EPTand they are:
Deathball syndrome
Incoming too high
High ground advantage
David Kim on potential beta changes (Feb 4th,2013) - Page 14
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Garmer
1286 Posts
and they are: Deathball syndrome Incoming too high High ground advantage | ||
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Enki
United States2548 Posts
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it_is_rizzo
Armenia12 Posts
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vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
On February 05 2013 18:26 Belha wrote: No. Oracle is designed to beat only ground light units AND Oracle cost much more brute cost and tech than 5 marines. Except you forget that oracle is also faster, is air so it ignores terrain. So basically the Protoss chooses when to fight and can retreat any time. That in itself is a huge advantage. So you can't just look at cost when looking at unit v unit fights. | ||
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Grubbegrabbn
Sweden174 Posts
On February 05 2013 04:38 virpi wrote: the overlord speed change won't affect the game. 100 gas pre-lair are a lot of money. I'd like to see some work done to the hydra. The speed upgrade is neat, but hydras are still kinda weak. envision change is cool, spore change will make later spires viable vs. fast muta players. spores won't do that much against big flocks, though. Assuming you're not 1-basing, you now have the option to research OL speed while lair is morphing, no? Once lair complete you can opt to get burrow + transport right away for some sort of crazy speed overlord drop burrow thingy. | ||
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Warpish
834 Posts
I'm bothered with the lack of creativity from Blizzard. The Oracle 's Pulsar Beam, in essence, is equal to the Void Ray's Prismatic Alignment. On top of that add two vision spells to the Oracle. What is their actual plan for this unit? Firebats could be healed with Medivacs not Hellbats. What's next? In LotV Medivacs can heal Command Centers and Turrets? | ||
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ETisME
12387 Posts
On February 05 2013 15:56 blade55555 wrote: I don't see why it has to be nerfed. Considering bigger issues and I don't see many zergs do that composition from watching streams. Skytoss needs to be looked at first, same with millennium falcons (speed medivacs). Nono, I didn't really mean it needs to be nerfed. I just meant the 3 units need some tweaking, blizzard have long talked about making overseer and corruptor more interesting. I certainly was expecting some change to the corruptor more than anything else, a change would be nice before the game roll out. The swarm host as an unit issues were discussed a lot in other thread. Personally I just want something different to it because I find it to be quite a boring/annoying unit to use/play against. Now that you mentioned it, the swarm host corruptor and overseer unit composition I dislike as well, I feel like it is like a DT blink stalker vs Zerg ball in earlier stage of WoL. It's an abusive unit composition by just constantly eliminating the detection unit of the opponent. As for skytoss, I don't think Blizzard will nerf it anytime after the game is released. I was actually expecting Zerg to receive a buff in some of their AA units so that muta won't be this dominate in ZvZ and has a better chance against late game ultra air vs air deathball situation. It looks like Blizzard is taking the "let's see how balance roll out when the metagame stablise" approach in this issue. I certainly hope one day Zerg will have a good air deathball to deal with Sky terran and Sky toss. | ||
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Deleted User 261926
960 Posts
On February 05 2013 07:58 CoR wrote: jaeh so colossi because absolue useless ^^ sounds right ... are you kidding ? you are assuming something without having ground to do so. I am sure there is a way to buff the corruptor against void rays without having them destroying colossi completely. an example is the spell that was suggested in OneGoal: create scourge (and don't make it hit colossi obviously). | ||
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PVJ
Hungary5214 Posts
On February 05 2013 21:55 vthree wrote: Except you forget that oracle is also faster, is air so it ignores terrain. So basically the Protoss chooses when to fight and can retreat any time. That in itself is a huge advantage. So you can't just look at cost when looking at unit v unit fights. Exactly which is why the flat base rate of air units should have been never as big as they eventually got. | ||
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Insoleet
France1806 Posts
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Esper
United States87 Posts
On February 05 2013 22:02 Grubbegrabbn wrote: Assuming you're not 1-basing, you now have the option to research OL speed while lair is morphing, no? Once lair complete you can opt to get burrow + transport right away for some sort of crazy speed overlord drop burrow thingy. Moving overlord speed to hatch does literally nothing to increase the speed that you can do drop play. The ventral sacs upgrade is twice as long, OL speed was never a limiting factor. That being said, what it DOES let you do is get OL speed and do a quick scout so once you hit lair you know if drops is a good investment or not. The biggest problem with drop play is that to do it early (so you would have a timing advantage) you have to blindly guess if the player is going to be prepped for it plus OL speed was such a dead giveaway. It lets you play reactive which is a good thing. | ||
Zelniq
United States7166 Posts
I never understood that really why zerg only gets 1 ground-to-air unit which imo makes the best sort of gameplay (as opposed to air-to-air), since it utilizes map terrain features and makes it so only 1 side gets the bonus of circumventing terrain. terran/protoss each now have 3 ground-to-air units, marine/thor/widowmine, stalker/sentry/archon. And our 1 ground-to-air unit isn't even very good still, vs 3 of the 5 protoss air units (and horrible vs BCs), and it's the only 3 protoss air that will be massed vs zerg (so, not oracles nor tempests, although note oracles actually melt hydras fast too, they just die faster if theyre the ones being targeted. So if hydras are attacking something else, the oracles actually pay for themselves several times over with how fast they melt the hydras btw). Furthermore, hydras scale poorly with upgrades is another issue that my want to be looked at. And one big issue i've always had is their horrible attack animation.. their wind-up time is so long, with their attack speed so fast, together it makes them awful for trying to stutter step, limiting what a good player can do with them and it's better to just make them A-move in most cases. The solutions to both of these problems could work well together, as they could reduce their attack speed and simultaneously increase base damage to even it out, but give them +2 per upgrade to make them scale better, and should also fixing their dumb attack wind-up time, allowing for more potential for micro/stutterstepping. I was pretty disappointed when I found out zerg would be getting no new anti-air units in hots, and our current one's 'buff' just isn't enough, as if the only thing that sucked about hydras was their move speed off creep. But like I said they've been so hesitant to change hydras for some reason (they've been lackluster for all of WoL and that's suited them just fine, and make an irrelevant change in hots beta that doesn't effect their damage nor hp). I really only expect them to not make any significant changes to zerg's antiair but instead nerf protoss's air | ||
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dargul
Russian Federation125 Posts
Yesterday it was 15 t 15 z 20 p. So stop crying and start training. Each race has something imbalanced - each race crying about imba of other 2 races - sounds like damn balance to me  | ||
Olli
Austria24417 Posts
And seriously, this is BETA. It's mostly played by people who haven't had much success at the end of WoL right now, the rest is still mostly playing WoL. If say someone like Idra, Naniwa or whoever is complaining about certain aspects of BETA HotS right now that's cool and all and they might be right, certainly. But I still prefer the judgment of top korean players when they get their hands on the game and start figuring it out. | ||
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spirates
Sweden148 Posts
But the thing is the oracle will run over the mineralline where the marines aren't, kill a few scvs (alot mostly 10+ in the lower leagues cause of slow reaction), even if i oull my scvs instantly BEFORE the oracle is over the mineral line I will loose 4-5 scvs since the oracle is so damn fast, kills scvs in 1 hit and then it dissapears until its energy is back and redo the process. Compare this to a 1base terran vs 2base toss where terran goes Hellbat Drop. It gets shutdown so damn easly. By the time the medivac hits the toss base toss should have mothership core with enough energy for Nexus Attack, and a few other attacking units. First of pull the probes who are faster then the hellbats so wont loose any if pulled instantly, focus medivac. When medivac is dead its GG for terran. As said hellbats are slow as fuck and only have 2 range!! Even a bronze toss can kite those 4 units I would imagine. | ||
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Tuczniak
1561 Posts
On February 05 2013 22:52 dargul wrote: Even if each race had something imbalanced, it would be still imbalanced. Mirror matchups can be imbalanced. Unit can be so bad it's imbalanced. All this is a problem and it doesn't really matter what winrates are, because any imbalance makes the game worse.Gml is unusually balanced now. Just count races in top50. Yesterday it was 15 t 15 z 20 p. So stop crying and start training. Each race has something imbalanced - each race crying about imba of other 2 races - sounds like damn balance to me | ||
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Wertheron
France439 Posts
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-Celestial-
United Kingdom3867 Posts
On February 05 2013 18:18 mongoose22 wrote: IMO you're missing the point of why Mr. Kim makes these posts. He's specifically asking for user feedback about those specific changes. All these other suggestions about what Blizzard should or should not be doing is, one, completely off topic to what was being asked, and two, not going to make much of a dent with the designers when accompanied with such fatalistic predictions. It's like someone asking you, "Do you have the time?" and you respond with "Do I have the time?! Does anyone have the time?! Why didn't you kill that black cat walking in front of me?! We're all going to die! Where's your shotgun?! The Zombie Apocalypse is upon us!!!!" At which point the guy with the question backs away slowly. Wait...you mean its not normal to react like that? How am I "supposed" to respond when people ask for the time then, eh? Answer me that! Although I did wonder why nobody ever stayed around for me to actually tell them the time... On topic: can't help but feel people are getting a little hysterical. Its a patch but theres still time left for substantial changes. Just because they aren't in THIS patch doesn't mean they can't happen. That being said I really feel like that they're constantly dancing around the real issue of infestors and fungals and that is the EFFECT of fungal growth. Not projectile speed. A bit uninspiring as a patch in all honesty. Overlord speed at hatch seems totally pointless (unlike burrow which has some early game utility I can't think of any instance where spending gas on early overlord speed would be worth it). Oracle buff is nice with regard to energy cost but fairly neutral in its actual effect on the game. Spore buff is a result of their own mistakes so...yeah. | ||
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Olli
Austria24417 Posts
On February 05 2013 23:01 spirates wrote: Terran High Master here. From my perspective the most OP unit right now is the Oracle. The most common build for terrans is to fast expand, and when you do this you will have like 4-7 marines when the first oracle comes. A single oracle will slaugther these marines because it does freaking 30dps to them!! But the thing is the oracle will run over the mineralline where the marines aren't, kill a few scvs (alot mostly 10+ in the lower leagues cause of slow reaction), even if i oull my scvs instantly BEFORE the oracle is over the mineral line I will loose 4-5 scvs since the oracle is so damn fast, kills scvs in 1 hit and then it dissapears until its energy is back and redo the process. Compare this to a 1base terran vs 2base toss where terran goes Hellbat Drop. It gets shutdown so damn easly. By the time the medivac hits the toss base toss should have mothership core with enough energy for Nexus Attack, and a few other attacking units. First of pull the probes who are faster then the hellbats so wont loose any if pulled instantly, focus medivac. When medivac is dead its GG for terran. As said hellbats are slow as fuck and only have 2 range!! Even a bronze toss can kite those 4 units I would imagine. Well then maybe you'll have to take a gas and expand with reactor then if anything indicates protoss stargate play. You know, like protoss always has to take gas and get a cyber core before expanding unless they scout something that makes them completely safe and allows them to delay gas and core. Shouldn't be a problem with the new reaper not requiring a tech lab, right? I'm not very familiar with the timings though so it might be difficult for terran to scout it in time. But that's something that probably can be figured out or helped with little tweaks. | ||
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Erik.TheRed
United States1655 Posts
On February 05 2013 23:01 spirates wrote: Terran High Master here. From my perspective the most OP unit right now is the Oracle. The most common build for terrans is to fast expand, and when you do this you will have like 4-7 marines when the first oracle comes. A single oracle will slaugther these marines because it does freaking 30dps to them!! But the thing is the oracle will run over the mineralline where the marines aren't, kill a few scvs (alot mostly 10+ in the lower leagues cause of slow reaction), even if i oull my scvs instantly BEFORE the oracle is over the mineral line I will loose 4-5 scvs since the oracle is so damn fast, kills scvs in 1 hit and then it dissapears until its energy is back and redo the process. Compare this to a 1base terran vs 2base toss where terran goes Hellbat Drop. It gets shutdown so damn easly. By the time the medivac hits the toss base toss should have mothership core with enough energy for Nexus Attack, and a few other attacking units. First of pull the probes who are faster then the hellbats so wont loose any if pulled instantly, focus medivac. When medivac is dead its GG for terran. As said hellbats are slow as fuck and only have 2 range!! Even a bronze toss can kite those 4 units I would imagine. Where marines fail at stopping oracles turrets/mines are very effective and cheap ways to completely shut down protoss air harass in early game. Just because your WoL builds aren't working perfectly against everything in HOTS does not make the game imbalanced. In my opinion hellbat/mine drops with the new medivac boost are just as if not more powerful than oracle harass (all workers dead in a few seconds at an undefended mineral line), especially since those units actually have synergy with your main army better than a few oracles do for protoss. A photon overcharge alone is NOT enough to shut down a 4 hellbat drop especially if you are threatening the front with some other units as well. I'm not suggesting that you tech all the way up to armory and drops on 1 base but opening with a reactor hellion expo so you can get a mine up in your mineral line before expoing seems reasonable. | ||
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