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On February 16 2013 03:46 Lobotomist wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2013 01:25 Existor wrote:What you're saying is ridiculous. Isn't it better to redesign it with basic tips, like: If you look closely he scouts with overlords all the time, even lost one at the start aka "Scout with overlords alltime, if not, use zerglings" It's not a part of build order, it's just a good tip for all players. Why it can't be a part of all other builds? Aren't zergs need scouting alltime in other builds? What do you expect? 14 Evolution chamber 15 Hatchery? Don't be ridiculous. No, but something really new. In WoL we got 7RR for example, and sometimes later some variations of that build. Terran can develop new strategies around Hellion/Widow Mine/Reaper harassing or pushes. For example Zergs trying to create build around early burrow. Thats more interesting, than standard Roach push with usual 15 hatchery opener with 10 roach push. Yes they start from 15 hatchery too, but after that we can see some new play style, really new and not a parody to old builds from WoL. I'm not against your guides, but I want to see something really fresh and HotS'ish, that can't be done in WoL. That build order from 1st post can be repeated in WoL too, so why name it "Heart of the Swarm Build Order" yeah Lowko, why didn't you make TLO do a 6 pool into 4 base viper/swarmhost/hydra? I'm disappointed! /end sarcasm. I'm glad to see what pros are doing in zvt to deal with the more aggressive options available to terran in HotS. I'll try this out.
I was thinking about that. But first I'll do the triple evo upgrade before pool build that is very awesome right now. Oh wait... That one is also possible in WoL. Dang it! Triple upgrade burrow before hatchery it is.
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On February 15 2013 23:52 ALPINA wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2013 23:36 Existor wrote:On February 15 2013 22:07 Lowko wrote:On February 15 2013 22:04 Existor wrote:
15 hatchery and 16 pool? And whats unique in this build order? Is that really how far you got..? :/ I got it like another standard opener. I can see 15 hatchery and 16 pool in many games, not only from TLO, and making them unique and naming "TLO Strat" is a bit wrong, I think, because he's just using variation of one of standard builds/openers. I understand that it's hard to develop something new, but this is HotS, why not try to create new builds, completely new, with new play style. All he did was analyze TLO build order and this thread is not called "TLO strat" as far as i can see. Now on build order itself, he gets such a late gas at 5 min and 5:30 spine crawler? It looks like he would die to hellion harass as well as reaper harass, because all he had up until 6 min was 2 queens and no speed. First roaches come at 7 minute and still no speed, dunno it's super greedy build, which can't be really used as a standart build whatsoever.
I'm actually surprised you think 5 minute gas is late. That is completely standard, hell there are zergs who get their gas at 6 minutes and don't die to hellion harass either.
People who delay their gas normally get 4 queens and a fast third if they are delaying their gas till 6 anyway. It's not hard to defend verse hellion harass with late gas either.
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I am curious as to what people expect from Zerg in HOTS, you basically have the same crap units as in WOL and on top of that the other two races have even more new forms of early harass. Its business as usually for Zergs i am afraid.
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On February 16 2013 05:09 Topdoller wrote:
I am curious as to what people expect from Zerg in HOTS, you basically have the same crap units as in WOL and on top of that the other two races have even more new forms of early harass. Its business as usually for Zergs i am afraid.
i actually find the overlord speed quite useful on t1. Generally you have to either go fast lair or make a blind roach/bane nest but now you can go roach warren and skip bane nest and delay lair for about 2 min which is huge imo. if the terran goes full mech you can scout it way in time.
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On February 16 2013 04:31 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2013 23:52 ALPINA wrote:On February 15 2013 23:36 Existor wrote:On February 15 2013 22:07 Lowko wrote:On February 15 2013 22:04 Existor wrote:
15 hatchery and 16 pool? And whats unique in this build order? Is that really how far you got..? :/ I got it like another standard opener. I can see 15 hatchery and 16 pool in many games, not only from TLO, and making them unique and naming "TLO Strat" is a bit wrong, I think, because he's just using variation of one of standard builds/openers. I understand that it's hard to develop something new, but this is HotS, why not try to create new builds, completely new, with new play style. All he did was analyze TLO build order and this thread is not called "TLO strat" as far as i can see. Now on build order itself, he gets such a late gas at 5 min and 5:30 spine crawler? It looks like he would die to hellion harass as well as reaper harass, because all he had up until 6 min was 2 queens and no speed. First roaches come at 7 minute and still no speed, dunno it's super greedy build, which can't be really used as a standart build whatsoever. I'm actually surprised you think 5 minute gas is late. That is completely standard, hell there are zergs who get their gas at 6 minutes and don't die to hellion harass either. People who delay their gas normally get 4 queens and a fast third if they are delaying their gas till 6 anyway. It's not hard to defend verse hellion harass with late gas either.
Sure, but it's late considering he got only 3 queens and very late spine.
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I undetstand that you want to get some viewers, but this is shady and the negative responses you get are somewhat justified.
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Thank you OP for this build. It may not be the most inventive strat in HOTS yet but its something. Everyone is looking for builds to do to get to a point where you can try some new units and not get run over. This is the build I use against Terran so i can try some cool stuff out and not feel like im about to get run over. With proper scouting this is a very safe and fun build to execute.
Everyone scrutinizing OP from this go back to your balance whining threads and let the big boys discuss the real game. If you have something to say, fine, if it is negative that is ok to but provide a replay. Or some real proof.
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On February 16 2013 06:52 TigerKarl wrote:
I undetstand that you want to get some viewers, but this is shady and the negative responses you get are somewhat justified.
I really don't understand...
This build actually fixes problems that people are having in early game ZvT. It helped me beat top level Terrans in HotS and I just wanted to share. Right now there are new T openers that are very scary and that you simply cannot beat with the 'old' Queen speedling double upgrade kind of stuff. Once again, I'd love to get some feedback because I really don't get how this is 'shady'. I'd like to improve.
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On February 16 2013 06:52 TigerKarl wrote:
I undetstand that you want to get some viewers, but this is shady and the negative responses you get are somewhat justified.
1.) You don't know the definition of the word shady.
2.) The negative responses aren't even remotely justified.
3.) He's producing content, and as far as I am aware, you are not.
Thanks for this lowko =)
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On February 16 2013 08:06 PanN wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2013 06:52 TigerKarl wrote:
I undetstand that you want to get some viewers, but this is shady and the negative responses you get are somewhat justified. 1.) You don't know the definition of the word shady. 2.) The negative responses aren't even remotely justified. 3.) He's producing content, and as far as I am aware, you are not. Thanks for this lowko =)
On February 16 2013 07:05 Niska wrote:
Thank you OP for this build. It may not be the most inventive strat in HOTS yet but its something. Everyone is looking for builds to do to get to a point where you can try some new units and not get run over. This is the build I use against Terran so i can try some cool stuff out and not feel like im about to get run over. With proper scouting this is a very safe and fun build to execute.
Everyone scrutinizing OP from this go back to your balance whining threads and let the big boys discuss the real game. If you have something to say, fine, if it is negative that is ok to but provide a replay. Or some real proof.
Thanks. 
On February 16 2013 06:22 ALPINA wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2013 04:31 blade55555 wrote:On February 15 2013 23:52 ALPINA wrote:On February 15 2013 23:36 Existor wrote:On February 15 2013 22:07 Lowko wrote:On February 15 2013 22:04 Existor wrote:
15 hatchery and 16 pool? And whats unique in this build order? Is that really how far you got..? :/ I got it like another standard opener. I can see 15 hatchery and 16 pool in many games, not only from TLO, and making them unique and naming "TLO Strat" is a bit wrong, I think, because he's just using variation of one of standard builds/openers. I understand that it's hard to develop something new, but this is HotS, why not try to create new builds, completely new, with new play style. All he did was analyze TLO build order and this thread is not called "TLO strat" as far as i can see. Now on build order itself, he gets such a late gas at 5 min and 5:30 spine crawler? It looks like he would die to hellion harass as well as reaper harass, because all he had up until 6 min was 2 queens and no speed. First roaches come at 7 minute and still no speed, dunno it's super greedy build, which can't be really used as a standart build whatsoever. I'm actually surprised you think 5 minute gas is late. That is completely standard, hell there are zergs who get their gas at 6 minutes and don't die to hellion harass either. People who delay their gas normally get 4 queens and a fast third if they are delaying their gas till 6 anyway. It's not hard to defend verse hellion harass with late gas either. Sure, but it's late considering he got only 3 queens and very late spine.
No, it was not late because he actually knew what was going on. TLO did play this very save with 3 Queens considering he scouted 1 rax cc.. What could the Terran possibly throw at him besides 2 Hellions before the Spine crawler was finished?
It's okay to be stubborn, but either accept your 'loss' when you hear the truth, or come with solid evidence.
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On February 16 2013 05:14 agahamsorr0w wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2013 05:09 Topdoller wrote:
I am curious as to what people expect from Zerg in HOTS, you basically have the same crap units as in WOL and on top of that the other two races have even more new forms of early harass. Its business as usually for Zergs i am afraid. i actually find the overlord speed quite useful on t1. Generally you have to either go fast lair or make a blind roach/bane nest but now you can go roach warren and skip bane nest and delay lair for about 2 min which is huge imo. if the terran goes full mech you can scout it way in time.
Pneumatic Carapace takes 60 seconds to research and costs 100 gas.
A Lair takes 80 seconds to research and also 100 gas.
An Overseer takes 17 seconds to morph and 50 gas.
I've not really come across a strategy where I would choose overlord speed over a lair. The real difference between both scout timings would be 47 seconds (which is a lot) but I've never really had to scout anything that early on anyway, considering how many new options a lair gives.
I'm really curious how you spent your gas in ZvT and when you take it. I'd love to experiment with it some more. Let me know please.
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I guess the major problem I have with this post is that you're posting a generic roach build and don't really talk about the purposes of the build, what it actually "solves" in HotS, and how to actually execute it other than a build order. You don't say "use this against a 1 rax expand", or anything else.
Terran CAN have siege tanks out for this push (with siege mode), which would completely shut your roach aggression down. A decent amount of widow mines also would hurt your plan a bit.
You're pushing out with no justification, and you're not explaining why TLO might actually do this build. If you posted what situations you want to push into the T's base, what you should watch out for, or anything else, this would be a worthwhile post. Even if you posted something like "sac an overlord around x time to see if he's going hellbat drops, and stay in your base with a few roaches if he is" or something like that, it would be better.
I see no difference between this and another generic build order post.
This is an example of an interesting build post, and NOT just because it uses Swarm Hosts:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=398321
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On February 16 2013 08:19 Lowko wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2013 05:14 agahamsorr0w wrote:On February 16 2013 05:09 Topdoller wrote:
I am curious as to what people expect from Zerg in HOTS, you basically have the same crap units as in WOL and on top of that the other two races have even more new forms of early harass. Its business as usually for Zergs i am afraid. i actually find the overlord speed quite useful on t1. Generally you have to either go fast lair or make a blind roach/bane nest but now you can go roach warren and skip bane nest and delay lair for about 2 min which is huge imo. if the terran goes full mech you can scout it way in time. Pneumatic Carapace takes 60 seconds to research and costs 100 gas. A Lair takes 80 seconds to research and also 100 gas. An Overseer takes 17 seconds to morph and 50 gas. I've not really come across a strategy where I would choose overlord speed over a lair. The real difference between both scout timings would be 47 seconds (which is a lot) but I've never really had to scout anything that early on anyway, considering how many new options a lair gives. I'm really curious how you spent your gas in ZvT and when you take it. I'd love to experiment with it some more. Let me know please.
I use the overlord scout to decide if he goes bio or mech. My playstyles vs both are quite different so I like to be able to scout him before I make the decision. Also, I can drone my 3rd faster which is always a good thing.
And I can scout an armory if he goes for one and react to a battlehellion drop more easily because I see it coming.
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On February 16 2013 11:11 agahamsorr0w wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2013 08:19 Lowko wrote:On February 16 2013 05:14 agahamsorr0w wrote:On February 16 2013 05:09 Topdoller wrote:
I am curious as to what people expect from Zerg in HOTS, you basically have the same crap units as in WOL and on top of that the other two races have even more new forms of early harass. Its business as usually for Zergs i am afraid. i actually find the overlord speed quite useful on t1. Generally you have to either go fast lair or make a blind roach/bane nest but now you can go roach warren and skip bane nest and delay lair for about 2 min which is huge imo. if the terran goes full mech you can scout it way in time. Pneumatic Carapace takes 60 seconds to research and costs 100 gas. A Lair takes 80 seconds to research and also 100 gas. An Overseer takes 17 seconds to morph and 50 gas. I've not really come across a strategy where I would choose overlord speed over a lair. The real difference between both scout timings would be 47 seconds (which is a lot) but I've never really had to scout anything that early on anyway, considering how many new options a lair gives. I'm really curious how you spent your gas in ZvT and when you take it. I'd love to experiment with it some more. Let me know please. I use the overlord scout to decide if he goes bio or mech. My playstyles vs both are quite different so I like to be able to scout him before I make the decision. Also, I can drone my 3rd faster which is always a good thing. And I can scout an armory if he goes for one and react to a battlehellion drop more easily because I see it coming.
Do you feel the gas investment is really worth it though considering how many possibilities a lair gives for just 17 more seconds? Or maybe burrow for the same price? Burrow can also be used to deny bases.
I think it would be cool to upgrade overlord speed which included creep dropping as well, in that case it would be so much more valuable with certain timing pushes, retreating, attack paths, denying bases etc.
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On February 16 2013 16:25 Lowko wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2013 11:11 agahamsorr0w wrote:On February 16 2013 08:19 Lowko wrote:On February 16 2013 05:14 agahamsorr0w wrote:On February 16 2013 05:09 Topdoller wrote:
I am curious as to what people expect from Zerg in HOTS, you basically have the same crap units as in WOL and on top of that the other two races have even more new forms of early harass. Its business as usually for Zergs i am afraid. i actually find the overlord speed quite useful on t1. Generally you have to either go fast lair or make a blind roach/bane nest but now you can go roach warren and skip bane nest and delay lair for about 2 min which is huge imo. if the terran goes full mech you can scout it way in time. Pneumatic Carapace takes 60 seconds to research and costs 100 gas. A Lair takes 80 seconds to research and also 100 gas. An Overseer takes 17 seconds to morph and 50 gas. I've not really come across a strategy where I would choose overlord speed over a lair. The real difference between both scout timings would be 47 seconds (which is a lot) but I've never really had to scout anything that early on anyway, considering how many new options a lair gives. I'm really curious how you spent your gas in ZvT and when you take it. I'd love to experiment with it some more. Let me know please. I use the overlord scout to decide if he goes bio or mech. My playstyles vs both are quite different so I like to be able to scout him before I make the decision. Also, I can drone my 3rd faster which is always a good thing. And I can scout an armory if he goes for one and react to a battlehellion drop more easily because I see it coming. Do you feel the gas investment is really worth it though considering how many possibilities a lair gives for just 17 more seconds? Or maybe burrow for the same price? Burrow can also be used to deny bases. I think it would be cool to upgrade overlord speed which included creep dropping as well, in that case it would be so much more valuable with certain timing pushes, retreating, attack paths, denying bases etc.
Yeah the overlord speed is i feel one of the most useful upgrades you can get at the moment because I can actually scout any kind of all in on 2 base fast enough.Getting overlord speed is 50 minerals less than lair and if you make overseer, 100 min 50 gas less. I rather use a build where that extra gas is converted in minerals and drone my 3rd faster.
Proper creepspread is ofcourse a must.
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On February 16 2013 09:07 TheSambassador wrote:I guess the major problem I have with this post is that you're posting a generic roach build and don't really talk about the purposes of the build, what it actually "solves" in HotS, and how to actually execute it other than a build order. You don't say "use this against a 1 rax expand", or anything else. Terran CAN have siege tanks out for this push (with siege mode), which would completely shut your roach aggression down. A decent amount of widow mines also would hurt your plan a bit. You're pushing out with no justification, and you're not explaining why TLO might actually do this build. If you posted what situations you want to push into the T's base, what you should watch out for, or anything else, this would be a worthwhile post. Even if you posted something like "sac an overlord around x time to see if he's going hellbat drops, and stay in your base with a few roaches if he is" or something like that, it would be better. I see no difference between this and another generic build order post. This is an example of an interesting build post, and NOT just because it uses Swarm Hosts: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=398321
He very clearly states in the video that the build is for DEFENSE and the decision to attack was made after determining that the terran was not going to be aggressive.
He also explains that it is a general purpose build that can handle virtually all early meta-game attacks, and therefor has no reason to further specify when exactly to use the build, going so far as to call the roaches "blind". It's not exactly a complicated build that requires constant tweaks based on seamless scouting.
Builds like this do have a renewed relevance on a scale never seen in WoL due to the new viability of roach/hydra, and the diminishing effectiveness of ling infestor, making the attack far less "all-in." We need to explore the possibilities, especially the transitions, with new eyes.
I feel like people are trying way to hard to be elitist.
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EPT
