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On January 28 2013 20:21 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2013 18:53 Umpteen wrote:On January 28 2013 06:19 DemigodcelpH wrote:On January 28 2013 05:44 Umpteen wrote:
One thing free units do achieve is getting around the problem of Zerg units being less supply-efficient in a game where 3-base saturation is optimal. Any race can saturate 3 bases, and nobody wants to saturate 4, so once you get to 3 bases the 'get a base ahead and swarm with superior economy' mantra fails. Free units (from infestors, broodlords or now swarm hosts) is a way to simulate being ahead in economy - just like free Terran workers (MULEs) is a way for them to pretend the supply cap is higher, both of which serve (in principle) to balance the concentrated might of a maxed Protoss force. Infestor/BL is perhaps the most supply efficient army in the game, so no. Same thing with Speedlings. I/BL is supply efficient because of free units. Infested Terrans and Broodlings. Thank you for making my point  No you mean "cost efficient"; most Zerg units are extremely supply efficient, and also one word: fungal. Thank you for making my point.
Honestly, I'm not sure I understand what your point is any more. You threw up I/BL as an example of a supply efficient army. I said 'yes it is, because of the free units I/BL spawn'. Take infested terrans away and turn Broodlords into Guardians and you would need to divert supply into other units, yes? Thus I/BL is only a good use of available supply because of free units.
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Well this has been delightful but were missing the main issue here.
KERRIGAN IS BACK!!!
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On January 28 2013 05:13 FeyFey wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2013 04:13 phrenzy wrote:
The problem is range. Zerg units are mainly melee based. In ZvP, roaches are for survival only if you are taking it to late game. Plus zerg range units dont scale well unlike stalkers or marines. If you don't want broodlords or swarm hosts, then buff accordingly. What else can you expect with units that have to be at range 0 to attack. There has to be some way to attack without losing most of your units before they engage. Broodwar Zerg was all about losing 1/3 of your army before they even landed the first hit. Would be happy if we return to those times. But the game is probably to balanced for this. So you kill the first Zerg units when they are already biting at you. But in exchange they don't rip through you if they do get you. It is basically the same thing. But it is easier for the non Zerg to handle the Zerg surround, while it is also easier for the Zerg to not mess up horribly and lose everything. As for free units, Terran has them as well, Protoss too. I think they aren't to bad for gameplay, they actually create quiet a bit of pressure. And I love my patent mule drop behind the Zerg army to trigger Broodlord fail shots, that might even block the infestors from retreating. Or the 4 probe hallucination to shut down a widow mine field. Of course it is hard to balance them especially if players use them as if they were free, not bothering to optimize them. Still waiting for some pro to waste his apm in a stalemate. That will start to create 3 waves of Broodlings via tumors and send them into the opponents army. Range 30 Broodlords are fun! (especially is you are at 220 supply) But I think free units shouldn't be able to fight against non free units on their own. They should support Zerg. Broodlings work fine, they melt away withoutout support. But Locust are small roaches, just like Infested Terrans were small hydras. I think a agree with this, especially the last paragraph. I see the function of 'free' (maybe i'd better call them supplyless) units as them being able to tip the battle in one's favor (because it forces a bad position, or the opponents neglects them altogether), to siege a position or to harass a vital location. In WOL, the it's are used that way, but the problem, i feel, is the sheer amount of units needed to clean it up.
On January 28 2013 05:27 HardlyNever wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2013 04:07 InfCereal wrote:
They're not technically free.
Their cost is the cost of the unit spawning them, and their price goes down the more waves that are produced. Honestly, 200/100 for 2 temporary units is absolutely horrible. But the longer the swarm hosts are alive, the more they're worth it.
I think it's an interesting dynamic, and I have no problem with it being in sc2. This is the response b.net posters are making (silver and gold). Take that for what you will. "Free" may not be the exact term for these units, but everyone knows what I mean. You are just arguing semantics. The issues I raised are still the same, regardless of what you want to call them. The problem is the threshold for them becoming very cost effective is very low (I'd say roughly two waves of locusts, depending on the situation). That is incredibly cost effective for any race, particularly zerg. That is the real issue. I understand what you mean, but please don't make it personal, it makes you look bad.
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I like the free units...brings out the swarm in Heart of the Swarm 
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On January 28 2013 23:24 BigRedDog wrote:I like the free units...brings out the swarm in Heart of the Swarm
it would be funnier if you had something like 4-5 saturated bases and a army of alot of roaches
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On January 28 2013 22:04 Ghanburighan wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I have a feeling that fewer and fewer posters are looking at the original content (also possibly because it's only spoilered in the OP).
Also, too many people cannot seem to resist the urge to quote Heinlein's TANSTAAFL (There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch). We've heard it once, we've heard it five times now.
Where the problems arise in a game of SC2 is the lack of decision-making involved with free units. Take an example. If you engage with a reaper, blink-stalker, zealot-phoenix, or any of the other ''real units'' then you risk losing the money and time that went into making that unit should you lose the engagement. That's what cost-efficiency is: Opponent-cost minus player-cost. With a free unit, you can take an engagement with increased chances that the player-cost is 0 while the opponent-cost is larger than 0.
Now, there are number of way to argue circumstances. For example, if the player tries to IT harass a worker line and gets the burrowed infestor detected and killed, the player-cost is the infestor and the opponent-cost is 0. So, no, a free unit does not magically give you free damage.
Also, if the infestor expends energy at moment x, and then does not have energy to expend at moment y. Then there has been opportunity-cost. One cannot use that unit at moment y. (This does not apply to broodlord due to the speed of broodling attacks and is only marginally relevant for the swarm host.) There's also opportunity cost in terms of alternative tech choices. Going for infestors by cutting spire-tech is going to go badly against a colossus rush, for example.
But those criticisms of the OP are at the end of the negative spectrum. Free units can also do something that's much more rare in terms of ''real units'', they can do 0 player-cost damage. (This is possible with ''real units'' as well, imagine stalkers picking off units but blinking away before taking hull damage.) For example when infestors fire ITs, kill units with them and retreat. As long as the opponent took enough damage not to be able to attack in the next 30 seconds or so, there was no cost to that engagement. There are a number of cases where this is especially relevant and those are base-races and low-eco games. If both players are on low eco, the opponent cannot punish the energy-weakness because he cannot afford to produce the units fast enough.
As with all things SC2, the question is two-fold. First: can the opponents respond in a reasonable manner, which is basically asking whether the composition is OP or not. I don't want to say anything in response to this.
The second is what the OP seems to be talking about: is this rewarding as a design choice? Is it fun to play with and against? I'd join the OP in saying that it is not. It's more rewarding to make decisions with ''real units'' where your inefficient lings might be able to do counter-attack damage or not; or get a surround or not, depending on your ability to micro. And you also need to be able to keep up your macro to play that style. There are problems with this style in SC2 mainly to do with how easy it is to turtle up (I'm looking at Protoss more than Terran with this).
The free unit mechanism replaces the macro aspect and changes the micro-game too. Instead of trying to micro to get good engagements, you try to avoid damage to your unit-producing-units. It does not matter whether you DO damage or not, as long as your UPU's don't take lethal damage. And that micro is not too fun to watch.
Best post in the thread, actually highlights the problems and benefits of the free units and actually read the OP.
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One small suggestion for a change to the Swarmhost that I'm hoping will change the "free units" aspect of the Swarmhost is changing the way it spawns units and the units that it spawns.
Start by giving the Swarmhost energy which does allow some creative counters (HT's and EMP) Giving the Swarmhost energy allows you to change the ability to spawn units, rather than just spawn 2 free Locusts in certain intervals you spawn Locusts based on energy cost
First of all change Locust, them being ranged/slow/high dps is a very poor design for a unit, change the locust to small melee unit with 25 hp, 5 attack damage and 3.2 move speed 1 attack spped (All up to debate)
The actual toggle-able ability would cost
3 EPS (Energy Per Second) and spawn 4 locust every 15 seconds. 4 units for 45 energy. 100 hp, 20dps.
This allows the SH to feel more "swarmy" with more units/faster units without breaking it by making it spawn stupidly high dps units.
Comment Critically please!
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Mostly agree with OP. Perhaps HotS is going to be more difficult for us Protoss players; at least there will be fewer PvPs. I have my own opinion as well, but at the end of the day I can only work with the tools they gave me. My lone, neutral observation as it relates to the game in general is this: Swarm Hosts make me get Colossus earlier.
Reasons:
- They don't encourage air play (They're really good at base trades vs air)
- The threat of sh's almost encourage colossus timing attacks (colossus timing attacks can both preempt sh attacks and handle them!)
- I have to play really safe (READ: inefficient) even if I scout infestor pit since infestor/sh require same building, and at teh same time the improved mutalisk is something that punishes robo play even moreso.
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On January 29 2013 02:06 DaOrks wrote:
One small suggestion for a change to the Swarmhost that I'm hoping will change the "free units" aspect of the Swarmhost is changing the way it spawns units and the units that it spawns.
Start by giving the Swarmhost energy which does allow some creative counters (HT's and EMP) Giving the Swarmhost energy allows you to change the ability to spawn units, rather than just spawn 2 free Locusts in certain intervals you spawn Locusts based on energy cost
First of all change Locust, them being ranged/slow/high dps is a very poor design for a unit, change the locust to small melee unit with 25 hp, 5 attack damage and 3.2 move speed 1 attack spped (All up to debate)
The actual toggle-able ability would cost
3 EPS (Energy Per Second) and spawn 4 locust every 15 seconds. 4 units for 45 energy. 100 hp, 20dps.
This allows the SH to feel more "swarmy" with more units/faster units without breaking it by making it spawn stupidly high dps units.
Comment Critically please!
This will just make the SH trash... Siege tanks, colossi and HTs don't actually care if the unit spawns 2,3 or 6 locusts. With 25hp all locusts will die in one or 2 shots and will never get to the target, the moving speed doesn't matter in this case. Also feedback and emp just hardcounter 200/100/3 unit... Balancing the game with hardcounters is always bad, in this case this is true too.
Swarm Hosts are good units in their current state. They can do serious dmg but only when they are in big numbers. 2 or 3 SH can't do shit. That gives terran and protoss time to answer with tanks or colossi or whatever. On top of that they are not good without support, you can't just leave them in the middle of the map and place your army elsewhere. Zergs have to keep good portion of their army to on top of the HS to protect them. That leaves the back open for drops and warp-ins.
One really good strategy against swarm hosts is to just go around them. Yes they can kill your bases, but it will not be fast for sure. Also terrans can try widow mines vs swarm hosts. It's pretty funny match-up actually... Nobody kills anything.
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"free units" would be a lot more interesting if we had consume....
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On January 29 2013 03:14 Pr0wler wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2013 02:06 DaOrks wrote:
One small suggestion for a change to the Swarmhost that I'm hoping will change the "free units" aspect of the Swarmhost is changing the way it spawns units and the units that it spawns.
Start by giving the Swarmhost energy which does allow some creative counters (HT's and EMP) Giving the Swarmhost energy allows you to change the ability to spawn units, rather than just spawn 2 free Locusts in certain intervals you spawn Locusts based on energy cost
First of all change Locust, them being ranged/slow/high dps is a very poor design for a unit, change the locust to small melee unit with 25 hp, 5 attack damage and 3.2 move speed 1 attack spped (All up to debate)
The actual toggle-able ability would cost
3 EPS (Energy Per Second) and spawn 4 locust every 15 seconds. 4 units for 45 energy. 100 hp, 20dps.
This allows the SH to feel more "swarmy" with more units/faster units without breaking it by making it spawn stupidly high dps units.
Comment Critically please! This will just make the SH trash... Siege tanks, colossi and HTs don't actually care if the unit spawns 2,3 or 6 locusts. With 25hp all locusts will die in one or 2 shots and will never get to the target, the moving speed doesn't matter in this case. Also feedback and emp just hardcounter 200/100/3 unit... Balancing the game with hardcounters is always bad, in this case this is true too. Swarm Hosts are good units in their current state. They can do serious dmg but only when they are in big numbers. 2 or 3 SH can't do shit. That gives terran and protoss time to answer with tanks or colossi or whatever. On top of that they are not good without support, you can't just leave them in the middle of the map and place your army elsewhere. Zergs have to keep good portion of their army to on top of the HS to protect them. That leaves the back open for drops and warp-ins. One really good strategy against swarm hosts is to just go around them. Yes they can kill your bases, but it will not be fast for sure. Also terrans can try widow mines vs swarm hosts. It's pretty funny match-up actually... Nobody kills anything.
So....screw the fact that you need 10-20 of these units so they don't suck 100%! Ya that'll make the game more dynamic, SH are boring and trash as they are right now. Once people learn how to beat them they'll be useless
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I dit not read all the posts before mine, so i will probably repeat what's already been said. I'm quite fond of BigJ's first page analysis of the thing.
Concerning the question if wheter or not those units are free.
This is not really the question. All units cost something to produce in the game, even if indirectly.
Zerg's philosophy fits perfectly, for me, with the idea of units spawning from other units. Actually, it's the concept of baneling, Bl, vigi. So the real problem is the fact they spawn with the conservation of the initial unit, the unit from which they spawn.
Well actually if zerg must get over the supply cap to win a 200 vs 200 battle, it's perfectly legit, since zerg units are supposed to be cost inefficient. So even with a maxed army, a zerg army can't face a proper 200 army from another race (terran/toss).
Now if you tell that's what the zerg repop is for, consider this : zert repop for cost effective units is hard. That's why if zerg gets beaten in a 200/200, there must be openings for the remaining other army to deal damage to the zerg's eco, BUT he can also use zerg mechanics, if he has the bank, to get a better repop. Equilibrium.
Concerning the forcing-colossus-SH-strat :
So no, those units (SH) are not free. They cost the SH whole pack and tech. If you let the zerg mass SH to the point he can kill you with it, then you are just bad. The real question so is : how i prevent the zerg player, when he does this strat, to kill me ? Well, there are plenty of strats you can imagine.
If you think twice, your question is kinda silly, and looks like this one : how do i stop 20 carriers with a mothership at 15 minutes (assuming it's possible). Well if they are in your base, you don't. You just die.
Now the real question is : IF the SH pack gets next to my base, is there any other solution to it but colossus ? Well, depends of the creep spread for the queens, of the bo, the techs. Pros will find out, if they don't, it will be nerfed.
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Free units take away so much from the emphasis on strategy by making cost efficiency irrelevant. Locust and broodlings have no tangible cost and just break the game.
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On January 29 2013 04:42 DaOrks wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2013 03:14 Pr0wler wrote:On January 29 2013 02:06 DaOrks wrote:
One small suggestion for a change to the Swarmhost that I'm hoping will change the "free units" aspect of the Swarmhost is changing the way it spawns units and the units that it spawns.
Start by giving the Swarmhost energy which does allow some creative counters (HT's and EMP) Giving the Swarmhost energy allows you to change the ability to spawn units, rather than just spawn 2 free Locusts in certain intervals you spawn Locusts based on energy cost
First of all change Locust, them being ranged/slow/high dps is a very poor design for a unit, change the locust to small melee unit with 25 hp, 5 attack damage and 3.2 move speed 1 attack spped (All up to debate)
The actual toggle-able ability would cost
3 EPS (Energy Per Second) and spawn 4 locust every 15 seconds. 4 units for 45 energy. 100 hp, 20dps.
This allows the SH to feel more "swarmy" with more units/faster units without breaking it by making it spawn stupidly high dps units.
Comment Critically please! This will just make the SH trash... Siege tanks, colossi and HTs don't actually care if the unit spawns 2,3 or 6 locusts. With 25hp all locusts will die in one or 2 shots and will never get to the target, the moving speed doesn't matter in this case. Also feedback and emp just hardcounter 200/100/3 unit... Balancing the game with hardcounters is always bad, in this case this is true too. Swarm Hosts are good units in their current state. They can do serious dmg but only when they are in big numbers. 2 or 3 SH can't do shit. That gives terran and protoss time to answer with tanks or colossi or whatever. On top of that they are not good without support, you can't just leave them in the middle of the map and place your army elsewhere. Zergs have to keep good portion of their army to on top of the HS to protect them. That leaves the back open for drops and warp-ins. One really good strategy against swarm hosts is to just go around them. Yes they can kill your bases, but it will not be fast for sure. Also terrans can try widow mines vs swarm hosts. It's pretty funny match-up actually... Nobody kills anything. So....screw the fact that you need 10-20 of these units so they don't suck 100%! Ya that'll make the game more dynamic, SH are boring and trash as they are right now. Once people learn how to beat them they'll be useless
People learned to beat a lot of things, like Colossi, Sentries, Hellions, but you still see them being used a lot.
I beg to differ, I think that people haven't learn how to use Swarm Hosts yet. We will see, maybe Blizzard will change the Swarm Hosts in some way, but lately, I've seen them being used more often in different ways, and I like them more and more.
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On January 29 2013 04:47 KimchiNuke wrote:
Free units take away so much from the emphasis on strategy by making cost efficiency irrelevant. Locust and broodlings have no tangible cost and just break the game.
And that's exactly why people hate spider mines in BW!
Wait...
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On January 29 2013 05:11 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2013 04:47 KimchiNuke wrote:
Free units take away so much from the emphasis on strategy by making cost efficiency irrelevant. Locust and broodlings have no tangible cost and just break the game. And that's exactly why people hate spider mines in BW! Wait...
In BW there was a need for multitasking and skill. also the things laid down were independent and not controllable afterwards, making every mine a decisive choice. Here the free units are _not costing_ you anything after purchasing the unit, they only need A-move to spread and kill, they are also blocking movement, and they are attached to the unit which means making a bad decision about its usage doesn't effect you so heavily. It's really much more boring in the way it works compared to the BW mines. Lazy design.
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On January 28 2013 05:34 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2013 04:07 InfCereal wrote:
They're not technically free.
Their cost is the cost of the unit spawning them, and their price goes down the more waves that are produced. Honestly, 200/100 for 2 temporary units is absolutely horrible. But the longer the swarm hosts are alive, the more they're worth it.
I think it's an interesting dynamic, and I have no problem with it being in sc2. This. Of all the "free" units in SC2, locusts are the "least free". Locusts are to swarm hosts what Particle disruptors are for Stalkers. Yes, Locusts are units and particle disruptors are weapons, yet you get neither of them for "free" as you can only buy them together with their carrier. Also they can both do "infinite" damage over time, when you don't destroy the swarm host/stalker. In the end it comes down to locusts "kind of" costing 100/50/1.5 and being "kind of" invincible as trade off for the massive costs. Show nested quote +On January 28 2013 05:27 HardlyNever wrote:On January 28 2013 04:07 InfCereal wrote:
They're not technically free.
Their cost is the cost of the unit spawning them, and their price goes down the more waves that are produced. Honestly, 200/100 for 2 temporary units is absolutely horrible. But the longer the swarm hosts are alive, the more they're worth it.
I think it's an interesting dynamic, and I have no problem with it being in sc2. This is the response b.net posters are making (silver and gold). Take that for what you will. "Free" may not be the exact term for these units, but everyone knows what I mean. You are just arguing semantics. The issues I raised are still the same, regardless of what you want to call them. The problem is the threshold for them becoming very cost effective is very low (I'd say roughly two waves of locusts, depending on the situation). That is incredibly cost effective for any race, particularly zerg. That is the real issue. 2waves of locusts being costeffective is a problem? That's 50seconds of sieging with a swarm host. You know what happens if a siege tank or a clossus sieges you for 50seconds? Also, if anything, people are complaining that Swarm Hosts are NOT costeffective enough and they only become useful when you mass them for a very long time. Also, I don't understand this part This isn't Broodwar. Zerg needs to be just as costeffective as all the other races in SC2. There is basically no income advantage that zerg gets from taking the whole map against 3-4 bases.
^ this last statement is what has been wrong with SC2 from the get go. A player should be absolutely PUNISHED for turtling in 3-4 bases if the Zerg has the rest of the map under control and actively mining. Sadly this is not the case. What was said is so terribly true and a Terran or Protoss on 3-4 bases is just as mineral rich and has all the minerals needed to turtle up and push out at 200/200. In which case it all comes down to the doom confrontation, even with the zerg re-maxing sometime its still not enough due to cost effectiveness, and the Terran or Protoss can just easily take a 4th or steam roll the Zerg after a bad confrontation.
The Dynamics of the game need to shift drastically, sadly I don't see this happening. The Zerg at Diamond+ is just more of the same old same old. Try and hold Terran/Protoss 3-5 all-in's/mid game pushes and if you can do that successfully without loosing to much teach up to Hive and then try to stop / prevent a 3rd or 4th base in most cases and starve out the Terran/Protoss. As a direct assault in most cases is suicide. The Viper / SH has helped this a bit, but at higher levels they hardly get used as the cost to invest in SH is so high any mid game push out right kills you. Now if you can make it to Hive teach and get a doom squad army then maybe okay, but its no different then waiting to hive and pushing out with 8-12 infestors and the rest broodlords in WoL ** barf
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Too me the problem with free units is that the Zerg doesn't give up something to use them. Other races give up supply and time to replace money units to deal with free units. At least infestors lose energy for funguls when they use infested terrans. Hosts on the other hand spew out wave after wave of hard hitting free units. And these things own marines.
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United States7483 Posts
On January 29 2013 05:11 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2013 04:47 KimchiNuke wrote:
Free units take away so much from the emphasis on strategy by making cost efficiency irrelevant. Locust and broodlings have no tangible cost and just break the game. And that's exactly why people hate spider mines in BW! Wait...
Spider mines had a cost, and weren't free. Each vulture got exactly 3, no more or less. So by paying 75 minerals you got 3 spider mines and a vulture (after the upgrade). Now, if the vulture got to spawn an infinite amount of mines, we'd have a problem.
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On January 29 2013 06:04 PVJ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2013 05:11 Thieving Magpie wrote:On January 29 2013 04:47 KimchiNuke wrote:
Free units take away so much from the emphasis on strategy by making cost efficiency irrelevant. Locust and broodlings have no tangible cost and just break the game. And that's exactly why people hate spider mines in BW! Wait... In BW there was a need for multitasking and skill. also the things laid down were independent and not controllable afterwards, making every mine a decisive choice. Here the free units are _not costing_ you anything after purchasing the unit, they only need A-move to spread and kill, they are also blocking movement, and they are attached to the unit which means making a bad decision about its usage doesn't effect you so heavily. It's really much more boring in the way it works compared to the BW mines. Lazy design.
I'm not saying that these units are as good as Spidermines, I'm saying the argument is false because it goes against things that are already accepted as good.
Spidermines are 0 supply units that hit as hard as nukes and block off large sections of the map.
Locus block off, a screen? Takes up supply (the SH)? And are temporary.
They hit less hard than mines, locks down less map space than mines, costs more than mines, and takes up supply (unlike mines)
The problem with SH and Locus is not that Locus are free--the problem is that the interaction isn't interesting.
ranged units+detection clearing a minefield while being pulled apart by Vulture runbys are fun to watch--watching wave after wave of locus get blasted by tanks is not. Not because the locus are free, and not because the locus are OP--it's simply boring for the same reason watching a 6gate all-in is boring.
I'm suggesting that the problem is not that Zerg has free units but that the zerg is not given dynamic and multipurpose free units.
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EPT
