Hey guys! Im a mid-high master protoss player really struggeling to deal with mutas in HotS! I scouted him at 7-25 and saw early gases at 3rd and even there i was suspecting mutas and then i saw the spire with an observer later, i just have no idea how to react. He safely drones while containg and widdeling down my army and killing my templars untill he rolls me over with maxed muta ling.

http://drop.sc/304216

What i couldve done better:
- I think my opening maybe is not viable anymore since i just kinda made some improvemnts on it from WoL and i guess robo isnt as strong in HotS anymore.
- Shouldve addeed on more gates earlier instead of cannons.
- Tried going pheonix when i saw spire??

Any advice would be great!

Obamanation666

United States70 Posts

February 12 2013 16:57 GMT

I watched Babynight (P) and Nerchio (Z) last night @ MLG, and there was some discussion regarding the viability of Blink, Robo, Storm play against Muta in HOTS. Initially in the game, Nerchio was able to contain Babynight to three bases with his muta while he spined like mad on Babynights front door and essentially took the entire map. To Axeltoss and my shock, Babynight was able to survive the 40+ muta and ling + bling play with blink stalkers and archons. The only reason he survived was due to his superior upgrades. He was way ahead in that regard. Once he hit about 150 food. He was able to break through the spine wall, take his fourth, and then begin to mass his skytoss army; later, he went on to win the game. So to answer your question, yes robo, blink, archon is still viable, but eventually, you have to transition into skytoss if they start throwing spines and swarmhosts into the mix.

Vlare

748 Posts

February 12 2013 17:10 GMT

I don't have much problems vs Mutas, Depending on the map. Take a quick~ third, upgrades, storm blink archons. Do your best to not take too much damage. +3 archons are very unforgiving to ling/muta. For what it's worth I'm an 1150~ Masters Protoss on the hots ladder currently.

Tuczniak

1561 Posts

February 12 2013 17:17 GMT

On February 13 2013 01:57 Obamanation666 wrote:
I watched Babynight (P) and Nerchio (Z) last night @ MLG, and there was some discussion regarding the viability of Blink, Robo, Storm play against Muta in HOTS. Initially in the game, Nerchio was able to contain Babynight to three bases with his muta while he spined like mad on Babynights front door and essentially took the entire map. To Axeltoss and my shock, Babynight was able to survive the 40+ muta and ling + bling play with blink stalkers and archons. The only reason he survived was due to his superior upgrades. He was way ahead in that regard. Once he hit about 150 food. He was able to break through the spine wall, take his fourth, and then begin to mass his skytoss army; later, he went on to win the game. So to answer your question, yes robo, blink, archon is still viable, but eventually, you have to transition into skytoss if they start throwing spines and swarmhosts into the mix.

Mentioning that game isn't very helpful I think. Nerchio was playing very bad. Maybe he was trolling, I don't know. But Babyknight would have probably just died to muta/ling, atfter he lost so many probes (if Nerchio didn't try to do who knows what). I'm not sure what the best response is, but I wouldn't look for it there.

Obamanation666

United States70 Posts

February 12 2013 19:43 GMT

Maybe that game wasn't the best example, but can you give me a single good example that is an actual PRO League game? No you can't, because this one of the first ones. Neither side played perfectly, but you can get a rough idea about the viability of blink stalker robo from this game.

Their are a few keys to be noted here.

1) This was a map that toss could turtle easily on 3 bases, so this might not work on a map where your 3rd is wide open.
2) MSC is critical in this matchup. You have to protect it because you will need every bit of it's energy for the nexus cannon, which is absolutely clutch. Not to mention, if your caught way out of position, you can recall and prevent gg.
3) You have to protect a small group of sentries, so that ling bling can't bust through your front door.
4) You have to stay ahead in upgrades, which you should be able to do, given you fend off the harass well enough.
5) Get aggressive right before the zerg begins to transition into his higher tech units. I would say a minimum of upgraded 150 food of stalker archon will be necessary to fight a maxed ling, bling, muta army. Obviously, if your fending off the muta army your going to want to transition faster into storm. If your struggling, you will likely need the archon's first.
6) try not to spread your fire out. Make sure your focus firing on the muta.
7) Begin your transition into an appropriate counter right before you go into aggression mode and take a 4th.

You can knock the replay all you want, but the fact is, their aren't anymore out their at a pro event event. No one knows what the hell is going on at this point in the game. It's way too early to tell, but this game does provide insight.

For whats its worth.... I'm a master's Protoss.

ALPINA

3791 Posts

February 12 2013 20:14 GMT

Just open stargate phoenix and you are good vs. mutas.

Fus

Sweden1112 Posts

February 12 2013 20:33 GMT

I feel like blink stalkers just dont cut it anymore vs mutalisks. Your first problem is that you need to scout it early, use the new scouting tools you got in hots, ms core and hallucinated phoenix makes scouting very simple. Early signs is like you said, early 6 gases or staying on 2 bases for a long time. What i do vs mutalisks is get a stargate if i see that zerg delays his third and get phoenixes. Also get some cannons and take a third and just try to fend of the mutalisks while trying to get a good unit composition, archon and storm is like you probably know very good vs mutalisks, colossus not so much.

ant-1

Canada149 Posts

February 12 2013 20:41 GMT

On February 13 2013 05:33 Fus wrote:
I feel like blink stalkers just dont cut it anymore vs mutalisks. Your first problem is that you need to scout it early, use the new scouting tools you got in hots, ms core and hallucinated phoenix makes scouting very simple. Early signs is like you said, early 6 gases or staying on 2 bases for a long time. What i do vs mutalisks is get a stargate if i see that zerg delays his third and get phoenixes. Also get some cannons and take a third and just try to fend of the mutalisks while trying to get a good unit composition, archon and storm is like you probably know very good vs mutalisks, colossus not so much.

I agree that blink stalkers is not enough. I myself have trouble vs mutas. But I would advise against getting a stargate versus a two-basing zerg, because most of the time it'll be for the famous swarm host contain. Phoenixes are not very good against SH because very quickly he'll protect them with hydras. You need colossi in this case. Scouting is very very important against two-basing zergs. third cancel is gonna happen (you read it here first ^^).

iggym

United States49 Posts

February 12 2013 20:58 GMT

Reactionary stargate off the 5th/6th gas will *not* get phoenix out in time unless the Zerg has an off build... spire usually starts before gas. You'll be way behind, the mutas will wreck you as you're trying to defend with neither enough phoenix nor stalkers, and then they'll have time to mix in corruptors. Stick to stalker/templar/archon when you open robo.

ant-1

Canada149 Posts

February 12 2013 21:09 GMT

#10

On February 13 2013 05:58 iggym wrote:
Reactionary stargate off the 5th/6th gas will *not* get phoenix out in time unless the Zerg has an off build... spire usually starts before gas. You'll be way behind, the mutas will wreck you as you're trying to defend with neither enough phoenix nor stalkers, and then they'll have time to mix in corruptors. Stick to stalker/templar/archon when you open robo.

I've seen babyknight do it. It works, you have to scout it before the first mutas are at your door, but with stalkers and the planetary nexus you can avoid taking too much damage. Phoenixes are even better now and you can avoid losing much if you're careful. Because frankly now mutas will have regenerated your stalker shots while moving from base to base and they can dodge storm quite easily.