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Hey guys, pretty simple change in mind. Speaking from the mind of a high masters protoss, I was thinking about how the skytoss composition synergizes overall and why it's exactly supposed to be so strong.
Tempests/Templar combine, along with VR or Carriers in general. The tempests just pick away, while VR/Carriers protect from air based units like the corruptor, and templar protect from low health, high damage units like the hydralisk. It makes PvZ lategame kind of a dance between vipers, corruptors, swarm hosts, and hydras. The templar keep the ground based army at bay, while the VR and carriers protect the tempest from units like the viper so they can do their job.
I don't think skytoss needs a nerf to fix it - it isn't very great against Terran bio, and personally trades pretty well with a properly done terran sky army. However, the units do fit together really well, especially versus zerg.
As a potential change, would it make sense to buff Vipers blinding cloud to affect either air units or spellcasters (or both)? It seems like a good, definitely not ridiculous change that could really help out. You can zone out groups of Void rays etc. and if the Void rays move forward, then the HT can't protect as easily from hydras. If they try to retreat, Vipers can abduct into those hydras. At the same time, it's the kind of ability that allows a good protoss player to micro out of the way - through splits, and simple moving around.
It would turn the lategame more into a "dance" if you will of vipers against VR/Carrier, which open the way for corruptors to move forward to take out tempests etc. As is the protoss units protect each other a little too well versus the tools that zerg has, but I think an additional ability to zerg could give them a way to counteract it, without nerfing Skytoss.
Thoughts?
As a note: I don't profess to have the best understanding of the matchup simply because I'm masters or anything. I haven't had nearly enough games to think I know exactly what's going on, and I might have analyzed some of the units into the wrong role, but I do believe that a change like this would help quite a bit in a way that adheres to the idea of abilities that allow both players to show off their skill. While my analysis might be wrong, I think the idea is right (or in the right direction), and would be a change that wouldn't make ZvT too hard for Terran or anything.
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On February 24 2013 18:48 Alryk wrote:
As a potential change, would it make sense to buff Vipers blinding cloud to affect either air units or spellcasters (or both)? It seems like a good, definitely not ridiculous change that could really help out. You can zone out groups of Void rays etc. and if the Void rays move forward, then the HT can't protect as easily from hydras. If they try to retreat, Vipers can abduct into those hydras. At the same time, it's the kind of ability that allows a good protoss player to micro out of the way - through splits, and simple moving around.
Yeah, I've been thinking about something similar. I think it could be a good change to have them affect air, since Zerg also seems to be struggling a bit vs Terran mech, and being able to zone out Vikings might help. It could easily become too powerful, but I think it would be worth at least testing. Almost no time left to test things in the beta though, unfortunately.
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But then it would make infestor broodlord too strong all over again, at least against Terran.
Personally I think the problem lies fundermental on the game design on how powerful air units are.
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HotS totally misses a need for Zerg AoE anti air. If they put that in they could nerf/adjust infestors correctly without worrying about zvz.
I don't see this change doing much, the vipers would end up dead and the sky toss army is mobile enough to just move out of the cloud.
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One problem is that vipers become completely useless in the very late game ZvP. As soon as protoss get his big numbers of High Templars out there is no way for ur vipers to come close to his army because of feedbacks. The thing with feedbacks is that they're doing more dmg if their target has more energy... and it doesn't make sense to have a viper without energy lol.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
On February 24 2013 19:03 FLuE wrote:
HotS totally misses a need for Zerg AoE anti air. If they put that in they could nerf/adjust infestors correctly without worrying about zvz.
I don't see this change doing much, the vipers would end up dead and the sky toss army is mobile enough to just move out of the cloud.
We can't really buff the infestor again as it's in a good place right now (it's actually a support unit and you can dodge fungal). I honestly feel zerg just need better maps against skytoss since maps where everything are so close together makes it impossible for both terran and zerg to punish the skytoss by mass expanding. People complaining about zerg not being cost efficient are missing the point, the reason why they were so broken in WoL is they were too cost efficient and due to that it made it impossible to deal with the zerg remaxes as they always had a more powerful army than you and it built quicker.
Hydras are actually really good (void rays don't do bonus damage against them) so I think they're the answer, but you need to be able to mass expand to be able to remax over and over and wittle down the skytoss force (which is really hard to rebuild) and corrupters are pretty damn good against tempest/carrier. The big issue with skytoss is maybe void rays do far too much damage to the other air to air units in the game (maybe a small nerf is in order?) and it makes the other classes air to air anti air completely useless against them as it's really hard to kite them.
I'd personally rather them wait until we see it at the pro level, in an interview Ragnarok said yesterday that him and the other zergs have found a way of beating skytoss, we just need it to be shown to us.
EDIT: Watch GSTL from today, Violet vs Tear.
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On February 24 2013 19:11 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2013 19:03 FLuE wrote:
HotS totally misses a need for Zerg AoE anti air. If they put that in they could nerf/adjust infestors correctly without worrying about zvz.
I don't see this change doing much, the vipers would end up dead and the sky toss army is mobile enough to just move out of the cloud. No other race has air to air aoe do they? I realise BW had the corsair, valk and scourge, but only the thor has splash on anti air in SC2 and it's not exactly useful. We can't buff the infestor again as it's in a good place right now. I honestly feel zerg just need better maps against skytoss since maps where everything are so close together makes it impossible for both terran and zerg to punish the skytoss by mass expanding. People complaining about zerg not being cost efficient are missing the point, the reason why they were so broken in WoL is they were too cost efficient and due to that it made it impossible to deal with the zerg remaxes as they always had a more powerful army than you and it built quicker. Hydras are actually really good (void rays don't do bonus damage against them) so I think they're the answer, but you need to mass expand to get them and corrupters are pretty damn good against tempest/carrier. The big issue with skytoss is maybe void rays do far too much damage to the other air to air units in the game (maybe a small nerf is in order?) and it makes the other classes air to air anti air completely useless against them as it's really hard to kite them. I'd personally rather them wait until we see it at the pro level, in an interview Ragnarok said yesterday that him and the other zergs have found a way of beating skytoss, we just need it to be shown to us.
HSM, Thor for Terran and additionally the EMP vs Protoss.
Storm, Archon, (WoL Vortex) for Protoss.
But yeah I agree, I don't feel like there is a need for an immidiate change.
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It would make vipers really potent, but i like it. I doubt blizz will make it with several days left until the end of beta though.
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It would totally break TvZ. If the cloud affects ground, air and casters, is there something left ? It already shuts down ground mech, if on top of that it works against air and prevents pdd/hsm/medivac healing/yamato, the game is over. And it would allow mass broodlords all over again.
Fixing the ZvP skytoss problem through a spell is a bad fix. If skytoss is too powerful, nerf it or buff zerg AA.
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On February 24 2013 19:41 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:
It would totally break TvZ. If the cloud affects ground, air and casters, is there something left ? It already shuts down ground mech, if on top of that it works against air and prevents pdd/hsm/medivac healing/yamato, the game is over. And it would allow mass broodlords all over again.
Fixing the ZvP skytoss problem through a spell is a bad fix. If skytoss is too powerful, nerf it or buff zerg AA.
exactly this! zerg finally needs good UNITS and not another spellcaster to compensate for shitty units. just buff the units itself.
so just buff hydras straight up and change corruption or give corrupter a 2nd spell, whatever. its not only skytoss + HT thats unbeatable. its also mutas in ZvZ or mass raven + support in ZvT thats literally unbeatable at a given time in the game which is outright stupid (see BL infestor stupidness in WoL).
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On February 24 2013 19:50 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2013 19:41 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:
It would totally break TvZ. If the cloud affects ground, air and casters, is there something left ? It already shuts down ground mech, if on top of that it works against air and prevents pdd/hsm/medivac healing/yamato, the game is over. And it would allow mass broodlords all over again.
Fixing the ZvP skytoss problem through a spell is a bad fix. If skytoss is too powerful, nerf it or buff zerg AA. exactly this! zerg finally needs good UNITS and not another spellcaster to compensate for shitty units. just buff the units itself. so just buff hydras straight up and change corruption or give corrupter a 2nd spell, whatever. its not only skytoss + HT thats unbeatable. its also mutas in ZvZ or mass raven + support in ZvT thats literally unbeatable at a given time in the game which is outright stupid (see BL infestor stupidness in WoL).
Zerg has good units. Just watch GSTL, Zerg can do very well in HotS at the highest level right now.
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On February 24 2013 18:48 Alryk wrote:
Hey guys, pretty simple change in mind. Speaking from the mind of a high masters protoss, I was thinking about how the skytoss composition synergizes overall and why it's exactly supposed to be so strong.
Tempests/Templar combine, along with VR or Carriers in general. The tempests just pick away, while VR/Carriers protect from air based units like the corruptor, and templar protect from low health, high damage units like the hydralisk. It makes PvZ lategame kind of a dance between vipers, corruptors, swarm hosts, and hydras. The templar keep the ground based army at bay, while the VR and carriers protect the tempest from units like the viper so they can do their job.
I don't think skytoss needs a nerf to fix it - it isn't very great against Terran bio, and personally trades pretty well with a properly done terran sky army. However, the units do fit together really well, especially versus zerg.
As a potential change, would it make sense to buff Vipers blinding cloud to affect either air units or spellcasters (or both)? It seems like a good, definitely not ridiculous change that could really help out. You can zone out groups of Void rays etc. and if the Void rays move forward, then the HT can't protect as easily from hydras. If they try to retreat, Vipers can abduct into those hydras. At the same time, it's the kind of ability that allows a good protoss player to micro out of the way - through splits, and simple moving around.
It would turn the lategame more into a "dance" if you will of vipers against VR/Carrier, which open the way for corruptors to move forward to take out tempests etc. As is the protoss units protect each other a little too well versus the tools that zerg has, but I think an additional ability to zerg could give them a way to counteract it, without nerfing Skytoss.
Thoughts?
As a note: I don't profess to have the best understanding of the matchup simply because I'm masters or anything. I haven't had nearly enough games to think I know exactly what's going on, and I might have analyzed some of the units into the wrong role, but I do believe that a change like this would help quite a bit in a way that adheres to the idea of abilities that allow both players to show off their skill. While my analysis might be wrong, I think the idea is right (or in the right direction), and would be a change that wouldn't make ZvT too hard for Terran or anything.
This change would literally make any thoughts of mech succeeding in TvZ a moot discussion. The viper is already ridiculously effective against Terran mech, this would put the nail in the coffin. You also fail to acknowledge mech based compositions in PvT, against which Skytoss is very strong right now, but not nearly as powerful as PvZ.
We just got over the era of the infestor in the last few months of WoL, don't really feel that buffing the fuck out of another spellcaster at the beginning of HotS feels like the right decision. Could just be me though.
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As a Zerg player I don't want to see the Viper get any better. At the most basic of levels I hate the fact that all of the Zerg bonuses in HotS are so late in the tech tree (swarm hosts, viper, ultralisk, 2nd upgrade for hydralisk). I would much rather a buff to a Zerg mid-tier unit so we have more stability in the early game that leads through the midgame into a core late-game unit.
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On February 24 2013 20:37 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2013 19:50 Decendos wrote:On February 24 2013 19:41 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:
It would totally break TvZ. If the cloud affects ground, air and casters, is there something left ? It already shuts down ground mech, if on top of that it works against air and prevents pdd/hsm/medivac healing/yamato, the game is over. And it would allow mass broodlords all over again.
Fixing the ZvP skytoss problem through a spell is a bad fix. If skytoss is too powerful, nerf it or buff zerg AA. exactly this! zerg finally needs good UNITS and not another spellcaster to compensate for shitty units. just buff the units itself. so just buff hydras straight up and change corruption or give corrupter a 2nd spell, whatever. its not only skytoss + HT thats unbeatable. its also mutas in ZvZ or mass raven + support in ZvT thats literally unbeatable at a given time in the game which is outright stupid (see BL infestor stupidness in WoL). Zerg has good units. Just watch GSTL, Zerg can do very well in HotS at the highest level right now.
? never said zerg is UP overall. just they are insanely UP vs lategame air armies with support. and i have yet to see numerous games where P has a carrier tempest voidray HT archon army and loses. same for a mass raven army with vikings BC thor ghost. there is just no way for zerg to deal with that now that infestors got nerfed to hell and no AA unit got buffs.
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A change is needed. This might work. But I don't think it's possible without voidray nerf/hydra buff.
Also people should know that blinding cloud doen't affect casters at all.
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The Viper lifes from being able to be used in low numbers and don't forget Carriers wouldn't care about the Blinding cloud and could snipe the Vipers easily and retreat. Same goes for the Templar. And I think it affecting Spellcasters would make it way to all purpose like the Infestor was.
I am not sure if Skytoss needs a change, they are really depended on Templars. And they have nothing to protect them except the air units and their own AoE. So far I had a good success with Ultras Fungal and Neural. And afterwards cleaning them up with a muta /corrupter mix, depending on what combination they have.
I don't think the Ultra will stay ingame for long though in its current form. And you can always have some Templars in Prisms.
Though I never engage Skytoss away from creep, even if I have to bring Ovis for creep (Spores ftw). And apart from that I Nydus the hell out of them. Thanks to the need for AoE they are damn slow thanks to the Templar. Mothership core makes Nydus stuff a bit more expensive though.
At the end its really odd that mosts Zergs only response is Corrupters ! to anything that roams the air.
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I don't think a nerf to skytoss is really needed. Its strong in pvz, but not really so in pvt, especially against bio. And I did briefly mention mech pvt. Skytoss is strong there but I think enough third and the right air army can do well against it.
I didn't think the viper would really have become a unit like the investor would be with this change. And I don't mean affect spells AND air, I meant either or. If Terran is worried about Viking so much, maybe only affecting spells would work. It would probably create a contrast between both the viper/templar and even ciper/ghost.
to the guy who mentioned viper being feedbacked, that's what something like the swarm host or hydra is for, to help keep the templar at bay. I'm also not opposed to a hydra buff or something, but they're pretty decent as is. I'm not sure. But ViOlet shut down leenock pretty hard with investors last night (talking about muta zvz beng unbeatable)
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so you want to completely kill mech vs zerg because the cloud stops all mech besides hellions and now you want the one thing that can hold it a bay the vikings to be clouded (beside maybe mines that has to have luck at killing the viper ). i understand skytoss is hard but no i already spread my tanks and have turrets and the cloud still does so much damage so sorry no find something else vs skytoss
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On February 25 2013 02:39 starslayer wrote:
so you want to completely kill mech vs zerg because the cloud stops all mech besides hellions and now you want the one thing that can hold it a bay the vikings to be clouded (beside maybe mines that has to have luck at killing the viper ). i understand skytoss is hard but no i already spread my tanks and have turrets and the cloud still does so much damage so sorry no find something else vs skytoss
No actually I don't. I said I didn't think it would mess with mech much. After people mentioned the Viking, I said maybe just versus spellcasters (ground), and I'm wondering what people think about that. But instead of simply saying it would break mech TvZ like few others did in at least a slightly less aggressive tone, feel free to keep making it sound like I'm terrible for suggesting something from a protoss players point of view. Also... Read my above post, lol. Literally right above you. That's the one where I asked to see peoples opinions on additionally affecting casters, the purpose being zone out templar or even ghosts.
The post was even long enough ago that you couldn't possibly have missed it if you'd read >.<
Edit: I think you think I'm a zerg player? (your skytoss is hard comment). I play protoss  I was proposing something to help zerg without making skytoss weaker versus Terran. And apologies for spelling or grammar or formatting - I'm on my phone.
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I would rather let the pro players figure stuff out and let the game evolve naturally as opposed to having another reaper incident.
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On February 25 2013 03:03 nomyx wrote:
I would rather let the pro players figure stuff out and let the game evolve naturally as opposed to having another reaper incident.
Personally I agree. I still think the viper is too underused to really see how the game plays out, but with Blizzard in the habit of nerfing things every week now in a rush to achieve balance, I thought it was worth bringing up the issue. I'd rather see a slight buff to a unit from any of the races than a nerf to the units as they are now.
Someone on Battle.net posted an idea in the thread I made on there. If the buff goes through to affect air units, only cut ranged units in half, instead of to 1. That would make viking range 4.5 instead of 9, which isn't THAT bad. Chances are you'd still get a shot off on corruptors who are still going to try and get as close up as possible, and then you'd micro out of it. On the other hand, VR range would be 3 (+1) which would definitely allow corruptors or something to be more useful.
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On February 25 2013 07:52 FlyingBeer wrote:
Wow, seriously!? This thread has a full page of comments and nobody's stated the obvious problem with all of this? Let me put this in bold, all-caps type then.
BLINDING CLOUD ALREADY AFFECTS AIR UNITS!!!
/end thread
drunk?
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Make Blinding Cloud affect air units, but instead of reducing range to 0, make it do -6 to range. Then it would be just as good against bio units, stalkers, void rays, etc, but the high range units such as Tempests, Tanks, and Thors would retain some usefulness.
And give hydras a HP upgrade at hive tech.
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On February 25 2013 04:17 Alryk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2013 03:03 nomyx wrote:
I would rather let the pro players figure stuff out and let the game evolve naturally as opposed to having another reaper incident. Personally I agree. I still think the viper is too underused to really see how the game plays out, but with Blizzard in the habit of nerfing things every week now in a rush to achieve balance, I thought it was worth bringing up the issue. I'd rather see a slight buff to a unit from any of the races than a nerf to the units as they are now. Someone on Battle.net posted an idea in the thread I made on there. If the buff goes through to affect air units, only cut ranged units in half, instead of to 1. That would make viking range 4.5 instead of 9, which isn't THAT bad. Chances are you'd still get a shot off on corruptors who are still going to try and get as close up as possible, and then you'd micro out of it. On the other hand, VR range would be 3 (+1) which would definitely allow corruptors or something to be more useful.
Problem is that flying units clump even more than ground units, so if you land 1 good fungal and then cast cloud on them, the whole flying army is not only dead, but also won't be able to attack and try to trade decently. Especially with chain-fungal.
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On February 24 2013 20:37 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2013 19:50 Decendos wrote:On February 24 2013 19:41 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:
It would totally break TvZ. If the cloud affects ground, air and casters, is there something left ? It already shuts down ground mech, if on top of that it works against air and prevents pdd/hsm/medivac healing/yamato, the game is over. And it would allow mass broodlords all over again.
Fixing the ZvP skytoss problem through a spell is a bad fix. If skytoss is too powerful, nerf it or buff zerg AA. exactly this! zerg finally needs good UNITS and not another spellcaster to compensate for shitty units. just buff the units itself. so just buff hydras straight up and change corruption or give corrupter a 2nd spell, whatever. its not only skytoss + HT thats unbeatable. its also mutas in ZvZ or mass raven + support in ZvT thats literally unbeatable at a given time in the game which is outright stupid (see BL infestor stupidness in WoL). Zerg has good units. Just watch GSTL, Zerg can do very well in HotS at the highest level right now.
This. Violet has shown very powerful usage of vipers and hydras to break three base protosses. His timings are unorthodox but very deadly. We could all learn from this guy.
And no, viper/ultra wrecks mech at a high level. Having it affect air will heavily advantage Z when players start using fungal growth with cloud (TvZ,). Cloud at it's current state is fine. There are other issues that can be addressed without wrecking certain matchups.
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vipers should be able to attack air at least.
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On February 25 2013 07:56 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2013 07:52 FlyingBeer wrote:
Wow, seriously!? This thread has a full page of comments and nobody's stated the obvious problem with all of this? Let me put this in bold, all-caps type then.
BLINDING CLOUD ALREADY AFFECTS AIR UNITS!!!
/end thread drunk?
...hehehe
I think halving unit range in the air would be a good change, IF they do anything. I don't think fungals would be that big of an issue as they are in WoL - you'd still have the same issue with HT being able to feedback, and tempests would probably be very effective against the infestor. I haven't seen them much in lategame though - it seems like an army with too many vipers and infestors would be weak against a mobile ground army (wouldn't have enough hydralisks).
That said, I hope Blizzard watches GSTL tonight. With ViOlet, Ragnarok, Byul, and Seed, San, and Genius, there is a lot of potential for good PvZ games.
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I was wondering a long time why zerg did not have anything vs casters, in BW there was the queen at least.
Blinding cloud vs air seems very broken. but blinding cloud deactivating abilities could be fine, I have always been voting for a fungal change so that it prevents more abilities, but that migth actually work better with blinding cloud.
Not such a bad idea.
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As i proposed in a similar thread i think overlords should get a hive upgrade to be able to morph into "air-banelings". You suicide them for anti-air splash damage and lose 8 supply and 100m plus morphing price. Would lead to micro wars and requires toss air to spread, so its a huge anti deathball unit
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No.
A buff to Hydra/Corruptor would be better to give better AA for zergs.
Currently,Viper isn't good against Skytoss.
It is not they are underused but they are useless against it.
Cloud does nothing against air units.
You won't be able to land an abduct because of feedback and MS core 14 sight.
Viper is more frequently used in ZvT.
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I would rather see a buff to the corruptor to be honest. Blizzard has been talking for years now that they want to do something with the Corruptor to make it more interesting to use but it's still the exact same unit since release. The unit has officially gone from Zergs go to AA unit to "only get this unit if the enemy gets massive units". Oh and by the time Protoss starts getting those tempests and carriers, he'll have a good 6-8 void rays ready to shred your corruptors. Phoenix soft counter them now too.
Blizzard has gone from trying to make the Corruptor interesting to now making it as niche as the Reaper was in WoL.
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On February 25 2013 08:13 Novacute wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2013 20:37 Big J wrote:On February 24 2013 19:50 Decendos wrote:On February 24 2013 19:41 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:
It would totally break TvZ. If the cloud affects ground, air and casters, is there something left ? It already shuts down ground mech, if on top of that it works against air and prevents pdd/hsm/medivac healing/yamato, the game is over. And it would allow mass broodlords all over again.
Fixing the ZvP skytoss problem through a spell is a bad fix. If skytoss is too powerful, nerf it or buff zerg AA. exactly this! zerg finally needs good UNITS and not another spellcaster to compensate for shitty units. just buff the units itself. so just buff hydras straight up and change corruption or give corrupter a 2nd spell, whatever. its not only skytoss + HT thats unbeatable. its also mutas in ZvZ or mass raven + support in ZvT thats literally unbeatable at a given time in the game which is outright stupid (see BL infestor stupidness in WoL). Zerg has good units. Just watch GSTL, Zerg can do very well in HotS at the highest level right now. This. Violet has shown very powerful usage of vipers and hydras to break three base protosses . His timings are unorthodox but very deadly. We could all learn from this guy. And no, viper/ultra wrecks mech at a high level. Having it affect air will heavily advantage Z when players start using fungal growth with cloud (TvZ,). Cloud at it's current state is fine. There are other issues that can be addressed without wrecking certain matchups.
There are orthodox timings in HotS? I though we all had no idea what we were doing?
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On February 26 2013 00:29 FakeDeath wrote:
No.
A buff to Hydra/Corruptor would be better to give better AA for zergs.
Currently,Viper isn't good against Skytoss.
It is not they are underused but they are useless against it.
Cloud does nothing against air units.
You won't be able to land an abduct because of feedback and MS core 14 sight.
Viper is more frequently used in ZvT.
Well that's why I was talking about cloud affecting air units? Haha. That's kind of the point of the thread - to give it some utility. I already went through everything you just said. The point would be to either make the viper more effective against air units, or give it the ability to zone out templar which would allow for abduct, seeing as templar are slow.
I agree with what you said... that's why I made the thread.
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EPT
