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On December 09 2012 04:44 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2012 04:28 TimENT wrote:
Everyone seriously just needs to ignore TheRabidDeer and Rabiator in this thread. Because my 2nd video is clearly wrong? Somebody posed a question wondering about the speed of fungal vs EMP, I answered it. Sorry you just want to blindly hate me, but whatever.
well Actaully your video proved that Fungul is slower then EMP when it comes to speed.
so you did a good job in showing this.
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WTF is up with the vortex ? It's .. useless ? Why would you even cast it ?
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On December 09 2012 04:28 TimENT wrote:
Everyone seriously just needs to ignore TheRabidDeer and Rabiator in this thread.
If you are so sure that I am wrong with what I am saying then please tell me where and ARGUE your point ... if you dont you just "prove" that you cant do it and consequently I am right.
On December 08 2012 23:25 Ameisenmann wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 22:38 Rabiator wrote:On December 08 2012 22:14 Qikz wrote:On December 08 2012 22:11 Rabiator wrote:+ Show Spoiler +If he'd had any units he wouldnt have had three bases to defend, but the map really lends itself to abusing that choke towards the third. There are too many abilities in SC2 which allow people to abuse things like this and P/T will have to cover this long path with turrets/cannons to prevent Zerg from landing a Nydus there "behind the front" outside of vision. LOTS of crappy too mobile junk spells and abilities in SC2. + Show Spoiler +He wouldn't have a third if he had no units? Are you serious? At any time he could have built some roaches or spines to defend that part of the map (if they know it's possible, it's easily stopped) and he tech straight to infestors as they're so broken in WOL expecting to hold off any push to his front.
He lost that game fair and square. You don't even need loads of turrets//cannons up there to prevent nyduses, you just need to learn how to play/scout. Anyway, why are you complaining about WoL stuff in the HoTS forum possibly spoiling the games for people who haven't seen them? The point why I am complaining here is that there are too many abilities which are easily abuseable in WoL already and yet "the community" is cheering when Blizzard is about to add even more of them in their next expansion. The whole point is that "too much mobility" is limiting the map makers and the KeSPA maps were really refreshing after the GOM maps, but also easily abuseable due to the racial skills. Thus I would love to see Blizzard FIXING THE BASICS FIRST before adding new nifty stuff to the game. Oh and in case you didnt see my complaint about game 6 yet just scroll up to HERE ... some new stuff will blatantly remove excitement for the price of efficiency. Everything has a price and most of the new stuff is over the top. Yet another of my "ideas" which people have called "potentially awesome" was to use the Viper to simply drag your own Ultralisks around and maybe even into the base of someone else ... thus circumventing any defensive front or army. Dragging them out of a fight is also an option (instead of losing them), but thats not all you can do with that spell since it also works on enemy units. Ultralisk dragThe point is also that Zerg and Protoss get a new bunch of broken spells on top of their already broken abilities and Terrans get nothing. The game wont be fun anymore next year if Blizzard doesnt fix that drastically ... and fixing involves nerfing/removing a lot of stuff. You sound really desperate. How about you wait and see how the changes play out instead of whining from the get-go? Also I find it strange that people now complain about things being over the top, when a lot of stuff in BW was incredibly powerful as well, they just happend to balance each other out. I honestly think that this patch with it's more drastic changes is the correct way to develop the game in the right direction. If nothing gets changed we will just end up with WoL + a few new useless units, and that isn't really what most people want, I feel most people are looking forward to real change compared to WoL.
Yes, I might be a bit desperate, but I can explain why. It is really quite simple and it comes from the belief that the game has too much mobility in the game already and that more of it will make it even more random/unpredictable. There are also those abilities which do exactly the opposite and block mobility. It is a fact that the races are different - which is good! - but that not all three races have their own "mobility boosters/leaps" and their own battlefield rearrangers" ... in fact Terran has neither of them. Thus the game is developed in a lopsided way and Terrans getting the short stick really shows that due to the different racial styles you cant have an even distribution of those "nifty skills". Thus the game would be much better off without these skills and with more reliance on actual player micro to make it awesome and interesting. The example of the Bifrost game and Forcefield really shows how the WoL skills already affect the game and kinda "break it" ...
The new spells in HotS are just more or less the same and continue the "Terrans get the short stick" trend when it comes to awesome spells. They even found it impossible to buff Seeker Missile/the Thor AA attack without nerfing it at the same time and did nothing for lots of stuff the community complained about for a long time ... while claiming to do stuff the community asked them for with the Oracle. Thus the basics are still just as broken as ever and even the Carrier micro and the merged mech/air upgrades for Terrans [which they shouldnt have done, because that doesnt really make mech better and they will use as an excuse now to not do anything more] wont be enough to really boost that.
I am also desperate, because I think the devs at Blizzard have no clue whatsoever what they are really doing ... since they think it makes sense to try and "fix" the game with a sledgehammer 3 months before releasing the expansion.
The question you have to ask yourself is "Is it possible for the game to have too much mobility and too many spells in it?" If the answer is no, then you are blessed by the usual "ignorance is bliss", but if the answer is yes you might want to think about the spells - current and HotS - and judge if they add more to the game than they restrict. Examples of restrictions are: Forcefield requires wide ramps or it allows too much abuse; MULE requires no-gold-mineral expansions or it allows abuse ... and so on.
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On December 09 2012 05:12 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2012 04:28 TimENT wrote:
Everyone seriously just needs to ignore TheRabidDeer and Rabiator in this thread. If you are so sure that I am wrong with what I am saying then please tell me where and ARGUE your point ... if you dont you just "prove" that you cant do it and consequently I am right. Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 23:25 Ameisenmann wrote:On December 08 2012 22:38 Rabiator wrote:On December 08 2012 22:14 Qikz wrote:On December 08 2012 22:11 Rabiator wrote:+ Show Spoiler +If he'd had any units he wouldnt have had three bases to defend, but the map really lends itself to abusing that choke towards the third. There are too many abilities in SC2 which allow people to abuse things like this and P/T will have to cover this long path with turrets/cannons to prevent Zerg from landing a Nydus there "behind the front" outside of vision. LOTS of crappy too mobile junk spells and abilities in SC2. + Show Spoiler +He wouldn't have a third if he had no units? Are you serious? At any time he could have built some roaches or spines to defend that part of the map (if they know it's possible, it's easily stopped) and he tech straight to infestors as they're so broken in WOL expecting to hold off any push to his front.
He lost that game fair and square. You don't even need loads of turrets//cannons up there to prevent nyduses, you just need to learn how to play/scout. Anyway, why are you complaining about WoL stuff in the HoTS forum possibly spoiling the games for people who haven't seen them? The point why I am complaining here is that there are too many abilities which are easily abuseable in WoL already and yet "the community" is cheering when Blizzard is about to add even more of them in their next expansion. The whole point is that "too much mobility" is limiting the map makers and the KeSPA maps were really refreshing after the GOM maps, but also easily abuseable due to the racial skills. Thus I would love to see Blizzard FIXING THE BASICS FIRST before adding new nifty stuff to the game. Oh and in case you didnt see my complaint about game 6 yet just scroll up to HERE ... some new stuff will blatantly remove excitement for the price of efficiency. Everything has a price and most of the new stuff is over the top. Yet another of my "ideas" which people have called "potentially awesome" was to use the Viper to simply drag your own Ultralisks around and maybe even into the base of someone else ... thus circumventing any defensive front or army. Dragging them out of a fight is also an option (instead of losing them), but thats not all you can do with that spell since it also works on enemy units. Ultralisk dragThe point is also that Zerg and Protoss get a new bunch of broken spells on top of their already broken abilities and Terrans get nothing. The game wont be fun anymore next year if Blizzard doesnt fix that drastically ... and fixing involves nerfing/removing a lot of stuff. You sound really desperate. How about you wait and see how the changes play out instead of whining from the get-go? Also I find it strange that people now complain about things being over the top, when a lot of stuff in BW was incredibly powerful as well, they just happend to balance each other out. I honestly think that this patch with it's more drastic changes is the correct way to develop the game in the right direction. If nothing gets changed we will just end up with WoL + a few new useless units, and that isn't really what most people want, I feel most people are looking forward to real change compared to WoL. Yes, I might be a bit desperate, but I can explain why. It is really quite simple and it comes from the belief that the game has too much mobility in the game already and that more of it will make it even more random/unpredictable. There are also those abilities which do exactly the opposite and block mobility. It is a fact that the races are different - which is good! - but that not all three races have their own "mobility boosters/leaps" and their own battlefield rearrangers" ... in fact Terran has neither of them. Thus the game is developed in a lopsided way and Terrans getting the short stick really shows that due to the different racial styles you cant have an even distribution of those "nifty skills". Thus the game would be much better off without these skills and with more reliance on actual player micro to make it awesome and interesting. The example of the Bifrost game and Forcefield really shows how the WoL skills already affect the game and kinda "break it" ... The new spells in HotS are just more or less the same and continue the "Terrans get the short stick" trend when it comes to awesome spells. They even found it impossible to buff Seeker Missile/the Thor AA attack without nerfing it at the same time and did nothing for lots of stuff the community complained about for a long time ... while claiming to do stuff the community asked them for with the Oracle. Thus the basics are still just as broken as ever and even the Carrier micro and the merged mech/air upgrades for Terrans [which they shouldnt have done, because that doesnt really make mech better and they will use as an excuse now to not do anything more] wont be enough to really boost that. I am also desperate, because I think the devs at Blizzard have no clue whatsoever what they are really doing ... since they think it makes sense to try and "fix" the game with a sledgehammer 3 months before releasing the expansion. The question you have to ask yourself is "Is it possible for the game to have too much mobility and too many spells in it?" If the answer is no, then you are blessed by the usual "ignorance is bliss", but if the answer is yes you might want to think about the spells - current and HotS - and judge if they add more to the game than they restrict. Examples of restrictions are: Forcefield requires wide ramps or it allows too much abuse; MULE requires no-gold-mineral expansions or it allows abuse ... and so on.
This just in.......each race in SC2 is different.
you whine way too much
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On December 09 2012 05:50 SuperYo1000 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2012 05:12 Rabiator wrote:On December 09 2012 04:28 TimENT wrote:
Everyone seriously just needs to ignore TheRabidDeer and Rabiator in this thread. If you are so sure that I am wrong with what I am saying then please tell me where and ARGUE your point ... if you dont you just "prove" that you cant do it and consequently I am right. On December 08 2012 23:25 Ameisenmann wrote:On December 08 2012 22:38 Rabiator wrote:On December 08 2012 22:14 Qikz wrote:On December 08 2012 22:11 Rabiator wrote:+ Show Spoiler +If he'd had any units he wouldnt have had three bases to defend, but the map really lends itself to abusing that choke towards the third. There are too many abilities in SC2 which allow people to abuse things like this and P/T will have to cover this long path with turrets/cannons to prevent Zerg from landing a Nydus there "behind the front" outside of vision. LOTS of crappy too mobile junk spells and abilities in SC2. + Show Spoiler +He wouldn't have a third if he had no units? Are you serious? At any time he could have built some roaches or spines to defend that part of the map (if they know it's possible, it's easily stopped) and he tech straight to infestors as they're so broken in WOL expecting to hold off any push to his front.
He lost that game fair and square. You don't even need loads of turrets//cannons up there to prevent nyduses, you just need to learn how to play/scout. Anyway, why are you complaining about WoL stuff in the HoTS forum possibly spoiling the games for people who haven't seen them? The point why I am complaining here is that there are too many abilities which are easily abuseable in WoL already and yet "the community" is cheering when Blizzard is about to add even more of them in their next expansion. The whole point is that "too much mobility" is limiting the map makers and the KeSPA maps were really refreshing after the GOM maps, but also easily abuseable due to the racial skills. Thus I would love to see Blizzard FIXING THE BASICS FIRST before adding new nifty stuff to the game. Oh and in case you didnt see my complaint about game 6 yet just scroll up to HERE ... some new stuff will blatantly remove excitement for the price of efficiency. Everything has a price and most of the new stuff is over the top. Yet another of my "ideas" which people have called "potentially awesome" was to use the Viper to simply drag your own Ultralisks around and maybe even into the base of someone else ... thus circumventing any defensive front or army. Dragging them out of a fight is also an option (instead of losing them), but thats not all you can do with that spell since it also works on enemy units. Ultralisk dragThe point is also that Zerg and Protoss get a new bunch of broken spells on top of their already broken abilities and Terrans get nothing. The game wont be fun anymore next year if Blizzard doesnt fix that drastically ... and fixing involves nerfing/removing a lot of stuff. You sound really desperate. How about you wait and see how the changes play out instead of whining from the get-go? Also I find it strange that people now complain about things being over the top, when a lot of stuff in BW was incredibly powerful as well, they just happend to balance each other out. I honestly think that this patch with it's more drastic changes is the correct way to develop the game in the right direction. If nothing gets changed we will just end up with WoL + a few new useless units, and that isn't really what most people want, I feel most people are looking forward to real change compared to WoL. Yes, I might be a bit desperate, but I can explain why. It is really quite simple and it comes from the belief that the game has too much mobility in the game already and that more of it will make it even more random/unpredictable. There are also those abilities which do exactly the opposite and block mobility. It is a fact that the races are different - which is good! - but that not all three races have their own "mobility boosters/leaps" and their own battlefield rearrangers" ... in fact Terran has neither of them. Thus the game is developed in a lopsided way and Terrans getting the short stick really shows that due to the different racial styles you cant have an even distribution of those "nifty skills". Thus the game would be much better off without these skills and with more reliance on actual player micro to make it awesome and interesting. The example of the Bifrost game and Forcefield really shows how the WoL skills already affect the game and kinda "break it" ... The new spells in HotS are just more or less the same and continue the "Terrans get the short stick" trend when it comes to awesome spells. They even found it impossible to buff Seeker Missile/the Thor AA attack without nerfing it at the same time and did nothing for lots of stuff the community complained about for a long time ... while claiming to do stuff the community asked them for with the Oracle. Thus the basics are still just as broken as ever and even the Carrier micro and the merged mech/air upgrades for Terrans [which they shouldnt have done, because that doesnt really make mech better and they will use as an excuse now to not do anything more] wont be enough to really boost that. I am also desperate, because I think the devs at Blizzard have no clue whatsoever what they are really doing ... since they think it makes sense to try and "fix" the game with a sledgehammer 3 months before releasing the expansion. The question you have to ask yourself is "Is it possible for the game to have too much mobility and too many spells in it?" If the answer is no, then you are blessed by the usual "ignorance is bliss", but if the answer is yes you might want to think about the spells - current and HotS - and judge if they add more to the game than they restrict. Examples of restrictions are: Forcefield requires wide ramps or it allows too much abuse; MULE requires no-gold-mineral expansions or it allows abuse ... and so on. This just in.......each race in SC2 is different. you whine way too much
Ok, so you think that there cant be "too much difference" between the races like Terrans getting no blink/forcefield and the other two races getting several. Your choice, but not mine. We will see how it will be once HotS comes out AND once the KeSPA maps are played more often ...
There are quite a few situations in NASL finals game 1 where the Zerg could have saved a few choice units with Vipers and that isnt a good thing ... to reduce the risk involved in a fight ... but apparently making the game safer for one race doesnt make it harder for another.
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On December 09 2012 06:36 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2012 05:50 SuperYo1000 wrote:On December 09 2012 05:12 Rabiator wrote:On December 09 2012 04:28 TimENT wrote:
Everyone seriously just needs to ignore TheRabidDeer and Rabiator in this thread. If you are so sure that I am wrong with what I am saying then please tell me where and ARGUE your point ... if you dont you just "prove" that you cant do it and consequently I am right. On December 08 2012 23:25 Ameisenmann wrote:On December 08 2012 22:38 Rabiator wrote:On December 08 2012 22:14 Qikz wrote:On December 08 2012 22:11 Rabiator wrote:+ Show Spoiler +If he'd had any units he wouldnt have had three bases to defend, but the map really lends itself to abusing that choke towards the third. There are too many abilities in SC2 which allow people to abuse things like this and P/T will have to cover this long path with turrets/cannons to prevent Zerg from landing a Nydus there "behind the front" outside of vision. LOTS of crappy too mobile junk spells and abilities in SC2. + Show Spoiler +He wouldn't have a third if he had no units? Are you serious? At any time he could have built some roaches or spines to defend that part of the map (if they know it's possible, it's easily stopped) and he tech straight to infestors as they're so broken in WOL expecting to hold off any push to his front.
He lost that game fair and square. You don't even need loads of turrets//cannons up there to prevent nyduses, you just need to learn how to play/scout. Anyway, why are you complaining about WoL stuff in the HoTS forum possibly spoiling the games for people who haven't seen them? The point why I am complaining here is that there are too many abilities which are easily abuseable in WoL already and yet "the community" is cheering when Blizzard is about to add even more of them in their next expansion. The whole point is that "too much mobility" is limiting the map makers and the KeSPA maps were really refreshing after the GOM maps, but also easily abuseable due to the racial skills. Thus I would love to see Blizzard FIXING THE BASICS FIRST before adding new nifty stuff to the game. Oh and in case you didnt see my complaint about game 6 yet just scroll up to HERE ... some new stuff will blatantly remove excitement for the price of efficiency. Everything has a price and most of the new stuff is over the top. Yet another of my "ideas" which people have called "potentially awesome" was to use the Viper to simply drag your own Ultralisks around and maybe even into the base of someone else ... thus circumventing any defensive front or army. Dragging them out of a fight is also an option (instead of losing them), but thats not all you can do with that spell since it also works on enemy units. Ultralisk dragThe point is also that Zerg and Protoss get a new bunch of broken spells on top of their already broken abilities and Terrans get nothing. The game wont be fun anymore next year if Blizzard doesnt fix that drastically ... and fixing involves nerfing/removing a lot of stuff. You sound really desperate. How about you wait and see how the changes play out instead of whining from the get-go? Also I find it strange that people now complain about things being over the top, when a lot of stuff in BW was incredibly powerful as well, they just happend to balance each other out. I honestly think that this patch with it's more drastic changes is the correct way to develop the game in the right direction. If nothing gets changed we will just end up with WoL + a few new useless units, and that isn't really what most people want, I feel most people are looking forward to real change compared to WoL. Yes, I might be a bit desperate, but I can explain why. It is really quite simple and it comes from the belief that the game has too much mobility in the game already and that more of it will make it even more random/unpredictable. There are also those abilities which do exactly the opposite and block mobility. It is a fact that the races are different - which is good! - but that not all three races have their own "mobility boosters/leaps" and their own battlefield rearrangers" ... in fact Terran has neither of them. Thus the game is developed in a lopsided way and Terrans getting the short stick really shows that due to the different racial styles you cant have an even distribution of those "nifty skills". Thus the game would be much better off without these skills and with more reliance on actual player micro to make it awesome and interesting. The example of the Bifrost game and Forcefield really shows how the WoL skills already affect the game and kinda "break it" ... The new spells in HotS are just more or less the same and continue the "Terrans get the short stick" trend when it comes to awesome spells. They even found it impossible to buff Seeker Missile/the Thor AA attack without nerfing it at the same time and did nothing for lots of stuff the community complained about for a long time ... while claiming to do stuff the community asked them for with the Oracle. Thus the basics are still just as broken as ever and even the Carrier micro and the merged mech/air upgrades for Terrans [which they shouldnt have done, because that doesnt really make mech better and they will use as an excuse now to not do anything more] wont be enough to really boost that. I am also desperate, because I think the devs at Blizzard have no clue whatsoever what they are really doing ... since they think it makes sense to try and "fix" the game with a sledgehammer 3 months before releasing the expansion. The question you have to ask yourself is "Is it possible for the game to have too much mobility and too many spells in it?" If the answer is no, then you are blessed by the usual "ignorance is bliss", but if the answer is yes you might want to think about the spells - current and HotS - and judge if they add more to the game than they restrict. Examples of restrictions are: Forcefield requires wide ramps or it allows too much abuse; MULE requires no-gold-mineral expansions or it allows abuse ... and so on. This just in.......each race in SC2 is different. you whine way too much Ok, so you think that there cant be "too much difference" between the races like Terrans getting no blink/forcefield and the other two races getting several. Your choice, but not mine. We will see how it will be once HotS comes out AND once the KeSPA maps are played more often ... There are quite a few situations in NASL finals game 1 where the Zerg could have saved a few choice units with Vipers and that isnt a good thing ... to reduce the risk involved in a fight ... but apparently making the game safer for one race doesnt make it harder for another.
Name one Terran unit without any activated ability.
Spoiler: there is exactly one.
Terran IS the activated ability race up to this point in WoL... Nearly each unit has one ability that is designed for it.
And lol, it isn't a good thing to safe units via micro? OK, so remove kiting, make units impossible to load up after shooting for 5seconds... oh wait, those things are a lot of fun and make a difference between good and bad players...
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Terran aren't really hurting for badass abilities.
Its true they don't have a ton of crowd control apart from marauder conc shells, but I don't hink all races need equal amounts of crowd control--in BW, Protoss and Zerg had more Crowd Control options than Terran, and that didn't make Terran UP or less skill intensive or less fun to play.
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On December 09 2012 07:07 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2012 06:36 Rabiator wrote:On December 09 2012 05:50 SuperYo1000 wrote:On December 09 2012 05:12 Rabiator wrote:On December 09 2012 04:28 TimENT wrote:
Everyone seriously just needs to ignore TheRabidDeer and Rabiator in this thread. If you are so sure that I am wrong with what I am saying then please tell me where and ARGUE your point ... if you dont you just "prove" that you cant do it and consequently I am right. On December 08 2012 23:25 Ameisenmann wrote:On December 08 2012 22:38 Rabiator wrote:On December 08 2012 22:14 Qikz wrote:On December 08 2012 22:11 Rabiator wrote:+ Show Spoiler +If he'd had any units he wouldnt have had three bases to defend, but the map really lends itself to abusing that choke towards the third. There are too many abilities in SC2 which allow people to abuse things like this and P/T will have to cover this long path with turrets/cannons to prevent Zerg from landing a Nydus there "behind the front" outside of vision. LOTS of crappy too mobile junk spells and abilities in SC2. + Show Spoiler +He wouldn't have a third if he had no units? Are you serious? At any time he could have built some roaches or spines to defend that part of the map (if they know it's possible, it's easily stopped) and he tech straight to infestors as they're so broken in WOL expecting to hold off any push to his front.
He lost that game fair and square. You don't even need loads of turrets//cannons up there to prevent nyduses, you just need to learn how to play/scout. Anyway, why are you complaining about WoL stuff in the HoTS forum possibly spoiling the games for people who haven't seen them? The point why I am complaining here is that there are too many abilities which are easily abuseable in WoL already and yet "the community" is cheering when Blizzard is about to add even more of them in their next expansion. The whole point is that "too much mobility" is limiting the map makers and the KeSPA maps were really refreshing after the GOM maps, but also easily abuseable due to the racial skills. Thus I would love to see Blizzard FIXING THE BASICS FIRST before adding new nifty stuff to the game. Oh and in case you didnt see my complaint about game 6 yet just scroll up to HERE ... some new stuff will blatantly remove excitement for the price of efficiency. Everything has a price and most of the new stuff is over the top. Yet another of my "ideas" which people have called "potentially awesome" was to use the Viper to simply drag your own Ultralisks around and maybe even into the base of someone else ... thus circumventing any defensive front or army. Dragging them out of a fight is also an option (instead of losing them), but thats not all you can do with that spell since it also works on enemy units. Ultralisk dragThe point is also that Zerg and Protoss get a new bunch of broken spells on top of their already broken abilities and Terrans get nothing. The game wont be fun anymore next year if Blizzard doesnt fix that drastically ... and fixing involves nerfing/removing a lot of stuff. You sound really desperate. How about you wait and see how the changes play out instead of whining from the get-go? Also I find it strange that people now complain about things being over the top, when a lot of stuff in BW was incredibly powerful as well, they just happend to balance each other out. I honestly think that this patch with it's more drastic changes is the correct way to develop the game in the right direction. If nothing gets changed we will just end up with WoL + a few new useless units, and that isn't really what most people want, I feel most people are looking forward to real change compared to WoL. Yes, I might be a bit desperate, but I can explain why. It is really quite simple and it comes from the belief that the game has too much mobility in the game already and that more of it will make it even more random/unpredictable. There are also those abilities which do exactly the opposite and block mobility. It is a fact that the races are different - which is good! - but that not all three races have their own "mobility boosters/leaps" and their own battlefield rearrangers" ... in fact Terran has neither of them. Thus the game is developed in a lopsided way and Terrans getting the short stick really shows that due to the different racial styles you cant have an even distribution of those "nifty skills". Thus the game would be much better off without these skills and with more reliance on actual player micro to make it awesome and interesting. The example of the Bifrost game and Forcefield really shows how the WoL skills already affect the game and kinda "break it" ... The new spells in HotS are just more or less the same and continue the "Terrans get the short stick" trend when it comes to awesome spells. They even found it impossible to buff Seeker Missile/the Thor AA attack without nerfing it at the same time and did nothing for lots of stuff the community complained about for a long time ... while claiming to do stuff the community asked them for with the Oracle. Thus the basics are still just as broken as ever and even the Carrier micro and the merged mech/air upgrades for Terrans [which they shouldnt have done, because that doesnt really make mech better and they will use as an excuse now to not do anything more] wont be enough to really boost that. I am also desperate, because I think the devs at Blizzard have no clue whatsoever what they are really doing ... since they think it makes sense to try and "fix" the game with a sledgehammer 3 months before releasing the expansion. The question you have to ask yourself is "Is it possible for the game to have too much mobility and too many spells in it?" If the answer is no, then you are blessed by the usual "ignorance is bliss", but if the answer is yes you might want to think about the spells - current and HotS - and judge if they add more to the game than they restrict. Examples of restrictions are: Forcefield requires wide ramps or it allows too much abuse; MULE requires no-gold-mineral expansions or it allows abuse ... and so on. This just in.......each race in SC2 is different. you whine way too much Ok, so you think that there cant be "too much difference" between the races like Terrans getting no blink/forcefield and the other two races getting several. Your choice, but not mine. We will see how it will be once HotS comes out AND once the KeSPA maps are played more often ... There are quite a few situations in NASL finals game 1 where the Zerg could have saved a few choice units with Vipers and that isnt a good thing ... to reduce the risk involved in a fight ... but apparently making the game safer for one race doesnt make it harder for another. Name one Terran unit without any activated ability. Spoiler: there is exactly one. Terran IS the activated ability race up to this point in WoL... Nearly each unit has one ability that is designed for it. And lol, it isn't a good thing to safe units via micro? OK, so remove kiting, make units impossible to load up after shooting for 5seconds... oh wait, those things are a lot of fun and make a difference between good and bad players...
I think you're quite right Big J, but what do you mean under activated activity? Is it things you research (then the counterexample is viking or HOTS raven) or is it abilities you activate, like siege mode or stim? If the latter, then the counterexamples are reapers and hellions(sans HOTS).
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I really hope the Map in HotS feature Maps with more space for buildings . Kinda hard to place 10+ Rax 4-5 Fax and 4-5 Starports lategame not to mention depots , ebays and all the other buildings. On most maps lategame my base becomes a clusterfuck .
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On December 09 2012 07:31 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2012 07:07 Big J wrote:On December 09 2012 06:36 Rabiator wrote:On December 09 2012 05:50 SuperYo1000 wrote:On December 09 2012 05:12 Rabiator wrote:On December 09 2012 04:28 TimENT wrote:
Everyone seriously just needs to ignore TheRabidDeer and Rabiator in this thread. If you are so sure that I am wrong with what I am saying then please tell me where and ARGUE your point ... if you dont you just "prove" that you cant do it and consequently I am right. On December 08 2012 23:25 Ameisenmann wrote:On December 08 2012 22:38 Rabiator wrote:On December 08 2012 22:14 Qikz wrote:On December 08 2012 22:11 Rabiator wrote:+ Show Spoiler +If he'd had any units he wouldnt have had three bases to defend, but the map really lends itself to abusing that choke towards the third. There are too many abilities in SC2 which allow people to abuse things like this and P/T will have to cover this long path with turrets/cannons to prevent Zerg from landing a Nydus there "behind the front" outside of vision. LOTS of crappy too mobile junk spells and abilities in SC2. + Show Spoiler +He wouldn't have a third if he had no units? Are you serious? At any time he could have built some roaches or spines to defend that part of the map (if they know it's possible, it's easily stopped) and he tech straight to infestors as they're so broken in WOL expecting to hold off any push to his front.
He lost that game fair and square. You don't even need loads of turrets//cannons up there to prevent nyduses, you just need to learn how to play/scout. Anyway, why are you complaining about WoL stuff in the HoTS forum possibly spoiling the games for people who haven't seen them? The point why I am complaining here is that there are too many abilities which are easily abuseable in WoL already and yet "the community" is cheering when Blizzard is about to add even more of them in their next expansion. The whole point is that "too much mobility" is limiting the map makers and the KeSPA maps were really refreshing after the GOM maps, but also easily abuseable due to the racial skills. Thus I would love to see Blizzard FIXING THE BASICS FIRST before adding new nifty stuff to the game. Oh and in case you didnt see my complaint about game 6 yet just scroll up to HERE ... some new stuff will blatantly remove excitement for the price of efficiency. Everything has a price and most of the new stuff is over the top. Yet another of my "ideas" which people have called "potentially awesome" was to use the Viper to simply drag your own Ultralisks around and maybe even into the base of someone else ... thus circumventing any defensive front or army. Dragging them out of a fight is also an option (instead of losing them), but thats not all you can do with that spell since it also works on enemy units. Ultralisk dragThe point is also that Zerg and Protoss get a new bunch of broken spells on top of their already broken abilities and Terrans get nothing. The game wont be fun anymore next year if Blizzard doesnt fix that drastically ... and fixing involves nerfing/removing a lot of stuff. You sound really desperate. How about you wait and see how the changes play out instead of whining from the get-go? Also I find it strange that people now complain about things being over the top, when a lot of stuff in BW was incredibly powerful as well, they just happend to balance each other out. I honestly think that this patch with it's more drastic changes is the correct way to develop the game in the right direction. If nothing gets changed we will just end up with WoL + a few new useless units, and that isn't really what most people want, I feel most people are looking forward to real change compared to WoL. Yes, I might be a bit desperate, but I can explain why. It is really quite simple and it comes from the belief that the game has too much mobility in the game already and that more of it will make it even more random/unpredictable. There are also those abilities which do exactly the opposite and block mobility. It is a fact that the races are different - which is good! - but that not all three races have their own "mobility boosters/leaps" and their own battlefield rearrangers" ... in fact Terran has neither of them. Thus the game is developed in a lopsided way and Terrans getting the short stick really shows that due to the different racial styles you cant have an even distribution of those "nifty skills". Thus the game would be much better off without these skills and with more reliance on actual player micro to make it awesome and interesting. The example of the Bifrost game and Forcefield really shows how the WoL skills already affect the game and kinda "break it" ... The new spells in HotS are just more or less the same and continue the "Terrans get the short stick" trend when it comes to awesome spells. They even found it impossible to buff Seeker Missile/the Thor AA attack without nerfing it at the same time and did nothing for lots of stuff the community complained about for a long time ... while claiming to do stuff the community asked them for with the Oracle. Thus the basics are still just as broken as ever and even the Carrier micro and the merged mech/air upgrades for Terrans [which they shouldnt have done, because that doesnt really make mech better and they will use as an excuse now to not do anything more] wont be enough to really boost that. I am also desperate, because I think the devs at Blizzard have no clue whatsoever what they are really doing ... since they think it makes sense to try and "fix" the game with a sledgehammer 3 months before releasing the expansion. The question you have to ask yourself is "Is it possible for the game to have too much mobility and too many spells in it?" If the answer is no, then you are blessed by the usual "ignorance is bliss", but if the answer is yes you might want to think about the spells - current and HotS - and judge if they add more to the game than they restrict. Examples of restrictions are: Forcefield requires wide ramps or it allows too much abuse; MULE requires no-gold-mineral expansions or it allows abuse ... and so on. This just in.......each race in SC2 is different. you whine way too much Ok, so you think that there cant be "too much difference" between the races like Terrans getting no blink/forcefield and the other two races getting several. Your choice, but not mine. We will see how it will be once HotS comes out AND once the KeSPA maps are played more often ... There are quite a few situations in NASL finals game 1 where the Zerg could have saved a few choice units with Vipers and that isnt a good thing ... to reduce the risk involved in a fight ... but apparently making the game safer for one race doesnt make it harder for another. Name one Terran unit without any activated ability. Spoiler: there is exactly one. Terran IS the activated ability race up to this point in WoL... Nearly each unit has one ability that is designed for it. And lol, it isn't a good thing to safe units via micro? OK, so remove kiting, make units impossible to load up after shooting for 5seconds... oh wait, those things are a lot of fun and make a difference between good and bad players... I think you're quite right Big J, but what do you mean under activated activity? Is it things you research (then the counterexample is viking or HOTS raven) or is it abilities you activate, like siege mode or stim? If the latter, then the counterexamples are reapers and hellions(sans HOTS).
Well, yeah. I was only thinking of the reaper (HOTS discussion forum) - so the latter.
I mean, it's of course discussable to which degree mode switching, heal and drop abilities, repair and cloaking should be considered "abilities". But well, then we need a much more neat definition than "it has a nonstandard-button I can click on". And in the end, those things are what defines a lot of things. Just to clarify, why I think it is important to consider those things abilities:
Thinking about how different Terran would be, if
-) SCVs couldn't repair (passive healing mechanism for could be employed - it wouldn't be the same by far)
-) banshees were balanced around being always cloaked
-) Vikings couldn't land at all (extremly different play in a lot of TvT situations)
It's those abilities that can define the identity of a unit in very positive ways. Units like Zerglings that are "only" fast/costefficient/melee can be interesting. But hey, the better player is going to burrow one at each expansion!
The better player is going to use blink more frequently. The better player will have his charged void rays just in time and for as long as possible.
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Medivac change is disgusting. It weakens the effectiveness of gateway units from protoss and early zerg units. Its effect will be like critical mass - if you cant break it, you are dead ASAP. I wonder how they did come with such a change. It doesnt reward anything for good player (the caduceus reactor upgrade). It just stupendously strong passive ability. No way this should make it to the release..
On a side note, a lot of other changes are interesting and will force a lot of playstyles, which im happy about.
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On December 09 2012 07:07 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2012 06:36 Rabiator wrote:On December 09 2012 05:50 SuperYo1000 wrote:On December 09 2012 05:12 Rabiator wrote:On December 09 2012 04:28 TimENT wrote:
Everyone seriously just needs to ignore TheRabidDeer and Rabiator in this thread. If you are so sure that I am wrong with what I am saying then please tell me where and ARGUE your point ... if you dont you just "prove" that you cant do it and consequently I am right. On December 08 2012 23:25 Ameisenmann wrote:On December 08 2012 22:38 Rabiator wrote:On December 08 2012 22:14 Qikz wrote:On December 08 2012 22:11 Rabiator wrote:+ Show Spoiler +If he'd had any units he wouldnt have had three bases to defend, but the map really lends itself to abusing that choke towards the third. There are too many abilities in SC2 which allow people to abuse things like this and P/T will have to cover this long path with turrets/cannons to prevent Zerg from landing a Nydus there "behind the front" outside of vision. LOTS of crappy too mobile junk spells and abilities in SC2. + Show Spoiler +He wouldn't have a third if he had no units? Are you serious? At any time he could have built some roaches or spines to defend that part of the map (if they know it's possible, it's easily stopped) and he tech straight to infestors as they're so broken in WOL expecting to hold off any push to his front.
He lost that game fair and square. You don't even need loads of turrets//cannons up there to prevent nyduses, you just need to learn how to play/scout. Anyway, why are you complaining about WoL stuff in the HoTS forum possibly spoiling the games for people who haven't seen them? The point why I am complaining here is that there are too many abilities which are easily abuseable in WoL already and yet "the community" is cheering when Blizzard is about to add even more of them in their next expansion. The whole point is that "too much mobility" is limiting the map makers and the KeSPA maps were really refreshing after the GOM maps, but also easily abuseable due to the racial skills. Thus I would love to see Blizzard FIXING THE BASICS FIRST before adding new nifty stuff to the game. Oh and in case you didnt see my complaint about game 6 yet just scroll up to HERE ... some new stuff will blatantly remove excitement for the price of efficiency. Everything has a price and most of the new stuff is over the top. Yet another of my "ideas" which people have called "potentially awesome" was to use the Viper to simply drag your own Ultralisks around and maybe even into the base of someone else ... thus circumventing any defensive front or army. Dragging them out of a fight is also an option (instead of losing them), but thats not all you can do with that spell since it also works on enemy units. Ultralisk dragThe point is also that Zerg and Protoss get a new bunch of broken spells on top of their already broken abilities and Terrans get nothing. The game wont be fun anymore next year if Blizzard doesnt fix that drastically ... and fixing involves nerfing/removing a lot of stuff. You sound really desperate. How about you wait and see how the changes play out instead of whining from the get-go? Also I find it strange that people now complain about things being over the top, when a lot of stuff in BW was incredibly powerful as well, they just happend to balance each other out. I honestly think that this patch with it's more drastic changes is the correct way to develop the game in the right direction. If nothing gets changed we will just end up with WoL + a few new useless units, and that isn't really what most people want, I feel most people are looking forward to real change compared to WoL. Yes, I might be a bit desperate, but I can explain why. It is really quite simple and it comes from the belief that the game has too much mobility in the game already and that more of it will make it even more random/unpredictable. There are also those abilities which do exactly the opposite and block mobility. It is a fact that the races are different - which is good! - but that not all three races have their own "mobility boosters/leaps" and their own battlefield rearrangers" ... in fact Terran has neither of them. Thus the game is developed in a lopsided way and Terrans getting the short stick really shows that due to the different racial styles you cant have an even distribution of those "nifty skills". Thus the game would be much better off without these skills and with more reliance on actual player micro to make it awesome and interesting. The example of the Bifrost game and Forcefield really shows how the WoL skills already affect the game and kinda "break it" ... The new spells in HotS are just more or less the same and continue the "Terrans get the short stick" trend when it comes to awesome spells. They even found it impossible to buff Seeker Missile/the Thor AA attack without nerfing it at the same time and did nothing for lots of stuff the community complained about for a long time ... while claiming to do stuff the community asked them for with the Oracle. Thus the basics are still just as broken as ever and even the Carrier micro and the merged mech/air upgrades for Terrans [which they shouldnt have done, because that doesnt really make mech better and they will use as an excuse now to not do anything more] wont be enough to really boost that. I am also desperate, because I think the devs at Blizzard have no clue whatsoever what they are really doing ... since they think it makes sense to try and "fix" the game with a sledgehammer 3 months before releasing the expansion. The question you have to ask yourself is "Is it possible for the game to have too much mobility and too many spells in it?" If the answer is no, then you are blessed by the usual "ignorance is bliss", but if the answer is yes you might want to think about the spells - current and HotS - and judge if they add more to the game than they restrict. Examples of restrictions are: Forcefield requires wide ramps or it allows too much abuse; MULE requires no-gold-mineral expansions or it allows abuse ... and so on. This just in.......each race in SC2 is different. you whine way too much Ok, so you think that there cant be "too much difference" between the races like Terrans getting no blink/forcefield and the other two races getting several. Your choice, but not mine. We will see how it will be once HotS comes out AND once the KeSPA maps are played more often ... There are quite a few situations in NASL finals game 1 where the Zerg could have saved a few choice units with Vipers and that isnt a good thing ... to reduce the risk involved in a fight ... but apparently making the game safer for one race doesnt make it harder for another. Name one Terran unit without any activated ability. Spoiler: there is exactly one. Terran IS the activated ability race up to this point in WoL... Nearly each unit has one ability that is designed for it. And lol, it isn't a good thing to safe units via micro? OK, so remove kiting, make units impossible to load up after shooting for 5seconds... oh wait, those things are a lot of fun and make a difference between good and bad players...
Mate, just ignore Rabiator. He's like that kid next door who can only play one note on his broken guitar, over and over and over. It's a little irritating, at first, but, after a while, you get used to it and it fades into the background. No worries, no fuss.
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On December 09 2012 06:36 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2012 05:50 SuperYo1000 wrote:On December 09 2012 05:12 Rabiator wrote:On December 09 2012 04:28 TimENT wrote:
Everyone seriously just needs to ignore TheRabidDeer and Rabiator in this thread. If you are so sure that I am wrong with what I am saying then please tell me where and ARGUE your point ... if you dont you just "prove" that you cant do it and consequently I am right. On December 08 2012 23:25 Ameisenmann wrote:On December 08 2012 22:38 Rabiator wrote:On December 08 2012 22:14 Qikz wrote:On December 08 2012 22:11 Rabiator wrote:+ Show Spoiler +If he'd had any units he wouldnt have had three bases to defend, but the map really lends itself to abusing that choke towards the third. There are too many abilities in SC2 which allow people to abuse things like this and P/T will have to cover this long path with turrets/cannons to prevent Zerg from landing a Nydus there "behind the front" outside of vision. LOTS of crappy too mobile junk spells and abilities in SC2. + Show Spoiler +He wouldn't have a third if he had no units? Are you serious? At any time he could have built some roaches or spines to defend that part of the map (if they know it's possible, it's easily stopped) and he tech straight to infestors as they're so broken in WOL expecting to hold off any push to his front.
He lost that game fair and square. You don't even need loads of turrets//cannons up there to prevent nyduses, you just need to learn how to play/scout. Anyway, why are you complaining about WoL stuff in the HoTS forum possibly spoiling the games for people who haven't seen them? The point why I am complaining here is that there are too many abilities which are easily abuseable in WoL already and yet "the community" is cheering when Blizzard is about to add even more of them in their next expansion. The whole point is that "too much mobility" is limiting the map makers and the KeSPA maps were really refreshing after the GOM maps, but also easily abuseable due to the racial skills. Thus I would love to see Blizzard FIXING THE BASICS FIRST before adding new nifty stuff to the game. Oh and in case you didnt see my complaint about game 6 yet just scroll up to HERE ... some new stuff will blatantly remove excitement for the price of efficiency. Everything has a price and most of the new stuff is over the top. Yet another of my "ideas" which people have called "potentially awesome" was to use the Viper to simply drag your own Ultralisks around and maybe even into the base of someone else ... thus circumventing any defensive front or army. Dragging them out of a fight is also an option (instead of losing them), but thats not all you can do with that spell since it also works on enemy units. Ultralisk dragThe point is also that Zerg and Protoss get a new bunch of broken spells on top of their already broken abilities and Terrans get nothing. The game wont be fun anymore next year if Blizzard doesnt fix that drastically ... and fixing involves nerfing/removing a lot of stuff. You sound really desperate. How about you wait and see how the changes play out instead of whining from the get-go? Also I find it strange that people now complain about things being over the top, when a lot of stuff in BW was incredibly powerful as well, they just happend to balance each other out. I honestly think that this patch with it's more drastic changes is the correct way to develop the game in the right direction. If nothing gets changed we will just end up with WoL + a few new useless units, and that isn't really what most people want, I feel most people are looking forward to real change compared to WoL. Yes, I might be a bit desperate, but I can explain why. It is really quite simple and it comes from the belief that the game has too much mobility in the game already and that more of it will make it even more random/unpredictable. There are also those abilities which do exactly the opposite and block mobility. It is a fact that the races are different - which is good! - but that not all three races have their own "mobility boosters/leaps" and their own battlefield rearrangers" ... in fact Terran has neither of them. Thus the game is developed in a lopsided way and Terrans getting the short stick really shows that due to the different racial styles you cant have an even distribution of those "nifty skills". Thus the game would be much better off without these skills and with more reliance on actual player micro to make it awesome and interesting. The example of the Bifrost game and Forcefield really shows how the WoL skills already affect the game and kinda "break it" ... The new spells in HotS are just more or less the same and continue the "Terrans get the short stick" trend when it comes to awesome spells. They even found it impossible to buff Seeker Missile/the Thor AA attack without nerfing it at the same time and did nothing for lots of stuff the community complained about for a long time ... while claiming to do stuff the community asked them for with the Oracle. Thus the basics are still just as broken as ever and even the Carrier micro and the merged mech/air upgrades for Terrans [which they shouldnt have done, because that doesnt really make mech better and they will use as an excuse now to not do anything more] wont be enough to really boost that. I am also desperate, because I think the devs at Blizzard have no clue whatsoever what they are really doing ... since they think it makes sense to try and "fix" the game with a sledgehammer 3 months before releasing the expansion. The question you have to ask yourself is "Is it possible for the game to have too much mobility and too many spells in it?" If the answer is no, then you are blessed by the usual "ignorance is bliss", but if the answer is yes you might want to think about the spells - current and HotS - and judge if they add more to the game than they restrict. Examples of restrictions are: Forcefield requires wide ramps or it allows too much abuse; MULE requires no-gold-mineral expansions or it allows abuse ... and so on. This just in.......each race in SC2 is different. you whine way too much Ok, so you think that there cant be "too much difference" between the races like Terrans getting no blink/forcefield and the other two races getting several. Your choice, but not mine. We will see how it will be once HotS comes out AND once the KeSPA maps are played more often ... There are quite a few situations in NASL finals game 1 where the Zerg could have saved a few choice units with Vipers and that isnt a good thing ... to reduce the risk involved in a fight ... but apparently making the game safer for one race doesnt make it harder for another.
Dude, just stop.. Every single time I see your spam posts in all these threads it's horrible terran balance whine written in the longest way possible, either that or wrong stuff.
Like that time you said zerg players should neural ultras in ZvZ or that swarm hosts required too much attention from the terran player to deal with. Or that zerg players should pull ultras into marines with vipers. Do you seriously think all that? You are just a terrible poster, please stop spamming like that.
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On December 09 2012 08:08 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2012 07:31 Ghanburighan wrote:On December 09 2012 07:07 Big J wrote:On December 09 2012 06:36 Rabiator wrote:On December 09 2012 05:50 SuperYo1000 wrote:On December 09 2012 05:12 Rabiator wrote:On December 09 2012 04:28 TimENT wrote:
Everyone seriously just needs to ignore TheRabidDeer and Rabiator in this thread. If you are so sure that I am wrong with what I am saying then please tell me where and ARGUE your point ... if you dont you just "prove" that you cant do it and consequently I am right. On December 08 2012 23:25 Ameisenmann wrote:On December 08 2012 22:38 Rabiator wrote:On December 08 2012 22:14 Qikz wrote:On December 08 2012 22:11 Rabiator wrote:+ Show Spoiler +If he'd had any units he wouldnt have had three bases to defend, but the map really lends itself to abusing that choke towards the third. There are too many abilities in SC2 which allow people to abuse things like this and P/T will have to cover this long path with turrets/cannons to prevent Zerg from landing a Nydus there "behind the front" outside of vision. LOTS of crappy too mobile junk spells and abilities in SC2. + Show Spoiler +He wouldn't have a third if he had no units? Are you serious? At any time he could have built some roaches or spines to defend that part of the map (if they know it's possible, it's easily stopped) and he tech straight to infestors as they're so broken in WOL expecting to hold off any push to his front.
He lost that game fair and square. You don't even need loads of turrets//cannons up there to prevent nyduses, you just need to learn how to play/scout. Anyway, why are you complaining about WoL stuff in the HoTS forum possibly spoiling the games for people who haven't seen them? The point why I am complaining here is that there are too many abilities which are easily abuseable in WoL already and yet "the community" is cheering when Blizzard is about to add even more of them in their next expansion. The whole point is that "too much mobility" is limiting the map makers and the KeSPA maps were really refreshing after the GOM maps, but also easily abuseable due to the racial skills. Thus I would love to see Blizzard FIXING THE BASICS FIRST before adding new nifty stuff to the game. Oh and in case you didnt see my complaint about game 6 yet just scroll up to HERE ... some new stuff will blatantly remove excitement for the price of efficiency. Everything has a price and most of the new stuff is over the top. Yet another of my "ideas" which people have called "potentially awesome" was to use the Viper to simply drag your own Ultralisks around and maybe even into the base of someone else ... thus circumventing any defensive front or army. Dragging them out of a fight is also an option (instead of losing them), but thats not all you can do with that spell since it also works on enemy units. Ultralisk dragThe point is also that Zerg and Protoss get a new bunch of broken spells on top of their already broken abilities and Terrans get nothing. The game wont be fun anymore next year if Blizzard doesnt fix that drastically ... and fixing involves nerfing/removing a lot of stuff. You sound really desperate. How about you wait and see how the changes play out instead of whining from the get-go? Also I find it strange that people now complain about things being over the top, when a lot of stuff in BW was incredibly powerful as well, they just happend to balance each other out. I honestly think that this patch with it's more drastic changes is the correct way to develop the game in the right direction. If nothing gets changed we will just end up with WoL + a few new useless units, and that isn't really what most people want, I feel most people are looking forward to real change compared to WoL. Yes, I might be a bit desperate, but I can explain why. It is really quite simple and it comes from the belief that the game has too much mobility in the game already and that more of it will make it even more random/unpredictable. There are also those abilities which do exactly the opposite and block mobility. It is a fact that the races are different - which is good! - but that not all three races have their own "mobility boosters/leaps" and their own battlefield rearrangers" ... in fact Terran has neither of them. Thus the game is developed in a lopsided way and Terrans getting the short stick really shows that due to the different racial styles you cant have an even distribution of those "nifty skills". Thus the game would be much better off without these skills and with more reliance on actual player micro to make it awesome and interesting. The example of the Bifrost game and Forcefield really shows how the WoL skills already affect the game and kinda "break it" ... The new spells in HotS are just more or less the same and continue the "Terrans get the short stick" trend when it comes to awesome spells. They even found it impossible to buff Seeker Missile/the Thor AA attack without nerfing it at the same time and did nothing for lots of stuff the community complained about for a long time ... while claiming to do stuff the community asked them for with the Oracle. Thus the basics are still just as broken as ever and even the Carrier micro and the merged mech/air upgrades for Terrans [which they shouldnt have done, because that doesnt really make mech better and they will use as an excuse now to not do anything more] wont be enough to really boost that. I am also desperate, because I think the devs at Blizzard have no clue whatsoever what they are really doing ... since they think it makes sense to try and "fix" the game with a sledgehammer 3 months before releasing the expansion. The question you have to ask yourself is "Is it possible for the game to have too much mobility and too many spells in it?" If the answer is no, then you are blessed by the usual "ignorance is bliss", but if the answer is yes you might want to think about the spells - current and HotS - and judge if they add more to the game than they restrict. Examples of restrictions are: Forcefield requires wide ramps or it allows too much abuse; MULE requires no-gold-mineral expansions or it allows abuse ... and so on. This just in.......each race in SC2 is different. you whine way too much Ok, so you think that there cant be "too much difference" between the races like Terrans getting no blink/forcefield and the other two races getting several. Your choice, but not mine. We will see how it will be once HotS comes out AND once the KeSPA maps are played more often ... There are quite a few situations in NASL finals game 1 where the Zerg could have saved a few choice units with Vipers and that isnt a good thing ... to reduce the risk involved in a fight ... but apparently making the game safer for one race doesnt make it harder for another. Name one Terran unit without any activated ability. Spoiler: there is exactly one. Terran IS the activated ability race up to this point in WoL... Nearly each unit has one ability that is designed for it. And lol, it isn't a good thing to safe units via micro? OK, so remove kiting, make units impossible to load up after shooting for 5seconds... oh wait, those things are a lot of fun and make a difference between good and bad players... I think you're quite right Big J, but what do you mean under activated activity? Is it things you research (then the counterexample is viking or HOTS raven) or is it abilities you activate, like siege mode or stim? If the latter, then the counterexamples are reapers and hellions(sans HOTS). Well, yeah. I was only thinking of the reaper (HOTS discussion forum) - so the latter. I mean, it's of course discussable to which degree mode switching, heal and drop abilities, repair and cloaking should be considered "abilities". But well, then we need a much more neat definition than "it has a nonstandard-button I can click on". And in the end, those things are what defines a lot of things. Just to clarify, why I think it is important to consider those things abilities: Thinking about how different Terran would be, if -) SCVs couldn't repair (passive healing mechanism for could be employed - it wouldn't be the same by far) -) banshees were balanced around being always cloaked -) Vikings couldn't land at all (extremly different play in a lot of TvT situations) It's those abilities that can define the identity of a unit in very positive ways. Units like Zerglings that are "only" fast/costefficient/melee can be interesting. But hey, the better player is going to burrow one at each expansion! The better player is going to use blink more frequently. The better player will have his charged void rays just in time and for as long as possible.
Ok, then I see what you meant. A useful but more vague metric is to consider the amount a unit improves in the hand of a skillful player. For example, WoL hellions can be absolutely deadly when controlled by Polt or MKP and pretty ineffective when used by another (or especially by a casual like me...). For a long time I thought lings afforded little benefit from micro but Life has shown that I was wrong. Let's hope that in HOTS the game moves towards getting more out of micro.
I think Blizz still needs to look at Protoss, though. Many of the most common units do not benefit from micro: colossus is the old culprit but zealots are generally not microed past early-game pvp, archons are perhaps target fired, and immortals are target fired (and hidden in the back). Compared to what has become of terran, there is a lot less that a skillful P can do to distinguish himself from an average P.
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On December 09 2012 05:10 Kpaxlol wrote:
WTF is up with the vortex ? It's .. useless ? Why would you even cast it ?
You won't, Blizzard said they wanted to phase it out of competitive play but still be in the game for fun team game scenarios.
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On December 09 2012 08:47 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2012 08:08 Big J wrote:On December 09 2012 07:31 Ghanburighan wrote:On December 09 2012 07:07 Big J wrote:On December 09 2012 06:36 Rabiator wrote:On December 09 2012 05:50 SuperYo1000 wrote:On December 09 2012 05:12 Rabiator wrote:On December 09 2012 04:28 TimENT wrote:
Everyone seriously just needs to ignore TheRabidDeer and Rabiator in this thread. If you are so sure that I am wrong with what I am saying then please tell me where and ARGUE your point ... if you dont you just "prove" that you cant do it and consequently I am right. On December 08 2012 23:25 Ameisenmann wrote:On December 08 2012 22:38 Rabiator wrote:On December 08 2012 22:14 Qikz wrote:[quote] + Show Spoiler +He wouldn't have a third if he had no units? Are you serious? At any time he could have built some roaches or spines to defend that part of the map (if they know it's possible, it's easily stopped) and he tech straight to infestors as they're so broken in WOL expecting to hold off any push to his front.
He lost that game fair and square. You don't even need loads of turrets//cannons up there to prevent nyduses, you just need to learn how to play/scout. Anyway, why are you complaining about WoL stuff in the HoTS forum possibly spoiling the games for people who haven't seen them? The point why I am complaining here is that there are too many abilities which are easily abuseable in WoL already and yet "the community" is cheering when Blizzard is about to add even more of them in their next expansion. The whole point is that "too much mobility" is limiting the map makers and the KeSPA maps were really refreshing after the GOM maps, but also easily abuseable due to the racial skills. Thus I would love to see Blizzard FIXING THE BASICS FIRST before adding new nifty stuff to the game. Oh and in case you didnt see my complaint about game 6 yet just scroll up to HERE ... some new stuff will blatantly remove excitement for the price of efficiency. Everything has a price and most of the new stuff is over the top. Yet another of my "ideas" which people have called "potentially awesome" was to use the Viper to simply drag your own Ultralisks around and maybe even into the base of someone else ... thus circumventing any defensive front or army. Dragging them out of a fight is also an option (instead of losing them), but thats not all you can do with that spell since it also works on enemy units. Ultralisk dragThe point is also that Zerg and Protoss get a new bunch of broken spells on top of their already broken abilities and Terrans get nothing. The game wont be fun anymore next year if Blizzard doesnt fix that drastically ... and fixing involves nerfing/removing a lot of stuff. You sound really desperate. How about you wait and see how the changes play out instead of whining from the get-go? Also I find it strange that people now complain about things being over the top, when a lot of stuff in BW was incredibly powerful as well, they just happend to balance each other out. I honestly think that this patch with it's more drastic changes is the correct way to develop the game in the right direction. If nothing gets changed we will just end up with WoL + a few new useless units, and that isn't really what most people want, I feel most people are looking forward to real change compared to WoL. Yes, I might be a bit desperate, but I can explain why. It is really quite simple and it comes from the belief that the game has too much mobility in the game already and that more of it will make it even more random/unpredictable. There are also those abilities which do exactly the opposite and block mobility. It is a fact that the races are different - which is good! - but that not all three races have their own "mobility boosters/leaps" and their own battlefield rearrangers" ... in fact Terran has neither of them. Thus the game is developed in a lopsided way and Terrans getting the short stick really shows that due to the different racial styles you cant have an even distribution of those "nifty skills". Thus the game would be much better off without these skills and with more reliance on actual player micro to make it awesome and interesting. The example of the Bifrost game and Forcefield really shows how the WoL skills already affect the game and kinda "break it" ... The new spells in HotS are just more or less the same and continue the "Terrans get the short stick" trend when it comes to awesome spells. They even found it impossible to buff Seeker Missile/the Thor AA attack without nerfing it at the same time and did nothing for lots of stuff the community complained about for a long time ... while claiming to do stuff the community asked them for with the Oracle. Thus the basics are still just as broken as ever and even the Carrier micro and the merged mech/air upgrades for Terrans [which they shouldnt have done, because that doesnt really make mech better and they will use as an excuse now to not do anything more] wont be enough to really boost that. I am also desperate, because I think the devs at Blizzard have no clue whatsoever what they are really doing ... since they think it makes sense to try and "fix" the game with a sledgehammer 3 months before releasing the expansion. The question you have to ask yourself is "Is it possible for the game to have too much mobility and too many spells in it?" If the answer is no, then you are blessed by the usual "ignorance is bliss", but if the answer is yes you might want to think about the spells - current and HotS - and judge if they add more to the game than they restrict. Examples of restrictions are: Forcefield requires wide ramps or it allows too much abuse; MULE requires no-gold-mineral expansions or it allows abuse ... and so on. This just in.......each race in SC2 is different. you whine way too much Ok, so you think that there cant be "too much difference" between the races like Terrans getting no blink/forcefield and the other two races getting several. Your choice, but not mine. We will see how it will be once HotS comes out AND once the KeSPA maps are played more often ... There are quite a few situations in NASL finals game 1 where the Zerg could have saved a few choice units with Vipers and that isnt a good thing ... to reduce the risk involved in a fight ... but apparently making the game safer for one race doesnt make it harder for another. Name one Terran unit without any activated ability. Spoiler: there is exactly one. Terran IS the activated ability race up to this point in WoL... Nearly each unit has one ability that is designed for it. And lol, it isn't a good thing to safe units via micro? OK, so remove kiting, make units impossible to load up after shooting for 5seconds... oh wait, those things are a lot of fun and make a difference between good and bad players... I think you're quite right Big J, but what do you mean under activated activity? Is it things you research (then the counterexample is viking or HOTS raven) or is it abilities you activate, like siege mode or stim? If the latter, then the counterexamples are reapers and hellions(sans HOTS). Well, yeah. I was only thinking of the reaper (HOTS discussion forum) - so the latter. I mean, it's of course discussable to which degree mode switching, heal and drop abilities, repair and cloaking should be considered "abilities". But well, then we need a much more neat definition than "it has a nonstandard-button I can click on". And in the end, those things are what defines a lot of things. Just to clarify, why I think it is important to consider those things abilities: Thinking about how different Terran would be, if -) SCVs couldn't repair (passive healing mechanism for could be employed - it wouldn't be the same by far) -) banshees were balanced around being always cloaked -) Vikings couldn't land at all (extremly different play in a lot of TvT situations) It's those abilities that can define the identity of a unit in very positive ways. Units like Zerglings that are "only" fast/costefficient/melee can be interesting. But hey, the better player is going to burrow one at each expansion! The better player is going to use blink more frequently. The better player will have his charged void rays just in time and for as long as possible. Ok, then I see what you meant. A useful but more vague metric is to consider the amount a unit improves in the hand of a skillful player. For example, WoL hellions can be absolutely deadly when controlled by Polt or MKP and pretty ineffective when used by another (or especially by a casual like me...). For a long time I thought lings afforded little benefit from micro but Life has shown that I was wrong. Let's hope that in HOTS the game moves towards getting more out of micro. I think Blizz still needs to look at Protoss, though. Many of the most common units do not benefit from micro: colossus is the old culprit but zealots are generally not microed past early-game pvp, archons are perhaps target fired, and immortals are target fired (and hidden in the back). Compared to what has become of terran, there is a lot less that a skillful P can do to distinguish himself from an average P.
Agreed, the variable that is actually interesting is how much skill increase something allows. The problem is, that it is not easily seeable. True, it could be expected that fast, 6range stalkers at some point will be able to kite 5range marines. But it took Protoss players until mid 2011 to really be able to explore builds that relied upon 1-2 stalkers "containing" a Terran early and it turned out to be a non-factor in the longrun. On the other hand, kiting turned out as a huge factor for many units, especially bio. Those things are achieved by unit stats. The problem on the other hand is, that for every unit that can improve its potential by micro through stats, there must be an opposing unit that cannot do much about that (usually apart from disengaging). So I really think it is a great way to give micro potential back to those units (that are kind of in a hard spot due to stats), by giving them "buttons to press".
For example Void Rays: They aren't really fast, they don't have really long range and no huge burst... This makes for a unit that is usually always on the "receiving end" of well-controlled battles. Giving it a button that you can press in the right situations can give it a lot more interesting dynamics.
I also think that Blizzard should take some looks at P (and Z) for the reasons you mentioned. There are many interesting units in the game, that are "just slightly off". Namely (a few): Charge-Zealots (like making charging slightly harder and slightly better), Colossus (more balanced around kiting, so it actually must and can use it huge range + cliffwalk dynamic), Roaches (burrow regeneration, low range as core parts of its design), Corruptors (give it an interesting button to hit), Ultralisks (just kind of boring unit on its own)
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What's the status of the new medivac + bio? I haven't watched any streams after the patch. Can anyone enlighten me of its strength?
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On December 09 2012 11:21 larse wrote:
What's the status of the new medivac + bio? I haven't watched any streams after the patch. Can anyone enlighten me of its strength?
Pretty strong . you need burst damage/ aoe damage to kill Bio with the new Medivacs even more. In TvT it's around as strong as having 1 more round of marine upgrades in a marine fight. It doesn't make Bio invinceable but it's noticeable. There's fights where you barely lose any unit if the opponent has the wrong unit composition. Feels like an extra round of Bio upgrades .
Especially pure Gate-non-sense will die really BAD forcefields or not you just roll pure Gateway units just like you're would if you're ahead in Upgrade. If you're behind in Upgrades as well puh don't even think about trying to fight Bio with Super medivacs.
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On December 09 2012 11:33 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2012 11:21 larse wrote:
What's the status of the new medivac + bio? I haven't watched any streams after the patch. Can anyone enlighten me of its strength? Pretty strong . you need burst damage/ aoe damage to kill Bio with the new Medivacs even more. In TvT it's around as strong as having 1 more round of marine upgrades in a marine fight. It doesn't make Bio invinceable but it's noticeable. There's fights where you barely lose any unit if the opponent has the wrong unit composition. Feels like an extra round of Bio upgrades . Especially pure Gate-non-sense will die really BAD forcefields or not you just roll pure Gateway units.
OK. So it amplifies the problem of gateway units even more? Seems like not a good change at all. Maybe to make Bio stronger in the late-game, they should change the ghost. Or the change to medivac's healing is not necessary.
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On December 09 2012 11:39 larse wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2012 11:33 s3rp wrote:On December 09 2012 11:21 larse wrote:
What's the status of the new medivac + bio? I haven't watched any streams after the patch. Can anyone enlighten me of its strength? Pretty strong . you need burst damage/ aoe damage to kill Bio with the new Medivacs even more. In TvT it's around as strong as having 1 more round of marine upgrades in a marine fight. It doesn't make Bio invinceable but it's noticeable. There's fights where you barely lose any unit if the opponent has the wrong unit composition. Feels like an extra round of Bio upgrades . Especially pure Gate-non-sense will die really BAD forcefields or not you just roll pure Gateway units. OK. So it amplifies the problem of gateway units even more? Seems like not a good change at all. Maybe to make Bio stronger in the late-game, they should change the ghost. Or the change to medivac's healing is not necessary.
I'm not sure how strong the new stargate stuff against this is because nobody tried this yet against me other than a few Oracles harrassing. But Colossi / Storm still melts Bio pretty well . Just the 1a Archon / Zealot combo is dead which isn't bad .
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EPT
