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With heart of the swarm there has been an interesting shift in the ZvP metagame.
1) Stargate openings are quite prevalent, either one or 2 stargates and getting oracles/pheonix/voids
2) Lair Tech Hydra Speed has made Hydras a much more viable option in the matchup.
I therefore want to propose a discussion of playing ZvpPwithout roaches, and instead using a heavy hydra style,
The main idea is to hold off any 2 base protoss timings with a hydra-ling composition and then counter attacking with the new fast hydra, if toss takes a fast 3rd hitting it again with the fast hydra.
The benefits seem to be the added DPS of the hydralisk. less mitigated by FF, stronger vs gateway units (particularly stalkers) and they do much better vs immortals.
Furthermore I feel that if the protoss opens with a stargate it is basically a free win as the SG harass will do nothing and they won't have anything to hold off the huge swell of hydras.
The downside of this is how vulnerable the composition is to collosus, however if the protoss plays in a standard way then a hydra ling timing can hit before a significant amount of them are out.
hereare 2 replays but not the highest level play from me. Thanks for reading and please contribute.
ZvP Hydras 1
ZvP Hydras 2
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So what happens when they get mass zealots to support the air ???
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On February 20 2013 14:26 GGY0UMAKE wrote:
So what happens when they get mass zealots to support the air ???
Buffer the zealots with lings and the Hydra DPS will rip through them.
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I haven't run into pure hydra. But I've hit ling hydra, and roach hydra quite often. And to be completely honest, my PvZ winrate is very high at the 1300+ Masters level, I don't think it holds up at the highest levels unless you're trying to just blind counter/punish air timings. Vs Pure gateway I can't see it working. Hydra are too squishy.
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Used to do this ling/hydra pre-colossus aggression in WoL about a year ago quite successfully but had troubles with transition in midgame. Now with the upgrade at Lair I feel it progresses better.
Remember Nydus!
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On February 20 2013 14:35 Vlare wrote:
I haven't run into pure hydra. But I've hit ling hydra, and roach hydra quite often. And to be completely honest, my PvZ winrate is very high at the 1300+ Masters level, I don't think it holds up at the highest levels unless you're trying to just blind counter/punish air timings. Vs Pure gateway I can't see it working. Hydra are too squishy.
Yeh the idea is ling hydra not just pure hydra.
I don't really think many people are going pure gateway and hydras do really well vs pure gateway in general.
I just feel like with hydra speed in HOTS you can reinforce your push with hydras which you couldn't do in the past.
EDIT - It is also a semi blind counter but with how many SG openings I see currently it seems like a pretty good % risk
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On February 20 2013 14:37 Savant.GL wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2013 14:35 Vlare wrote:
I haven't run into pure hydra. But I've hit ling hydra, and roach hydra quite often. And to be completely honest, my PvZ winrate is very high at the 1300+ Masters level, I don't think it holds up at the highest levels unless you're trying to just blind counter/punish air timings. Vs Pure gateway I can't see it working. Hydra are too squishy. Yeh the idea is ling hydra not just pure hydra. I don't really think many people are going pure gateway and hydras do really well vs pure gateway in general. I just feel like with hydra speed in HOTS you can reinforce your push with hydras which you couldn't do in the past. EDIT - It is also a semi blind counter but with how many SG openings I see currently it seems like a pretty good % risk
It will certainly punish the majority of the non-scouting protoss and greedy air openers. For my current opener, this is almost a free win for me. I think this style can get you to mid masters easily to be honest, it seems very fun, and you can do a lot with it if you're comfortable doing multi pronged aggression.
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to be honest i think roaches are still needed some as damage sponge lings just really dont cut it vs colossus or archon or even chargelots to be frank and even with the new speed its not a free win where u can just counter attack against stargate and win. with good army control and comp ( right amount of sentries and zealots to back up the stargate) they can hold off hydra ling and then take a third. also hydra ling just doesn't synergism upgrade wise as well as roach hydra. i think the best way would be to go heavy ling infestor into ultra only using hydra if stargate. (new ultra is bossmode vs toss ground.) if u want to avoid roaches.
if you want to develop a build that hits a specific timing i think that actually can and would be really strong though
im not saying it wont work but just saying its probably not optimal. on a side note i personally prefer muta into roach hydra vs toss right now in beta i rarely if i manage to get mutas out without damage and as long as u baby sit ur muta vs stargate u will usually be able to still do some damge while u transition
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It's funny because Hydras are IN, so I can get free wins by doing 3base 14min 180pop 3colossus stalker push and win easily.
It doesn't matter if they have corruptors or lings because both lings and hydras die to colossus and since they cant sustain a lot my stalkers will be able to shoot corruptors faster since the ground dies faster.
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On February 20 2013 14:55 psychotics wrote:
to be honest i think roaches are still needed some as damage sponge lings just really dont cut it vs colossus or archon or even chargelots to be frank and even with the new speed its not a free win where u can just counter attack against stargate and win. with good army control and comp ( right amount of sentries and zealots to back up the stargate) they can hold off hydra ling and then take a third. also hydra ling just doesn't synergism upgrade wise as well as roach hydra. i think the best way would be to go heavy ling infestor into ultra only using hydra if stargate. (new ultra is bossmode vs toss ground.) if u want to avoid roaches.
if you want to develop a build that hits a specific timing i think that actually can and would be really strong though
im not saying it wont work but just saying its probably not optimal. on a side note i personally prefer muta into roach hydra vs toss right now in beta i rarely if i manage to get mutas out without damage and as long as u baby sit ur muta vs stargate u will usually be able to still do some damge while u transition
To the first point, the timing hits at a time when the protoss is unlikely to have chargelots,archons or a huge colossus count. So I don't think I have to worry about that, if the timing fails then yeh I might be in trouble. I think if the timing doesnt kill the protoss you just have to go into some counter attack style with drops and nydus rather than trying to engage a colossus ball.
The reason I don't want roaches with this build is just the gas cost, yes I know roaches are only 25 gas, but that still means less hydras and I need roach speed so thats my reason.
I haven't really played with ling infestor, i'm not really sure how it works in HOTS but I just feel like for when my timing is to hit hydras are much better than infestors.
Can you submit some replays of your muta into roach. hydra play. I always feel like early mutas is a coin toss where I can just die to a huge range of timings.
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On February 20 2013 14:59 Meteo Rain wrote:
It's funny because Hydras are IN, so I can get free wins by doing 3base 14min 180pop 3colossus stalker push and win easily.
It doesn't matter if they have corruptors or lings because both lings and hydras die to colossus and since they cant sustain a lot my stalkers will be able to shoot corruptors faster since the ground dies faster.
Yeh that is a good way to punish a zerg who doesn't scout, do you just skip immortals and head right to colossus?
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+ Show Spoiler +On February 20 2013 15:05 Savant.GL wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2013 14:55 psychotics wrote:
to be honest i think roaches are still needed some as damage sponge lings just really dont cut it vs colossus or archon or even chargelots to be frank and even with the new speed its not a free win where u can just counter attack against stargate and win. with good army control and comp ( right amount of sentries and zealots to back up the stargate) they can hold off hydra ling and then take a third. also hydra ling just doesn't synergism upgrade wise as well as roach hydra. i think the best way would be to go heavy ling infestor into ultra only using hydra if stargate. (new ultra is bossmode vs toss ground.) if u want to avoid roaches.
if you want to develop a build that hits a specific timing i think that actually can and would be really strong though
im not saying it wont work but just saying its probably not optimal. on a side note i personally prefer muta into roach hydra vs toss right now in beta i rarely if i manage to get mutas out without damage and as long as u baby sit ur muta vs stargate u will usually be able to still do some damge while u transition To the first point, the timing hits at a time when the protoss is unlikely to have chargelots,archons or a huge colossus count. So I don't think I have to worry about that, if the timing fails then yeh I might be in trouble. I think if the timing doesnt kill the protoss you just have to go into some counter attack style with drops and nydus rather than trying to engage a colossus ball. The reason I don't want roaches with this build is just the gas cost, yes I know roaches are only 25 gas, but that still means less hydras and I need roach speed so thats my reason. I haven't really played with ling infestor, i'm not really sure how it works in HOTS but I just feel like for when my timing is to hit hydras are much better than infestors. Can you submit some replays of your muta into roach. hydra play. I always feel like early mutas is a coin toss where I can just die to a huge range of timings.
i can see if i have some replays of muta play. my muta build isnt quite the normal play though cause i will open 11overpool into 3 base muta. so if the toss is going for stargate usually the stargate is scouted or revealed before the spire finishes so i have time to react as opposed to normal spire ur mutas are popping out right as the phenoixes get there and u cant react
edit: muta into hydra roach games vs toss that i could find not the best but u can atleast get the gist of it
http://drop.sc/305890
http://drop.sc/305891
http://drop.sc/305892
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I dont like the way the OP plays, psychotics style seems better. However, hydra into muta is a lot stronger than everything you mentioned. The problem with going muta first is that its coinflippish and you straight out die to a lot of timings, hydra ling allows you to survive all these and forces your opponent into robo units.
Short explanation on the build itself:
I also start with a 11 overpool into 3.30 gas, 5.00 ling speed and 6.00 lair into hydras. As soon as protoss either goes for a robo bay or takes a third (which you can pressure/deny with hydras very well) i make huge transition into mutas. Its really powerful. Third is taken after you reach saturation at your natural. This is also very well doable by 14 pool, no need for lower pool if you dont like it.
If protoss for some reason goes for a 2 base fast colossi push you should react with a spire asap instead of committing to hydras. This is easily scoutable tho and very rare nowadays.
I faced almost every build there is (all possible 2 base allins as well as macro games with tripple stargate/templars and lots of stalkers/etc) and it really seems to work vs everything, even on high level
I'll think about writing a good guide however im very lazy with stuff like this :D
On February 20 2013 14:59 Meteo Rain wrote:
It's funny because Hydras are IN, so I can get free wins by doing 3base 14min 180pop 3colossus stalker push and win easily.
It doesn't matter if they have corruptors or lings because both lings and hydras die to colossus and since they cant sustain a lot my stalkers will be able to shoot corruptors faster since the ground dies faster.
I would bet money that won't work. Not only that muta hydra is much more mobile than your colossi based army (which makes baseracing quite easy), your timing will be also significantly weaker when hydra ling delays your third (another reason why hydra ling into muta is much better than muta into hydra). The goal from going ling hydra in midgame is EXACTLY to force you into colossi, which makes it the last thing you wanna do.
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Hydra ling gets mauled by colossus. Therefore you would have to avoid the army, just like you would with muta ling. However, I think that mutas are just better at that (faster/flying/better regeneration)
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On February 20 2013 21:42 DBS wrote:
Hydra ling gets mauled by colossus. Therefore you would have to avoid the army, just like you would with muta ling. However, I think that mutas are just better at that (faster/flying/better regeneration)
thats why i recommended just going hydra ling to pressure the protoss third or hold 2 base pre-colossi timing, as a safe way to get to mutas without having the fear to die and with the ability to put pressure on P and force them to robo.
@OP
I dont understand the logic behind in going muta first (which is vurneable to certain timings) into hydra (which dies to colossi).
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On February 20 2013 21:42 DBS wrote:
Hydra ling gets mauled by colossus. Therefore you would have to avoid the army, just like you would with muta ling. However, I think that mutas are just better at that (faster/flying/better regeneration)
The timing of a hydra ling attack should hit before colossus is a problem.
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United Kingdom12025 Posts
Since I never get to play PvZ and ZvP as I'm a terran, are hydra busts against FFE possible?
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I use a similar strategy to blind counter Stargate play and then I tech straight into Ultralisk/Baneling with caster support, works pretty well fwiw.
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what about early collusi, like parting did vs life in gsl recently, and life just died because he made hydras...
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On February 20 2013 21:07 doggy wrote:I dont like the way the OP plays, psychotics style seems better. However, hydra into muta is a lot stronger than everything you mentioned. The problem with going muta first is that its coinflippish and you straight out die to a lot of timings, hydra ling allows you to survive all these and forces your opponent into robo units. Short explanation on the build itself: I also start with a 11 overpool into 3.30 gas, 5.00 ling speed and 6.00 lair into hydras. As soon as protoss either goes for a robo bay or takes a third (which you can pressure/deny with hydras very well) i make huge transition into mutas. Its really powerful. Third is taken after you reach saturation at your natural. This is also very well doable by 14 pool, no need for lower pool if you dont like it. If protoss for some reason goes for a 2 base fast colossi push you should react with a spire asap instead of committing to hydras. This is easily scoutable tho and very rare nowadays. I faced almost every build there is (all possible 2 base allins as well as macro games with tripple stargate/templars and lots of stalkers/etc) and it really seems to work vs everything, even on high level I'll think about writing a good guide however im very lazy with stuff like this :D Show nested quote +On February 20 2013 14:59 Meteo Rain wrote:
It's funny because Hydras are IN, so I can get free wins by doing 3base 14min 180pop 3colossus stalker push and win easily.
It doesn't matter if they have corruptors or lings because both lings and hydras die to colossus and since they cant sustain a lot my stalkers will be able to shoot corruptors faster since the ground dies faster. I would bet money that won't work. Not only that muta hydra is much more mobile than your colossi based army (which makes baseracing quite easy), your timing will be also significantly weaker when hydra ling delays your third (another reason why hydra ling into muta is much better than muta into hydra). The goal from going ling hydra in midgame is EXACTLY to force you into colossi, which makes it the last thing you wanna do.
its not coinflippy to go muta first. you just have to be really careful with ur mutas and expand faster then normal. he will either over commit to phenoix and u can expand freely while setting up for hydras or he under commits to phenoixs and u can micro around them and do a lot of damage. 4 phenoixs is not an issuse for mutas to deal with if u are careful. also late game ur going to want some corruptors agasint a stargate opener to deal with voids and tempest so getting spire fast for upgrades is a plus too
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sounds like a meta build to me. I'm not sure in the long run how viable this strat may be, but I think it's definitely a good one considering the meta right now is to go skytoss and colossi isn't really the go-to strat any more. If this build becomes meta, then toss will have to think about going colossi again which to me is a good thing because it means there are several different approaches to winning in ZvP. And if toss goes coloss and zerg scouts a robo, then instead they can go swarm host. At least, SH sounds like the appropriate response to robo considering the guides I've read saying that SH is pretty decent against colossi builds. Anyways, this type of build clashing will make ZvP really fun to watch at high level imo.
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On February 21 2013 03:46 psychotics wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2013 21:07 doggy wrote:I dont like the way the OP plays, psychotics style seems better. However, hydra into muta is a lot stronger than everything you mentioned. The problem with going muta first is that its coinflippish and you straight out die to a lot of timings, hydra ling allows you to survive all these and forces your opponent into robo units. Short explanation on the build itself: I also start with a 11 overpool into 3.30 gas, 5.00 ling speed and 6.00 lair into hydras. As soon as protoss either goes for a robo bay or takes a third (which you can pressure/deny with hydras very well) i make huge transition into mutas. Its really powerful. Third is taken after you reach saturation at your natural. This is also very well doable by 14 pool, no need for lower pool if you dont like it. If protoss for some reason goes for a 2 base fast colossi push you should react with a spire asap instead of committing to hydras. This is easily scoutable tho and very rare nowadays. I faced almost every build there is (all possible 2 base allins as well as macro games with tripple stargate/templars and lots of stalkers/etc) and it really seems to work vs everything, even on high level I'll think about writing a good guide however im very lazy with stuff like this :D On February 20 2013 14:59 Meteo Rain wrote:
It's funny because Hydras are IN, so I can get free wins by doing 3base 14min 180pop 3colossus stalker push and win easily.
It doesn't matter if they have corruptors or lings because both lings and hydras die to colossus and since they cant sustain a lot my stalkers will be able to shoot corruptors faster since the ground dies faster. I would bet money that won't work. Not only that muta hydra is much more mobile than your colossi based army (which makes baseracing quite easy), your timing will be also significantly weaker when hydra ling delays your third (another reason why hydra ling into muta is much better than muta into hydra). The goal from going ling hydra in midgame is EXACTLY to force you into colossi, which makes it the last thing you wanna do. its not coinflippy to go muta first. you just have to be really careful with ur mutas and expand faster then normal. he will either over commit to phenoix and u can expand freely while setting up for hydras or he under commits to phenoixs and u can micro around them and do a lot of damage. 4 phenoixs is not an issuse for mutas to deal with if u are careful. also late game ur going to want some corruptors agasint a stargate opener to deal with voids and tempest so getting spire fast for upgrades is a plus too
You did understand me wrong i guess. However, for sure against any kind of opening where you can get the mutas out its not coinflippish. But what about timings hit before you have mutas? some of them just straight out kill you. furthermore, if your opponent goes for a quick third (which is the second best option vs muta, the very best is still straight out kill them before) you will have a harder time too. ~10 hydras in the beginning tho with some lings can hold of any pre-muta timings AND deny the third, which puts you in the best spot possible to transition into muta play.
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You need to make sure the protoss doesn't transition in time to Colossus. You have a window from when he sees the phoenixes til when he will have his colossus out
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EPT
