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well shut down means nobody will do it anymore vs mines because its horribly ineffective to trade 100 or 125 gas for 25 gas. that is the problem. you say: bring an overseer and snipe the mine with a muta. first of all: all mutas now move 40% slower because they always have to wait for the overseer. 2nd: you lose 1 muta because of the single target damage. always. even if you play perfect, bring overseer and avoid splash you still lose 1 muta. and thats with PERFECT play. so the mine has paid for 4 new mines if it kills 1 muta or 1 banshee or 1 DT or 1 dropship.
so by shut down i mean no one will even start to go mutas/banshees/DTs/drops vs mines anymore because it is just ineffective since 1 mine always kills at least 1 muta/banshee/DT/drop. thats no problem balancewise since instead of mutas you can go infestors, instead of banshee or DTs you can go for non-harrass play and instead of bio with mass drop play you can go marine tank or mech. but it removes a lot of strategies from the game and the worst thing: it removes the most fun and skillful strategies from the game or at least is a very huge nerf to those. which blizzard btw realized and stated they will buff mutas/banshees/DTs and dropplay some days ago!
On December 03 2012 00:51 blarkh wrote:
Also, the target of the mine isn't luck based. It's based on how well the enemy player is, i.e. will he send lings in first or not. This encourages micro. Hurray!
nope. thats why i wrote it is luckbased in big fights. you are right for small fights or alone mines that arent protected by other units. thats where the mine increases micro.
but imagine a marine tank army that has some mines spread out in between units. now the zerg attacks this army with an ultra ling army. you cant send in single lings because lings are killed before they activate the mine. so zerg now moves in with his army and what happens is that the single target damage either hits lings or ultras which is completely luck based but has a huge effect on the fight. sometimes terran will be lucky, hit ultras with the single target damage and win the fight, sometimes terran will be unlucky, hit lings with the single target damage and lose the fight. i dont want a big tournament win be based on being lucky or unlucky but on skill!
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I wrote the following up for a different thread but it seems applicable here so heres what I want done to the widow mine
widow mine
-can no longer attack cloaked and burrowed units without detection
(reasoning: window mine being able to hit cloaked units is unneeded and make things too difficult for the opponent for no meaningful reason.)
-Attack range increased from 5 to 6.
Activate mine delay reduced from 3 seconds to 2
Delay from when mine is triggered to when the pay load hits increased by 1 second.
(reasoning: Window mine are not that effective vs protoss and one of the reasons is stalker/immortal with their 6 range can safely take them out.
So the changes to the attack range and burrow time of the mine help alleviate this problem where as the increased time form mine being trigger to mine hitting helps balance this out and promote micro at the same time)
-Delay from when mine is triggered to when the pay load hits increased by 1 second on top of what I already suggested when targeting air units.
(reasoning: It is unreasonable for air units to always have slow detectors lagging behind them just because of the threat that they could fly over a mine field at any time.
For example even if you always paired a flock of mutalisks with an overseer the overseer is much slower then the mutalisks even if it has the speed upgrade, meaning the threat of widow mines possibly being anywhere slows down the mutalisk flock to only move at the speed of an overseer, therefore negating the point of the mutalisk's high speed.
So making the delay between trigger and hit being much slower for air units allows your more speedy air units to safely fly around assuming you have the awareness and micro skills needed to pull back or focus fire the second you trigger the mine.)
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This won't completely solve the problem, but it might help:
Banshee moves into range of WM. WM fires. If the player reacts fast enough, and moves the banshee backwards right before the WM hits, the fire will either miss (and the banshee takes no damage) or it will hit but deal reduced damage.
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Making a 2 supply mine that hits air units was a mistake from the beginning. Mines should be cheap board control against ground units. They should not hard-counter everything flying, much less be most effective against flying units (which cost gas and stack up).
Ideally the mine would be free (or very cheap) on supply, and not hit air units. Its damage can be adjusted, but that part really is irrelevant.
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I don't think the OP realizes one of the main goals of the mine is to make mech TvP and mech in general more viable. How does it do this?
It covers a lot of the bases that wings of liberty mech could not cover. Void rays, banshees, lots of early all-ins - the mine allows you to pour your vespene gas resources into factories now instead of needing a starport, a thor, missile turrets, marines, etc.
This is basically the one and only thing the mine does very well. Starport + viking = 225 vespene gas solely to be safe against void ray all-ins if you were "opening mech" in wings of liberty. Or you'd need an armory and a thor which is 300 vespene gas, and 6 more supply, as well as not having units.
Same deal with TvT and TvZ. A single banshee often times in wings of liberty forces you to make a starport, it forces a viking/raven, now that 300 vespene gas or more can go towards 2-3 factories, which is a good step to make mech more viable.
None of your suggestions are good because you don't understand the above concept. If the mine were not able to deal with banshee or void rays appropriately, mech would basically be the same as wings of liberty and you would need the starport, viking, ebay, missile turret, etc. etc. the list goes on.
I agree with you and i'm sure 99% of Terrans that have played beta extensively at masters and above will agree the mine is absolutely trash lategame, and overall is very inefficient.
I also agree that the single target damage is very, very bad and it should actually deal more splash but that will not happen because the community is too vocal on the mine being OP at this very moment even though a lot of people have no clue what they're talking about, or play at too low of a level to understand how often the mine becomes "useless."
But yeah, your suggestion is very bad for allowing more mech viability in HOTS, it would be a step backwards towards wings of liberty where you get punished for even attempting multiple factories.
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Avilo, I agree that the factory is missing certain things that it needs to have, such as being able to defend against void ray all-ins, etc. etc. However it is weird to have a mine serve this purpose. It would be simpler, more effective, and a more elegant solution to have an anti-air unit in addition to the mine. The mine has stepped into the role of being factory anti-air, which it performs only because there is nothing better.
Even if the mine did not attack air, it would still be useful for holding all-ins using ground units. And if it cost less supply you could have other units without your board control assets eating into your actual mech army.
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It is a strongly good idea for WM to hit air, until such a fast-moving pain like muta exists. Teran has no good AA in its arsenal except holy-slow Thor, neither has protos (that's another story).
Now, with WM, it's way more complicated for Z fly between bases (3-4) and shut down the economy expanding behind that. I insist that WM should hit air, unless some good answer to muta will be presented.
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On December 03 2012 00:33 Gyro_SC2 wrote:... I don't see your point ? WM is good because you don't need to build marine to be deffensif agains those harass and it's more easy to do a factory strategy .... In conclusion: this is a QQ thread The WM is a good deffensif unit and help for the mech transition.
"defensif"
tryhard obvious troll is tryhard. Seriously, I wish mods would start punishing people like this. He is blatantly just trying to bait angry replies.
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On December 03 2012 00:33 Gyro_SC2 wrote:... I don't see your point ? WM is good because you don't need to build marine to be deffensif agains those harass and it's more easy to do a factory strategy .... In conclusion: this is a QQ thread The WM is a good deffensif unit and help for the mech transition.
"defensif"
tryhard obvious troll is obvious. Seriously, I wish mods would start punishing people like this. He is blatantly just trying to bait angry replies.
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On December 03 2012 07:20 avilo wrote:
I don't think the OP realizes one of the main goals of the mine is to make mech TvP and mech in general more viable. How does it do this?
It covers a lot of the bases that wings of liberty mech could not cover. Void rays, banshees, lots of early all-ins - the mine allows you to pour your vespene gas resources into factories now instead of needing a starport, a thor, missile turrets, marines, etc.
This is basically the one and only thing the mine does very well. Starport + viking = 225 vespene gas solely to be safe against void ray all-ins if you were "opening mech" in wings of liberty. Or you'd need an armory and a thor which is 300 vespene gas, and 6 more supply, as well as not having units.
Same deal with TvT and TvZ. A single banshee often times in wings of liberty forces you to make a starport, it forces a viking/raven, now that 300 vespene gas or more can go towards 2-3 factories, which is a good step to make mech more viable.
None of your suggestions are good because you don't understand the above concept. If the mine were not able to deal with banshee or void rays appropriately, mech would basically be the same as wings of liberty and you would need the starport, viking, ebay, missile turret, etc. etc. the list goes on.
I agree with you and i'm sure 99% of Terrans that have played beta extensively at masters and above will agree the mine is absolutely trash lategame, and overall is very inefficient.
I also agree that the single target damage is very, very bad and it should actually deal more splash but that will not happen because the community is too vocal on the mine being OP at this very moment even though a lot of people have no clue what they're talking about, or play at too low of a level to understand how often the mine becomes "useless."
But yeah, your suggestion is very bad for allowing more mech viability in HOTS, it would be a step backwards towards wings of liberty where you get punished for even attempting multiple factories.
It being designed to help open mech smoother is nice but even that role isn't filled in an elegant way..
In TvZ you could already open mech easily and there were nice interesting moves from both sides early on as zerg could occasionally do roach pressure etc. Widow mines make roach aggression just laughable, even more so they make muta's too bad.. Result widow mine strenghtens an early game that needed no boost in this matchup making it more stale by taking away interesting zerg options
In TvP you still don't want to open mech. Mines are too unreliable to hold off any attack because stalkers/voids/immortals outrange them and the MsC is easy mobile detection early on. Even against stuff like a 4 gate or 6 gate I doubt the usefulness of a widow mine because they tend to kill just 1 zealot which is often the one being targeted already.. Result that widow mine does basically nothing here except being a gimmick, you can't rely on it for defenses at all.
In TvT the whole starport becomes less of a neccesity and much less useful as well. This along with the other mech buffs definately forces the matchup more towards mech, probably making it a must like it was for some time in the WoL era before the hellion nerf. I don't think this is good for the fun of the matchup though, i always liked to see the opening variety of TvT with banshee's, drops, FE's etc. With widow mine I feel the early plays become too passive or even worse, too gimmicky. Widow mine defense against drops or units like banshee is so harsh, either the banshee get's instantly killed or it avoids the mine and can rack up a lot of kills if you skipped a good marine count.
All in all it's a trash unit imo; way too good against zerg, removing action in TvT and practically useless against protoss.
It just doesn't work well what it was intended for, it's not a unit that can zone out area's, buy time or create cool positional play because it takes so much supply. Instead it's gimmick which power lies mostly in the earlygame and then quickly fades off.
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There too many flaws with the mine but I find it being a fun unit to mess around with. I personally given up on the possibility of mech. I dont forsee it ever being viable as much as it saddens me. It is just something I have to accept and believe everyone should accept atm because there are just too many thing in this game that counters it
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Any removal of single target damage just means you've brought back the shredder. Which gives even worse domination of mineral lines. So no.
You can absolutely have mech in SC2. It just is something the game has to be built around, instead of trying to duct tape it on later.
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On December 03 2012 07:20 avilo wrote:
I don't think the OP realizes one of the main goals of the mine is to make mech TvP and mech in general more viable. How does it do this?
It covers a lot of the bases that wings of liberty mech could not cover. Void rays, banshees, lots of early all-ins - the mine allows you to pour your vespene gas resources into factories now instead of needing a starport, a thor, missile turrets, marines, etc.
This is basically the one and only thing the mine does very well. Starport + viking = 225 vespene gas solely to be safe against void ray all-ins if you were "opening mech" in wings of liberty. Or you'd need an armory and a thor which is 300 vespene gas, and 6 more supply, as well as not having units.
Same deal with TvT and TvZ. A single banshee often times in wings of liberty forces you to make a starport, it forces a viking/raven, now that 300 vespene gas or more can go towards 2-3 factories, which is a good step to make mech more viable.
None of your suggestions are good because you don't understand the above concept. If the mine were not able to deal with banshee or void rays appropriately, mech would basically be the same as wings of liberty and you would need the starport, viking, ebay, missile turret, etc. etc. the list goes on.
I agree with you and i'm sure 99% of Terrans that have played beta extensively at masters and above will agree the mine is absolutely trash lategame, and overall is very inefficient.
I also agree that the single target damage is very, very bad and it should actually deal more splash but that will not happen because the community is too vocal on the mine being OP at this very moment even though a lot of people have no clue what they're talking about, or play at too low of a level to understand how often the mine becomes "useless."
But yeah, your suggestion is very bad for allowing more mech viability in HOTS, it would be a step backwards towards wings of liberty where you get punished for even attempting multiple factories.
i think you misunderstood the OP. its option 1 and option 2. so EITHER option1: remove air/cloak while making it less supply/higher splash OR option 2: remove single target damage while less supply/higher splash. you actually say it shouldnt single target damage but more splash damage and less supply. exactly what i am suggesting in the OP. i never said it should hit ground only. option 2 (which is the more realistic one anyway) suggests to remove single target damage and increase splash damage while lowering supply.
so yeah you wouldnt be able to oneshot a banshee but thats stupid anyway. the opponent who goes banshee invests 300 gas if he goes vor starport and 2 banshees. with cloak its 500 gas. its retarded that the opponent is able to counter that with 2x25 gas mines. like really retarded. its not like you cant go mech if you have to make say 8 mines = 200 gas to counter his 300 or 500 gas banshees.
so if the mine would only do say 60 splash and 1 supply but no single target damage you would need 3 mines = 75 gas to counter the banshee. in reality 2 mines + 1 turret will be more than enough per base so you will still be able to trade superefficiently if your opponent goes banshee. mech would still be incredibly viable vs air oppenings since you would still trade a lot better with a mine + turret combination than your opponent who invest a lot in his tech but it would at least keep banshee, muta and dropplay in the game.
On December 03 2012 17:27 GoldenH wrote:
Any removal of single target damage just means you've brought back the shredder. Which gives even worse domination of mineral lines. So no.
You can absolutely have mech in SC2. It just is something the game has to be built around, instead of trying to duct tape it on later.
a shredder that still hits air and cloaked units and shoots only every 40 seconds...so no its completely different.
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On December 03 2012 07:27 ledarsi wrote:
Avilo, I agree that the factory is missing certain things that it needs to have, such as being able to defend against void ray all-ins, etc. etc. However it is weird to have a mine serve this purpose. It would be simpler, more effective, and a more elegant solution to have an anti-air unit in addition to the mine. The mine has stepped into the role of being factory anti-air, which it performs only because there is nothing better.
Even if the mine did not attack air, it would still be useful for holding all-ins using ground units. And if it cost less supply you could have other units without your board control assets eating into your actual mech army.
Yeh, Terran does need another unit, and they do need a solid anti-air mech unit. But blizzard thinks it's fine as is. The mine and battle hellion are not enough, but they are not going to admit it. At this point Terran is so f$@%ed they should just add in the warhound aka marauder#2.
When HOTS beta started, everyone, including myself, that made posts about how the warhound was bad and was a mech marauder were absolutely correct. We made these posts and feedback to blizzard under the assumption that they would be competent enough to replace it with something that added more depth to the game for Terran. We thought that this design team would live up to it's predecessor that designed brood war.
Unfortunately, our assumptions were terribly wrong. Terran ends up with nothing.
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very well thought out op!
i pretty mutch agree and i really love your idea of removing single target.
I am not sure if removing AA from the WM would be a good or bad idea because it would sevearly limit its uses for Terran (Blizz wants the WM to be usefull)
another idea i had was to give it like a 2 second delay before it shoots the missle in wich you can snipe the WM (if you have enough firepower) or maby make the missle dodgable (going together with removing single target)
Anyway i feel that Blizzard knows the issue of the WM as it is right now so i´m excited for their ideas!
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since the OP seems to be a bit confusing:
it is EITHER option 1 (remove air and cloak, buff splash and supply) OR option 2 (remove single target, buff splash and supply). so option 2 STILL hits air and cloak but with splash only, so no more oneshotting!
since single target damage is completely luckbased in big fights (it hits expensive or cheap units completely luckbased) i think option 2 is way better and keeps the mine more viable and interesting.
updated the OP. think it is clear now ;-)
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very good thread.
The widow mine does overcomplicate the game...and so far buffing everything to compensate for how strong one unit is, is just poor design.
I wasn't able to pinpoint exactly what was wrong with the widow mine( blizzard hasn't either apparently)
but I think you hit the nail right on the head.
great write up!
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On December 03 2012 19:22 gCgCrypto wrote:
very well thought out op!
i pretty mutch agree and i really love your idea of removing single target.
I am not sure if removing AA from the WM would be a good or bad idea because it would sevearly limit its uses for Terran (Blizz wants the WM to be usefull)
another idea i had was to give it like a 2 second delay before it shoots the missle in wich you can snipe the WM (if you have enough firepower) or maby make the missle dodgable (going together with removing single target)
Anyway i feel that Blizzard knows the issue of the WM as it is right now so i´m excited for their ideas!
I 100% agree with the concept but I think it misses the core problem, the widow mine being powerful in early game (or simply frustrating to deal with) and not so useful the longer the game goes on - since a bigger army can just kill the WM in those 2 seconds.
They can probably tweak the upgrades a bit, to make it one-shot some units at 0/0 and more units with weapon upgrades 1/2/3, or just strenghten the splash damage.
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On December 03 2012 19:49 Big G wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2012 19:22 gCgCrypto wrote:
very well thought out op!
i pretty mutch agree and i really love your idea of removing single target.
I am not sure if removing AA from the WM would be a good or bad idea because it would sevearly limit its uses for Terran (Blizz wants the WM to be usefull)
another idea i had was to give it like a 2 second delay before it shoots the missle in wich you can snipe the WM (if you have enough firepower) or maby make the missle dodgable (going together with removing single target)
Anyway i feel that Blizzard knows the issue of the WM as it is right now so i´m excited for their ideas!
I 100% agree with the concept but I think it misses the core problem, the widow mine being powerful in early game (or simply frustrating to deal with) and not so useful the longer the game goes on - since a bigger army can just kill the WM in those 2 seconds. They can probably tweak the upgrades a bit, to make it one-shot some units at 0/0 and more units with weapon upgrades 1/2/3, or just strenghten the splash damage.
You are right. i didnt really think about the lategame. however for me the most important role of the WM is to defend outer bases.
The biggest problem of WoL is that its a 3 base turtlefeast because of lack of stand alone defenses (Planetary fortresses do a good job but protoss is entierly lacking good base defense) and this cuts into the map making a lot.
I have high hopes for the WM but i still see nothing to fix this for protoss ...
Only way would be to change the colossus (at least only way i see)
but i´m getting way off topic here ^^
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On December 03 2012 19:49 Big G wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2012 19:22 gCgCrypto wrote:
very well thought out op!
i pretty mutch agree and i really love your idea of removing single target.
I am not sure if removing AA from the WM would be a good or bad idea because it would sevearly limit its uses for Terran (Blizz wants the WM to be usefull)
another idea i had was to give it like a 2 second delay before it shoots the missle in wich you can snipe the WM (if you have enough firepower) or maby make the missle dodgable (going together with removing single target)
Anyway i feel that Blizzard knows the issue of the WM as it is right now so i´m excited for their ideas!
I 100% agree with the concept but I think it misses the core problem, the widow mine being powerful in early game (or simply frustrating to deal with) and not so useful the longer the game goes on - since a bigger army can just kill the WM in those 2 seconds. They can probably tweak the upgrades a bit, to make it one-shot some units at 0/0 and more units with weapon upgrades 1/2/3, or just strenghten the splash damage.
yeah thats why i suggested to make them less supply so there would be 10-20 mines and even a big army needs some time to kill that which allows your own army to reposition. especially with a range upgrade it would take a big army very long to take the minefield out since only tempest, colossus, tanks, SHs, BLs would be able to kill the mines without getting damaged.
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EPT
