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Just an idea:
Say a new structure, or a an ability that is researched at an existing structure, that allows the player to convert gas into minerals or vice versa. The ratio should be 2:1 or 3:1 or whatever strike balance, and should add an interesting macro mechanic into the game.
This should be applicable to all three races, but if a particular race is as gas heavy as zerg in BW, then this macro mechanic can be used to great advantage.
Thoughts?
Edit:
On December 21 2009 23:17 HaXXspetten wrote:
However, what could be fun to see, is resource trading between teammates in team-games. Not sure how that would work out either, but at least it would make perfect sense and hopefully make up for a lot more variation in games with 4 or more players.
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Interesting... it would definitely make min-only expansions much more worthwhile if you could convert some to gas when you really needed it. The problem would be that its probably fairly difficult to balance. I'd still go for it though, it would make things pretty interesting.
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but it doesn't really fit into the lore. which blizzard likes to maintain. i mean.. so the terran/protoss/zerg all found out a way to convert one to the other?
aside from the lore, i still don't like it. sure there'd be ration for balance, but still.. i just feel iffy about it. kinda pointless.
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On December 18 2009 21:16 F[5]aLaMaT wrote:
but it doesn't really fit into the lore. which blizzard likes to maintain. i mean.. so the terran/protoss/zerg all found out a way to convert one to the other?
aside from the lore, i still don't like it. sure there'd be ration for balance, but still.. i just feel iffy about it. kinda pointless.
Converting a resource into another is very different than racial conversion, I don't see why Terran can't have a "vespane crystalizer" to harvest minerals from gas.
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I think it might complify things a little too much. The simplicity, but diversity of the starcraft mecanics is what makes it fun to watch. The ressource exchange you describe reminds me of the Age of Empire trading post. It fits the lore in Age of Empire, but it wasn't a very exciting part of the game. Sniping refineries wouldn't have as much meaning to.
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On December 18 2009 21:42 WheelOfTime wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2009 21:16 F[5]aLaMaT wrote:
but it doesn't really fit into the lore. which blizzard likes to maintain. i mean.. so the terran/protoss/zerg all found out a way to convert one to the other?
aside from the lore, i still don't like it. sure there'd be ration for balance, but still.. i just feel iffy about it. kinda pointless. Converting a resource into another is very different than racial conversion, I don't see why Terran can't have a "vespane crystalizer" to harvest minerals from gas.
yeah but how do you take gas into minerals
it doesn't really make sense
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I fail to see how this would improve the game. A concept like that might make sense in the Age games where you have to manage three or four distinct resources, but there are only two resources in Starcraft 2, so there's no reason to make resource balance even easier.
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Making them interchangable, even at some cost, would reduce the strategic difference between mineral-only and gas expansions
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I don't like the idea at all. People would find ways to take advantage of the conversion and one race will become imba.
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I think, going of the little I know about SC2 but taking knowledge from BW, this would probably make things too hard for say Zerg when it comes to denying a Protoss third. If they can take a mineral only and convert the mineral surplus to gas then their late-mid game is unhindered by the zerg attempts to deny that third gas.
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On December 19 2009 00:45 Saturnize wrote:
I don't like the idea at all.
How to convert minerals to gas, spend 250 on a refinery building, done.
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No. This idea is really dumb, because it's a crutch for players who have bad macro. "Oh snap, I have 1000 minerals after harassing with mutas? No problem, just convert some into gas, and make more units!"
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I feel like when creating a game, the best question to ask isn't necessarily always "What more can we add?" but "What do we most need." Ideas like this are really neat, don't get me wrong, but in real terms, what would it, if implemented, really add to the game?
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there is already a mechanic for balancing minerals/gas. Its called moving the workers off gas and onto minerals and vice versa. this should be easy because with the dual gas there is a lot of workers mining gas.
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United States3824 Posts
I'm pretty sure that they mine differently still in SC2. I mean in Age of Empires and Settlers of Catan it makes sense because everything should be able to be harvested at the same rate but you might get into a situation where you can't mine gold, for instance.
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I don't like this idea either. The way you convert minerals to Gas or Gas to minerals is by changing how many workers you commit to either. Being able to change this after the fact will have to have a cost, making it less efficient than doing it right, and largely won't be used much. Convert minerals to gas? Build workers (minerals) and a gas building (minerals), now have them mine gas (gas). Convert gas to minerals? Eh, maybe you could have a way to build workers for gas instead of minerals, but again that wouldn't fit in with the lore much. I suppose you could have a gas-heavy building that mines deep for minerals--a mineral mine. I would be okay with something like that.
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Personally this would alienate me from the game. I would just think WTF is this to be able to convert minerals to gas. It makes no sense and breaks so many game lore logics it's not even funny.
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Try Atrox, it has this mechanic. It's a pretty nice mechanic for making the game faster paced. But in Atrox one has 3-4 gas in one's main base, so it's a good idea to get them all running as fast as possible to convert unneeded early game gas into minerals to produce units and construct more barracks/factories etc. at the same. time.
It's definately not a dumb idea and wort considering.
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Canada780 Posts
I don't really know how I feel about this mechanic. On one hand it could create some interesting game play and strategies. But on the other hand we would never have those games where the map gets mined out and the two players have to try and win with a handful of units.
Undecided
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On December 21 2009 05:37 HowitZer wrote:
Personally this would alienate me from the game. I would just think WTF is this to be able to convert minerals to gas. It makes no sense and breaks so many game lore logics it's not even funny.
well how do you(in general) explain reavers friendly exsplosion, that only explodes on the right units in a clumpfight, lorewise. Or the fact that lingz survive the mine explosion if they make it explode before the mine explode (it sounds so deliciously stupid that way  ).
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Pretty lame idea sorry, not only does it make no sense at all, it will reward bad players who can't manage their resources well. An example: when I started playing I was bad at managing my resources I had very good micro but would often get so caught up in a battle, I would forget to spend my resources or expand to another gas expansion leaving me with an massive excess of minerals, if I could convert them to gas then why would I even bother learning from my mistakes? Hope that makes sense.
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It's not a terrible idea. You just have to make it so converting minerals to gas isn't worthwhile except for particular builds or situations. It could result in some interesting builds or timing pushes possibly.
But this late in the development I think it would be a pretty difficult change to implement.
And for people complaining about lore, what the shit? The whole thing is sci-fi there is so much stuff in SC that doesn't make sense. Hell you can condense water vapour into ice, add a lil sci-fi magic and you can condense gas into crystals.
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Well, then what about a neutral building in the middle of a map, where you can convert minerals/gas? It doesn't have to be on every map, so it doesn't destroy the balance of a map So this... this would probably make things too hard for say Zerg when it comes to denying a Protoss third. If they can take a mineral only and convert the mineral surplus to gas then their late-mid game is unhindered by the zerg attempts to deny that third gas. ... wouldn't be a problem.
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On December 21 2009 04:05 Sentient66 wrote:
No. This idea is really dumb, because it's a crutch for players who have bad macro. "Oh snap, I have 1000 minerals after harassing with mutas? No problem, just convert some into gas, and make more units!"
Finally someone said it.
This would ruin the game as it takes away one of the most important and interesting decisions in the game away; when to take your gas(es). (I'm very very excited that this decision has to be made 4-6 times in the early-midgame now, rather than only 2-3 times.
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Gas macro mechanic costs minerals
Mineral macro mechanic costs gas
EZ
(too bad none of the races macro mechanics works in a way such that this functions)
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This is an awful idea, depth comes from the strict separation of the two. I would commend you for taking the first step toward game design, everyone comes up with ideas like this at the beginning but it's simply not a good idea- it's more complicated, it muddies and reduces important absolutes relating gas to time.
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Realistically speaking, (yes, no matter what you believe, a game still has to have some sense of realism) how would you possibly convert rocks into oil?
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This would almost completely change around map making and all strategy in the game. If suddenly you had the ability to create the exact ratio of mineral/gas you wanted then so many strategies might open up.
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Just call it a trade depot(obviously the zerg and protoss would have something different haha) and make it so you have exchange rates based on what the other players (or computers) are buying/selling. Then you could have little delivery car like things that go to an ally's trade depot and bring back goods to give you gas/mins at yours. If it was farther away it would bring more profit at a slightly higher than linear rate too! It would put an entire new twist on map control because you would have to defend these different routes between the bases. Obviously, the trade vehicles would be pretty cheap (probably same cost as normal worker), so that you wouldn't be putting too much at risk if your opponent forced you back, but you could have immense advantage without the risk of taking a new base -- a risk which is even high in 2v2 or even larger team matches.
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On December 21 2009 09:42 EmeraldSparks wrote:
Gas macro mechanic costs minerals
Mineral macro mechanic costs gas
EZ
(too bad none of the races macro mechanics works in a way such that this functions)
This would be pretty sexy for something like the protoss model where you need saturation anyway. So it's not like- BAM! gas/minerals but more like- 6 probes on gas pay 200 minerals faster gas mining etc.
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Why would there be a need for vespene geysers if this was implemented?
It takes the whole point of having gas expansions that are harder to defend then mineral only expansions when they provide the exact same resource.
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On December 21 2009 12:06 dhe95 wrote:
Realistically speaking, (yes, no matter what you believe, a game still has to have some sense of realism) how would you possibly convert rocks into oil?
you melt it? >.> just like you can turn shale rocks into an oil usable as petroleum.
What would be interesting is to see what happens in ultra-late game low-econ situations where players have like 5K gas and 0 mins. unless the ratio is heavily skewed both ways, ie 5 mins=1 gas 5 gas=1min, It would not be physically possible to starve out your opponent anymore.
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LOL
i dont like the idea. sounds way too age of empires...
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On December 21 2009 16:26 Chen wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2009 12:06 dhe95 wrote:
Realistically speaking, (yes, no matter what you believe, a game still has to have some sense of realism) how would you possibly convert rocks into oil? you melt it? >.> just like you can turn shale rocks into an oil usable as petroleum. What would be interesting is to see what happens in ultra-late game low-econ situations where players have like 5K gas and 0 mins. unless the ratio is heavily skewed both ways, ie 5 mins=1 gas 5 gas=1min, It would not be physically possible to starve out your opponent anymore.
Why wouldn't it? Theres still a finite amount of minerals and gas on the field. And once it's gone it's gone. Even a 1:1 conversion ratio would still result in starvation when everythings depleted.
Btw I don't think I like this idea. It does open up more build order variations, but the two seperate minerals are a defining part of the resource system. If you end up with a heap of gas at the end of a game BL, you chose a more mineral heavy build and didn't account for it in very late game. If you end up witha heap of extra minerals, gg buy some mineral only units and see what you can do. I would rather see a 3rd physical resource added than the first two being interchangable. Even if it is to a bad return ratio.
And if they did allow resource conversion... No it should not be in the form of a neutral building. How would that even make sense? And even if you could justify it with lore, it's bording on a WC3 mechanic. + Show Spoiler +Not saying WC3 is bad, just that Blizzard has done a good job differentiating the two RTSs, and I don't like the idea of bringing them closer together with neutral trading posts.
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Say for the Terran, when you have a starport you could build a trade outpost add-on. The add-on would enable a special trade option on the starport. When a trade is started on the starport, it has a build time like any unit, temporarily disabling the starport for other use. A trade consists of selling 1000 minerals for 700 gas. You lose the 1000 minerals at the start of the trade and you gain 700 gas when the trade is done.
Using this mechanic could enable certain rushing strategies for gas heavy tech or units. Of course as with any early to mid game build, tweaking of balance is important for the build to be viable and a reasonable alternative to other builds. There are many balance factors (read: options) in this setup plus the visual cue for the scouting dynamic.
Now I am talking Terran only here as it fits nicely with lore (and I am actually thinking of the trade building from dune 2). I don't think it is necessary for all races to be equal in such an ability. Also, separate from the implementation of any resource conversion mechanism, it is silly to outright claim that the general idea has no place in starcraft 2.
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The idea of having a Marketplace in a RTS is not exactly revolutionary, and it only works out well in some games. However, the ones where it DOES work, it works just awesome. Take AoE II, or Rise of Nations. (The latter in particular) Those games would have been so different without resource trading. If this was introduced in SC II, I've got a feeling that it wouldn't work out as well. First of all, it wouldn't make as much sense; what could convert minerals to vespene gas. It's not like you can just trade it in one of your own structures in SC II, so I doubt it would be a good idea, not to mention how much it would change progaming from what it is today; to the worse I'm afraid.
Overall, I don't think this is a good idea for SC II.
However, what could be fun to see, is resource trading between teammates in team-games. Not sure how that would work out either, but at least it would make perfect sense and hopefully make up for a lot more variation in games with 4 or more players.
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And if they did allow resource conversion... No it should not be in the form of a neutral building. How would that even make sense? And even if you could justify it with lore, it's bording on a WC3 mechanic. Why would that make no sense? A trade-post/marketplace with natives buying and selling stuff, doesn't sound that absurd to me.
I also don't understand why it would be a problem that it reminds you of the WCIII mechanic. Wouldn't be the first time that SC and WC lend ideas from each other.
Besides, there wasn't anything like a market/conversion place in WCIII, or am I wrong?
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It would make it impossible to dictate what your opponent can build. You could destroy all his gas geysers and he'd still be building some tanks. This is also unwatchable because you cannot begin to guess what a player's mineral/gas counts are under the hood because it all happens invisibly behind the scenes.
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Lavoisier principle : Nothing is lost, nothing is created, all is transformed.
If you can transform X -> Y (X into Y), it implies that X=Y.
In some other RTS games like AoM you can trade a ressource for another one, but that's completly different, that is historically and economically accurate.
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No it does not imply X = Y simply because you can transform X into Y and Y into X.
Liquid water can be transformed into water vapor and water vapor can be transformed into liquid water but liquid water does NOT equal water vapor.
There are other elements involved in the transformation.
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Justifying it lore-wise minerals and gas would be used for certain processes which in turn produce the materials to build the units. Minerals and gas could be used for all the processes but min and gas being far more efficient at different processes. The game automatically assumes you want the resources used for their most efficient processes but this conversion mechanic would just be you just reassigning minerals for a less efficient processes, in essence giving you 'more gas' in exchange for twice as many minerals for example.
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Hello here, this is STARCRAFT 2. Not AGE OF EMPIRES 4.
Simple as that. Keep the resources as minerals/gas only. Make totally different from each other. If you could convert them to one another, all in facets in the game involving the deprivation of gas/minerals in certain situations would be completely removed. Let's try not to open a completely new can of worms. Remember, SC2 should be as balanced as possible because people will play this professionally, not like AoE3 where only the really imba are nerfed, and usually into complete oblivion.
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On December 22 2009 00:19 AMaidensWrath wrote:Show nested quote +And if they did allow resource conversion... No it should not be in the form of a neutral building. How would that even make sense? And even if you could justify it with lore, it's bording on a WC3 mechanic. Why would that make no sense? A trade-post/marketplace with natives buying and selling stuff, doesn't sound that absurd to me. I also don't understand why it would be a problem that it reminds you of the WCIII mechanic. Wouldn't be the first time that SC and WC lend ideas from each other. Besides, there wasn't anything like a market/conversion place in WCIII, or am I wrong?
I am talking about a neutral group which trades with all 3 races that I find absurd. In the Warcraft universe there is enough cross communication to allow a neutral trading party to exist. The starcraft universe is different. Not the game, the world. Zerg and Terran both comminicating with a 3rd party and exchanging resources does not seem right at all. That all I meant by everything which was not in my spoiler tag.
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On December 22 2009 08:47 ForTenPoints wrote:
No it does not imply X = Y simply because you can transform X into Y and Y into X.
Liquid water can be transformed into water vapor and water vapor can be transformed into liquid water but liquid water does NOT equal water vapor.
There are other elements involved in the transformation.
Atomically speaking X=Y.
I tried to make it clearer for a non-scientific.
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Technically it is true that when you convert anything you do not end up with an equal amount in return, because some of the energy is converted into heat, light, sound etc. But I think you getting a bit too technical.
It would not be an equal conversion for balance anyway. Gas is clearly more valuable than minerals. You would probably get more minerals per gas than gas per minerals.
Either way the question is would a resource conversion system benifit the game?
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I made a similar but slightly more complicated process involving mineral-to-gas and gas-to-mineral conversion. It was a reincarnation of the old gas mechanic combined with a special version of the Proton Charge mechanic. Minerals could be spent to increase the income of gas (more gas per trip) by permanently upgrading the Refinery/Extractor/Assimilator. Gas could be spent to increase the income of minerals (more minerals per trip) by temporarily boosting the cutting power of workers for a fixed number of trips (instead of a fixed time interval). The catch is that the resources you spend to get a boost would be lost for the sake of a boost — not converted directly into another resource.
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EPT
