EPTZerg and free units - Page 15
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Falling
Canada11327 Posts
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On February 06 2013 14:30 Falling wrote: Regardless of whether the spawned units should be considered 'free' or not, can it least be agreed that they spawn a lot of things that clutter the screen visually in a way that strictly damage units do not and that they also affect pathing of other units to some extent? Agreed. The major issue of these units is that they are more micro restricting abilities. Imagine if you would, if siege tank attacks spawned a small mecha unit that looks like an scv which then beats shit over the face. Would that be absolutely ridiculous? Of course it would, and it would make getting near the siege tanks much harder. | ||
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scFoX
France454 Posts
On February 06 2013 14:50 Whitewing wrote: Agreed. The major issue of these units is that they are more micro restricting abilities. Imagine if you would, if siege tank attacks spawned a small mecha unit that looks like an scv which then beats shit over the face. Would that be absolutely ridiculous? Of course it would, and it would make getting near the siege tanks much harder. You know, as a zerg I'd almost prefer that as it would mean tanks would deal way less damage and no splash. Banelings are also pretty cool for breaking that sort of artificial barrier. :p | ||
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Spyridon
United States997 Posts
On February 06 2013 13:57 Jarree wrote: Free units are just horrible in spectators point of view. Can you imagine the amazing swarm host micro by the best players in code s? They set the rally point to the exact right spot and the casters go crazy! Same a-move shit as with broodlords, except you don't even have to a-move anymore, just set rally point. I've played against swarm hosts only a couple of times and they didn't seem that good to me. Haven't used them yet myself so don't know, but i'll guess it isn't that fun either. So your complaining about a unit you havent used? Funny how so many people are doing this.. Swarm hosts actually require quite a bit of micro - more micro than the siege units of all the other classes. Also the Locusts move fairly decent speed on creep, and could be manually controlled, basically the locusts themselves require the same amount of micro as Roaches. Funny that people are complaining about them from spectators view, when micro is what makes things entertaining for spectators since it can lead to big plays, and properly using Swarm Hosts is one of the more micro intensive units the race has. People should really wait until they see some pro players using SH before complaining about spectators perspective of units they haven't seen played. Shows the credibility of most of the complaints here.... On February 06 2013 14:50 Whitewing wrote: Imagine if you would, if siege tank attacks spawned a small mecha unit that looks like an scv which then beats shit over the face. Would that be absolutely ridiculous? Of course it would, and it would make getting near the siege tanks much harder. Funny.. As someone said earlier if they took Terrans AoE blasts and gave that instead Terran would be saying they were too weak as a unit. Especially considering they can't even shoot over hills, considering how much that's used to Terrans advantage w/ siege tanks. | ||
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Unsane
Canada170 Posts
On February 06 2013 15:48 Spyridon wrote: more micro than the siege units of all the other classes. I micro my siege tanks all the time, not only do i try to spread them out the best i can, (avoid clumping, getting an areas full width, covering rows well, finding the best positions, aggressively moving them) but i also target fire units, a lot. I tell them to target infestors, higher energy ones too, i target fire units towards the inside of clumps to maximize splash. I pick my targets wisely, saving lower health tanks to a simple A move command thats gotten up close, allowing full health tanks to take some damage while saving others, often in the red from death. Unsieged early game i also find a ton of micro through hair line repair/SCV pulling. I try to fire away from immortals and let other units deal with them, unless ive EMP'd the immortals. Ive had zealots on my tanks, and ive not friendly fired, ive even shot my own orbital to prevent friendly fire. etc... EDIT A Phrase was supposed to be deleted. EDIT2: i wouldn't have known about carrier micro until some one else showed me, and i see a very huge difference in the effectiveness of carriers when micro'd properly. Broods can be rather hard to control being so immobile, really once you engage with them you are often committed entirely to that attack, and with raven buff and to some extent thors clumping bro's is costly. And, then perhaps colossi, but even a good spread is required when using 5+ (although that is a sight much more common in WOL) and even tempests need to effectively dance VS vikings. | ||
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Spyridon
United States997 Posts
On February 06 2013 16:04 Unsane wrote: I micro my siege tanks all the time, not only do i try to spread them out the best i can, (avoid clumping, getting an areas full width, covering rows well, finding the best positions, aggressively moving them) but i also target fire units, a lot. I tell them to target infestors, higher energy ones too, i target fire units towards the inside of clumps to maximize splash. I pick my targets wisely, saving lower health tanks to a simple A move command thats gotten up close, allowing full health tanks to take some damage while saving others, often in the red from death. Unsieged early game i also find a ton of micro through hair line repair/SCV pulling. I try to fire away from immortals and let other units deal with them, unless ive EMP'd the immortals. Ive had zealots on my tanks, and ive not friendly fired, ive even shot my own orbital to prevent friendly fire. etc... EDIT A Phrase was supposed to be deleted. EDIT2: i wouldn't have known about carrier micro until some one else showed me, and i see a very huge difference in the effectiveness of carriers when micro'd properly. Broods can be rather hard to control being so immobile, really once you engage with them you are often committed entirely to that attack, and with raven buff and to some extent thors clumping bro's is costly. And, then perhaps colossi, but even a good spread is required when using 5+ (although that is a sight much more common in WOL) and even tempests need to effectively dance VS vikings. Not saying they dont take "any" micro, but their design doesn't require as much. It's more important for SH to be spread than Siege Tanks because unspread SH will die in 1 volley even if the tanks are not spread.. Also SH are designed (backed up by Blizz's posts) for being microed between shots (unlike tanks). Also the locusts then need to be microed to not just target priority targets, but maneuvered in to close range (Roach range) while still keeping them as spread as possible. And just like roaches, you need to attack-move-attack-move closer, or else the locusts behind won't be able to get in range to attack. This is in addition to aggressively moving up and dancing away from enemy units and choosing targets. Everything you named needs to be done except for being able to shoot out of siege (which is a disadvantage), in exchange for moving between shots, guiding the shots, and a-move micro up close to maximize damage. More micro than a siege tank, and both tanks and SH need more micro than a tempest. | ||
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Henk
Netherlands578 Posts
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On February 06 2013 15:48 Spyridon wrote: So your complaining about a unit you havent used? Funny how so many people are doing this.. Swarm hosts actually require quite a bit of micro - more micro than the siege units of all the other classes. Also the Locusts move fairly decent speed on creep, and could be manually controlled, basically the locusts themselves require the same amount of micro as Roaches. Funny that people are complaining about them from spectators view, when micro is what makes things entertaining for spectators since it can lead to big plays, and properly using Swarm Hosts is one of the more micro intensive units the race has. People should really wait until they see some pro players using SH before complaining about spectators perspective of units they haven't seen played. Shows the credibility of most of the complaints here.... Funny.. As someone said earlier if they took Terrans AoE blasts and gave that instead Terran would be saying they were too weak as a unit. Especially considering they can't even shoot over hills, considering how much that's used to Terrans advantage w/ siege tanks. I meant it in the sense of the broodlord, who has an attack that deals significant damage. I meant if you just took the normal siege tank attack and then added that unit in. Maybe reduce the overall damage a little to compensate. You get 10 tanks firing those things and you're not reaching them. | ||
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Henk
Netherlands578 Posts
On February 07 2013 02:52 Whitewing wrote: I meant it in the sense of the broodlord, who has an attack that deals significant damage. I meant if you just took the normal siege tank attack and then added that unit in. Maybe reduce the overall damage a little to compensate. You get 10 tanks firing those things and you're not reaching them. If you've got 10 tanks firing, you still won't reach them. They deal a ton of damage compared to the initial hit of a broodling strike. Not to mention you can flank swarmhosts and take zero damage. | ||
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On February 07 2013 03:36 Henk wrote: If you've got 10 tanks firing, you still won't reach them. They deal a ton of damage compared to the initial hit of a broodling strike. Not to mention you can flank swarmhosts and take zero damage. Mass ling/ultra/baneling flanks crush such armies all the time in game, but if you put something in the way, suddenly they can't. Autoturrets were envisioned to do this, but they can't because they're too difficult to actually place due to being buildings. I suppose players can build supply depot walls but that makes pushes too slow. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On February 07 2013 06:39 Whitewing wrote: Mass ling/ultra/baneling flanks crush such armies all the time in game, but if you put something in the way, suddenly they can't. Autoturrets were envisioned to do this, but they can't because they're too difficult to actually place due to being buildings. I suppose players can build supply depot walls but that makes pushes too slow. That's a numbers issue, not a design one. Numbers wise it works in TvT (Can't really charge into a tank line in TvT) but not in TvP or TvZ. Not because the design does not work (it's why it works in TvT) but because the numbers aren't right. Give tanks 70 flat damage and see how "easy" it is to break those lines. (70 means that the targeted ling and all lings in an archon sized area die in clumps to the siege tank shots. Zealots would also be 2-shot instead of 4-shot) | ||
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Enchanted
United States1609 Posts
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On February 07 2013 07:14 Enchanted wrote: Really don't like the whole let's mass swarm hosts and make you fight for 30 minutes. Would you like the whole lets mass siege tanks and stand around for 30 minutes design better? | ||
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Ramiz1989
12124 Posts
On February 07 2013 07:17 Thieving Magpie wrote: Would you like the whole lets mass siege tanks and stand around for 30 minutes design better? Don't know about him, but many Hypocrites would... ^^ | ||
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nomyx
United States2205 Posts
On February 06 2013 14:30 Falling wrote: Regardless of whether the spawned units should be considered 'free' or not, can it least be agreed that they spawn a lot of things that clutter the screen visually in a way that strictly damage units do not and that they also affect pathing of other units to some extent? A good way to fix a lot of this clutter would be to nerf the # of broodlings from a broodlord. Their first attack after a period of no attacking summons 2 broodlings instead of the standard 1. So if you have 15 brood lords you just summoned 30 broodlings with just a few seconds of autoattacks. Having it always summon 1 broodling would make the broodlord more of a supplementary army unit instead of the main army unit. You could even buff the broodling's damage by 1 or so to help the zerg out if this nerf is too severe | ||
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On February 07 2013 07:31 Ramiz1989 wrote: Don't know about him, but many Hypocrites would... ^^ I don't want matchups against zerg to play the same way as matchups against terran do, and frankly putting siege units on zerg just make it more ridiculous because of the other mechanics of the zerg race. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On February 07 2013 09:01 Whitewing wrote: I don't want matchups against zerg to play the same way as matchups against terran do, and frankly putting siege units on zerg just make it more ridiculous because of the other mechanics of the zerg race. I definitely agree. But balance/fairness wise, there still is nothing wrong with the Swarm Host other than it would have been a much cooler protoss unit. | ||
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KamikazeDurrrp
United States95 Posts
The other thing that makes me facepalm is how people keep comparing the swarm host to the siege tank. You could not have any more of an "apples and oranges" argument but here goes. The "attack" of the siege tank comes from the siege tank, the "attack" of the swarm host DOES NOT come from the swarm host. That makes a huge difference. The thing is when you use a siege tank, you are exposing your siege tank to a variety of risks. "Is my tank in the right position? Can they fire in a spot that can do the most damage to my opponent? Am I putting enough distance between me and my opponent where my siege tanks get sniped?" are just a few of the many things you have to worry about because the utility of the siege tank is TIED TO THE SIEGE TANK. With swarm host, all you have to do is plant them in a spot where they can't get hit, and where the locust can get to whatever target they need to get to in time. Then you can do whatever the heck you want with the swarm host because the utility of the swarm host does not come from the swarm host, it comes from keeping the swarm host alive and in a position where they can spawn locusts. Swarm hosts are not "siege" units. Sometimes I feel like swarm hosts are more like mobile spawning points than actual units. Another thing I'm seeing is how mines and interceptors are being used to justify the existence of locust/IT. Again, another "apple and oranges" scenario. First of all, mines are limited by the number of vultures you produce. You do not "regenerate" mines, you have to constantly "buy" them by buying the vulture. Second of all, like the siege tank, the use of the interceptor is directly tied to the carrier. If you move the carrier, the interceptors don't attack. If you attack a specific unit with a carrier, the interceptors focus on that specific unit. If you attack something out of the carrier's range, the interceptor doesn't even come out of the carrier. Each interceptor doesn't have a mind of it own, you control the interceptor by controlling the carrier. That's why they call it "carrier micro", not "interceptor micro". "Infestor micro" basically boils down to: "Spawn the infested terran, run the F*** away." At least with the broodlord you actually have to be attacking to spawn broodlings. So the biggest question here is: Are "free units" balanced? To that all I can say is: meh, kinda? I guess if you make it so it's harder to spawn free units and the free units aren't that strong it's kind of balanced. However, something I can say for sure is that I feel that the way "free units" are being implemented now is extremely gimmicky and shouldn't belong in Starcraft. Like other gimmicky mechanics in SC2, once the novelty of locusts and infested terrans (OMG I CAN SPAWN FREE UNITS LEIK WHENEVER I WANT) wears off, it becomes clear how limiting and broken such units really are. The only real "strategy" that really comes from "free units" is that they're free with large amounts of dps. They have no real utility except for exacerbating and making cost-efficient tools that zerg already had. I feel like if there ever happens to be a day where skytoss and skyterran is nerfed, and zergs learn how to use swarm host effectively, then we're going to have another scenario where all zergs are doing is trying to mass up the most abusive thing available to them by being as passive as possible before moving out. (BTW I don't like autoturrents either but I wanted to focus on the zerg "free units") | ||
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Infernal_dream
United States2359 Posts
On February 07 2013 07:17 Thieving Magpie wrote: Would you like the whole lets mass siege tanks and stand around for 30 minutes design better? Except mass siege tank sucks, so nobody would be sitting around for 30 minutes. Unless you're stupid and trying to amove them. | ||
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Emzeeshady
Canada4203 Posts
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