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BigJoe
United States210 Posts
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RaFeStaR
United States161 Posts
On May 17 2011 22:32 starcraft911 wrote: Day9 is wise enough to know that arguing balance in a game that is amazingly balanced by RTS game standards is a fruitless journey. When zerg is winning as many GSL's as T and P despite having fewer players representing that race then it's really difficult to see any argument of a total racial imbalance as being valid. Certain builds on certain maps in certain situations in certain matchups are favored, however, the night and day difference IdrA sees between his race and the others is a little outlandish despite being an avid IdrA fanboy. I think day9 made a wise decision to abstain from the argument as it was going to go nowhere. This pretty much sums it up. The only thing you didn't hit on is the fact that he does a daily show where he attempts to help people improve, so him being involved in a balance discussion could potentially make things he says invalid. I'd go so far to say that it's not his goal to help people by giving them an arsenal of excuses. | ||
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Ineffability~
84 Posts
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ArhK
France287 Posts
On May 17 2011 22:55 Ineffability~ wrote: I loved iNcotrol's point that Idra thinks Terran was the weakest race in broodwar(where 4 of the 5 bonjwas are terrans...) and respectively zerg for SCII. I personally wouldn't go argue about balance with someone who has done THE SAME build since the beta (someone even joked that even if you don't scout you know Idra's doing muta/ling). When you are narrowing your working capabilities to like 70% of the zerg's arsenal, of course you'll brag about how versatile other races are. The other thing is that he wants a build that is good vs everything. That's like asking for a investment pattern that will 100% bring you certain wins with no possibilities for losses. It would be such a stupid game if there were 3 builds for every race that basically account for everything the opponent might throw at you. That's why you need to get the most possible information from what you see on the one side, and hide as much information as possible on the other side. As I said I wouldn't argue with someone as uncreative as Idra. I am sorry sir, but : - Creativity has NOTHING to do with credibility. Also, by saying such non sense regarding Idra's style against Terran, you sure haven't watched his stream recently. - I don't see the problem with stating Terran is the weakest race, when 4/5 top world player are Terran. It is such a small sample, you can't deduce anything from it. Maybe those 4 players are such hardworking and talented that they overcome the "weakness" of their race. You can't say anything about balance when taking the top 5 or even top 10 worldwide player, and trying to deduce any balance intelligence... | ||
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Platzwart
Germany9 Posts
On May 12 2011 12:44 Horse...falcon wrote: MYMDay[9]? EGDay[9]? LiquidDay[9]? DignitasDay[9]? FnaticDay[9]? ROOTDay[9]? FXODay[9]? DuckloadDay[9]? or Duckload[9]? MouzDay[9]? EmpireDay[9]? GrubbyDay[9]? bets! ROOTDay[9]! I think Catz would give him an instant invite :D | ||
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Linwelin
Ireland7554 Posts
On May 17 2011 23:06 Platzwart wrote: ROOTDay[9]! I think Catz would give him an instant invite :D Catz slept in Day9's bed afterall | ||
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Ineffability~
84 Posts
On May 17 2011 23:01 ArhK wrote: I am sorry sir, but : - Creativity has NOTHING to do with credibility. Also, by saying such non sense regarding Idra's style against Terran, you sure haven't watched his stream recently. - I don't see the problem with stating Terran is the weakest race, when 4/5 top world player are Terran. It is such a small sample, you can't deduce anything from it. Maybe those 4 players are such hardworking and talented that they overcome the "weakness" of their race. You can't say anything about balance when taking the top 5 or even top 10 worldwide player, and trying to deduce any balance intelligence... Well sir, if it is achievable by someone, DOES MEAN the problem is in the players not the race its self see? If he says something like terran was the HARDEST to play, okay I can't argue his meaning, but when people have proven that it's doable, don't see how can you argument against something like that. It's like stating it's not possible to run 100 meters in 5 seconds lets say, and then 4 people go and do it, this means its doable but requires dedication. Creativity has everything to do with you bitching about balance when you as I said are using 70% of your arsenal. Again example you play chess with the white figures and you remove your bishops and rooks and then stating, well the black pieces are overpowered. He maybe started trying something out, but he hasn't spent the last 5 months of 12 hours per day playing trying out new stuff rather than refining what he already has, and he states what he has doesn't work. | ||
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
On May 17 2011 22:55 Ineffability~ wrote: I loved iNcotrol's point that Idra thinks Terran was the weakest race in broodwar(where 4 of the 5 bonjwas are terrans...) and respectively zerg for SCII. I personally wouldn't go argue about balance with someone who has done THE SAME build since the beta (someone even joked that even if you don't scout you know Idra's doing muta/ling). When you are narrowing your working capabilities to like 70% of the zerg's arsenal, of course you'll brag about how versatile other races are. The other thing is that he wants a build that is good vs everything. That's like asking for a investment pattern that will 100% bring you certain wins with no possibilities for losses. It would be such a stupid game if there were 3 builds for every race that basically account for everything the opponent might throw at you. That's why you need to get the most possible information from what you see on the one side, and hide as much information as possible on the other side. As I said I wouldn't argue with someone as uncreative as Idra. Several points: -Idra is quite aware that most of the bonjwas are Terrans and in fact made the point that that is NOT the case in Starcraft 2. -You do realize that ZvT is probably his best matchup right now, so even if people know exactly what he's doing he still wins? That's about as solid play as you can get. -No, he wants a build that is good against everything OR some way to scout the Terran to choose the best build. What he wants is better scouting, because it's incredibly easy for Terran to deny scouting for the zerg, forcing a "coinflip" in the early game So yea, your complaints against IdrA aren't really what he's talking about. Creativity has everything to do with you bitching about balance when you as I said are using 70% of your arsenal. Again example you play chess with the white figures and you remove your bishops and rooks and then stating, well the black pieces are overpowered. He maybe started trying something out, but he hasn't spent the last 5 months of 12 hours per day playing trying out new stuff rather than refining what he already has, and he states what he has doesn't work. I'm tired of people saying IdrA doesn't try new things. Have you watched him play? You do realize he did Spanishiwa Build in the NASL? You do realize he just did a surprising cheese to Sen? He does not do the same thing every time. You don't know what you're talking about. It sounds more like you've heard of IdrA and how he does things from other people, rather than actually pay attention to what he does or says. | ||
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Razvy
United States132 Posts
On May 12 2011 12:44 Horse...falcon wrote: MYMDay[9]? EGDay[9]? LiquidDay[9]? DignitasDay[9]? FnaticDay[9]? ROOTDay[9]? FXODay[9]? DuckloadDay[9]? or Duckload[9]? MouzDay[9]? EmpireDay[9]? GrubbyDay[9]? bets! sixjax.day9 | ||
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ondik
Czech Republic2908 Posts
On May 17 2011 23:01 ArhK wrote: - I don't see the problem with stating Terran is the weakest race, when 4/5 top world player are Terran. It is such a small sample, you can't deduce anything from it. Maybe those 4 players are such hardworking and talented that they overcome the "weakness" of their race. You can't say anything about balance when taking the top 5 or even top 10 worldwide player, and trying to deduce any balance intelligence... ....must....not......rage...... do you even know what game are you talking about? The sample size argument is usually funny, but here it's just ridiculous. | ||
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nihlon
Sweden5581 Posts
IM.Day[9] | ||
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drop271
New Zealand286 Posts
Look at it again/re-listen: Idra argued: 1) Zerg has few scouting options, so can't accurately scout the opponent's build 2) Zerg can't counter all builds with a basic openning >> Therefore, a better Zerg player can still lose to Build Order losses. Day9 argued: a) Its too early in the game's development to be sure that 1) and 2) are true. >> Therefore, Idra can't prove his conclusion. Logically, the fact that Idra, as brilliant as he is (I don't mean that sarcastically), can't find better 'tells', or figure out a more solid opening, doesn't mean that one doesn't exist. Idra is arguing that the game is broken, so the burden of proof lies on him to prove it is broken. Idra's attempt to prove 1) and 2) was basically 'well you tell me how to do it'. That's not a valid argument. I'm sure anyone can see that Day9 lost nothing. He didn't argue his point well, granted, but that doesn't mean he's wrong ffs. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States46705 Posts
SlayerSDay[9]  | ||
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
On May 17 2011 23:38 drop271 wrote: I'm surprised this discussion is still going on. Day9 didn't 'lose' the argument. Look at it again/re-listen: Idra argued: 1) Zerg has few scouting options, so can't accurately scout the opponent's build 2) Zerg can't counter all builds with a basic openning >> Therefore, a better Zerg player can still lose to Build Order losses. Day9 argued: a) Its too early in the game's development to be sure that 1) and 2) are true. >> Therefore, Idra can't prove his conclusion. Logically, the fact that Idra, as brilliant as he is (I don't mean that sarcastically), can't find better 'tells', or figure out a more solid opening, doesn't mean that one doesn't exist. Idra is arguing that the game is broken, so the burden of proof lies on him to prove it is broken. Idra's attempt to prove 1) and 2) was basically 'well you tell me how to do it'. That's not a valid argument. I'm sure anyone can see that Day9 lost nothing. He didn't argue his point well, granted, but that doesn't mean he's wrong ffs. In defense of IdrA, his proof was basically "Zerglings can't get by a wall-in. Overlords can't get by a marine. It requires almost no investment to completely deny scouting from Zerg." I don't think there's any doubt that #1 is true, honestly. The question is whether or not Zerg can react in time to something unexpected, or how zerg can have a semi-strong all-purpose defense and react more slightly to something unscouted. The idea is that different all-ins can outright kill the Zerg instead of gain an advantage if Zerg chooses wrong. I'm honestly not sure and don't think I've played nearly enough to gauge either way. | ||
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ArhK
France287 Posts
On May 17 2011 23:11 Ineffability~ wrote: Well sir, if it is achievable by someone, DOES MEAN the problem is in the players not the race its self see? If he says something like terran was the HARDEST to play, okay I can't argue his meaning, but when people have proven that it's doable, don't see how can you argument against something like that. It's like stating it's not possible to run 100 meters in 5 seconds lets say, and then 4 people go and do it, this means its doable but requires dedication. Creativity has everything to do with you bitching about balance when you as I said are using 70% of your arsenal. Again example you play chess with the white figures and you remove your bishops and rooks and then stating, well the black pieces are overpowered. He maybe started trying something out, but he hasn't spent the last 5 months of 12 hours per day playing trying out new stuff rather than refining what he already has, and he states what he has doesn't work. ...sigh, your answer is not worth arguing for to be honest, you are just rambling out loud without thinking for a second. When people has proven something is doable DOESN'T show AT ALL that a race is balanced. Stop switching context, your examples are so full of flaws; "X Race is the weakest" can only be qualified as a true or wrong statement by looking at the numbers. Top 5 worldwide doesn't mean AT ALL that the race is the strongest, of the weakest. Look under what a sample means please.... Idra argued successfully against Day9 regarding the paradigm of the game, it was far from being "bitching about balance", he took several minutes explaining his point, and Day9 didn't had anything to answer to him. I love day9 and follow every single of his dailies, but that is a fact. It is funny how many players says "Zerg do the same thing all the time, try something out", yet don't have a single clue regarding the precise problem of the scouting early game against terran. Not a SINGLE CLUE, when the terran is walled in, and patrol marines around the perimeter of his base (excessively simple on XNC for example....). On a complete different topic, does anyone knows how to download the Dailies from the new version of the blip website ? I don't find a direct link to the video. In the previous version of blip.tv it was at the very bottom of the episode webpage...  | ||
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ArhK
France287 Posts
On May 17 2011 23:32 ondik wrote: ....must....not......rage...... do you even know what game are you talking about? The sample size argument is usually funny, but here it's just ridiculous. Well, feel free to enlight my day with your knowledge sir, I am listening. | ||
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drop271
New Zealand286 Posts
On May 17 2011 23:50 DoubleReed wrote: In defense of IdrA, his proof was basically "Zerglings can't get by a wall-in. Overlords can't get by a marine. It requires almost no investment to completely deny scouting from Zerg." I don't think there's any doubt that #1 is true, honestly. The question is whether or not Zerg can react in time to something unexpected, or how zerg can have a semi-strong all-purpose defense and react more slightly to something unscouted. The idea is that different all-ins can outright kill the Zerg instead of gain an advantage if Zerg chooses wrong. I'm honestly not sure and don't think I've played nearly enough to gauge either way. I think you can doubt Idra's proof. Maybe there are ways to scout, maybe there are ways a zerg player can get two overlords quicker to get into a base. Maybe a combination of lings poking and an overlord at the back can scout the marine count and the build. I don't know, but I don't have to know to be able to say that Idra's hasn't conclusively proved that you can't scout. Regardless, it still doesn't prove that that limited information isn't enough for an adequate counter. I'm not arguing this point aggressively, since you are clearly generous enough to equally accept that its yet to be proven. But for other people reading, can we please stop blindly saying that 'Idra owned Day9, and I respect him less for it' edit: and in saying that, likewise in defense of Idra, he clearly has tried and has mind bogglingly more knowledge on this than any of us. He certainly wasn't being rude to argue his point. I just personally think he should have stopped at the point of saying 'currently these are the issues a pro zerg player faces, and we're yet to find an answer. Until we do its tough going for us, and I hope we do soon' | ||
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artanis2
United States732 Posts
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TheSaddestPanda
United States61 Posts
On May 17 2011 22:10 -_-Quails wrote: Wouldn't it make more sense to work in terms of production cycles? yknow, it just might work better like that. The main focus would be to swap your stuff up a lot and see what happens | ||
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neobowman
Canada3324 Posts
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