Since late September there has been a fair amount of blue posts over on the Korean SC2GDF. One of our staff members over at SC:Legacy had posted an article providing translations of these posts as well as some thoughts about the information. The full article can be found here. The following is a summary of the info in the main article.
GHOST ABILITIES: — Nuclear Launch — — Area-based large area of effect. — — Launches a nuke from a Silo to the painted target or area. — — Takes a few seconds to hit. — Snipe — — Target-based single unit effect. — — Costs 25 energy. — — Deals 45 damage to selected biological unit. — — Ignores armor. — — Has virtually no cooldown. — EMP Shot — — Area-based (medium?) area of effect. — — Costs 100 energy. — — Removes energy from all units within an area. — — Deals a fixed amount of damage to shields within an area. — — Decloaks all cloaked units for 5 seconds including passive cloaks like DT. — Cloak — — switched-based single unit effect (Ghost). — — Costs initial 25 energy. — — Removes fixed amount of energy each second.
PROTOSS SHIELD REGENERATION: The out-of-combat "super-regen" has been removed, and shield regeneration has returned to the same slow rate found similarly in SC1. The rate is the same for all shielded units.
MAP SIZE AND CAMERA LIMITS: Available map dimensions start from 32 and move all the way up to 256 at intervals of 8 (32, 40, 48, ......, 240, 248, 256). Also, camera limits may be set up so that there is terrain outside of the playable map area for the sake of aesthetics. A map with the dimensions 256x96 and the camera limit of 240x80 will have terrain for all 24576 squares of the map but will only allow units to move and buildings to be built on the inner 19200.
MISCELLANEOUS INFO: Comic Contest prize package always includes beta invitation. In game help is set to F11. Not sure about minimum computer spec requirements, but multiple quality levels for graphics and audio will be available for adjustment. Please tell us about your ideas for contests or polls and we'll send them to the proper staff. Computer AI difficulties will vary from those that will make noobs rofl all the way to those that will make Boxer sit in a corner and cry.
And as always, all things are subject to balance and/or change.
On November 04 2009 15:19 konadora wrote: ghost sounds fucking imba now lol
Yeah, lol.
What pisses me off the most is the removal of the out-of-combat regen rate for Protoss shields. Do you think it's some sort of cheap attempt to provide the energy tension they want vs Proton Charge? All I see happening is Protoss players just building more Obelisks and using PC just like they always have.
Quote: So that players can increase their skill steadily, I think the computer difficulty should be divided into 6 stages: Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced, Expert, Semi-Pro, and Pro.
We plan to include difficulty as low as beginner-friendly up to difficulties where players will have no idea how to fight back.
wow wtf so i can get to face jd /flash/ bisu in SC2?????
On one hand, its really not impressive when the AI is mining twice as fast and has full map vision. On the other hand, time spent on making a cool AI is potentially time spent away from other aspects of the game so I am kind of in the middle about this.
Where are we supposed to use Snipe’s 45 damage… Besides Marines, Reapers, and Zerglings there isn’t anything that dies in one hit… This isn’t sniping at all…
In my opinion, because it only costs 25 energy it feels reasonable.
And because there’s almost no cooldown, you could hold down Shift and ‘click click click’ with your mouse and even bring down a Marauder with ease. I think the ability isn’t in a bad state, and the energy cost or damage for Snipe might change in the future.
I think this needs to be said. Also, if you snipe really fast, it'd be MGS? /runs
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I only have this to say: FUCKING PROVE IT!
4 (6 now) pool vs 14CC
Frankly, the only way for SC2 to be consistently competitive without cheating is to patch the hell out of it with every game play revolution, at minimum.
Quote: So that players can increase their skill steadily, I think the computer difficulty should be divided into 6 stages: Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced, Expert, Semi-Pro, and Pro.
We plan to include difficulty as low as beginner-friendly up to difficulties where players will have no idea how to fight back.
wow wtf so i can get to face jd /flash/ bisu in SC2?????
No, no, no. JD/Flash/Bisu are but noobs in front of the PRO AI. AI next bonjwa. But seriously, this statement better not be made with the intentions of giving the AI unfair advantages such as extra resources, vision, etc like someone else mentioned (which is what is done in WC3). That would just feel so gimmicky....
Well honestly an AI could micro to an extent impossible for humans, and have an extreme edge against human players without "cheating" (extra resources or maphack), depending on how much more effective well-micromanaged units are. Considering Brood War as we have it now - AI's could make queens, dark archons, etc very effective, and in masses too. With perfect moving shots, some units become more powerful. Perfect lurker splits, maneuvering to spread damage (having a different mutalisk 'in front' each attack), perfect mine defusing, and so on.
On November 04 2009 16:16 Zona wrote: Well honestly an AI could micro to an extent impossible for humans, and have an extreme edge against human players without "cheating" (extra resources or maphack), depending on how much more effective well-micromanaged units are. Considering Brood War as we have it now - AI's could make queens, dark archons, etc very effective, and in masses too. With perfect moving shots, some units become more powerful. Perfect lurker splits, maneuvering to spread damage (having a different mutalisk 'in front' each attack), perfect mine defusing, and so on.
Quote: So that players can increase their skill steadily, I think the computer difficulty should be divided into 6 stages: Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced, Expert, Semi-Pro, and Pro.
We plan to include difficulty as low as beginner-friendly up to difficulties where players will have no idea how to fight back.
wow wtf so i can get to face jd /flash/ bisu in SC2?????
No, no, no. JD/Flash/Bisu are but noobs in front of the PRO AI. AI next bonjwa. But seriously, this statement better not be made with the intentions of giving the AI unfair advantages such as extra resources, vision, etc like someone else mentioned (which is what is done in WC3). That would just feel so gimmicky....
yeah, wc3 ai (even with 2x income and full vision) is pretty retarded, I can win with undead (or any race for that matter)
I'm pretty sure I've seen mentions of the most difficult AIs having unfair advantages.
I can't see how it could be that difficult any other way really. Most of the AI design is going on now and during beta, so how could they possibly get the AI gameplay to that level of near-perfection when the AI designers themselves don't know how the balance changes, build orders and metagame are going to evolve during the game's lifetime?
They could if they were using some machine learning algorithms and one central AI. This would be quite difficult to implement though and I doubt they're doing it. But this way the AI would learn BOs and micro tricks just as any other bnet player. A supernatural infinitive fast learning player that is, a player with the experience of many thousand games played a day.
On November 04 2009 18:08 Konni wrote: They could if they were using some machine learning algorithms and one central AI. This would be quite difficult to implement though and I doubt they're doing it. But this way the AI would learn BOs and micro tricks just as any other bnet player. A supernatural infinitive fast learning player that is, a player with the experience of many thousand games played a day.
On November 04 2009 19:00 DanceDance wrote: We wont know about balance issues until beta, but I don't think Ghosts will be imba simply because of the high level micro required to snipe.
On November 04 2009 19:00 DanceDance wrote: We wont know about balance issues until beta, but I don't think Ghosts will be imba simply because of the high level micro required to snipe.
On November 04 2009 19:00 DanceDance wrote: We wont know about balance issues until beta, but I don't think Ghosts will be imba simply because of the high level micro required to snipe.
it wont be that hard now due to smartcast
oh really? I didn't know snipe had smartcast o.o
Everything has either smartcast autocast (repair, heal, Interceptors) or is a 'self' effect ie Cloak, Blink, Burrow, Move, Stim, Siege, Viking Transform
Not sure about BC D. Matrix... but I would guess that is is 'non smart cast' as well
'Attack' is the only exception
In any case I hope the Ghost loses that EMP detection effect I also Really hope the Protoss get their fast OOC regeneration back. (if it was OP early game, then keep the same mechanism, ie delay before regen, but have the actual speed start normal and get upgraded.... if it was OP late game, then increase the duration.)
Why wouldnt it have smartcast? All smartcast means is that if you have 5 ghosts selected, and press snipe and click the templar, only one will snipe. Also, ghosts are freaking expensive in SC2 I believe. 150/200, 2 food, if SC2armory is correct.
On November 04 2009 20:18 T.O.P. wrote: Computers can definately micro in some situations. Try playing tvt in broodwar. The computer will get like 10 ghosts and lockdown all your units.
Problem is that he tends to lockdown the first unit he encounters ... vultures instead of tanks for example ...
Quote: So that players can increase their skill steadily, I think the computer difficulty should be divided into 6 stages: Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced, Expert, Semi-Pro, and Pro.
We plan to include difficulty as low as beginner-friendly up to difficulties where players will have no idea how to fight back.
wow wtf so i can get to face jd /flash/ bisu in SC2?????
No, no, no. JD/Flash/Bisu are but noobs in front of the PRO AI. AI next bonjwa. But seriously, this statement better not be made with the intentions of giving the AI unfair advantages such as extra resources, vision, etc like someone else mentioned (which is what is done in WC3). That would just feel so gimmicky....
I guarantee that they will just add unfair advantages to the AI for the harder levels. People don't realize how hard it is to program a good AI. It took about 50 years to get chess programs that could play against the pros. Doing such an AI for SC2 would probably take far more effort than actually making the basic game.
On November 04 2009 23:12 canucks12 wrote: Ghosts are the new counter to High Templars :O
and dark templars
and the mothership's cloaking and energy (it's extremely slow and vulnerable to emp), and zealots to snipe, and immortals to bash their shields, and archons for the same reason, and disruptors, and nuking has become the ultimate harass (see BR4).
It will be probably like in warcraft 3: -crappy build orders -decent spell casting (do not confuse it with micro); even in starcraft computer ghosts can lockdown everything -unlimited minerals (Ive learned it when Ive tried to starve the computer)
Well I think it was reported that the highest level AI would not cheat 'map hack' wise but would get extra income, and that all the rest would be normal
As for different settings, it is possible to Handicap players in WC3 (changing the amount of damage done + hp of units.... there will probably be a similar setting for SC2)
Quote: So that players can increase their skill steadily, I think the computer difficulty should be divided into 6 stages: Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced, Expert, Semi-Pro, and Pro.
We plan to include difficulty as low as beginner-friendly up to difficulties where players will have no idea how to fight back.
wow wtf so i can get to face jd /flash/ bisu in SC2?????
No, no, no. JD/Flash/Bisu are but noobs in front of the PRO AI. AI next bonjwa. But seriously, this statement better not be made with the intentions of giving the AI unfair advantages such as extra resources, vision, etc like someone else mentioned (which is what is done in WC3). That would just feel so gimmicky....
I guarantee that they will just add unfair advantages to the AI for the harder levels. People don't realize how hard it is to program a good AI. It took about 50 years to get chess programs that could play against the pros. Doing such an AI for SC2 would probably take far more effort than actually making the basic game.
Well, if they have abilities like that of the ghost that seem like no brainers and only limited by apm, the computer will be at a tremendous advantage.
On November 04 2009 20:02 Catch]22 wrote: Why wouldnt it have smartcast? All smartcast means is that if you have 5 ghosts selected, and press snipe and click the templar, only one will snipe. Also, ghosts are freaking expensive in SC2 I believe. 150/200, 2 food, if SC2armory is correct.
Yeah, sniping ghosts in a decent mass would get pretty insane, but I don't think they're going to be built for that considering their insane cost at the moment.
On November 04 2009 15:26 Whiplash wrote: ghost is def an anti caster role type unit, although i am kind of disappointed that they nerfed toss shields.
I could argue that it's actually a buff, and not a nerf. the new mechanic only worked when out of combat (after X seconds or whatever) where it compensated for the lack of regen during the fight. When a point of shields is popping up every hit or every other hit its like an armor upgrade.
On November 04 2009 19:00 DanceDance wrote: We wont know about balance issues until beta, but I don't think Ghosts will be imba simply because of the high level micro required to snipe.
it wont be that hard now due to smartcast
oh really? I didn't know snipe had smartcast o.o
In any case I hope the Ghost loses that EMP detection effect
It's probably not as cheap as it sounds. Just look at the ways terran has to detect in SC1 compared to sc2.
SC2: ebay-turret+sensor tower Orbital command center-scan(at expense of mule energy) (does the new vessel detect still?) and then there is the ghost temp detect
It's one more option for detection, but detection seems to be a lot harder/more expensive in sc2. Think of it like a mini scan. Or if you have multiple ghosts its like a shittier version of constant detection that a vessel provides. Or the long lasting effect of scan. I think it will provide more cool moments where DT are dodging scans and such.
On November 05 2009 00:32 Equaoh wrote: Does burrowed count as cloaked - does EMP reveal burrowed units.
I kinda doubt it. Logically speaking, this would make no sense whatsoever.
Agree with that. EMP = Electro magnetic pulse. It haywires all machines (which cloak things) drains all power and shields, and apparently fucks with psi energy as well (which would explain how DT becomes uncloaked).
However Burrowed units are just buried, you can ever argue that they might even be protected from the EMP being underground and all.
(assuming that) This brings me back to my detection is harder in sc2 point. The ghost 'scan' doesn't even work versus zerg.
It's pretty much impossible to build a non-cheating AI that can beat progamers. Or rather, I guess I should say it's not possible for Blizzard to do that with their current resources.
On November 04 2009 15:26 Whiplash wrote: ghost is def an anti caster role type unit, although i am kind of disappointed that they nerfed toss shields.
I could argue that it's actually a buff, and not a nerf. the new mechanic only worked when out of combat (after X seconds or whatever) where it compensated for the lack of regen during the fight. When a point of shields is popping up every hit or every other hit its like an armor upgrade.
On November 04 2009 19:00 DanceDance wrote: We wont know about balance issues until beta, but I don't think Ghosts will be imba simply because of the high level micro required to snipe.
it wont be that hard now due to smartcast
oh really? I didn't know snipe had smartcast o.o
In any case I hope the Ghost loses that EMP detection effect
It's probably not as cheap as it sounds. Just look at the ways terran has to detect in SC1 compared to sc2.
SC2: ebay-turret+sensor tower Orbital command center-scan(at expense of mule energy) (does the new vessel detect still?) and then there is the ghost temp detect
Actually, for SC2 its ebay-Turrets Orbital command center-scan(at expense of mule energy) tier 3 tech- Nighthawk Ghost.. with ability to detect Ghosts, Banshees, DT, Observers.. and possibly Mothership cloaked units/buidings
If Terrans are having problems with Detection, then they should just make Comsat cheaper... 50 too expensive, make it 25.... or 10... or 5 if Terrans still have too much trouble with detection.
And the Protoss thing isn't as much of a Buff or a Nerf as it is a decrease in distintiveness. The ability was easy to balance 1. Change the 'delay' 2. Change the ooc rate
Both 1 + 2 could be affected by techs/buildings if they were imbalanced at different points in the game (Building certain buildings/researching certain upgrades increases the ooc rate or the delay across the board)
They could even design it so that attacking/using an energy ability resets the 'delay' as well.
Also, camera limits may be set up so that there is terrain outside of the playable map area for the sake of aesthetics.
Fuck. More work for mappers.
Not really, that sounds like the same functionality the Warcraft 3 editor already has, which isn't painful to manage at all. By default there's just enough extra space on each side to fill in the camera when it hits the edge of the gamefield, and it's really easy to adjust.
They also really need to put some more work into having the AI actually use its advantages if its going to cheat. The WC3 Insane AI gets double resources, and then proceeds to not use them and has 4k gold 5 minutes into the game. It's actually very little different from the normal AI except that it can last longer with 0 mining bases, since it's spent the entire game building up tons of resources.
On November 04 2009 15:26 Whiplash wrote: ghost is def an anti caster role type unit, although i am kind of disappointed that they nerfed toss shields.
I could argue that it's actually a buff, and not a nerf. the new mechanic only worked when out of combat (after X seconds or whatever) where it compensated for the lack of regen during the fight. When a point of shields is popping up every hit or every other hit its like an armor upgrade.
On November 04 2009 19:29 Krikkitone wrote:
On November 04 2009 19:23 DanceDance wrote:
On November 04 2009 19:21 konadora wrote:
On November 04 2009 19:00 DanceDance wrote: We wont know about balance issues until beta, but I don't think Ghosts will be imba simply because of the high level micro required to snipe.
it wont be that hard now due to smartcast
oh really? I didn't know snipe had smartcast o.o
In any case I hope the Ghost loses that EMP detection effect
It's probably not as cheap as it sounds. Just look at the ways terran has to detect in SC1 compared to sc2.
SC2: ebay-turret+sensor tower Orbital command center-scan(at expense of mule energy) (does the new vessel detect still?) and then there is the ghost temp detect
Actually, for SC2 its ebay-Turrets Orbital command center-scan(at expense of mule energy) tier 3 tech- Nighthawk Ghost.. with ability to detect Ghosts, Banshees, DT, Observers.. and possibly Mothership cloaked units/buidings
If Terrans are having problems with Detection, then they should just make Comsat cheaper... 50 too expensive, make it 25.... or 10... or 5 if Terrans still have too much trouble with detection.
And the Protoss thing isn't as much of a Buff or a Nerf as it is a decrease in distintiveness. The ability was easy to balance 1. Change the 'delay' 2. Change the ooc rate
Both 1 + 2 could be affected by techs/buildings if they were imbalanced at different points in the game (Building certain buildings/researching certain upgrades increases the ooc rate or the delay across the board)
They could even design it so that attacking/using an energy ability resets the 'delay' as well.
wait, i'm pretty sure turrets need sensor towers to be able to detect. I swear it was like that at blizzcon. It could have changed though since then?
In addition to all the AI settings, I wish we could have the ability to make the computer perform specific build orders, rather than seeing the stupid zealot rush with shield battery over and over.
On November 05 2009 16:06 Clownbaby wrote: In addition to all the AI settings, I wish we could have the ability to make the computer perform specific build orders, rather than seeing the stupid zealot rush with shield battery over and over.
the toss ai in brood war has 3 openings zealot rush fast expansion DT rush
On November 04 2009 15:26 Whiplash wrote: ghost is def an anti caster role type unit, although i am kind of disappointed that they nerfed toss shields.
I could argue that it's actually a buff, and not a nerf. the new mechanic only worked when out of combat (after X seconds or whatever) where it compensated for the lack of regen during the fight. When a point of shields is popping up every hit or every other hit its like an armor upgrade.
I would agree with you. Yet, super-regen after certain delay was soo cool lorewise.
On November 04 2009 18:08 Konni wrote: They could if they were using some machine learning algorithms and one central AI. This would be quite difficult to implement though and I doubt they're doing it. But this way the AI would learn BOs and micro tricks just as any other bnet player. A supernatural infinitive fast learning player that is, a player with the experience of many thousand games played a day.
It is most likely possible with the current technology. Google already has an AL system that is capable of self-perfecting its own translation function through reading online posts.
But of course, like hell that Blizzard is gonna spend millions on developing a system like that when they know that the customers want multiplayer, not human v.s. AL.
On November 05 2009 17:40 spkim1 wrote: The best AI will never beat the best human. All Hail Never_Die (to an AI) Jaedong!
July once said that Zerg is the most powerful race if the perfect micro can be achieved...umm...
On November 05 2009 16:06 Clownbaby wrote: In addition to all the AI settings, I wish we could have the ability to make the computer perform specific build orders, rather than seeing the stupid zealot rush with shield battery over and over.
the toss ai in brood war has 3 openings zealot rush fast expansion DT rush
[B]On November 04 2009 15:10 n00bonicPlague wrote: PROTOSS SHIELD REGENERATION: The out-of-combat "super-regen" has been removed, and shield regeneration has returned to the same slow rate found similarly in SC1. The rate is the same for all shielded units.
Yay when Beta's out SC2's new features have been deleted completely and SC1 is fully restored. Hooray xD *sarcasm*
On November 05 2009 16:06 Clownbaby wrote: In addition to all the AI settings, I wish we could have the ability to make the computer perform specific build orders, rather than seeing the stupid zealot rush with shield battery over and over.
the toss ai in brood war has 3 openings zealot rush fast expansion DT rush
On November 05 2009 02:59 Krikkitone wrote: Well I think it was reported that the highest level AI would not cheat 'map hack' wise but would get extra income, and that all the rest would be normal
As for different settings, it is possible to Handicap players in WC3 (changing the amount of damage done + hp of units.... there will probably be a similar setting for SC2)
I'm fairly certain it's impossible to make the computer not maphack, it's builds are completely based off the map itself and there's no way to make it scout like a human at correct times and in correct areas.
Why is so little discussion based on the loss of the new shield mechanic?
Am i the only one to be a little irritated to see it gone?
What could their reasoning be? I dont see why they would have scrapped it since it doesnt seem that hard to balance... and it was definitely very protoss-y
I mean, who am I to say that, but seriously, it seemed like there were enough variables to make sure it was balanced right?
On November 05 2009 02:59 Krikkitone wrote: Well I think it was reported that the highest level AI would not cheat 'map hack' wise but would get extra income, and that all the rest would be normal
As for different settings, it is possible to Handicap players in WC3 (changing the amount of damage done + hp of units.... there will probably be a similar setting for SC2)
I'm fairly certain it's impossible to make the computer not maphack, it's builds are completely based off the map itself and there's no way to make it scout like a human at correct times and in correct areas.
Well somehow they have done it. According to Blizzcon 1 (I think) the computer would send a worker scout and everything.
EPT
