not the benefit is worth the cost. | ||
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bEsT[Alive]
606 Posts
 On a side note: On December 22 2009 04:33 RoieTRS wrote: Actually, I think I am one of the few here that actually agree with sirlin, however, I am one of those selfish people who like doing 10 actions to accomplish one thing. I love it when someone tries to appear smart by using proper punctuation and failing. + Show Spoiler + "... ; however, ..." Lesson of the day. I wonder how long it takes for this topic to get closed. | ||
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bEsT[Alive]
606 Posts
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Kaneh
Canada737 Posts
if you want pure strategy play chess if you want a timed clickfest, play flash games. hurr hurr Yes It's real-time. real-time strategy, not real-time execution clickfest. It's about making quick decisions in real time. You say people wanted fastest so they could click faster, could they not have wanted fastest so that they needed to think faster and have a more exciting game that way? I really doubt people put it on fastest because they wanted to click more, pretty sure that's a byproduct, not the reason. Like Sirlin said, why is everyone afraid of losing pointless APM? Why not let proper decision-making, map awareness, timings, positioning, and other mental decisions (that still require clicks) take precedence? I don't get why everyone is so afraid of getting rid of pointless clicks. He's advocating that clicks SHOULD matter. Again, if someone has ridiculous control, why not let them attack 5 places at once with great micro instead of forcing them to spend clicks macroing? why not let them focus on fighting to get another expo up instead of spending clicks telling their workers to mine? That's his point. Yet another reason to get rid of all these pointless clicks is that it lowers the entry bar. It's really easy for someone to see why they're losing when you can attack five places at once and he can only focus on defending one place. The evidence of being skilled at control is right there for everyone to see. If noobs wanted to get into the game, it's really easy to understand how to get better and it's not some ridiculous grind to get your mechanics up to par before you can even try to do something. Sirlin himself admitted himself he doesn't know much about the intricacies of starcraft. But he does know about games. He isn't using familiar terminology, but if you actually think about what he's saying and try to see what it means in starcraft it applies really well. great APM and dexterity are important skills to have, but they shouldn't be such a massive requirement for playing the game, they should just make you better at it. | ||
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RoieTRS
United States2569 Posts
On December 22 2009 05:25 bEsT[Alive] wrote: Here we go again. On a side note: I love it when someone tries to appear smart by using proper punctuation and failing. + Show Spoiler + "... ; however, ..." Lesson of the day. I wonder how long it takes for this topic to get closed. Look more carefully, I didn't capitalize "Sirlin" either. Congrats on accomplishing absolutely nothing. | ||
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Severedevil
United States4839 Posts
On December 22 2009 05:25 bEsT[Alive] wrote: I love it when someone tries to appear smart by using proper punctuation and failing. Proper punctuation (and high language, for that matter) is not automatically an attempt to appear smart. Relinquish such notions. | ||
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Severedevil
United States4839 Posts
On December 22 2009 06:14 Kaneh wrote: Why not let proper decision-making, map awareness, timings, positioning, and other mental decisions (that still require clicks) take precedence? They do. | ||
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bEsT[Alive]
606 Posts
On December 22 2009 06:16 RoieTRS wrote: Look more carefully, I didn't capitalize "Sirlin" either. Congrats on accomplishing absolutely nothing. So you learned nothing? Good. I noticed that too, but that was beside the initial point I was making. Congrats. | ||
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RoieTRS
United States2569 Posts
On December 22 2009 06:33 bEsT[Alive] wrote: So you learned nothing? Good. I noticed that too, but that was beside the initial point I was making. Congrats. Gotta love it when people hate things like spelling and punctuation. Funny, I sensed a similar vibe in my 3rd grade class, when they make fun of the advanced class students for being smarter than them. | ||
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bEsT[Alive]
606 Posts
You mean to tell us you passed grade 3. Cool beans. Blog it, or take your grade three shenanigans elsewhere.  Back on topic. Kaneh, afraid is a bad word to use. You sound a lot like he who must not be named because around these parts, he's known as an attention whore. So many misconceptions. I don't even know where to begin. Anyway, we've been through this all before. A simple search would have sufficed. | ||
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RoieTRS
United States2569 Posts
On December 22 2009 06:49 bEsT[Alive] wrote: Once again, you missed the point. I never mentioned your spelling. You mean to tell us you passed grade 3. Cool beans. Blog it, or take your grade three shenanigans elsewhere. Mr. Forum Ego on an anonymous online message board insults someone and then backs off as soon as someone uses logic. | ||
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Archaic
United States4024 Posts
If you want pure strategy, play Go. | ||
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armed_
Canada443 Posts
Sirlin thinks of execution in a fighting game sense, ie. either you have it or you don't. If you don't have it your options are inferior compared to the people who do, so you're not really playing the true game. Ergo we must want SC2 to be difficult mechanically because we've already "mastered" the execution and we just want to force people who haven't to do the same before being allowed to play the game. Of course this doesn't apply to SC at all. Execution for any task beyond one's build order is more than just a binary state of doing it right or doing it wrong; there are a million different levels of effectiveness. If execution in fighting games is a bar that you have to pass before you can play, execution in Starcraft is an endless slope that every player is climbing. Even at the top level players don't perform any complex task ideally, and how well each player does different things varies greatly. The mechanics aren't simply something you learn and then you can play the game, mechanical competition is always a part of the game in itself and it's impossible for human players to perfect it. | ||
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Rufio
241 Posts
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bEsT[Alive]
606 Posts
Do you even know what backing off means? If you want to continue this discussion more PM me instead of creating a cesspool of shit on an already shitty thread, but don't expect a response anytime soon. That's what we call backing off chump. I could tease you all day if I really wanted to, but considering you have the mentality of a three year old... why bother? Continue playing the ass clown all you want. I recommend you do it on your own time though. Props. No point arguing with half wits. Here's some logic for you: turn off your computer and look the other way. | ||
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