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On September 15 2010 13:42 SugarBear wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 13:09 Jman5 wrote:
I'm a little bit confused about why day[9] and the zerg player we watched today has so much trouble vs that fast banshee. Assuming you scout properly, can't you just get an evo chamber + spore colony on your mineral line?
It seems like a good investment when the alternative is you may lose a queen and a whole bunch of drones.
Maybe someone here can explain it to me, because it seems kind of like a no-brainer to me. Banshees have ridiculous range so it's impossible to cover every angle with a single spore crawlers. As day9 said you would have to basically cover your base with them to stop a banshee harass.
Isn't the important thing your mineral/gas line and maybe a spire if you're getting one? I mean I was just looking at this just now. If you plop one down in the middle of the mineral line, it seems to cover that area fine. You know what I'm talking about where there is that gap in the minerals in the middle? Aside from creep tumors, why does zerg have to spread out his stuff at all?
And if its money that's a concern, banshee is 60 seconds and cloak is 110 seconds. evo chamber is 35 seconds and spore colony is 30 seconds. So you could hold off on building one until you scout that tech lab out it seems.
I'm just a terran player so I may be off, but I place my missile turret in the middle of the mineral line and it works fine for me (without the upgrade).
Edit: Banshee only has 6 range vs spore colony and queen's 7 range. It seems to me that as long as the spore colony is detecting them, that their combined might should be able to deal with any banshee harrass with ease.
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On September 15 2010 13:57 Jman5 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 13:42 SugarBear wrote:On September 15 2010 13:09 Jman5 wrote:
I'm a little bit confused about why day[9] and the zerg player we watched today has so much trouble vs that fast banshee. Assuming you scout properly, can't you just get an evo chamber + spore colony on your mineral line?
It seems like a good investment when the alternative is you may lose a queen and a whole bunch of drones.
Maybe someone here can explain it to me, because it seems kind of like a no-brainer to me. Banshees have ridiculous range so it's impossible to cover every angle with a single spore crawlers. As day9 said you would have to basically cover your base with them to stop a banshee harass. Isn't the important thing your mineral/gas line and maybe a spire if you're getting one? I mean I was just looking at this just now. If you plop one down in the middle of the mineral line, it seems to cover that area fine. You know what I'm talking about where there is that gap in the minerals in the middle? Aside from creep tumors, why does zerg have to spread out his stuff at all? And if its money that's a concern, banshee is 60 seconds and cloak is 110 seconds. evo chamber is 35 seconds and spore colony is 30 seconds. So you could hold off on building one until you scout that tech lab out it seems. I'm just a terran player so I may be off, but I place my missile turret in the middle of the mineral line and it works fine for me (without the upgrade). Edit: Banshee only has 6 range vs spore colony and queen's 7 range. It seems to me that as long as the spore colony is detecting them, that their combined might should be able to deal with any banshee harrass with ease.
If you put a spore colong in your mineral line he can swing around and pick off your hatchery. If your tech buildings aren't in your mineral line next to your spore colony he can snipe those. If you take gas with extractors he can pick those off. If you put the colony in the middle he can pick your workers off from the edges. If you put it on one side he can pick off workers from the other. As you said, spores and queens only outrange banshees by 1, so basically anything that is not right on top of the spore crawlers or fenced in by multiple spores is open to be picked off.
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Hey Day9 Just wanted to say thanks for sharpening the tools I have to evaluate myself and improve my game. Already up to platinum. Feel like I know what's going on now I just have to get used to the hyperactive mindset required to play this game!
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I need to test this out with someone because it feels to me that if the zerg builds his base correctly, that one spore colony and a queen per mineral line is all you need to stop that banshee harrass timing.
Day[9] was talking about how players often over-react and over-analyze certain builds like reapers when the solution can be to just calmly and simply deal with it. This strikes me as one of those situations. Say banshee starts hitting something just outside the range of that spore colony. Well just shift the queen over slightly and engage it. Then if they attack the queen, they move in slightly and the spore colony is now in range. Or the queen moves back slightly.
You see a lot of strategies taking advantage of +1 range advantage. I don't see how this is any different really.
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Scotland380 Posts
9/14 Day[9] Daily #0179 Starcraft 2 Watch me Learn ZvT (Blip.tv)
9/13 Day[9] Daily #0178 Starcraft 2 Socke vs Bratok PvT (Blip.tv)
9/12 Day[9] Daily #0177 Starcraft 2 Simple Winning Techniques (Blip.tv)
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I've had a weird observation in the last daily. It seems that the zerg race at this point in time is purely reactive against terran. Is there a strategy that zerg can just go for and by that forcing T to react ? It seems there should be..
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On September 16 2010 01:36 Talic_Zealot wrote:
I've had a weird observation in the last daily. It seems that the zerg race at this point in time is purely reactive against terran. Is there a build that zerg can just go for and by that forcing T to react ? It seems there should be..
I just think it's that Terran starts with the initiative. Certainly you can force him to a particular army composition by what you choose to tech to. Namely Broodlords, Mutas, and Roaches are probably the things that would more greatly affect their strategy depending on what they had planned. Blings also force a more mech/marauder heavy comp, etc, etc.
You can make T have to respond to you, but the issue is at the start of the game T holds initiative and you have to react first.
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106 Posts
On September 16 2010 01:36 Talic_Zealot wrote:
I've had a weird observation in the last daily. It seems that the zerg race at this point in time is purely reactive against terran. Is there a build that zerg can just go for and by that forcing T to react ? It seems there should be..
yeah i was watching the daily a few minutes ago and it seemed that even day9 couldnt figure out how to deal with terran as a zerg. time will tell 
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United Arab Emirates7 Posts
On September 15 2010 14:19 SugarBear wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 13:57 Jman5 wrote:On September 15 2010 13:42 SugarBear wrote:On September 15 2010 13:09 Jman5 wrote:
I'm a little bit confused about why day[9] and the zerg player we watched today has so much trouble vs that fast banshee. Assuming you scout properly, can't you just get an evo chamber + spore colony on your mineral line?
It seems like a good investment when the alternative is you may lose a queen and a whole bunch of drones.
Maybe someone here can explain it to me, because it seems kind of like a no-brainer to me. Banshees have ridiculous range so it's impossible to cover every angle with a single spore crawlers. As day9 said you would have to basically cover your base with them to stop a banshee harass. Isn't the important thing your mineral/gas line and maybe a spire if you're getting one? I mean I was just looking at this just now. If you plop one down in the middle of the mineral line, it seems to cover that area fine. You know what I'm talking about where there is that gap in the minerals in the middle? Aside from creep tumors, why does zerg have to spread out his stuff at all? And if its money that's a concern, banshee is 60 seconds and cloak is 110 seconds. evo chamber is 35 seconds and spore colony is 30 seconds. So you could hold off on building one until you scout that tech lab out it seems. I'm just a terran player so I may be off, but I place my missile turret in the middle of the mineral line and it works fine for me (without the upgrade). Edit: Banshee only has 6 range vs spore colony and queen's 7 range. It seems to me that as long as the spore colony is detecting them, that their combined might should be able to deal with any banshee harrass with ease. If you put a spore colong in your mineral line he can swing around and pick off your hatchery. If your tech buildings aren't in your mineral line next to your spore colony he can snipe those. If you take gas with extractors he can pick those off. If you put the colony in the middle he can pick your workers off from the edges. If you put it on one side he can pick off workers from the other. As you said, spores and queens only outrange banshees by 1, so basically anything that is not right on top of the spore crawlers or fenced in by multiple spores is open to be picked off.
This is exactly the discussion I was hoping to find after watching the daily today.
I do understand that, under most circumstances, it is not feasible to defend your whole base with static defense. However, the threat of a banshee killing your hatch is pretty low. The ramifications of having an extractor picked off is much less than losing a large number of drones. And we're talking worst case scenario. It takes quite a while to kill of an extractor or a stray building; there should be plenty of time to bring in a couple units to defend. A queen will die to a detected banshee head-to-head, and replacing that queen is the same cost as the spore. At least it gives her a place to fall back to if she's about to die. Also, factor in the opportunity cost of losing a queen.
Also, how valuable is that piece of mind? If air harassment is something that is going to force you to play scared, then I would argue that that is going to be more detrimental to your game play than spending the 150 minerals. Static D isn't a long term solution, but it buys a lot of time.
Admittedly, I'm not a very good player. I just have yet to hear an explanation for the aversion to static D that resonates. Something could be going over my head though.....
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On September 16 2010 03:23 Balk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 14:19 SugarBear wrote:On September 15 2010 13:57 Jman5 wrote:On September 15 2010 13:42 SugarBear wrote:On September 15 2010 13:09 Jman5 wrote:
I'm a little bit confused about why day[9] and the zerg player we watched today has so much trouble vs that fast banshee. Assuming you scout properly, can't you just get an evo chamber + spore colony on your mineral line?
It seems like a good investment when the alternative is you may lose a queen and a whole bunch of drones.
Maybe someone here can explain it to me, because it seems kind of like a no-brainer to me. Banshees have ridiculous range so it's impossible to cover every angle with a single spore crawlers. As day9 said you would have to basically cover your base with them to stop a banshee harass. Isn't the important thing your mineral/gas line and maybe a spire if you're getting one? I mean I was just looking at this just now. If you plop one down in the middle of the mineral line, it seems to cover that area fine. You know what I'm talking about where there is that gap in the minerals in the middle? Aside from creep tumors, why does zerg have to spread out his stuff at all? And if its money that's a concern, banshee is 60 seconds and cloak is 110 seconds. evo chamber is 35 seconds and spore colony is 30 seconds. So you could hold off on building one until you scout that tech lab out it seems. I'm just a terran player so I may be off, but I place my missile turret in the middle of the mineral line and it works fine for me (without the upgrade). Edit: Banshee only has 6 range vs spore colony and queen's 7 range. It seems to me that as long as the spore colony is detecting them, that their combined might should be able to deal with any banshee harrass with ease. If you put a spore colong in your mineral line he can swing around and pick off your hatchery. If your tech buildings aren't in your mineral line next to your spore colony he can snipe those. If you take gas with extractors he can pick those off. If you put the colony in the middle he can pick your workers off from the edges. If you put it on one side he can pick off workers from the other. As you said, spores and queens only outrange banshees by 1, so basically anything that is not right on top of the spore crawlers or fenced in by multiple spores is open to be picked off. This is exactly the discussion I was hoping to find after watching the daily today. I do understand that, under most circumstances, it is not feasible to defend your whole base with static defense. However, the threat of a banshee killing your hatch is pretty low. The ramifications of having an extractor picked off is much less than losing a large number of drones. And we're talking worst case scenario. It takes quite a while to kill of an extractor or a stray building; there should be plenty of time to bring in a couple units to defend. A queen will die to a detected banshee head-to-head, and replacing that queen is the same cost as the spore. At least it gives her a place to fall back to if she's about to die. Also, factor in the opportunity cost of losing a queen. Also, how valuable is that piece of mind? If air harassment is something that is going to force you to play scared, then I would argue that that is going to be more detrimental to your game play than spending the 150 minerals. Static D isn't a long term solution, but it buys a lot of time. Admittedly, I'm not a very good player. I just have yet to hear an explanation for the aversion to static D that resonates. Something could be going over my head though.....
Compare the cost and value of three spore colonies too increasing hydralisk composition. Or how Dimaga deals with air... build more queens. I watched a game against Huk and Dimaga had 6 queens on two bases to prevent phoenix. I thought that was a quick and dirty solution. It also helped his late game out potentially since he was going for Ultras late the mass number of possible heals was swell.
If you look at it from a pure value perspective queens cost the same supply and don't cost any gas at all. The fact that multiple queens together can heal each other provides significant beef to the ground defense.
I personally have not used a ton of queens to defend air harass yet but after having seen dimaga do it in that manner I'm excited about it.
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Hey Day[9],
Just thought I'd make a little post requesting you turn some of your casts into podcasts, purely for audio. I know some of the casts' strength will be lost without the video, but it'd be awesome to listen to your sultry voice when I'm on the bus or train and can't watch the video. Seriously though, sports can be broadcasted over the radio, I think Sc2 could too. And the basics of the game and what you're trying to get across would see make it. What do you think? Chances are you won't read this, but I thought I'd give it a try.
hobz
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I think throwing a Spore down in a mineral line is always worth it. You don't need to cover your whole base, just your drones while you mobilize a response. Not only can it save you against a banshee, but it completely shuts down Pheonixes and can save your butt against DTs as well.
Edit: Typo
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United Arab Emirates7 Posts
On September 16 2010 03:29 Grachuus wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 03:23 Balk wrote:On September 15 2010 14:19 SugarBear wrote:On September 15 2010 13:57 Jman5 wrote:On September 15 2010 13:42 SugarBear wrote:On September 15 2010 13:09 Jman5 wrote:
I'm a little bit confused about why day[9] and the zerg player we watched today has so much trouble vs that fast banshee. Assuming you scout properly, can't you just get an evo chamber + spore colony on your mineral line?
It seems like a good investment when the alternative is you may lose a queen and a whole bunch of drones.
Maybe someone here can explain it to me, because it seems kind of like a no-brainer to me. Banshees have ridiculous range so it's impossible to cover every angle with a single spore crawlers. As day9 said you would have to basically cover your base with them to stop a banshee harass. Isn't the important thing your mineral/gas line and maybe a spire if you're getting one? I mean I was just looking at this just now. If you plop one down in the middle of the mineral line, it seems to cover that area fine. You know what I'm talking about where there is that gap in the minerals in the middle? Aside from creep tumors, why does zerg have to spread out his stuff at all? And if its money that's a concern, banshee is 60 seconds and cloak is 110 seconds. evo chamber is 35 seconds and spore colony is 30 seconds. So you could hold off on building one until you scout that tech lab out it seems. I'm just a terran player so I may be off, but I place my missile turret in the middle of the mineral line and it works fine for me (without the upgrade). Edit: Banshee only has 6 range vs spore colony and queen's 7 range. It seems to me that as long as the spore colony is detecting them, that their combined might should be able to deal with any banshee harrass with ease. If you put a spore colong in your mineral line he can swing around and pick off your hatchery. If your tech buildings aren't in your mineral line next to your spore colony he can snipe those. If you take gas with extractors he can pick those off. If you put the colony in the middle he can pick your workers off from the edges. If you put it on one side he can pick off workers from the other. As you said, spores and queens only outrange banshees by 1, so basically anything that is not right on top of the spore crawlers or fenced in by multiple spores is open to be picked off. This is exactly the discussion I was hoping to find after watching the daily today. I do understand that, under most circumstances, it is not feasible to defend your whole base with static defense. However, the threat of a banshee killing your hatch is pretty low. The ramifications of having an extractor picked off is much less than losing a large number of drones. And we're talking worst case scenario. It takes quite a while to kill of an extractor or a stray building; there should be plenty of time to bring in a couple units to defend. A queen will die to a detected banshee head-to-head, and replacing that queen is the same cost as the spore. At least it gives her a place to fall back to if she's about to die. Also, factor in the opportunity cost of losing a queen. Also, how valuable is that piece of mind? If air harassment is something that is going to force you to play scared, then I would argue that that is going to be more detrimental to your game play than spending the 150 minerals. Static D isn't a long term solution, but it buys a lot of time. Admittedly, I'm not a very good player. I just have yet to hear an explanation for the aversion to static D that resonates. Something could be going over my head though..... Compare the cost and value of three spore colonies too increasing hydralisk composition. Or how Dimaga deals with air... build more queens. I watched a game against Huk and Dimaga had 6 queens on two bases to prevent phoenix. I thought that was a quick and dirty solution. It also helped his late game out potentially since he was going for Ultras late the mass number of possible heals was swell. If you look at it from a pure value perspective queens cost the same supply and don't cost any gas at all. The fact that multiple queens together can heal each other provides significant beef to the ground defense. I personally have not used a ton of queens to defend air harass yet but after having seen dimaga do it in that manner I'm excited about it.
I do agree that a queen provides more overall value/utility than a spore colony. But regarding banshees specifically, an overseer is also required, and personally, at that stage in the game, I tend to find myself lighter on gas, and heavier on minerals.
Lets say that you're in the dark due to denied scouting, hidden tech, or whatever. If you're paranoid about a banshee, you'll rush to lair, morph an overseer, and get an extra queen. Why not invest in a spore and continue with what feels comfortable? Of course you're going to do all of those thing anyway at some point, but why not do it when it clicks rather than being forced; that banshee may never come, and spending that 100 gas that early on a might-happen seems like it would be more detrimental than throwing down a spore and carrying on business as usual.
Lets also say there's an 8 marine drop. His marines should be auto attacking the spore until the drop ship is driven off, buying you a bit of time to react, and run off your drones. Personally, my apm is average, so I like having buffers like this. Maybe that's why I'm having a hard time understanding this because I'm looking at it from the perspective of what works for me rather than what's ideal.
Just to clarify, I'm not talking about spamming static D. Just one spore in each mineral line.
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I thought yesterday's ZvT daily was *hilarious*. Maybe it's just me, but I was watching Day9's face as replay after replay played out of Zergs he had picked out flailing around trying to guess what the Terran was up to and getting sturdily hosed, and it just looked like he was thinking "What the fuck do I say about this?"
I mean, ok, it was a small sample size, so it could easily have been random chance playing silly buggers with him, but he couldn't exactly sit there and say that. And he's too committed (and rightly so) to the notion of self-improvement as a gamer to take it at face value and say "Huh. Zerg is screwed." I thought he handled it as well as possible, under the circumstances, but it was exquisitely uncomfortable to watch.
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[
Just to clarify, I'm not talking about spamming static D. Just one spore in each mineral line.
The issue is that as others have pointed out it's highly exploitable. the Banshees can just float right outside of the detection area and shoot workers or buildings. Spore colony has 1 more range than a banshee, right? That means anything more than 1 space away from the colony is vulnerable. An overseer and queens provide you a legitimate defensive strategy.
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On September 16 2010 05:24 Grachuus wrote:Show nested quote +[
Just to clarify, I'm not talking about spamming static D. Just one spore in each mineral line.
The issue is that as others have pointed out it's highly exploitable. the Banshees can just float right outside of the detection area and shoot workers or buildings. Spore colony has 1 more range than a banshee, right? That means anything more than 1 space away from the colony is vulnerable. An overseer and queens provide you a legitimate defensive strategy.
Spore colonies have a sight/detection range of 11. That should be enough to cover the gas and hatch as well as buildings placed behind the minerals if you have additional queens.
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As far as i can tell seeing those games the fast infestation pit vs Terran was a total fail both games. Both games he tried to harass with them and lost them all while killing like 7 scvs. Also note that the first game on Meta was more like a "fun" game as cooler went mass infestor and the T did mass Raven.
It seems like infestors shine in little numbers just to get 1 or 2 important fungals. They are too expensive for risky harassing and if you get them right when your lair finishes you are kinda committed to them for a good amount of time. But thats just my experience though.
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On September 14 2010 02:09 Day[9] wrote:
Someone else was theoretically taking care of 170! I'm not sure WHERE IT WENT BUT I AM RAGING WARBLE WARBLE WARBLE. Gonna rehound onem!
Hate to sound ungrateful and ask for this when you keep producing so much new (and awesome) content, but any updates?
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These are excellent thanks.
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[url=http://imgur.com/rrrj0][img]http://imgur.com/EphpP.png[/url][/img]
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EPT
