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Probably you chose words that, in a different tone, could mean something completely different. It's the miracle of text communication.
As for your idea, I wonder a little about how it would work with island expos available allowing for pretty safe muling once you got to air tech.
Also, what exactly is preventing you from summoning mules in your own bases? And if you disallow that, (that is, you couldn't mule your own bases at all) Terrans would effectively not have a macro mechanic late game, unless it consisted of summoning a million mules at their opponent's expos.
Thus it runs kind of opposite of the protoss and zerg mechanics. Whereas the protoss and zerg mechanics get more difficult to manage as you increase in your number of mining bases, Terrans at some point will flatline if they lose control of their last open expand. Which, by the way, also prevents them from getting gas at that last expansion.
I dunno, it's interesting. I'd have to see how it played out.
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What if MULES could mine gas?
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On December 17 2009 01:50 phyvo wrote: As for your idea, I wonder a little about how it would work with island expos available allowing for pretty safe muling once you got to air tech.
Yes you could remote mine MULEs from a island expo. One strategy would be to float a building over to give you vision.
On December 17 2009 01:50 phyvo wrote: Also, what exactly is preventing you from summoning mules in your own bases?.
Nothing, if you want to mine safely you should call down MULEs in your base. If you want gold minerals or to extend the life time of the mineral in your base then you might want to call down outside of the base.
On December 17 2009 01:50 phyvo wrote: Thus it runs kind of opposite of the protoss and zerg mechanics. Whereas the protoss and zerg mechanics get more difficult to manage as you increase in your number of mining bases, Terrans at some point will flatline if they lose control of their last open expand.
You would still be able to call down MULEs on mineral lines you control just like you can now.
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On the fifth day of Christmas, Blizzard gave to me,
Finally, good targeting!!! + Show Spoiler +The issue of Redundant Targeting may be the best reason to change the MULE. The following is adapted from my SCLegacy article “Examining the Macro Mechanics.” You can read the full article here http://sclegacy.com/feature/9-contributor/543-examining-the-macro-mechanicsRedundant Targeting occurs when there is not sufficient decision making in a targeting action. A targeting action is when the game asks you to pick a location or candidate. The game is asking for the player’s positional input because there are various viable locations. It is the player’s task to pick the most appropriate choice. Whether an action has Redundant Targeting depends on the frequency the player changes their target, and not just the presence or absence of other targets. The current MULE has much Redundant Targeting where the player is calling many MULEs to the same location at once and repeating this action many times. To clarify the player will change the destination. But this will not happen often and when it does happen the destination will apply to all MULEs. If you have a Planetary Fortress you want to drop your MULEs there for added protection. If you control a yellow mineral field you want to drop the MULE there for more minerals. A Remote Mining MULE increases the frequency with which the desired destination changes. It also increases the number of destinations to choose from. If that was not enough there are certain scenarios (next two days) where players might actually want to send each MULE to a different location. Combined these aspects finally give sufficient reason why the player must clarify the target every time.
More falling birds, + Show Spoiler +Wings of Liberty is an appropriately title for the Terran campaign. The Terrans are birds of war, a highly nomadic race adapt at colonizing, harvesting and departing a planet rapidly. This is represented in one of the major Terran themes: Orbital Support. Where ever there is a major conflict you can be sure there is a Terran armada in high orbit above the planet. Some of the in-game representations include buildings that can lift off, nukes that fall from high orbit and satellite scanner sweeps. Starcraft 2 adds to this with the ability to calldown supplies and mining robots from orbital assets.
If you’ve played Halo Wars or Dawn of War you know how cool it feels to visualize troops and supplies dropping from space. One of my favorite things about Halo Wars was seeing supply ships come down to your base, drop off supplies and fly back up to the orbiting cruiser. It really reinforced the feeling that your buildings and war machines weren’t just appearing out of nowhere. They were being deployed to the planet. Your base was a front line outpost. Remember that first scene in Brood Wars where the marine yells “WHERE IS THE AIR SUPPORT?” That is how playing Terran should feel. You should have the impression that you always have orbital support at your back. That you are part of a larger military operation.
Remote Mining MULEs can help reinforce this Terran theme by portraying planet wide strip mining operations. Like the humans in Deadspace, the Terrans are stripping the planet of its resources from above. Thousands of mining droids are descending to remote parts of the planet to survery and extract valuable ores. These are mining droids originally designed for harvesting deep space asteroids and junk metal from derelict vessels. Having gathered their payload they ascend to the orbiting ship they came from.
Free expands, + Show Spoiler +Gameplay wise the Terran have always been adapt at expanding to new mineral fields. In Starcraft 1 Terrans could lift-off and float a Command Center to a new mineral field. In SC2 the Command Center has gained the ability to transport 4 SCVs during lift-off. Combined with a faster lift-off speed the SC2 Terrans have superior expansion capabilities.
A Remote Mining MULE could transform the Terrans knack for expanding into a racially unique playstyle. Like Zerg's larva managment, remote expansion mining would give Terran commanders a new level of resource management. Playing Terran would mean maximizing mineral intake by maintaining map control. Lift-off and SCV ferrying would then allow Terran players to easily upgrade remote MULE expansions to permanent expansions.
A tool turtlers love, + Show Spoiler +Many new players turtle. Much of this is that they are afraid to leave the base. The fog of war makes the enemy seem everywhere. Something as simple as expanding just outside your doorway seems dangerous. This becomes a self fulfilling prophecy as an uncontested enemy expands and contains the new player.
A Remote Mining MULE can help new players overcome this psychological hurdle by showing them that expanding is usually not as hard or dangerous as they think it is. It allows them to put their foot out the door without risking a whole Command Center. As an example they may put a MULE down at a nearby expansion. After a while they learn it is safe to advance their forces to this uncontested area. Finally, seeing that they have secured the area they can begin establishing a new base.
A Remove Mining MULE also serves as an asset for “legitimate” Tutling. These are the great plays that skillfully use timing pushes, chokes, siege tank lines and bunkers to secure victory. Terran are the Turtling race and while this role may be slightly toned down for Starcraft 2 it remains a powerful strategic playstyle. Remote Mining MULEs would allow Turtling players to resist enemy containment by gathering additional resource outside of the base. This provides additional resource flow while the Terran builds up to break out. Additionally, calling down MULE’s on distant parts of the map may force the enemy to divert forces from containment to scouting.
And a brand new M.U.L.E.! + Show Spoiler +Mineral Uptake and Launch Engine (M.U.L.E.)
Step 1: Drop Pod could be called down anywhere the player has vision. This allows MULEs to remotely mine from unoccupied high yield mineral expansions.
Step 2: Drop Pod would tranform into a MULE which would begin mining. It would collect minerals constantly instead of making many mineral trips. If needed player could manually order mineral deposit at a Command Center. Friendly workers could mine from the same mineral patch at the same time but enemy workers would be blocked
Step 3: After 30 seconds the MULE would transform into an Atmospheric Escape Pod and rocket back into space carrying all the minerals it had gathered. The player would then receive the mineral bounty.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
Many new players turtle. Much of this is that they are afraid to leave the base. The fog of war makes the enemy seem everywhere. Something as simple as expanding just outside your doorway seems dangerous. This becomes a self fulfilling prophecy as an uncontested enemy expands and contains the new player.
This is sadly too true. As a new player I can confirm that it is sometimes awkward to get myself to leave my own base since I have no idea if I'm walking into a trap. It's getting better though as I play more.
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On December 17 2009 08:19 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +Many new players turtle. Much of this is that they are afraid to leave the base. The fog of war makes the enemy seem everywhere. Something as simple as expanding just outside your doorway seems dangerous. This becomes a self fulfilling prophecy as an uncontested enemy expands and contains the new player. This is sadly too true. As a new player I can confirm that it is sometimes awkward to get myself to leave my own base since I have no idea if I'm walking into a trap. It's getting better though as I play more.
Do you think being able to remotely mine with a MULE could help teach you how to take expansions?
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On December 17 2009 08:25 Archerofaiur wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2009 08:19 Qikz wrote:Many new players turtle. Much of this is that they are afraid to leave the base. The fog of war makes the enemy seem everywhere. Something as simple as expanding just outside your doorway seems dangerous. This becomes a self fulfilling prophecy as an uncontested enemy expands and contains the new player. This is sadly too true. As a new player I can confirm that it is sometimes awkward to get myself to leave my own base since I have no idea if I'm walking into a trap. It's getting better though as I play more. Do you think being able to remotely mine with a MULE could help teach you how to take expansions?
Even if you cold remotely mine with a MULE, new players would not use it to do so for the same reasons that they have trouble leaving their base now. They are afraid of what could be there waiting to kill their units. They don't want to lose units, which in this case is their MULE.
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On December 17 2009 08:35 TestSubject893 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2009 08:25 Archerofaiur wrote:On December 17 2009 08:19 Qikz wrote:Many new players turtle. Much of this is that they are afraid to leave the base. The fog of war makes the enemy seem everywhere. Something as simple as expanding just outside your doorway seems dangerous. This becomes a self fulfilling prophecy as an uncontested enemy expands and contains the new player. This is sadly too true. As a new player I can confirm that it is sometimes awkward to get myself to leave my own base since I have no idea if I'm walking into a trap. It's getting better though as I play more. Do you think being able to remotely mine with a MULE could help teach you how to take expansions? Even if you cold remotely mine with a MULE, new players would not use it to do so for the same reasons that they have trouble leaving their base now. They are afraid of what could be there waiting to kill their units. They don't want to lose units, which in this case is their MULE. which would they be more willing to risk
a 400 mineral building or a unit with 30 seconds timed life anyway
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4 units with 30 seconds if maxed out in energy as i know people will be
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
On December 17 2009 08:35 TestSubject893 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2009 08:25 Archerofaiur wrote:On December 17 2009 08:19 Qikz wrote:Many new players turtle. Much of this is that they are afraid to leave the base. The fog of war makes the enemy seem everywhere. Something as simple as expanding just outside your doorway seems dangerous. This becomes a self fulfilling prophecy as an uncontested enemy expands and contains the new player. This is sadly too true. As a new player I can confirm that it is sometimes awkward to get myself to leave my own base since I have no idea if I'm walking into a trap. It's getting better though as I play more. Do you think being able to remotely mine with a MULE could help teach you how to take expansions? Even if you cold remotely mine with a MULE, new players would not use it to do so for the same reasons that they have trouble leaving their base now. They are afraid of what could be there waiting to kill their units. They don't want to lose units, which in this case is their MULE.
Well as I've been playing more I've learnt when to expand. But it's just the thing of some players arte genuinly worried about stepping out of their choke because they don't know what's there.
The scanners help with that though. I mean the main thing with the Mule is it makes Flash style powering builds a hell of a lot easier due to the fact you can mega turtle and remote mine every once in a while. When you have the power to push out you just fly a CC over there and take it that way.
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On the sixth day of Christmas, Blizzard gave to me,
Tricky game playing, + Show Spoiler +Its late game and things are looking bad. You need to expand and you need to expand right now. The enemy knows if he keeps you from getting minerals the game is his. Suddenly the enemy sees a banshee fly towards the two free expansions in the upper left of the map. He rallys his army to the first base. Sure enough there are two MULEs mining there. He destroys them but knows that you would have had more MULEs avalible. He heads for the other top expansion. Two more MULEs are frantically mining. He laughs as he dispatches them. The game is his. He moves his army back down to the middle of the map and prepares to walk through the front door. It is only then that he notices that you have taken that time to secure two new expansions in the bottom portion of the map. Your gambit has put you back in the game. In the first segement of my Thesis to Increase Macro* I mentioned the idea of making macro tasks more like a mini game. Mini games are present throughout Starcraft. One example is scourge vs Muta micro. In a similar manner I believe good macro must incorporate a level of mini game fun with unique dynamics and tasks. Remote Mining MULE’s would create cat and mouse gameplay where the Terran tries to stealthily mine from hidden positions and the enemy tried to hunt down and destroy these MULEs before they completed their mission. It is like playing the Crane game except there is a tiny crane eating monster swimming among all the toys and you have to dodge it and time your crane dropping correctly. There are benefits to targeting each MULEs to a separate hidden position so it is harder for the enemy to kill them all. This is an example of Non-Redundant Targetin. Additionally, Remote mining MULEs would allow economic harassment to take place at more places then just a player’s mineral line. Raiders and Mutalisk would not lose their usefulness as soon as the enemy put down enough base defense. These and other raiding units could continue scouting unclaimed expansions. For example, in the scenario up above if the enemy had a few raiding units they could have sent those to quickly destroy the MULEs while maintaining pressure on the enemy. * http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=78498
Finally good targeting!!! + Show Spoiler +The issue of Redundant Targeting may be the best reason to change the MULE. The following is adapted from my SCLegacy article “Examining the Macro Mechanics.” You can read the full article here http://sclegacy.com/feature/9-contributor/543-examining-the-macro-mechanicsRedundant Targeting occurs when there is not sufficient decision making in a targeting action. A targeting action is when the game asks you to pick a location or candidate. The game is asking for the player’s positional input because there are various viable locations. It is the player’s task to pick the most appropriate choice. Whether an action has Redundant Targeting depends on the frequency the player changes their target, and not just the presence or absence of other targets. The current MULE has much Redundant Targeting where the player is calling many MULEs to the same location at once and repeating this action many times. To clarify the player will change the destination. But this will not happen often and when it does happen the destination will apply to all MULEs. If you have a Planetary Fortress you want to drop your MULEs there for added protection. If you control a yellow mineral field you want to drop the MULE there for more minerals. A Remote Mining MULE increases the frequency with which the desired destination changes. It also increases the number of destinations to choose from. If that was not enough there are certain scenarios (next two days) where players might actually want to send each MULE to a different location. Combined these aspects finally give sufficient reason why the player must clarify the target every time.
More falling birds, + Show Spoiler +Wings of Liberty is an appropriately title for the Terran campaign. The Terrans are birds of war, a highly nomadic race adapt at colonizing, harvesting and departing a planet rapidly. This is represented in one of the major Terran themes: Orbital Support. Where ever there is a major conflict you can be sure there is a Terran armada in high orbit above the planet. Some of the in-game representations include buildings that can lift off, nukes that fall from high orbit and satellite scanner sweeps. Starcraft 2 adds to this with the ability to calldown supplies and mining robots from orbital assets.
If you’ve played Halo Wars or Dawn of War you know how cool it feels to visualize troops and supplies dropping from space. One of my favorite things about Halo Wars was seeing supply ships come down to your base, drop off supplies and fly back up to the orbiting cruiser. It really reinforced the feeling that your buildings and war machines weren’t just appearing out of nowhere. They were being deployed to the planet. Your base was a front line outpost. Remember that first scene in Brood Wars where the marine yells “WHERE IS THE AIR SUPPORT?” That is how playing Terran should feel. You should have the impression that you always have orbital support at your back. That you are part of a larger military operation.
Remote Mining MULEs can help reinforce this Terran theme by portraying planet wide strip mining operations. Like the humans in Deadspace, the Terrans are stripping the planet of its resources from above. Thousands of mining droids are descending to remote parts of the planet to survery and extract valuable ores. These are mining droids originally designed for harvesting deep space asteroids and junk metal from derelict vessels. Having gathered their payload they ascend to the orbiting ship they came from.
Free expands, + Show Spoiler +Gameplay wise the Terran have always been adapt at expanding to new mineral fields. In Starcraft 1 Terrans could lift-off and float a Command Center to a new mineral field. In SC2 the Command Center has gained the ability to transport 4 SCVs during lift-off. Combined with a faster lift-off speed the SC2 Terrans have superior expansion capabilities.
A Remote Mining MULE could transform the Terrans knack for expanding into a racially unique playstyle. Like Zerg's larva managment, remote expansion mining would give Terran commanders a new level of resource management. Playing Terran would mean maximizing mineral intake by maintaining map control. Lift-off and SCV ferrying would then allow Terran players to easily upgrade remote MULE expansions to permanent expansions.
A tool turtlers love, + Show Spoiler +Many new players turtle. Much of this is that they are afraid to leave the base. The fog of war makes the enemy seem everywhere. Something as simple as expanding just outside your doorway seems dangerous. This becomes a self fulfilling prophecy as an uncontested enemy expands and contains the new player.
A Remote Mining MULE can help new players overcome this psychological hurdle by showing them that expanding is usually not as hard or dangerous as they think it is. It allows them to put their foot out the door without risking a whole Command Center. As an example they may put a MULE down at a nearby expansion. After a while they learn it is safe to advance their forces to this uncontested area. Finally, seeing that they have secured the area they can begin establishing a new base.
A Remove Mining MULE also serves as an asset for “legitimate” Tutling. These are the great plays that skillfully use timing pushes, chokes, siege tank lines and bunkers to secure victory. Terran are the Turtling race and while this role may be slightly toned down for Starcraft 2 it remains a powerful strategic playstyle. Remote Mining MULEs would allow Turtling players to resist enemy containment by gathering additional resource outside of the base. This provides additional resource flow while the Terran builds up to break out. Additionally, calling down MULE’s on distant parts of the map may force the enemy to divert forces from containment to scouting.
And a brand new M.U.L.E.! + Show Spoiler +Mineral Uptake and Launch Engine (M.U.L.E.)
Step 1: Drop Pod could be called down anywhere the player has vision. This allows MULEs to remotely mine from unoccupied high yield mineral expansions.
Step 2: Drop Pod would tranform into a MULE which would begin mining. It would collect minerals constantly instead of making many mineral trips. If needed player could manually order mineral deposit at a Command Center. Friendly workers could mine from the same mineral patch at the same time but enemy workers would be blocked
Step 3: After 30 seconds the MULE would transform into an Atmospheric Escape Pod and rocket back into space carrying all the minerals it had gathered. The player would then receive the mineral bounty.
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nvm its brilliant
The song that has come from this thread not the mule ideas.
Edited because "I'm wrong!"
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On December 18 2009 07:31 Synwave wrote: Maybe the horrid doodle art where you argue everyone that has an opposing view? Or...oh wait thats every thread you start. Lesson: don't disagree with archer in his threads, he feeds on it.
Your wrong!
On December 18 2009 07:31 Synwave wrote: nvm its brilliant
The song that has come from this thread not the mule ideas.
What dont you like about Remote Mining MULEs again?
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That doesnt sound like a Remote Mining MULE problem.
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I can see this getting shut down by zerg fairly easily. I mean, two lings at any expo will stop MULES from mining there. You would have to bring out your forces to protect them. And then it just turns into a regular expansion where you cant expand until you have enough forces to defend it.
So basically you would end up calling down MULES in friendly territory, and you would do that with the current MULES anyways. I guess its an extra option though.
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On December 18 2009 08:21 Knee_of_Justice wrote: I can see this getting shut down by zerg fairly easily. I mean, two lings at any expo will stop MULES from mining there. You would have to bring out your forces to protect them. And then it just turns into a regular expansion where you cant expand until you have enough forces to defend it.
So basically you would end up calling down MULES in friendly territory, and you would do that with the current MULES anyways. I guess its an extra option though.
Coincidentaly the same thing also applys to terran sending an SCV to make an expo. So why doesnt a zerg player send two zerglings to all expansions every game?
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I find I win more often bit when I lett the enemy establish expansions before destroying them. Just killing a worker heading out to create a base only lowers your enemys ecconomy by 25 as oppose to 400+ when they have established the base and maybe even made a few more workers.
This is not true of the MULE tho. Having a ling or two near each expo could prevent quite a bit of funds being generated by the enemy.
Edit: I am really liking the format of your latest Theorycrafting tho Archer. A lot of these types of articles can just become one persons idea followed by a lot of arguing. The way you are dividing this idea into your 12 steps and adding to the concept each time without too much debate in between is really giving the topic a different tone to some of your other articles.
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On December 17 2009 02:17 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: What if MULES could mine gas? Isn't this a big thing in WC3? Undead iirc can mine gold without being at their base. Please god keep sc2 as far away from wc3 as you can.
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On December 18 2009 08:59 0mgVitaminE wrote:Isn't this a big thing in WC3? Undead iirc can mine gold without being at their base. Please god keep sc2 as far away from wc3 as you can.
There is one in every thread.
Oh and thank you Decoup. Let us know more of what you think about this idea.
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