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On February 25 2013 03:03 nomyx wrote:
I would rather let the pro players figure stuff out and let the game evolve naturally as opposed to having another reaper incident.
Personally I agree. I still think the viper is too underused to really see how the game plays out, but with Blizzard in the habit of nerfing things every week now in a rush to achieve balance, I thought it was worth bringing up the issue. I'd rather see a slight buff to a unit from any of the races than a nerf to the units as they are now.
Someone on Battle.net posted an idea in the thread I made on there. If the buff goes through to affect air units, only cut ranged units in half, instead of to 1. That would make viking range 4.5 instead of 9, which isn't THAT bad. Chances are you'd still get a shot off on corruptors who are still going to try and get as close up as possible, and then you'd micro out of it. On the other hand, VR range would be 3 (+1) which would definitely allow corruptors or something to be more useful.
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On February 25 2013 07:52 FlyingBeer wrote:
Wow, seriously!? This thread has a full page of comments and nobody's stated the obvious problem with all of this? Let me put this in bold, all-caps type then.
BLINDING CLOUD ALREADY AFFECTS AIR UNITS!!!
/end thread
drunk?
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Make Blinding Cloud affect air units, but instead of reducing range to 0, make it do -6 to range. Then it would be just as good against bio units, stalkers, void rays, etc, but the high range units such as Tempests, Tanks, and Thors would retain some usefulness.
And give hydras a HP upgrade at hive tech.
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On February 25 2013 04:17 Alryk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2013 03:03 nomyx wrote:
I would rather let the pro players figure stuff out and let the game evolve naturally as opposed to having another reaper incident. Personally I agree. I still think the viper is too underused to really see how the game plays out, but with Blizzard in the habit of nerfing things every week now in a rush to achieve balance, I thought it was worth bringing up the issue. I'd rather see a slight buff to a unit from any of the races than a nerf to the units as they are now. Someone on Battle.net posted an idea in the thread I made on there. If the buff goes through to affect air units, only cut ranged units in half, instead of to 1. That would make viking range 4.5 instead of 9, which isn't THAT bad. Chances are you'd still get a shot off on corruptors who are still going to try and get as close up as possible, and then you'd micro out of it. On the other hand, VR range would be 3 (+1) which would definitely allow corruptors or something to be more useful.
Problem is that flying units clump even more than ground units, so if you land 1 good fungal and then cast cloud on them, the whole flying army is not only dead, but also won't be able to attack and try to trade decently. Especially with chain-fungal.
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On February 24 2013 20:37 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2013 19:50 Decendos wrote:On February 24 2013 19:41 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:
It would totally break TvZ. If the cloud affects ground, air and casters, is there something left ? It already shuts down ground mech, if on top of that it works against air and prevents pdd/hsm/medivac healing/yamato, the game is over. And it would allow mass broodlords all over again.
Fixing the ZvP skytoss problem through a spell is a bad fix. If skytoss is too powerful, nerf it or buff zerg AA. exactly this! zerg finally needs good UNITS and not another spellcaster to compensate for shitty units. just buff the units itself. so just buff hydras straight up and change corruption or give corrupter a 2nd spell, whatever. its not only skytoss + HT thats unbeatable. its also mutas in ZvZ or mass raven + support in ZvT thats literally unbeatable at a given time in the game which is outright stupid (see BL infestor stupidness in WoL). Zerg has good units. Just watch GSTL, Zerg can do very well in HotS at the highest level right now.
This. Violet has shown very powerful usage of vipers and hydras to break three base protosses. His timings are unorthodox but very deadly. We could all learn from this guy.
And no, viper/ultra wrecks mech at a high level. Having it affect air will heavily advantage Z when players start using fungal growth with cloud (TvZ,). Cloud at it's current state is fine. There are other issues that can be addressed without wrecking certain matchups.
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vipers should be able to attack air at least.
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On February 25 2013 07:56 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2013 07:52 FlyingBeer wrote:
Wow, seriously!? This thread has a full page of comments and nobody's stated the obvious problem with all of this? Let me put this in bold, all-caps type then.
BLINDING CLOUD ALREADY AFFECTS AIR UNITS!!!
/end thread drunk?
...hehehe
I think halving unit range in the air would be a good change, IF they do anything. I don't think fungals would be that big of an issue as they are in WoL - you'd still have the same issue with HT being able to feedback, and tempests would probably be very effective against the infestor. I haven't seen them much in lategame though - it seems like an army with too many vipers and infestors would be weak against a mobile ground army (wouldn't have enough hydralisks).
That said, I hope Blizzard watches GSTL tonight. With ViOlet, Ragnarok, Byul, and Seed, San, and Genius, there is a lot of potential for good PvZ games.
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I was wondering a long time why zerg did not have anything vs casters, in BW there was the queen at least.
Blinding cloud vs air seems very broken. but blinding cloud deactivating abilities could be fine, I have always been voting for a fungal change so that it prevents more abilities, but that migth actually work better with blinding cloud.
Not such a bad idea.
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As i proposed in a similar thread i think overlords should get a hive upgrade to be able to morph into "air-banelings". You suicide them for anti-air splash damage and lose 8 supply and 100m plus morphing price. Would lead to micro wars and requires toss air to spread, so its a huge anti deathball unit
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No.
A buff to Hydra/Corruptor would be better to give better AA for zergs.
Currently,Viper isn't good against Skytoss.
It is not they are underused but they are useless against it.
Cloud does nothing against air units.
You won't be able to land an abduct because of feedback and MS core 14 sight.
Viper is more frequently used in ZvT.
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I would rather see a buff to the corruptor to be honest. Blizzard has been talking for years now that they want to do something with the Corruptor to make it more interesting to use but it's still the exact same unit since release. The unit has officially gone from Zergs go to AA unit to "only get this unit if the enemy gets massive units". Oh and by the time Protoss starts getting those tempests and carriers, he'll have a good 6-8 void rays ready to shred your corruptors. Phoenix soft counter them now too.
Blizzard has gone from trying to make the Corruptor interesting to now making it as niche as the Reaper was in WoL.
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On February 25 2013 08:13 Novacute wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2013 20:37 Big J wrote:On February 24 2013 19:50 Decendos wrote:On February 24 2013 19:41 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:
It would totally break TvZ. If the cloud affects ground, air and casters, is there something left ? It already shuts down ground mech, if on top of that it works against air and prevents pdd/hsm/medivac healing/yamato, the game is over. And it would allow mass broodlords all over again.
Fixing the ZvP skytoss problem through a spell is a bad fix. If skytoss is too powerful, nerf it or buff zerg AA. exactly this! zerg finally needs good UNITS and not another spellcaster to compensate for shitty units. just buff the units itself. so just buff hydras straight up and change corruption or give corrupter a 2nd spell, whatever. its not only skytoss + HT thats unbeatable. its also mutas in ZvZ or mass raven + support in ZvT thats literally unbeatable at a given time in the game which is outright stupid (see BL infestor stupidness in WoL). Zerg has good units. Just watch GSTL, Zerg can do very well in HotS at the highest level right now. This. Violet has shown very powerful usage of vipers and hydras to break three base protosses . His timings are unorthodox but very deadly. We could all learn from this guy. And no, viper/ultra wrecks mech at a high level. Having it affect air will heavily advantage Z when players start using fungal growth with cloud (TvZ,). Cloud at it's current state is fine. There are other issues that can be addressed without wrecking certain matchups.
There are orthodox timings in HotS? I though we all had no idea what we were doing?
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On February 26 2013 00:29 FakeDeath wrote:
No.
A buff to Hydra/Corruptor would be better to give better AA for zergs.
Currently,Viper isn't good against Skytoss.
It is not they are underused but they are useless against it.
Cloud does nothing against air units.
You won't be able to land an abduct because of feedback and MS core 14 sight.
Viper is more frequently used in ZvT.
Well that's why I was talking about cloud affecting air units? Haha. That's kind of the point of the thread - to give it some utility. I already went through everything you just said. The point would be to either make the viper more effective against air units, or give it the ability to zone out templar which would allow for abduct, seeing as templar are slow.
I agree with what you said... that's why I made the thread.
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EPT
