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Hello!
First of all, English is not my first language, so expect a lot of grammatical errors. About me: I'm master of science (engineering) student from Finland. I'm also diamond level protoss player in WOL, and while I try my best to keep this post unbiased, please keep in mind that neither me or anybody else is. For more information about why completely unbiased views are not possible, i recommend this article by Emily Pronin.
I've read tons of posts from TL and bnet forums, and I also watch pro streams daily.
This is also my first post to Team Liquid.
What I aim to do?
I feel that Starcraft should be easy to pick up and fun to play even in lowest levels, but skill ceiling should also be high. This creates an issue where certain balance changes that are required in pro level turn the game imba in lower level. Forcefield mechanic in PvT is a good example of this. In bronze, terrans can generally a-move to win around 10 mins, as gateway units are weaker and forcefields are not used, or used very poorly. In contrast, if grandmaster protoss player catches large chuck of zerg army in FFs, there is nothing that zerg can do.
Races should be diverse. While the perfect way to balance all races would be to make all the races similar, i don't thing anybody wants that.
There should be no REALLY imba tactics. By really imba tactic I mean a tactic that always gives somebody an advantage, even with best possible counter-play.
The metagame
As the metagame is not yet developed, it's hard to propose changes. Things that seem OP now probably won't be OP in the future (like when zergs started to use infestors vs protoss deathballs). This is why I propose only changes to things where the meatagame will not probably change too much (for example TvP bio style) .
Analysis of matchups
PvT
I feel that this matchup is fairly balanced. Terran has generally two options; either go mech or bio. Protoss can go either robo or templar first, late game composition having both.
Blizzard is trying to encourage terrans to mech against protoss. Hellbat gives terran a tool against zealots, and revamped seeker missiles are viable option against clumped void-rays. Widow mine drops are generally not a game ending problem for high level protosses, as they normally get either stargate (for oracle harass) or robo in time. Window mine drop is also hard to execute for lower league players. Thors work better because they cannot be feedbacked anymore and widow mines give enough defenders advantage in early game. While hellbat drops with speed medevacs can indeed be pretty devastating, the latest patch gave sufficient nerf to this.
Terran bio style against toss is generally unchanged, except for medevac speed. I feel that drop-style play might be too cost-effective until protoss gets templars. As speeding medevacs are almost impossible to destroy without feedback, the drop damage is guaranteed. The problem is worse when doing multi-pronged drops, as there is simply not enough reaction time for opponent. Possible solutions to this would be a research peed for medevacs, giving opponent some time before the terrans has speed-medevacs or make speed-skill only usable when medevac doesn't have full cargo.
Widow mines are good way for terran to secure expansions against harass in early game, but I feel that it should be more viable in late game. Because of the long recharge time, widow mines don't effectively stop the harass. They tend to kill first units (most likely zealots), while the rest can freely start killing SCVs. Possible solution would be to make widow mines do less damage, but attack more frequently, so that they could actually clean the zealot force before they could actually destroy the expansion. Widow mines that attack more frequently would also promote opponent skill, as the reward would be higher when dealing with mines instantly.
Suggested changes:
-Medevac speed must be researched OR can use speed only when not in full cargo OR the speed ability uses energy
-Widow mine main target damage down to 80 + 35 vs shields, reload time decreased 40%
PvZ
PvZ has undergone major changes, and I've seen some really clever use of swarm hosts and vipers against protoss. The biggest influencing thing to this matchup is void ray buff, as they now really counter corruptors and roaches. This is a good thing, because it makes stargate play viable against roach pushes (in WOL, roaches could sometimes just walk under void rays and cause too much damage to protoss econ). However I feel that protoss air army is currently too strong, as tempest are rendering brood-lords unusable and void rays counter corruptors. Add storm and you have unstoppable death ball that requires no skill anymore. While the situation where the protoss player has void rays, tempest, storms etc. is not common, it does occur even in pro games. Because of infestor nerf, I feel that zerg lack powerful counter to that combination.
Infestor buff would disturb current ZvT balance so I suggest nerfs to some protoss air units and minor buff to hydra.
Suggested changes:
-Tempest damage +massive air reduced to 35
-Void ray ability cooldown period increased by 30%, creating bigger windows for zerg between engagements
-Movement speed upgrade makes hydras move ever faster on creep, adding a defenders advantage against toss air-ball.
PvZ
--TBW--
Other change suggestions
I'm not going to suggest any radical changes (such as replacing force fields etc.) because they won't most probably get implemented.
Oracle
Oracle harass vs terran is pretty much too high risk investment, as widow mine now one shots oracles and stargate play is not viable against bio. If oracle harass fails, protoss tech is most probably too late to counter the next push. Also, oracle has few to no uses in late game. Pulsar beam might be too strong, especially in lower leagues where reaction times tend to be longer.
Suggested changes:
-Pulsar beam damage reduced to 15 + 5vs light (would not two-shot SCV:s anymore)
-Revelation removed
-New ability: shield channeling: makes a group of friendly units to share shields so, that they share the damage occurred to single unit. Costs 100 to cast, duration 60seconds.
Could have cool uses in pro games. This is a powerful spell, and might be nerfed if required. Uses of this are pretty apparent, for example setting a bunch of zealots and 1 archon to share shields, then send the zealots to harass. When zealots die, archon would be at 0 shields also, but it would have time to recharge back in base.
Current balance
In order to determine the balance of the matchup, we must first determine how we want to measure it. As only publicly available information is from first HOTS beta tournaments (mostly GM / pro level), I'll summarize results here. These are statistics for few first tournaments that google found first, and is no way perfect.
To determine actual "value" for each win, we should take number of players for each race into account. For example, if there are 20 terran players but only 1 protoss player, it would be highly unlikely protoss player to win. I also expect that each player is equally skilled (not true, but good enough when we have enough statistics)
PHD_Inaugural_HotS_Beta_Tournament
Participants: 8
TOP 3:
1. T
2. Z
3. P
NVIDIA_SC2_HotS_Cup
Participants: 28
TOP 3:
1. Z
2. T
3. Z
ESET_UK_Masters_2013 invitational qualifier 1
Participants: 16
TOP 3:
1. P
2. T
3. Z
The_SHOUTcraft_Invitational / House_of_the_Swarm
TOP 3:
1. T
2. P
3. T
Conclusion:
A lot of people complain that TvP is protoss favored. In HOTS tournaments, this is not the case. If TvP is "completely protoss favored", terran pro players are far better than other races pro players.
It might be true that TvP is protoss favored in lower level (master and below), and balanced in pro / GM. As i didn't have any statistics except these tournament results, I can't verify this. If anyone can get access to some lower level stats, please PM me the link.
I try to collect more statistics and calculate individual ratios for each matchup in the weekend. If someone else wants to do it, please post here when you are done!
Good criticism
I think there is absolutely no reason for any changes like these right now.
There has not been enough testing on the balance yet you state a lot about your "feelings" which others may not share.
I feel like your post comes at a bad time. (Too late into the beta and too early into the new game for any balance complains.)
I just don't see its purpose. You state it at the start, but I don't see it being related to the following part.
-Hi! You are partly right, the timing of this post is no good. I should have posted this earlier in beta or later when metagame is stabilized and last changes have been implemented. However some things, if left intact, aren't not so much dependant about metagame. For example, speed medevac drops are going to be a problem. Metagame changes that would nullify this problem in PvT would be phoenix openings or terran styles that doesn't involve medevacs. These kind of changes are very unlikely. And I'm afraid that I use expression "I feel" because my vocabulary in English isn't too wide. What I mostly meant was "for what I've seen and read". I'll correct those when I have time.
They were played after Patch 9 maybe, but we're currently at Patch 14.
The closest we get is the MLG WC Showdowns and the GSL preseason, which results so far are:
MLG:
TvP: 1:1
PvZ: 5:2
TvZ: 2:0
GSL:
TvP: 3:4
PvZ: 1:1
TvZ: 3:2
Overall there are just not enough games yet to take them as an example, this will change soon however. When the first real tournaments have been played and the HotS GSL is running we will be able to make conclusions from the results but right now? It would take a fucking mastermind of SC to say what is balanced, what is not and what should be changed.
The best anybody right now can do is take all the available statistics and evidence and draw conclusions from there while keeping in mind that the data set is small.
--I'll continue this post later for PVP and some other changes, please comment!
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I love revelation.....PLZ NO!
I read this thread of yours, and if airplay is what u say it is, then that removes the fun
Plz dont nerf pulsar beam... i love that unit, and without revelation.... I like that spell
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are Widow mines drops hard to be executed? If you're talking of a low level bronze player I might agree but.. really.. with medivac boost everyone in the world can drop everything in a base, and in lower leagues I think that is more difficult to prevent a single drop with those fucking speedvacs.
P.S.
widow mines drop are a problem
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I think there is absolutely no reason for any changes like these right now.
There has not been enough testing on the balance yet you state a lot about your "feelings" which others may not share.
I feel like your post comes at a bad time. (Too late into the beta and too early into the new game for any balance complains.)
I just don't see its purpose. You state it at the start, but I don't see it being related to the following part.
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You defend multi pronged drops by not having your army in one big ball. If anything what it does is punish protoss that are overly defensive.
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On February 20 2013 20:41 FancYCaT wrote:
I think there is absolutely no reason for any changes like these right now.
There has not been enough testing on the balance yet you state a lot about your "feelings" which others may not share.
I feel like your post comes at a bad time. (Too late into the beta and too early into the new game for any balance complains.)
I just don't see its purpose. You state it at the start, but I don't see it being related to the following part.
Thanks for the comment! I added an section at the bottom of my initial post, and I tried to answer this. Please check it out.
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On February 20 2013 20:53 Evangelist wrote:
You defend multi pronged drops by not having your army in one big ball. If anything what it does is punish protoss that are overly defensive.
True, but I tried to leave specific tactics, habits and builds out of this. Drops are not the problem, the cost effectiveness of speed medevac is, as it allows the drop go unpunished.
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I don't think the Oracle killing scvs in two shots is to strong. Going stargate tech against a terran is a massive investment as it will significantly delay your AoE which is required if the terran is going bio. I really don't see it as any scarier than a cloakshee. Unfortunately from the streams and qualifiers I have watched terrans are still not going Mech.
I agree revelation is both too powerful and just not fun for the opposing player. It should probably be replaced.
I'm not convinced the widow mine is too powerful against protoss but the fact that it completely removes Muta play from ZvT means it needs an extensive rework/removal.
IMO
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I'm just here for anal...
Edit: And that's pretty much what I get when I face Protoss on ladder. I get it good.
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On February 20 2013 19:09 kondis wrote:
PvT
I feel that this matchup is fairly balanced.
I feel otherwise.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/r4pPd10.png)
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On February 20 2013 22:29 Grapefruit wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2013 19:09 kondis wrote:
PvT
I feel that this matchup is fairly balanced. I feel otherwise.
Check top 10 gms. Currently 7 terrans, so at the highest level terran is fairly balanced
Also TvP bio has not undergone many changes, your winrates should be similar in WOL
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Check top 10 gms. Currently 7 terrans, so at the highest level terran is fairly balanced
Also TvP bio has not undergone many changes, your winrates should be similar in WOL
Good that just 0,1% of starcraft players are representing the higehst level. For me TvP is the reason why I stoped playing Starcraft WoL and HotS at all. It is over all completely frustrating to play this matchup with zero room for mistakes and now in hots you just have to gamble the early game.
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On February 20 2013 22:29 Grapefruit wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2013 19:09 kondis wrote:
PvT
I feel that this matchup is fairly balanced. I feel otherwise.
Ridiculously small sample size. Terran has 67% win rate vs terran! Nerf terran!
..
You look at GM right now and if we want to make any sweeping generalisations then by all means Terran is currently the only race that requires clear and distinct nerfs. However I doubt we'll get any pre-HotS live launch. We'll probably go the first ladder season with the current system and then get a bunch of changes again.
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On February 20 2013 22:37 kondis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2013 22:29 Grapefruit wrote:On February 20 2013 19:09 kondis wrote:
PvT
I feel that this matchup is fairly balanced. I feel otherwise. Check top 10 gms. Currently 7 terrans, so at the highest level terran is fairly balanced Also TvP bio has not undergone many changes, your winrates should be similar in WOL
Using GM rankings as an argument for or against balance is not really the best way to go at it, I think. I don't say that you can't read any balance from it, but in the end it's more of an indicator of how much a person plays.
Saying that Bio TvP hasn't undergone many changes is a MASSIVE understatement. One of the core moments of 99% of all Bio TvP plays is the 2 Medivac Stim timing, for several reasons. First and most importantly it keeps the Protoss at home, allowing you to take your third and let your full production kick in and starting to counter the tech path of the Protoss. The problem is that with the addition of the MC Core this push doesn't really work anymore. You see, in WoL your main goal as a Terran was to get the Protoss to split up his units and then attack the "weaker" side as in if he pulls to many units into his main you stim in with your army and try to kill Sentries, Probes or other valuable things if he sits at his natural your drop your 2 Medivacs and try to get damage done in that way and finally the last option, if the Protoss splits his units even and is safe on both sides you keep up a "mini-contain". During all this is it VERY important that you do not lose your army because it's the only thing that keep him from moving across the map and killing you, because you can't take on a Protoss army without having the proper counter to his tech path even with perfect micro it's near impossible to trade cost reflectively or even against Storm or Collossi with pure Bio. Okay, so far so good. Now we get to the MS Core, which pretty much shuts down this attack because the core with a handful of units is enough to defend either the natural or the main. If the Core is at the natural with a few Sentries a slow + FFs will delay your army for long enough to move his units down and deal with it, if the Core is in the main an Overcharge + a few Stalkers to snipe the Medivacs is enough to hold off drops.
The big problem that results from this is that the Protoss player gains a new timing, he can now attack with his first Tech path, which is just so hard to deal with that's not even fun anymore.
Sure, I'm not a top tier player (~Rank 30 Masters in WoL with Z and T) but from what I've experienced so far it only really works if the Toss fucks up.
I'm not saying that Bio isn't viable anymore, but it has gotten a lot harder. If you now also take into consideration how strong current Gateway + Stargate all-ins are and that Tempests and buffed VRs make the late-game even harder than it already was you get a fucking hard match-up.
As an added bonus the win-rates of two of my friends, who play roughly at my level.
+ Show Spoiler +
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On February 20 2013 23:33 Grapefruit wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2013 22:37 kondis wrote:On February 20 2013 22:29 Grapefruit wrote:On February 20 2013 19:09 kondis wrote:
PvT
I feel that this matchup is fairly balanced. I feel otherwise. Check top 10 gms. Currently 7 terrans, so at the highest level terran is fairly balanced Also TvP bio has not undergone many changes, your winrates should be similar in WOL Using GM rankings as an argument for or against balance is not really the best way to go at it, I think. I don't say that you can't read any balance from it, but in the end it's more of an indicator of how much a person plays. Saying that Bio TvP hasn't undergone many changes is a MASSIVE understatement. One of the core moments of 99% of all Bio TvP plays is the 2 Medivac Stim timing, for several reasons. First and most importantly it keeps the Protoss at home, allowing you to take your third and let your full production kick in and starting to counter the tech path of the Protoss. The problem is that with the addition of the MC Core this push doesn't really work anymore. You see, in WoL your main goal as a Terran was to get the Protoss to split up his units and then attack the "weaker" side as in if he pulls to many units into his main you stim in with your army and try to kill Sentries, Probes or other valuable things if he sits at his natural your drop your 2 Medivacs and try to get damage done in that way and finally the last option, if the Protoss splits his units even and is safe on both sides you keep up a "mini-contain". During all this is it VERY important that you do not lose your army because it's the only thing that keep him from moving across the map and killing you, because you can't take on a Protoss army without having the proper counter to his tech path even with perfect micro it's near impossible to trade cost reflectively or even against Storm or Collossi with pure Bio. Okay, so far so good. Now we get to the MS Core, which pretty much shuts down this attack because the core with a handful of units is enough to defend either the natural or the main. If the Core is at the natural with a few Sentries a slow + FFs will delay your army for long enough to move his units down and deal with it, if the Core is in the main an Overcharge + a few Stalkers to snipe the Medivacs is enough to hold off drops. The big problem that results from this is that the Protoss player gains a new timing, he can now attack with his first Tech path, which is just so hard to deal with that's not even fun anymore. Sure, I'm not a top tier player (~Rank 30 Masters in WoL with Z and T) but from what I've experienced so far it only really works if the Toss fucks up. I'm not saying that Bio isn't viable anymore, but it has gotten a lot harder. If you now also take into consideration how strong current Gateway + Stargate all-ins are and that Tempests and buffed VRs make the late-game even harder than it already was you get a fucking hard match-up. As an added bonus the win-rates of two of my friends, who play roughly at my level. + Show Spoiler +
I would suggest Turtle Terran. Especially powerful on akilon flats / wastes where you can get 3 easy bases (similar to entombed). Widow mines + free siege tank tech will give you an indestructible base defense where you can quickly max out and then deal with the protoss army.
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On February 20 2013 23:47 nomyx wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2013 23:33 Grapefruit wrote:On February 20 2013 22:37 kondis wrote:On February 20 2013 22:29 Grapefruit wrote:On February 20 2013 19:09 kondis wrote:
PvT
I feel that this matchup is fairly balanced. I feel otherwise. Check top 10 gms. Currently 7 terrans, so at the highest level terran is fairly balanced Also TvP bio has not undergone many changes, your winrates should be similar in WOL Using GM rankings as an argument for or against balance is not really the best way to go at it, I think. I don't say that you can't read any balance from it, but in the end it's more of an indicator of how much a person plays. Saying that Bio TvP hasn't undergone many changes is a MASSIVE understatement. One of the core moments of 99% of all Bio TvP plays is the 2 Medivac Stim timing, for several reasons. First and most importantly it keeps the Protoss at home, allowing you to take your third and let your full production kick in and starting to counter the tech path of the Protoss. The problem is that with the addition of the MC Core this push doesn't really work anymore. You see, in WoL your main goal as a Terran was to get the Protoss to split up his units and then attack the "weaker" side as in if he pulls to many units into his main you stim in with your army and try to kill Sentries, Probes or other valuable things if he sits at his natural your drop your 2 Medivacs and try to get damage done in that way and finally the last option, if the Protoss splits his units even and is safe on both sides you keep up a "mini-contain". During all this is it VERY important that you do not lose your army because it's the only thing that keep him from moving across the map and killing you, because you can't take on a Protoss army without having the proper counter to his tech path even with perfect micro it's near impossible to trade cost reflectively or even against Storm or Collossi with pure Bio. Okay, so far so good. Now we get to the MS Core, which pretty much shuts down this attack because the core with a handful of units is enough to defend either the natural or the main. If the Core is at the natural with a few Sentries a slow + FFs will delay your army for long enough to move his units down and deal with it, if the Core is in the main an Overcharge + a few Stalkers to snipe the Medivacs is enough to hold off drops. The big problem that results from this is that the Protoss player gains a new timing, he can now attack with his first Tech path, which is just so hard to deal with that's not even fun anymore. Sure, I'm not a top tier player (~Rank 30 Masters in WoL with Z and T) but from what I've experienced so far it only really works if the Toss fucks up. I'm not saying that Bio isn't viable anymore, but it has gotten a lot harder. If you now also take into consideration how strong current Gateway + Stargate all-ins are and that Tempests and buffed VRs make the late-game even harder than it already was you get a fucking hard match-up. As an added bonus the win-rates of two of my friends, who play roughly at my level. + Show Spoiler + I would suggest Turtle Terran. Especially powerful on akilon flats / wastes where you can get 3 easy bases (similar to entombed). Widow mines + free siege tank tech will give you an indestructible base defense where you can quickly max out and then deal with the protoss army.
I don't know against what kind of people you play, but when I go for Tank/Mine the Toss usually proceeds to take his whole half of the map and rightfully so, since I need to commit hard to these units for them to be effective. Also both of these units are supply heavy and very immobile, which is pretty much the opposite of what you need. Also Tempests.
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On February 20 2013 22:37 kondis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2013 22:29 Grapefruit wrote:On February 20 2013 19:09 kondis wrote:
PvT
I feel that this matchup is fairly balanced. I feel otherwise. Check top 10 gms. Currently 7 terrans, so at the highest level terran is fairly balanced Also TvP bio has not undergone many changes, your winrates should be similar in WOL
- nexus cannon
- slow field thing
- more and stronger protoss allins, like 1 oracle to fake mass oracle to force the terran to have marines in his main, then use a voidray to kill the bunker in the front, and win. Faster blink.
- oracles
i don't even think you can 1 rax cc safely anymore.
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I really liked the bias article!
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Nice "analysis", completely biased from a diamond level protoss. You want to nerf drops so the 20 apm protosses can just sit and then a move again? Stargate not viable? Too high risk?? Are you kidding me? Make 1 oracle and have the chance to outright win the game by killing all marines and scvs, and if not get ahead anyway because having forced 5 turrets, or having detection against the mines. Get master first and play some terran and then try again.
And no, TvP is not balanced, it is completely protoss favoured right now but we see that anyway in the first hots tournaments.
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I had a hard time taking anything here seriously when literally proxy stargate Oracle is a viable and very good build PvT even when you know it is coming.
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On February 21 2013 00:28 Aquila- wrote:
Nice "analysis", completely biased from a diamond level protoss. You want to nerf drops so the 20 apm protosses can just sit and then a move again? Stargate not viable? Too high risk?? Are you kidding me? Make 1 oracle and have the chance to outright win the game by killing all marines and scvs, and if not get ahead anyway because having forced 5 turrets, or having detection against the mines. Get master first and play some terran and then try again.
And no, TvP is not balanced, it is completely protoss favoured right now but we see that anyway in the first hots tournaments.
Hi!
In order to determine the balance of the matchup, we must first determine how we want to measure it. As only publicly available information is from first HOTS beta tournaments (mostly GM / pro level), I'll summarize results here. These are statistics for few first tournaments that google found first.
To determine actual "value" for each win, we should take number of players for each race into account. For example, if there are 20 terran players but only 1 protoss player, it would be highly unlikely protoss player to win. I also expect that each player is equally skilled (not true, but good enough when we have enough statistics)
PHD_Inaugural_HotS_Beta_Tournament
Participants: 8
TOP 3:
1. T
2. Z
3. P
NVIDIA_SC2_HotS_Cup
Participants: 28
TOP 3:
1. Z
2. T
3. Z
[url=http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/ESET_UK_Masters_2013/Season_1/Invitational_Qualifier_1[/url]
Participants: 16
TOP 3:
1. P
2. T
3. Z
[url=http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/The_SHOUTcraft_Invitational/House_of_the_Swarm]The_SHOUTcraft_Invitational / House_of_the_Swarm[/url]
TOP 3:
1. T
2. P
3. T
Conclusion:
So, if TvP is "completely protoss favored", terran pro players are far better than other races pro players. I try to collect more statistics and calculate individual ratios for each matchup in the weekend.
Meanwhile, if you intend to state "completely protoss favored", please include statistics or even explanation why. Because "Get master first and play some terran and then try again" makes you just sound dumb.
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On February 21 2013 01:04 kondis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2013 00:28 Aquila- wrote:
Nice "analysis", completely biased from a diamond level protoss. You want to nerf drops so the 20 apm protosses can just sit and then a move again? Stargate not viable? Too high risk?? Are you kidding me? Make 1 oracle and have the chance to outright win the game by killing all marines and scvs, and if not get ahead anyway because having forced 5 turrets, or having detection against the mines. Get master first and play some terran and then try again.
And no, TvP is not balanced, it is completely protoss favoured right now but we see that anyway in the first hots tournaments. [...] Conclusion: Terran seems to be the strongest race, while zerg is clearly the underdog. So, if TvP is "completely protoss favored", terran pro players are far better than other races pro players. I try to collect more statistics and calculate individual ratios for each matchup in the weekend. [...]
Wait, you have 5 Terrans, 4 Zergs, and 3 Protosses in your rankings, and the conclusion is: Terran is the strongest (I'll allow it) and Zerg is clearly the underdog (wtf)?
Not that I disagree, but pick your justification better...
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On February 21 2013 01:10 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2013 01:04 kondis wrote:On February 21 2013 00:28 Aquila- wrote:
Nice "analysis", completely biased from a diamond level protoss. You want to nerf drops so the 20 apm protosses can just sit and then a move again? Stargate not viable? Too high risk?? Are you kidding me? Make 1 oracle and have the chance to outright win the game by killing all marines and scvs, and if not get ahead anyway because having forced 5 turrets, or having detection against the mines. Get master first and play some terran and then try again.
And no, TvP is not balanced, it is completely protoss favoured right now but we see that anyway in the first hots tournaments. [...] Conclusion: Terran seems to be the strongest race, while zerg is clearly the underdog. So, if TvP is "completely protoss favored", terran pro players are far better than other races pro players. I try to collect more statistics and calculate individual ratios for each matchup in the weekend. [...] Wait, you have 5 Terrans, 4 Zergs, and 3 Protosses in your rankings, and the conclusion is: Terran is the strongest (I'll allow it) and Zerg is clearly the underdog (wtf)? Not that I disagree, but pick your justification better...
Sorry, I calculated that with the number of participants per race, but I didn't include the calculation itself (too lazy). I'll reprase that.
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On February 21 2013 01:04 kondis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2013 00:28 Aquila- wrote:
Nice "analysis", completely biased from a diamond level protoss. You want to nerf drops so the 20 apm protosses can just sit and then a move again? Stargate not viable? Too high risk?? Are you kidding me? Make 1 oracle and have the chance to outright win the game by killing all marines and scvs, and if not get ahead anyway because having forced 5 turrets, or having detection against the mines. Get master first and play some terran and then try again.
And no, TvP is not balanced, it is completely protoss favoured right now but we see that anyway in the first hots tournaments. Hi! In order to determine the balance of the matchup, we must first determine how we want to measure it. As only publicly available information is from first HOTS beta tournaments (mostly GM / pro level), I'll summarize results here. These are statistics for few first tournaments that google found first. To determine actual "value" for each win, we should take number of players for each race into account. For example, if there are 20 terran players but only 1 protoss player, it would be highly unlikely protoss player to win. I also expect that each player is equally skilled (not true, but good enough when we have enough statistics) PHD_Inaugural_HotS_Beta_TournamentParticipants: 8 TOP 3: 1. T 2. Z 3. P NVIDIA_SC2_HotS_CupParticipants: 28 TOP 3: 1. Z 2. T 3. Z ESET_UK_Masters_2012 (Main event) Participants: 16 TOP 3: 1. P 2. T 3. Z The_SHOUTcraft_Invitational / House_of_the_SwarmTOP 3: 1. T 2. P 3. T Conclusion: Terran seems to be the strongest race, while zerg is clearly the underdog. So, if TvP is "completely protoss favored", terran pro players are far better than other races pro players. I try to collect more statistics and calculate individual ratios for each matchup in the weekend. Meanwhile, if you intend to state "completely protoss favored", please include statistics or even explanation why. Because "Get master first and play some terran and then try again" makes you just sound dumb.
Are you, or are you not aware that none of these tournaments was played after HotS Balance Patch #9 and therefore have NO relevance for current balance?
Also Aquila has a point, get to the Masters league before you try analyze the meta-game. Many people fall into the trap of thinking that Diamond -> Masters is pretty much the same difference as Plat -> Diamond for example, but this is very far from the truth. Getting from High Dia/Low Masters to mid/high Masters takes more learning that from Bronze to low Masters. It may sound harsh, but people below mid Master don't know shit about SC2.
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On February 21 2013 01:16 Grapefruit wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2013 01:04 kondis wrote:On February 21 2013 00:28 Aquila- wrote:
Nice "analysis", completely biased from a diamond level protoss. You want to nerf drops so the 20 apm protosses can just sit and then a move again? Stargate not viable? Too high risk?? Are you kidding me? Make 1 oracle and have the chance to outright win the game by killing all marines and scvs, and if not get ahead anyway because having forced 5 turrets, or having detection against the mines. Get master first and play some terran and then try again.
And no, TvP is not balanced, it is completely protoss favoured right now but we see that anyway in the first hots tournaments. Hi! In order to determine the balance of the matchup, we must first determine how we want to measure it. As only publicly available information is from first HOTS beta tournaments (mostly GM / pro level), I'll summarize results here. These are statistics for few first tournaments that google found first. To determine actual "value" for each win, we should take number of players for each race into account. For example, if there are 20 terran players but only 1 protoss player, it would be highly unlikely protoss player to win. I also expect that each player is equally skilled (not true, but good enough when we have enough statistics) PHD_Inaugural_HotS_Beta_TournamentParticipants: 8 TOP 3: 1. T 2. Z 3. P NVIDIA_SC2_HotS_CupParticipants: 28 TOP 3: 1. Z 2. T 3. Z ESET_UK_Masters_2012 (Main event) Participants: 16 TOP 3: 1. P 2. T 3. Z The_SHOUTcraft_Invitational / House_of_the_SwarmTOP 3: 1. T 2. P 3. T Conclusion: Terran seems to be the strongest race, while zerg is clearly the underdog. So, if TvP is "completely protoss favored", terran pro players are far better than other races pro players. I try to collect more statistics and calculate individual ratios for each matchup in the weekend. Meanwhile, if you intend to state "completely protoss favored", please include statistics or even explanation why. Because "Get master first and play some terran and then try again" makes you just sound dumb. Are you, or are you not aware that none of these tournaments was played after HotS Balance Patch #9 and therefore have NO relevance for current balance? Also Aquila has a point, get to the Masters league before you try analyze the meta-game. Many people fall into the trap of thinking that Diamond -> Masters is pretty much the same difference as Plat -> Diamond for example, but this is very far from the truth. Getting from High Dia/Low Masters to mid/high Masters takes more learning that from Bronze to low Masters. It may sound harsh, but people below mid Master don't know shit about SC2.
Hello!
If you have links to tournaments AFTER the patch, please include them! It's not really helpful just state that those hold no significance. Also, at least ESET UK MASTERS qualifiers were played after the patch. Also, I could state that anyone below pro level can't speak about the metagame. Imagine the gap between top masters and pro players. However I won't because
that is not really helping the community.
Edit: I had wrong link in ESET UK MASTERS, pointed to 2012 tournament. Link now points to latest qulifier for ESET UK MASTERS 2013.
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the real question is how many of those HOTS GM terran are MKP's alt
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On February 21 2013 01:25 kondis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2013 01:16 Grapefruit wrote:On February 21 2013 01:04 kondis wrote:On February 21 2013 00:28 Aquila- wrote:
Nice "analysis", completely biased from a diamond level protoss. You want to nerf drops so the 20 apm protosses can just sit and then a move again? Stargate not viable? Too high risk?? Are you kidding me? Make 1 oracle and have the chance to outright win the game by killing all marines and scvs, and if not get ahead anyway because having forced 5 turrets, or having detection against the mines. Get master first and play some terran and then try again.
And no, TvP is not balanced, it is completely protoss favoured right now but we see that anyway in the first hots tournaments. Hi! In order to determine the balance of the matchup, we must first determine how we want to measure it. As only publicly available information is from first HOTS beta tournaments (mostly GM / pro level), I'll summarize results here. These are statistics for few first tournaments that google found first. To determine actual "value" for each win, we should take number of players for each race into account. For example, if there are 20 terran players but only 1 protoss player, it would be highly unlikely protoss player to win. I also expect that each player is equally skilled (not true, but good enough when we have enough statistics) PHD_Inaugural_HotS_Beta_TournamentParticipants: 8 TOP 3: 1. T 2. Z 3. P NVIDIA_SC2_HotS_CupParticipants: 28 TOP 3: 1. Z 2. T 3. Z ESET_UK_Masters_2012 (Main event) Participants: 16 TOP 3: 1. P 2. T 3. Z The_SHOUTcraft_Invitational / House_of_the_SwarmTOP 3: 1. T 2. P 3. T Conclusion: Terran seems to be the strongest race, while zerg is clearly the underdog. So, if TvP is "completely protoss favored", terran pro players are far better than other races pro players. I try to collect more statistics and calculate individual ratios for each matchup in the weekend. Meanwhile, if you intend to state "completely protoss favored", please include statistics or even explanation why. Because "Get master first and play some terran and then try again" makes you just sound dumb. Are you, or are you not aware that none of these tournaments was played after HotS Balance Patch #9 and therefore have NO relevance for current balance? Also Aquila has a point, get to the Masters league before you try analyze the meta-game. Many people fall into the trap of thinking that Diamond -> Masters is pretty much the same difference as Plat -> Diamond for example, but this is very far from the truth. Getting from High Dia/Low Masters to mid/high Masters takes more learning that from Bronze to low Masters. It may sound harsh, but people below mid Master don't know shit about SC2. Hello! If you have links to tournaments AFTER the patch, please include them! It's not really helpful just state that those hold no significance. Also, at least ESET UK MASTERS qualifiers were played after the patch. Also, I could state that anyone below pro level can't speak about the metagame. Imagine the gap between top masters and pro players. However I won't because that is not really helping the community.
They were played after Patch 9 maybe, but we're currently at Patch 14.
The closest we get is the MLG WC Showdowns and the GSL preseason, which results so far are:
MLG:
TvP: 1:1
PvZ: 5:2
TvZ: 2:0
GSL:
TvP: 3:4
PvZ: 1:1
TvZ: 3:2
Overall there are just not enough games yet to take them as an example, this will change soon however. When the first real tournaments have been played and the HotS GSL is running we will be able to make conclusions from the results but right now? It would take a fucking mastermind of SC to say what is balanced, what is not and what should be changed. And with all respect, that mastermind certainly isn't you.
And yes, you should state that only Pro level players can really talk about the meta-game and balance, because it's 100% correct. You should also draw the conclusion from it that you're even less qualified to do so. Because what's really not helping the community are countless people who think they know what they are talking about, making senseless and biased balance suggestions.
Imagine if someone who studied half a semester of Engineering came to you and told you how he could redefine Hooke´s law, because that's basically what you're doing right now.
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On February 20 2013 23:33 Grapefruit wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2013 22:37 kondis wrote:On February 20 2013 22:29 Grapefruit wrote:On February 20 2013 19:09 kondis wrote:
PvT
I feel that this matchup is fairly balanced. I feel otherwise. Check top 10 gms. Currently 7 terrans, so at the highest level terran is fairly balanced Also TvP bio has not undergone many changes, your winrates should be similar in WOL Using GM rankings as an argument for or against balance is not really the best way to go at it, I think. I don't say that you can't read any balance from it, but in the end it's more of an indicator of how much a person plays. Saying that Bio TvP hasn't undergone many changes is a MASSIVE understatement. One of the core moments of 99% of all Bio TvP plays is the 2 Medivac Stim timing, for several reasons. First and most importantly it keeps the Protoss at home, allowing you to take your third and let your full production kick in and starting to counter the tech path of the Protoss. The problem is that with the addition of the MC Core this push doesn't really work anymore. You see, in WoL your main goal as a Terran was to get the Protoss to split up his units and then attack the "weaker" side as in if he pulls to many units into his main you stim in with your army and try to kill Sentries, Probes or other valuable things if he sits at his natural your drop your 2 Medivacs and try to get damage done in that way and finally the last option, if the Protoss splits his units even and is safe on both sides you keep up a "mini-contain". During all this is it VERY important that you do not lose your army because it's the only thing that keep him from moving across the map and killing you, because you can't take on a Protoss army without having the proper counter to his tech path even with perfect micro it's near impossible to trade cost reflectively or even against Storm or Collossi with pure Bio. Okay, so far so good. Now we get to the MS Core, which pretty much shuts down this attack because the core with a handful of units is enough to defend either the natural or the main. If the Core is at the natural with a few Sentries a slow + FFs will delay your army for long enough to move his units down and deal with it, if the Core is in the main an Overcharge + a few Stalkers to snipe the Medivacs is enough to hold off drops. The big problem that results from this is that the Protoss player gains a new timing, he can now attack with his first Tech path, which is just so hard to deal with that's not even fun anymore. Sure, I'm not a top tier player (~Rank 30 Masters in WoL with Z and T) but from what I've experienced so far it only really works if the Toss fucks up. I'm not saying that Bio isn't viable anymore, but it has gotten a lot harder. If you now also take into consideration how strong current Gateway + Stargate all-ins are and that Tempests and buffed VRs make the late-game even harder than it already was you get a fucking hard match-up. As an added bonus the win-rates of two of my friends, who play roughly at my level. + Show Spoiler +
You can only balance the game at the very highest levels of play. Your experience as a middling masters player should be completely irrelevant to balance considerations (with the minor exception I describe below). Even GM is too low of a level to balance at (although at this point in HoTS that's really all they have to go off). Balance is in fact set and should be set based on the experiences of perhaps the top 50 to 100 players in the world. These players more or less play as close to optimal as anyone. Thus it's easier (but of course not always possible) to see whether the game needs a tweak in order to balance out win rates across the three races. You cannot balance at lower levels because those players are using suboptimal builds, not executing them as well as the top tier pros, not microing as well as the top tier pros, etc. Moreover the way MMR works you will always be playing players at about your weighted average MMR level, which means a couple things: If you're really good at two matchups and bad at another your results in the other matchups will cause you to play players with comparatively higher MMRs in your worst matchup, which means you're likely to continue to lose, and overall you'll win around 50% of your matchups until you get to around the GM level, where you'll start winning a bit more than you lose, usually. Also, because of the way MMR works, unless a matchup is grossly imbalanced you're not going to see too much variation in win rates across the six non mirror matchups. Thus balancing for lower levels of play is not much of an issue as a practical matter.
There is one minor exception to the rule that your experience as a middling [masters][GM][bronze] level player should be more or less completely ignored for balance purposes :
If the game was balanced in such a way to make it extremely frustrating at the non-top tier pro level of play, such that 10 or 20 percent of all players in a given race simply stopped playing as a result. Then perhaps Blizzard would take that into account when making a "balance" change. Such a change would be more of a gameplay directional change rather than a balance change however.
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On February 21 2013 01:57 Grapefruit wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2013 01:25 kondis wrote:On February 21 2013 01:16 Grapefruit wrote:On February 21 2013 01:04 kondis wrote:On February 21 2013 00:28 Aquila- wrote:
Nice "analysis", completely biased from a diamond level protoss. You want to nerf drops so the 20 apm protosses can just sit and then a move again? Stargate not viable? Too high risk?? Are you kidding me? Make 1 oracle and have the chance to outright win the game by killing all marines and scvs, and if not get ahead anyway because having forced 5 turrets, or having detection against the mines. Get master first and play some terran and then try again.
And no, TvP is not balanced, it is completely protoss favoured right now but we see that anyway in the first hots tournaments. Hi! In order to determine the balance of the matchup, we must first determine how we want to measure it. As only publicly available information is from first HOTS beta tournaments (mostly GM / pro level), I'll summarize results here. These are statistics for few first tournaments that google found first. To determine actual "value" for each win, we should take number of players for each race into account. For example, if there are 20 terran players but only 1 protoss player, it would be highly unlikely protoss player to win. I also expect that each player is equally skilled (not true, but good enough when we have enough statistics) PHD_Inaugural_HotS_Beta_TournamentParticipants: 8 TOP 3: 1. T 2. Z 3. P NVIDIA_SC2_HotS_CupParticipants: 28 TOP 3: 1. Z 2. T 3. Z ESET_UK_Masters_2012 (Main event) Participants: 16 TOP 3: 1. P 2. T 3. Z The_SHOUTcraft_Invitational / House_of_the_SwarmTOP 3: 1. T 2. P 3. T Conclusion: Terran seems to be the strongest race, while zerg is clearly the underdog. So, if TvP is "completely protoss favored", terran pro players are far better than other races pro players. I try to collect more statistics and calculate individual ratios for each matchup in the weekend. Meanwhile, if you intend to state "completely protoss favored", please include statistics or even explanation why. Because "Get master first and play some terran and then try again" makes you just sound dumb. Are you, or are you not aware that none of these tournaments was played after HotS Balance Patch #9 and therefore have NO relevance for current balance? Also Aquila has a point, get to the Masters league before you try analyze the meta-game. Many people fall into the trap of thinking that Diamond -> Masters is pretty much the same difference as Plat -> Diamond for example, but this is very far from the truth. Getting from High Dia/Low Masters to mid/high Masters takes more learning that from Bronze to low Masters. It may sound harsh, but people below mid Master don't know shit about SC2. Hello! If you have links to tournaments AFTER the patch, please include them! It's not really helpful just state that those hold no significance. Also, at least ESET UK MASTERS qualifiers were played after the patch. Also, I could state that anyone below pro level can't speak about the metagame. Imagine the gap between top masters and pro players. However I won't because that is not really helping the community. They were played after Patch 9 maybe, but we're currently at Patch 14. The closest we get is the MLG WC Showdowns and the GSL preseason, which results so far are: MLG: TvP: 1:1 PvZ: 5:2 TvZ: 2:0 GSL: TvP: 3:4 PvZ: 1:1 TvZ: 3:2 Overall there are just not enough games yet to take them as an example, this will change soon however. When the first real tournaments have been played and the HotS GSL is running we will be able to make conclusions from the results but right now? It would take a fucking mastermind of SC to say what is balanced, what is not and what should be changed. And with all respect, that mastermind certainly isn't you. And yes, you should state that only Pro level players can really talk about the meta-game and balance, because it's 100% correct. You should also draw the conclusion from it that you're even less qualified to do so. Because what's really not helping the community are countless people who think they know what they are talking about, making senseless and biased balance suggestions. Imagine if someone who studied half a semester of Engineering came to you and told you how he could redefine Hooke´s law, because that's basically what you're doing right now.
Thanks for tournament results!
The best anybody right now can do is take all the available statistics and evidence and draw conclusions from there while keeping in mind that the data set is small. By helping the community, I mean raising discussion over balance and the direction sc2 is currently heading. I don't claim to - as I stated at the beginning - that my opinion would be any less biased, rightful or otherwise more meaningful that anybody elses. However, this particular discussion has motivated both you and to dig some statistics - however small their meaning might be - and bring the information in here. So, we're both already contributed
If someone would state that he could redefine Hooke's law, I would be quite excited to see he has. I wouldn't expect that to be true, but keeping ones mind open to suggestions is the basis of development, be it personal or any other development.
If you don't mind, I'll add your post to good criticism section above
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I just wanna say that this is like the third time today where I have read an article that starts off saying "excuse the poor english, its my 67th language"
and every time I read the article, the only thing I notice is now the OPs english is better than my own lol
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I think a good way to fix skytoss is to just buff infestors Neural Parasite to siege like range that only effects air massive units and can also be used while burrowed. It would effect tempest and carriers, but wouldn't change infestors NP useage on ground units. They could even add a flag that doesn't allow colossi to be NP if it's too strong. The drawbacks is that it could really hurt BC's and carriers and they already have too many hard counters. NP is already rather useless, it's not like zergs are using them on ground units at the moment, and this could also make ZvZ kind of funny if both players end up with BL/infestor.
Otherwise I can't think of anything other than a straight nerf to tempest and/or voids because I don't think buffing hydras is the way to go, sure they could use more HP but that would up their usefullness against every unit in the game with a combination of vipers and I would rather keep balance the way it is but only change the relationship of skytoss in PvZ. I think buffing corrupters would result in the same thing, unless the ghost snipe ability was buffed to compensate for vikings being weaker in ZvT.
Maybe another option is buffing vipers abduct aka grab ability? Currently you have to get pretty close and the main ability zergs are using with vipers is blinding cloud, so buffing this ability to giving it more range could be acceptable. NP and abduct could both be great to pick apart the skytoss death ball and the death ball is only good if it has templars so it's not like toss doesn't have a counter. Any other ideas?
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Ok just to deliver my reason for "completely protoss favoured": Protoss now has even more allins than in wol, and it is really hard to scout the correct one, sometimes it is a guessing game if you scout 2 gas. For example, a proxy oracle can arrive in the terran base at 5:30 gametime, and since 1 oracle can kill 5 marines but terran can have a maximum of 4 marines at this time, you need to start and ebay at 4:30 to have a turret in time, and at this point it is practically impossible to know its a proxy stargate unless you get a lucky scout. And even if you scout the stargate it could be a voidray allin, in which case if you invested into turrets in your main you flatout die at the front. On the other hand almost all of the timing attacks that terran could do dont work any more because of the nexus cannon, it can even hold a 1-1-1 with ease (13 range yo). Parting vs Fantasy showmatch is a good example.
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On February 21 2013 04:26 emc wrote:
I think a good way to fix skytoss is to just buff infestors Neural Parasite to siege like range that only effects air massive units and can also be used while burrowed. It would effect tempest and carriers, but wouldn't change infestors NP useage on ground units. They could even add a flag that doesn't allow colossi to be NP if it's too strong. The drawbacks is that it could really hurt BC's and carriers and they already have too many hard counters. NP is already rather useless, it's not like zergs are using them on ground units at the moment, and this could also make ZvZ kind of funny if both players end up with BL/infestor.
Otherwise I can't think of anything other than a straight nerf to tempest and/or voids because I don't think buffing hydras is the way to go, sure they could use more HP but that would up their usefullness against every unit in the game with a combination of vipers and I would rather keep balance the way it is but only change the relationship of skytoss in PvZ. I think buffing corrupters would result in the same thing, unless the ghost snipe ability was buffed to compensate for vikings being weaker in ZvT.
Maybe another option is buffing vipers abduct aka grab ability? Currently you have to get pretty close and the main ability zergs are using with vipers is blinding cloud, so buffing this ability to giving it more range could be acceptable. NP and abduct could both be great to pick apart the skytoss death ball and the death ball is only good if it has templars so it's not like toss doesn't have a counter. Any other ideas?
I agree that some kind of neural parasite tweak would be great. It's underused, and may be even rather unusable in its current state. Balancing the NP will be a challenge, though. One thing to make it viable would be an extended range. Infestor casting NP will be feedbacked / sniped easily, unless the zerg position is really good. I think that viper is underused. From pro players streams I've seen roach / hydra / viper ball to completely mop the floor with gateway / colossus army.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/8WJfwgA.png)
