EPTZerg and free units - Page 2
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shin_toss
Philippines2589 Posts
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Existor
Russian Federation4295 Posts
So maybe the unit should have some couldown on burrow/unburrow to force smart usage (like the tank need 2 second to siege and 2 second to unsiege and you cannot stop the current transformation). right now it feel like burrow, shoot 30 locust, unburrow right away and go far enough to not get punished afterward. First, you already must make it that all loocusts are left mushrooms fields, or they wil stuck like in this video. Second, you should remember, that Swarm Host burrow time isn't fast like every zerg unit. SH burrow time is around 2-3 seconds too. rather slow pretty big and clunky cannot shot air tend to be stacked (in their current usage) All of these arguments are similar to siege tank ones. And I want to add, that but it becomes more dangerous on creep because of big benefits from it. 40% more speed for Locusts and 2.95 speed for Swarm host itself. It's fast as Stalker. On creep you gain bigger speed for Locusts which means they can attack at more far distances. | ||
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Emzeeshady
Canada4203 Posts
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FlyingBeer
United States262 Posts
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sitromit
7051 Posts
Let's talk about the Swarm Host. It's supposed to be a siege unit, right? Like a Siege Tank. You siege your tank, it starts shooting at whatever enemy structure or unit is in range. The function of it is to deal damage. This damage doesn't cost resources or energy, and you can't avoid it, unless you kill the Tank. Like the Siege Tank, you siege (burrow) your Swarm Host, and it starts dealing damage to whatever is in range. Just like the Tank, to stop this damage, you need to kill the Swarm Host. The twist here is this, the Swarm Host deals damage indirectly. Instead of firing shots that can't be avoided, it creates Locusts that fire shots. This is actually not an advantage when it comes to dealing damage. The Locusts can be avoided, unlike the Tank's shots. The damage is not instant, and by killing the Locusts themselves, you can actually completely avoid it. | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On January 28 2013 10:42 sitromit wrote: I don't see the problem at all with so called "free units". That's like saying the beams that come out of your Colossus are "free lazors!" Let's talk about the Swarm Host. It's supposed to be a siege unit, right? Like a Siege Tank. You siege your tank, it starts shooting at whatever enemy structure or unit is in range. The function of it is to deal damage. This damage doesn't cost resources or energy, and you can't avoid it, unless you kill the Tank. Like the Siege Tank, you siege (burrow) your Swarm Host, and it starts dealing damage to whatever is in range. Just like the Tank, to stop this damage, you need to kill the Swarm Host. The twist here is this, the Swarm Host deals damage indirectly. Instead of firing shots that can't be avoided, it creates Locusts that fire shots. This is actually not an advantage when it comes to dealing damage. The Locusts can be avoided, unlike the Tank's shots. The damage is not instant, and by killing the Locusts themselves, you can actually completely avoid it. Colossus lasers don't have hit points or absorb enemy attacks, or block enemy movement, or chase them down if they run from the colossus. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
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sitromit
7051 Posts
On January 28 2013 10:45 Whitewing wrote: Colossus lasers don't have hit points or absorb enemy attacks, or block enemy movement, or chase them down if they run from the colossus. Colossus lasers or Tank shots don't absorb enemy attacks, you're right. This is one thing that counterbalances the disadvantages of dealing damage indirectly. If it didn't have any advantages, then it would just be inferior in every way, wouldn't it? If that was a Tank shot you were trying to run away from, it would have already hit you. You can't escape a Tank shot, or Marine shot, or Colossus lasers that have already been fired. With the Locusts, if you can outrun them, you can, or you can kill the Locusts with ranged units before they do any damage at all. | ||
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marcjpb
Canada64 Posts
So to some people, in order to make zerg feel zergly is have 0 cost effective units. I though the whole zergy fill is to have a lots of units to throw at your oppenent and overwelm them with the numbers, even if they are weak. Swam host is a unit with high risk vs reward. When use properly, it is very strong. When use poorly, you just lose the game outright. I just dont get it whats the big deal, oh ya Terran cant win 70% of their matchup so they bitch about every damn thing, my bad. | ||
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sweetbabyjesus
Denmark168 Posts
On January 28 2013 10:45 Whitewing wrote: Colossus lasers don't have hit points or absorb enemy attacks, or block enemy movement, or chase them down if they run from the colossus. They do do guaranteed damage though. | ||
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AndAgain
United States2621 Posts
On January 28 2013 10:59 sitromit wrote: Colossus lasers or Tank shots don't absorb enemy attacks, you're right. This is one thing that counterbalances the disadvantages of dealing damage indirectly. If it didn't have any advantages, then it would just be inferior in every way, wouldn't it? If that was a Tank shot you were trying to run away from, it would have already hit you. You can't escape a Tank shot, or Marine shot, or Colossus lasers that have already been fired. With the Locusts, if you can outrun them, you can, or you can kill the Locusts with ranged units before they do any damage at all. So what's your point? Yes, free units have some advantages and disadvantages; while regular firing units also have advantages and disadvantages. The fact remains that free units exist and they're the one who absorb limitless amount of damage, block pathing, and create less interesting games. | ||
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sitromit
7051 Posts
On January 28 2013 11:25 AndAgain wrote: So what's your point? Yes, free units have some advantages and disadvantages; while regular firing units also have advantages and disadvantages. The fact remains that free units exist and they're the one who absorb limitless amount of damage, block pathing, and create less interesting games. So you're saying they have advantages and disadvantages, which would mean they're balanced, wouldn't it? Less interesting games is your subjective opinion. | ||
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TurboDreams
United States427 Posts
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ThePlayer33
Australia2378 Posts
once space is completely occupied , these free units become most effective | ||
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sweetbabyjesus
Denmark168 Posts
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On January 28 2013 11:53 ThePlayer33 wrote: free unitsvare hRd to balance because of spacing in sc2 once space is completely occupied , these free units become most effective In BW you could cover half the map with zero supply units that dealt as much damage as a reaver. No one complained of imbalance. In fact, people aske to get back zero supply mineral only nukes for Terran and whine when blizz puts the unit at 2 supply. Zerg, the swarm race, is given weaker zero supply units and suddenly it's TL whine? I just don't understand this community sometimes. | ||
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J.E.G.
United States389 Posts
On January 28 2013 04:07 InfCereal wrote: They're not technically free. Their cost is the cost of the unit spawning them, and their price goes down the more waves that are produced. Honestly, 200/100 for 2 temporary units is absolutely horrible. But the longer the swarm hosts are alive, the more they're worth it. I think it's an interesting dynamic, and I have no problem with it being in sc2. Mid master zerg opinion. Take that as you will. Good point. | ||
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HeeroFX
United States2704 Posts
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19348 Posts
As someone who watches SC2 I feel like the BL infestor combo do make games far less enjoyable. When you consider zerg from 2011 the balance against zerg helped them feel swarmy and fun. I think blizzard can make the units work but have to.just allow the other races an easier time preventing certain combination of units so we don't have these unwatchable situations. Fortunately HOTS will change the dynamic no matter what and I cannot say yet wether its good or bad. | ||
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Spyridon
United States997 Posts
As someone already mentioned, the units aren't "free", and the only way these units are cost effective at all is if they survive long enough to spawn a massive amount of units. This is especially true when it comes to Swarm Hosts. You know how many times a couple Widow mines OR tanks OR seeker missiles have killed a dozen mutas or lings in one explosion? Complaining about "free units" would be like complaining about how efficient those are in comparison to Zerg having to blow up banelings (which costs gas) for that kind of explosion that kills that many units when Terran can do that much damage WITH RANGE and FOR FREE! But it would be completely silly to complain about that because of the racial advantages and disadvantages... This isn't considering the fact that a siege unit not having immediate damage is a huge disadvantage, nor the fact that others have mentioned where the "free units" are Zergs form of AoE. Don't you realize it's intended for Zerg to have to use the free units to protect themselves from AoE because the majority of Zerg units are very vulnerable to AoE? This is the same exact way Hallucinations are supposed to be used, why is this complaint only focused on Zerg when taking that in to consideration? On the topic of "fun to watch", fun to watch in SC/SC2 most the time is related to events that require micro to work. Broodlords (or any of the massive air units) are not really fun to watch for this reason. But Swarm Hosts? They are quite the opposite, and Swarm Host + Infestor takes quite a bit of micro to play optimally. Which is not only fun to play as, but also fun to watch, since key micro leads to intense plays. Again, very silly topic... | ||
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