EPTbut every high armor high health unit is now a good counter to mass infestor. thats why Z dont got 30-40 infestor in HOTS (which is a good thing).
Beta Balance Update #10 - Page 84
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Decendos
Germany1341 Posts
but every high armor high health unit is now a good counter to mass infestor. thats why Z dont got 30-40 infestor in HOTS (which is a good thing). | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 27 2012 23:59 Rabiator wrote: 1) Other games have other general settings and Fungal would not be so terrible in BW, but since we have SC2 with its autoclumped tight formations and huge numbers of units Fungal IS a problem and too strong. 2) Why is it untrue? What else is there to block retreat? Even Forcefield isnt that bad at the end of a fight, because you have to put the Forcefield further than the unit to be blocked. So what else is there? 3) Fungal isnt good against "something" ... its good against EVERYTHING (except for Siege Tanks maybe, but they are locked in place already) and thats a difference. 4) You dont have to fungal the whole army to affect/limit the microing capability of an army. All you have to do is fungal a key clump in a tight spot and you can divide the enemys army in half ... just as wtih Forcefield. The argument of "you should build the counter composition" is a hollow one, because there isnt any composition which is that easy to play for Terran or Protoss in the game ... 5) Starcraft is NOT a game where dispel spells should be an option. That only works in games like WoW or LoL. ---- Fungal is broken, because the whole package of the Infestor is broken. Just looking at the Spellcasters in BW you can see that they mostly had only one very useful spell and some semi-useful ones in addition to that, but the Infestor has the "micro blocking Fungal" and the "focus all your power on one point of time Infested Terran" spell. The combination of these is what makes it bad and if Infestors only had Fungal (and maybe abduct instead of Infested Terran) no one would build 20 Infestors. Sadly Blizzard doesnt realize this ... 1) The adjustment of fungal to match the clumping enviroment has nothing to do with the design of the spell, but it's power relationship. It's exactly the reason why I think fungal should be kept but made harder to apply - because it is hard to counteract the SC2 pathing upon seeing Infestors with the exact stats of the Infestor right now. 2) Read the section. I gave examples of compositions/situations with/in which you cannot retreat. Just read them. 3) Thors, BCs? Sorry, but 6supply of Infestors chainfungaling do 240damage to those 400/550 HP units over 24seconds (statistically less, because you cannot apply it perfectly). Ghosts completely destroy the Infestors with snipe alone in the 4seconds of the first fungal. Similar for Colossi and HTs. Playing Infestors against those units just for the sake of fungaling is sucide. I guess - like with everything - using it is better than not using it in a combat, but really... You don't build Infestors to "counter" BCs or Thors with Fungal. You might want it as synergy with other counters (though I don't really see the point of rooting units that cannot run anyways, due to their inferior speed) 4) Fungal doesn't divide armies... If you run away from that fungaled clump and leave them to die, that's your decision. 5) And how so? PDD dispels attacks, EMP dispels cloak. Hell, what's wrong with the idea that EMPing units cleans Fungal effects, cancels injects and Purify? Or that medivac/queen heal also removes negative effects? The Oracle had such a spell for a short time if you remember. Or ever heard of Restoration? Anyways, the point is not really whether dispels would be good or bad. The point is that it has absolutely nothing to do with fungal's design, but with how everything is balanced against each other. On December 28 2012 01:11 vthree wrote: Not sure why you use DoTA as an example. Almost all Disables in MOBA games have long cool downs. Especially for AoE spells. The same goes for MMORPGs, most MMOs have immunity system in place once you have been hit by a CC (Crowd Control) or have CC breaks. Have an AoE root + Dot you can spam and chain in a game where units natural clump up is just bad design. Giving it to a versatile caster you can mass just makes it worse. Because you can combine multiple Heros and Items that let you stun an opponent for quite some time if you want to. One of the core components of such games is usually to have Heros with the one and only job to disable a certain enemy Hero in a combat. People even call it "Disabler". 2nd Again, why is it untrue that fungal prevents retreating? Units that are fungaled can't move at all, they can only sit there and shoot or die. In all the examples you have you at least have the option to retreat, even if sometimes at a loss. There are ways to retreat as well, using defensive nukes to cover an escape, using FFs to block off pursuit, with fungal there is no such choice, once you commit you remain firmly committed. 3rd Except infestors fungals are good against everything, just the ability to deny movement is a super powerful tool in a game focused so much on positioning, the damage is the cherry on top of the cake, but it definitely adds insult to injury. Your point here is moot because infestors are good against any composition from any race and are used in all match ups and in all compositions. 4th Its funny that you say fungal only limits micro for 4 seconds when getting just one off guarantees you can get 2nd or 3rd or 4th off. And you don't even need many infestors, one can get off 2 fungals, 2 can chain 4 fungals etc. Its funny you mention strategy as a key component in this, but, up till the recent fungal range nerf there was very little to nothing you could actually do to counter infestors, this risks being the case again if the 10 range thing goes trough. 5th Yes fungal in a game with a lot of dispels wouldn't be as bad, but ultimately that isn't a fun dynamic to have in an RTS, I should worry about baby buffs and debuffs, I want to manage units, armies, flanks. It also brings up an element of unfairness when a certain race is made too reliant on debuffs and then faces up against a race which has lots of immunities or dispels, again leading to a feeling of staleness. 2) Didn't say it is untrue that fungal prevents retreating. I said it is untrue that it does this more than many other things. And no. You have the exact same choice to retreat with some losses (the fungaled) units. 3) Yes it's a powerful tool. But its power differs extremely between units that you actually don't move too much anyways (the heavy big hitters with longer range). On top of that it is on a really expensive unit. 4) No, you cannot "just apply" more fungals. Just watch actual games. There are tanks, Colossi, HT that all have enough range to prevent that. Stalkers that blink forward to snipe Infestors, MM that stims forward to focus fire Infestors, FFs that prevent Infestors from getting into position again. There are plenty of things that prevent Infestors from "guaranteeing you can get 2nd or 3rd or 4th off". And the changes I'm proposing and that blizzard has applied so far (minus the +2range+speed buff) have emphasized on this. 5) The point is not really whether dispels would be good or bad. The point is that it has absolutely nothing to do with fungal's design, but with how everything is balanced against each other. If you agree that fungal can work in such a game, then you agree that fungals design isn't bad in itself. On December 28 2012 04:43 Ghanburighan wrote: If you root the thors closest to the broods, broodlords outrange them (9.5 v 9). Just on a sidenote. Thors have 10range vs air, so broods never outrange them.  | ||
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Crawdad
614 Posts
On December 28 2012 07:33 Big J wrote:And the changes I'm proposing and that blizzard has applied so far (minus the +2range+speed buff) have emphasized on this. Wasn't it this most recent change that pissed everybody off, though? What were your proposed changes, BTW? I missed them. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 28 2012 07:52 Crawdad wrote: Wasn't it this most recent change that pissed everybody off, though? What were your proposed changes, BTW? I missed them. Well, yes. But some people (e.g. Rabiator and Destructicon) argue that the problem is fungal's design, not the Infestor and the exact stats. That's what i believe should be tried. + Show Spoiler + If you asked me, this is what blizzard should do in January for WoL and HotS: Infestor speed 2.25-->2.0, Creep Speed multiplier from 1.3-->1.1 or 1.0 More visual burrow movement Fungal to range 8 and add the fungal projectile (15speed) to WoL. Marine sight range 9-->10 Zealot sight range 9-->10 Not sure about further nerfing ITs in WoL or HotS. Rather in HotS, then in WoL. Edit: Fungal projectile in WoL with 8range might be too much, but it would at least make fungal visually more understandable and exciting. All of those basically aim towards two things: 1) make it easier to spread out, set-up or retreat upon spotting Infestors. 2) make it easier to kill Infestors when they come close to your army. (for example to chain a fungal) | ||
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Crawdad
614 Posts
On December 28 2012 08:04 Big J wrote: That's what i believe should be tried. + Show Spoiler + If you asked me, this is what blizzard should do in January for WoL and HotS: Infestor speed 2.25-->2.0, Creep Speed multiplier from 1.3-->1.1 or 1.0 More visual burrow movement Fungal to range 8 and add the fungal projectile (15speed) to WoL. Marine sight range 9-->10 Zealot sight range 9-->10 Not sure about further nerfing ITs in WoL or HotS. Rather in HotS, then in WoL. Edit: Fungal projectile in WoL with 8range might be too much, but it would at least make fungal visually more understandable and exciting. All of those basically aim towards two things: 1) make it easier to spread out, set-up or retreat upon spotting Infestors. 2) make it easier to kill Infestors when they come close to your army. (for example to chain a fungal) Oh yeah, I saw these. I especially like the changes to the Infestor's speed, which is a bigger problem than most people realize. However, I doubt that Blizzard is willing to change the sight radius of base units, or add the projectile to WoL. The other changes sound plausible, though. | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
On December 28 2012 07:33 Big J wrote: + Show Spoiler + 1) The adjustment of fungal to match the clumping enviroment has nothing to do with the design of the spell, but it's power relationship. It's exactly the reason why I think fungal should be kept but made harder to apply - because it is hard to counteract the SC2 pathing upon seeing Infestors with the exact stats of the Infestor right now. 2) Read the section. I gave examples of compositions/situations with/in which you cannot retreat. Just read them. 3) Thors, BCs? Sorry, but 6supply of Infestors chainfungaling do 240damage to those 400/550 HP units over 24seconds (statistically less, because you cannot apply it perfectly). Ghosts completely destroy the Infestors with snipe alone in the 4seconds of the first fungal. Similar for Colossi and HTs. Playing Infestors against those units just for the sake of fungaling is sucide. I guess - like with everything - using it is better than not using it in a combat, but really... You don't build Infestors to "counter" BCs or Thors with Fungal. You might want it as synergy with other counters (though I don't really see the point of rooting units that cannot run anyways, due to their inferior speed) 4) Fungal doesn't divide armies... If you run away from that fungaled clump and leave them to die, that's your decision. 5) And how so? PDD dispels attacks, EMP dispels cloak. Hell, what's wrong with the idea that EMPing units cleans Fungal effects, cancels injects and Purify? Or that medivac/queen heal also removes negative effects? The Oracle had such a spell for a short time if you remember. Or ever heard of Restoration? Anyways, the point is not really whether dispels would be good or bad. The point is that it has absolutely nothing to do with fungal's design, but with how everything is balanced against each other. On December 28 2012 01:11 vthree wrote: Not sure why you use DoTA as an example. Almost all Disables in MOBA games have long cool downs. Especially for AoE spells. The same goes for MMORPGs, most MMOs have immunity system in place once you have been hit by a CC (Crowd Control) or have CC breaks. Have an AoE root + Dot you can spam and chain in a game where units natural clump up is just bad design. Giving it to a versatile caster you can mass just makes it worse. Because you can combine multiple Heros and Items that let you stun an opponent for quite some time if you want to. One of the core components of such games is usually to have Heros with the one and only job to disable a certain enemy Hero in a combat. People even call it "Disabler". 2nd Again, why is it untrue that fungal prevents retreating? Units that are fungaled can't move at all, they can only sit there and shoot or die. In all the examples you have you at least have the option to retreat, even if sometimes at a loss. There are ways to retreat as well, using defensive nukes to cover an escape, using FFs to block off pursuit, with fungal there is no such choice, once you commit you remain firmly committed. 3rd Except infestors fungals are good against everything, just the ability to deny movement is a super powerful tool in a game focused so much on positioning, the damage is the cherry on top of the cake, but it definitely adds insult to injury. Your point here is moot because infestors are good against any composition from any race and are used in all match ups and in all compositions. 4th Its funny that you say fungal only limits micro for 4 seconds when getting just one off guarantees you can get 2nd or 3rd or 4th off. And you don't even need many infestors, one can get off 2 fungals, 2 can chain 4 fungals etc. Its funny you mention strategy as a key component in this, but, up till the recent fungal range nerf there was very little to nothing you could actually do to counter infestors, this risks being the case again if the 10 range thing goes trough. 5th Yes fungal in a game with a lot of dispels wouldn't be as bad, but ultimately that isn't a fun dynamic to have in an RTS, I should worry about baby buffs and debuffs, I want to manage units, armies, flanks. It also brings up an element of unfairness when a certain race is made too reliant on debuffs and then faces up against a race which has lots of immunities or dispels, again leading to a feeling of staleness. 2) Didn't say it is untrue that fungal prevents retreating. I said it is untrue that it does this more than many other things. And no. You have the exact same choice to retreat with some losses (the fungaled) units. 3) Yes it's a powerful tool. But its power differs extremely between units that you actually don't move too much anyways (the heavy big hitters with longer range). On top of that it is on a really expensive unit. 4) No, you cannot "just apply" more fungals. Just watch actual games. There are tanks, Colossi, HT that all have enough range to prevent that. Stalkers that blink forward to snipe Infestors, MM that stims forward to focus fire Infestors, FFs that prevent Infestors from getting into position again. There are plenty of things that prevent Infestors from "guaranteeing you can get 2nd or 3rd or 4th off". And the changes I'm proposing and that blizzard has applied so far (minus the +2range+speed buff) have emphasized on this. 5) The point is not really whether dispels would be good or bad. The point is that it has absolutely nothing to do with fungal's design, but with how everything is balanced against each other. If you agree that fungal can work in such a game, then you agree that fungal design isn't bad in itself. Just on a sidenote. Thors have 10range vs air, so broods never outrange them. Wow, I've believed all this time that thors have 9 range on javelins. Nice! Now we need to get those pesky infestors to fungal broods out of thor range | ||
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Zahir
United States947 Posts
Poll: In HOTS, infestors... Should move slower, have less range on fungal and other minor tweaks (19) Are fine (17) Should be removed entirely (13) Should have fungal that slows but doesn't root (12) Should have a slower fungal projectile with less range (9) Should have fungal that roots but does less/no damage (7) Should have infested Terran removed/swapped with a viper ability (1) Should have weaker infested terrans (0) Something else (0) 78 total votes Your vote: In HOTS, infestors... (Vote): Are fine | ||
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Crawdad
614 Posts
I hope there's at least one tomorrow. | ||
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zergrushkekeke
Australia241 Posts
On the game, something I've noticed again in the beta, so many BM players... I don't know what it is, maybe the competitive angle but the majority of people I play on ladder I wouldn't want to hang out with. Teammates raging and swearing if i FE and get attacked early, opponents pulling off some cheese I don't spot and then calling me out for being rubbish, it feels like no one can take a win or loss gracefully. I don't know what balance change can fix that. Buff happy people or something. | ||
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Crawdad
614 Posts
On December 28 2012 11:21 zergrushkekeke wrote:Buff happy people or something. I think it's weird to say that happy people are less likely to BM. | ||
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zJayy962
1363 Posts
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a176
Canada6688 Posts
i really just dont want to build these anymore. | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
Does anyone know how exactly they're supposed to function? | ||
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aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
On December 28 2012 15:28 Bagi wrote: Yeah widow mines seem kinda bugged at times, it takes a while for them to shoot and sometimes they miss that window entirely. Does anyone know how exactly they're supposed to function? 1) Widow mine acquires a target 2) Widow mine checks if the target will die from another widow mine before shooting 3) If not, widow mine starts the attack sequence 4) If the target moves out of range before shooting projectile, aborts attack sequence I believe there's a behavioral mechanism that checks for a splash kill as well. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On December 28 2012 07:33 Big J wrote: 1) The adjustment of fungal to match the clumping enviroment has nothing to do with the design of the spell, but it's power relationship. It's exactly the reason why I think fungal should be kept but made harder to apply - because it is hard to counteract the SC2 pathing upon seeing Infestors with the exact stats of the Infestor right now. 2) Read the section. I gave examples of compositions/situations with/in which you cannot retreat. Just read them. 3) Thors, BCs? Sorry, but 6supply of Infestors chainfungaling do 240damage to those 400/550 HP units over 24seconds (statistically less, because you cannot apply it perfectly). Ghosts completely destroy the Infestors with snipe alone in the 4seconds of the first fungal. Similar for Colossi and HTs. Playing Infestors against those units just for the sake of fungaling is sucide. I guess - like with everything - using it is better than not using it in a combat, but really... You don't build Infestors to "counter" BCs or Thors with Fungal. You might want it as synergy with other counters (though I don't really see the point of rooting units that cannot run anyways, due to their inferior speed) 4) Fungal doesn't divide armies... If you run away from that fungaled clump and leave them to die, that's your decision. 5) And how so? PDD dispels attacks, EMP dispels cloak. Hell, what's wrong with the idea that EMPing units cleans Fungal effects, cancels injects and Purify? Or that medivac/queen heal also removes negative effects? The Oracle had such a spell for a short time if you remember. Or ever heard of Restoration? Anyways, the point is not really whether dispels would be good or bad. The point is that it has absolutely nothing to do with fungal's design, but with how everything is balanced against each other. 1. Yep ... in a "less dense environment" the power of Fungal Growth would obviously lower. Thats why it makes sense to implement "forced spreading" and give the player the choice to risk being fungaled by giving him the option to clump his units (through the use of micro). 2. Other units do NOT prevent my units from MOVING ... they might be faster and thus make it unwise to retreat, because it doesnt work well, but thats not YOUR (the attacker) decision ... its MINE (the defender). For Fungal Growth its exactly the opposite, because YOU (the attacker) can stop ANYTHING from moving ... even units that would be faster than yours. One exception is the Broodlord with the crapton of free units which restricts (not stop, but limits) the movement of an enemy. Since "you can still retreat" from this it isnt as restrictive as Fungal, but it is a terrible concept just as Fungal, because "you are stopped from advancing" towards the Broodlord and shooting it. 3. Aaaannnd those Ghosts arent the first to be fungaled or attacked? You get to HEAR the Snipe and cant "mass-snipe", so it takes 1 second (plus the delay between keystrokes or for general BNet lag, which you so generously dont want to include) to kill an Infestor, which might even be moving and thus you could misclick on something else (or you might be smart and hide your Infestors under a few Overlords). Apart from EMP and Snipe Ghosts have a pretty bad combat value for their 2 supply ... FAR less than the Infested Terrans an Infestor can lob. Quite obviously you dont fungal the big Thor or BC, but no army is ever made up purely of those units and what you can and will do is fungaling the OTHER STUFF ... you know ... like the Marines/Vikings which could threaten your Corruptors or Broodlords, which are easily capable of annihilating the big guns. 4. Rofl ... so I could not split an army - like a heavy bio ball - apart by fungaling the middle part of it and then rolling in some Banelings to make them want to spread out? Obviously not ... since you say so. 5. PDD is a "passive" countering for attacks which has to be cast BEFORE the attack and not after it. EMP "dispelling" cloak might be true, but cloak is a passive ability and not an attack. Counterspells are for attacks and applied as a reaction to the attack. | ||
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Howl41
United States65 Posts
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ImNaked
United Kingdom13 Posts
On December 28 2012 11:21 zergrushkekeke wrote: On infestors, I have to say at my level of plat in platinum they don't feel broken at all. I have lost a game where the terran made nothing but marines, constantly sending waves to pressure me into building units to not die. I eventually got infestors out and still lost because even vs nothing but marines they are harder to micro and will run out of energy. The marine is a broken unit that I feel needs attention, they just shut down too many options once massed and synergize so well with other terran units and spells. Examples are a ball of marines beating an equal number of lings (from the range), being able to beat mutas (shooting up), able to beat roaches (smaller ball so higher dps). without usable infestors even ultras and broods die to marines if the terran can keep up in production and manage a little bit of micro. As a zerg I never say to myself late game "oh i better have another 20 zerglings here to make sure I don't lose any units in this next fight" but I constantly see marines being part of a late game army composition, not just being pumped out for run bys or to feed enemy aoe. On the game, something I've noticed again in the beta, so many BM players... I don't know what it is, maybe the competitive angle but the majority of people I play on ladder I wouldn't want to hang out with. Teammates raging and swearing if i FE and get attacked early, opponents pulling off some cheese I don't spot and then calling me out for being rubbish, it feels like no one can take a win or loss gracefully. I don't know what balance change can fix that. Buff happy people or something. Lost me slightly at "My level of plat in platinum" and then lost me completely at "vs nothing but marines they are harder to micro" | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
On December 28 2012 19:07 ImNaked wrote: Lost me slightly at "My level of plat in platinum" and then lost me completely at "vs nothing but marines they are harder to micro" I know a guy who's gold-plat and he hates infestors because fungals and IT glitch a lot if you're not used to them. But that's the reason why we don't balance for low-level play. | ||
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Swwww
Switzerland812 Posts
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On December 28 2012 18:31 Serenity12 wrote: Infestor play is simply making games where Zerg are involved less fun to watch. It is a unit for Zerg players that has too much versatility, so no wonder they build mass amounts of them. The best thing would be to nerf Infestors effectiveness while at the same time buffing other zerg units like hydras. Since that kind of "restructuring" would involve some pretty big changes to the stats I would think that adding some "bonus damage" to certain core Zerg units would be a good incentive to push players into building stuff like Hydralisks. In BW Hydralisks had "explosive" damage and were more effective against larger targets, but in SC2 neither the Roach nor the Hydralisk have any unit type they are weak against. Thus adding something like this would give an incentive to build Hydralisks more and thus build a possibly "less optimal" unit. Right now Zerg only build Roaches (unless they already have a crapton of them and can fill the second row with Hydralisks) when they want to build ranged units and that is an advantage over Terrans for example, who will probably have a mix of Marines and Marauders. Obviously such "bonus" damage should not be implemented as it is for the Hellion for example, where the bonus damage is so big that the base damage is insignificant ... which makes the unit pretty much useless against non-bonus-type-units. That is the perfect example of rock-paper-scissors gone wrong. The BW ratios of 100%/75%/50% are much better. | ||
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