EPTZerg and free units - Page 14
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looken
727 Posts
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Spyridon
United States997 Posts
On February 06 2013 02:17 Thieving Magpie wrote: He is merely unable to properly explain what he's experiencing. He thinks that the reason he dislikes forcefields and Fungals is because it "takes away micro" moreso than killing units take away micro. The reason he thinks this is because when siege tanks and spidermines kill units--it looks like a legitimate and fair way to "take away micro" while (since you can still see them) forcefields and fungals are unfair ways to take away micro. Now (in my opinion) he is right that it looks boring/unfair to watch units die to forcefield blocks. It *looks* ridiculous to watch a clump of 15 vikings die to fungals as they helpless float there losing hitpoints. It doesn't matter that when fungals hit they deal less damage than a siege tank shot--at least a siege tank shot looks like a fair way to deal 35-50 damage while fungal looks like a cheesy way to deal 30-40 damage. He's right on that--he's simply wrong on the *why* it is so. First off, I want to give you credit for actually not being sensationalist (that seems to be rare in this topic), which means I can actually respect your opinion on the matter, since you actually have a logical and well thought out opinion. At least you understand the roles of the abilities and their synergy with the race without being bias. But I'd like to point out that he's went far beyond just that lol. He's not just talking about looks, he's been saying it's too powerful because of too much blocking power, and said so much pure bias ridiculousness in this topic, including some blatantly untrue information, and even ignored information that could have potentially helped him if he even plays HotS (which at this point seems highly unlikely). Ignoring the Seeker Missile (since it would be understandable if he missed the change in patch notes - though this does make it suspect if he even plays HotS - and if he doesn't it's kind of messed up that he's argued in this topic so much)... He's called free units "hard CC", He's claimed Ravens are harder to mass than Broodlords (meanwhile Broodlords are later in tech, each cost 3x the minerals, 100 more gas, take more time to morph, and cost double the supply - even with zerg having eggs it's such a big investment and later in tech so Terran can reach 5 to 10 easier and earlier). He's tried to compare non-combat units to Infestors. He's consistently argued about Zerg units being used in ways that doesn't even work for the race, and ignored the fact that his own races free units are designed for the precise reason he's complaining about. He's tried to call Ravens spells "off topic arguments". He's said that free unit and shield abilities "dont take skill they just prevent the opponents skill". He's said it's a "battlefield shaping ability and not a siege unit". He's said Fungal costs less energy than Missiles. When I pointed out the strengths of each race he called me a "whining kid talking about Terrans stuff is stronger" when he's the only one who has a problem with the noted strengths and weaknesses. Now, after all that I'm not going to claim I know exactly what his motive is, but obviously he has some deeper issue than the micro situation, that even goes far beyond the topic of this thread. | ||
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SOWxDISCORD
Brazil15 Posts
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looken
727 Posts
On February 06 2013 03:41 SOWxDISCORD wrote: Stop whining thank you so much for this well thought out comment <3 | ||
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Garoodah
United States56 Posts
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Spyridon
United States997 Posts
On February 06 2013 04:03 Garoodah wrote: I think it should be more of a tanky unit with less damage output to be honest. I'd personally find them more useful if that was the case. But if people are complaining about them now, imagine what would happen if they actually changed them like this? The Hosts are actually most useful in ZvP, where a lategame composition of Hydra/Host/Corruptor with ranged upgrades is hard for them to handle. Terran can handle them pretty easily, they only work well on Terran very situationally unless you are very far ahead (mostly if they are turtling). Which, btw, is one of the reasons the complaints about free units are a bit ridiculous. Especially coming from Terrans. Ling/Bling/Muta/Viper/Ultra is by far the most effective and common composition atm in HotS ZvT. Not SH nor Infestor/BL. They fit a specific niche of basically siege or countering siege only, and that's only necessary when you can't break a wall without them. | ||
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PauseBreak
United States270 Posts
On January 28 2013 04:13 phrenzy wrote: The problem is range. Zerg units are mainly melee based.. I'm going to stop you right there and stomp this terrible internet rumor before it spreads any further. As we can see from this list, that simply saying "zerg is a melee army" is a gross over assumption. List of Zerg units [Melee]
List of Zerg units [Ranged]
*I did not need to list the Viper because it doesn't actually attack. Its a spell caster the deal damage indirectly. **It should also be noted that the [Free units] are basically Zerg's AOE. I'm not disagreeing with the "free unit" concept at all. But I want to make painfully clear that Zerg is not some melee exclusive race. On February 06 2013 04:03 Garoodah wrote: As a Masters zerg in woL (havent done ranked in hots) I dont particularly enjoy swarm hosts. I dont like the immobility of the units, and I think they are very limited in use right now. They are really slow, and the time between waves feels like they can easily take damage. You have essentially described the core of Terran Mech and what they've been dealing with for two years. | ||
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Advantageous
China1350 Posts
On January 28 2013 04:07 InfCereal wrote: They're not technically free. Their cost is the cost of the unit spawning them, and their price goes down the more waves that are produced. Honestly, 200/100 for 2 temporary units is absolutely horrible. But the longer the swarm hosts are alive, the more they're worth it. I think it's an interesting dynamic, and I have no problem with it being in sc2. Mid master zerg opinion. Take that as you will. Typical Zerg thinking. These locusts are free because they're generated, if you've taken economics in school you would know that if the benefits out weight the cost the units practically pay for themselves right off the bat with just pressure and forcing tech. Take for example a marine, it has a limited amount of health and can only generate so many kills/damage over the course of the 55hp, however, a swarm host is burrowed and can produce fighting unit/army at a distance, the locusts will always be beefy enuf to land a couple of hits and because they're "free" losing them technically does not cost you anything. Thus, YES THEY ARE FREE. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On February 06 2013 05:11 Advantageous wrote: Typical Zerg thinking. These locusts are free because they're generated, if you've taken economics in school you would know that if the benefits out weight the cost the units practically pay for themselves right off the bat with just pressure and forcing tech. Take for example a marine, it has a limited amount of health and can only generate so many kills/damage over the course of the 55hp, however, a swarm host is burrowed and can produce fighting unit/army at a distance, the locusts will always be beefy enuf to land a couple of hits and because they're "free" losing them technically does not cost you anything. Thus, YES THEY ARE FREE. Typical toss thinking. They aren't free until they do damage. If for example you make 5 swarmhosts and you let loose locusts but they do 0 damage and you lose all 5 yeah you just wasted 1k minerals 500 gas. Sure this is an extreme example but it's an example non the less. They are free once they pay for their costs. So once they do 200 minerals/100 gas worth of damage then yes I agree they are "free" as you so put it. Their initial waves aren't free as you just paid a pretty hefty amount to get them  . | ||
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Henk
Netherlands578 Posts
On February 06 2013 05:11 Advantageous wrote: Typical Zerg thinking. These locusts are free because they're generated, if you've taken economics in school you would know that if the benefits out weight the cost the units practically pay for themselves right off the bat with just pressure and forcing tech. Take for example a marine, it has a limited amount of health and can only generate so many kills/damage over the course of the 55hp, however, a swarm host is burrowed and can produce fighting unit/army at a distance, the locusts will always be beefy enuf to land a couple of hits and because they're "free" losing them technically does not cost you anything. Thus, YES THEY ARE FREE. So marines are free when you have medivacs healing them? In theory, unlimited HP. | ||
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ZeraToss
Germany1094 Posts
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Yeld
Austria106 Posts
"Omg he is fighting against FREE units!!" is just something bad casters like to shout because it sounds like something exciting/clever was going on. Infested Terrans aren't free either. It's just the Infestor's attack much like Psionic Storm is the Templar's attack. All the "omg free units!!"-nonsense aside, people simply need to learn how to deal with Swarmhosts correctly. The possibilities to do so have already been desribed in lenght in this thread, so I won't repeat everything in this post. Just realize that standing at your ramp and fighting locust over and over is not the right way. You are supposed to die if that's all you do. That's like standing around in Siege Tank fire, not doing anything. | ||
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ysnake
Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
On February 06 2013 04:49 PauseBreak wrote: I'm going to stop you right there and stomp this terrible internet rumor before it spreads any further. As we can see from this list, that simply saying "zerg is a melee army" is a gross over assumption. List of Zerg units [Melee]
List of Zerg units [Ranged]
*I did not need to list the Viper because it doesn't actually attack. Its a spell caster the deal damage indirectly. **It should also be noted that the [Free units] are basically Zerg's AOE. I'm not disagreeing with the "free unit" concept at all. But I want to make painfully clear that Zerg is not some melee exclusive race. You have essentially described the core of Terran Mech and what they've been dealing with for two years. And quite frankly, Ultralisks are seen in 80% ZvTs and Zerglings are seen in every MU, and are our most reliable T1 unit that we use throughout the game, same like Marine, same like Zealot. Banelings are around when Terran is going bio, so that's around 40% of the games I've played in HotS, since most Terrans like mech nowadays. So, yeah, we do have a lot of melee units. Since the core of our army is melee. | ||
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ysnake
Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
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nucLeaRTV
Romania822 Posts
IT are fine (especially after latest nerfs), but BL and now Swarm hosts will always be on my black list. | ||
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vRadiatioNv
United States139 Posts
This is a much better way to look at a Swarm Host: HP: 290 (SH + Locust) DPS: 27.9 (maximum) - Regenerates 130 HP every 25 seconds (locust respawn) The locusts dying and respawning is almost exactly the same as just having HP regen in some ways similar to Marines being healed via medivacs. A similar argument can be made for Brood Lords and Infesters. It's not OP and they're not "free". I personally enjoy watching the interesting dynamics that these units create and it does feel "swarm-ish" to me. | ||
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ChristianS
United States3304 Posts
On February 06 2013 05:11 Advantageous wrote: Typical Zerg thinking. These locusts are free because they're generated, if you've taken economics in school you would know that if the benefits out weight the cost the units practically pay for themselves right off the bat with just pressure and forcing tech. Take for example a marine, it has a limited amount of health and can only generate so many kills/damage over the course of the 55hp, however, a swarm host is burrowed and can produce fighting unit/army at a distance, the locusts will always be beefy enuf to land a couple of hits and because they're "free" losing them technically does not cost you anything. Thus, YES THEY ARE FREE. How are you going to play the "if you've taken economics in school" card and then completely ignore the actual economics doctrine on the issue? According to economics, NOTHING is free. There's always costs; if you haven't found them, you're not looking hard enough. When people say "free" in this thread they're using it in a colloquial, non-economics sense, which is fine. But if you bring up the economics on the issue, don't misrepresent them. TANSTAAFL | ||
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Spyridon
United States997 Posts
On February 06 2013 11:57 vRadiatioNv wrote: I really think the title of the thread needs to be changed or something because the term "free units" is completely inaccurate and even appears to be brainwashing people in this thread. This is true. And to make it even worse, all 3 units in question are completely different, yet they are all being bunched up in to the same category. Swarm Hosts, as was just stated, their units ARE their attack, so it's basically like 2 regenerating locusts that are "leashed" to a distance between their origin location. Plus they have very clear weaknesses - immobility, huge time between waves. Their main function is as a siege unit, and require other backup to even be useful. Infestors units are just a little bit of DPS in emergencies, and hopefully cause a little bit of confusion to anyone who isn't focus firing. You also have to give up Fungal (the primary defensive spell for Zerg) in order to use them. After all the nerfs they are typically only good as some flash AA or a surprise attack on an undefended area. Very similar in utility to Hallucination except with a little bit of damage. Theres also clear weaknesses - limited energy, Infestors also don't have their own inherent attacks, etc. Broodlords are a late game (possibly the latest game) siege unit, that spawns a couple Broodlings at a time. The broodlings do a little damage, but mostly function the same way as the Locusts do. Broodlords, by default, don't do the best damage, nor do they have as large range as the other siege units in the game for the other races. They also have very clear weaknesses - they are extremely immobile, are one of the most expensive units in the game (300 mins, 250 gas, 4 supply) even more expensive than a tempest (which does more damage and has damage bonuses, from farther away, and moves faster). All three function very differently, especially when it comes to the intent of their "free units". All are limited in some way and use them as their primary attacks. For some reason people are coming here acting like there is an endless supply, and do nothing but block paths with endless crowd control, when this is simply not true. Just the fact that BL and SH are limited in how many spawn at once means that the units supply of 3-4 (which is very high for Zerg units) means each of those units it spawns takes more than 1 supply. Considering how late game tech they are, the huge gas/supply costs, this is exactly why they have an ability of "Regenerating health". People are also talking like the Zerg army is made up by nothing but these units, and talking like they are nothing but crowd control, when that's simply not true. Infestor/Broodlord is a shadow of its old self and is overshadowed by other compositions, and you need other backup than just these units together as they all share the same weaknesses. And the post above is correct. If we're talking economics here, how about factoring the gas cost, supply costs, and how all these units listed share the same inherent weaknesses, and are not ideal together? | ||
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Jarree
Finland1004 Posts
I've played against swarm hosts only a couple of times and they didn't seem that good to me. Haven't used them yet myself so don't know, but i'll guess it isn't that fun either. | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
Instead, this should be complaining about the absurd cost efficiency of such units rather than the false notion of 'free'. The issue is that these spawned units are vastly superior to the attacks of most other units. | ||
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