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United States4883 Posts
Hi, I'm a diamond-level protoss player in WoL (and HotS too, but I don't think that matters). I've been just playing random in HotS, particularly playing around with terran mech. Probably one of my favourite units that I find most interesting so far are widow mines. I've had success ranging from total failure to huge success with these, but I just can't seem to find the perfect roles for them yet.
The main use I've found for them is fast expanding, then littering the area around my base with widow mines while getting another 1-2 CCs and starting double ups.
Another use I've discovered is placing them in places you expect drops or flying harassment. They also work well on cliff edges to stop things like reapers or sieging up a cliff wall.
They SEEM to work pretty well if just placed in groups of 2-3 on the map in common traffic spots, but I can't really confirm if I'm actually having success with this.
They also work really well to block expansions (like a burrowed zergling). It generally forces a tentative sacrificial unit plus a scan or observer/overseer to be near.
My main questions are: How have these things been working for you? I haven't used them offensively, they seem kind of clunky for aggression; are there additional uses that work well for you? Do the mines work better clumped or spread out? Certain sim cities that help with widow mine defense? Should they be placed like tanks or more concentrated in chokes? etc etc
I'd love to hear what everyone's experience with this unit is!
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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
Sensor Tower + Widow Mine is great if you know someone is going to be drop heavy
Widow Mines are great for taking your third early in TvZ. You can even do the 2 fact BFH build, get it scouted, and not be completely fucked by Roaches.
IMO, you don't have to make 4 Thors right away just to be safe from Mutas now.
In PvZ, they are basically a must in order to be safe with only 1/2 rax marine production. I think, unless you want to do 2 base Ghosts, you pretty much have to have 6+ with your army when you take your third. They help a lot with Immortals, but it's tricky to get them to hit them. I've been trying to keep them deactivated, and then I activate them once their front line of Zealots is killed. Sometimes it works perfectly and sometimes their units will automatically target them down on a-move, or they will have a lot of Zealots so that I can't really afford to wait until they are all dead, and the Widow Mines hit them instead.
Does anyone know, can you target fire with Widow Mines?
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
For me personally it's depended entirely on the map.
TvT I use them also depending what style I'm playing against, but on a map like daybreak I usually make about 10 mines lategame (yes, I'm not lying, I understand the supply cost) and keep about 3 infront of my tank lines (you can use tank lines more against bio now thanks to the mine), close enough that tanks fire at anything trying to kill them, but far enough away to deter them running straight in at my tanks. Against mech I usually do a similar sort of thing, but if I can't have a really good position I'll put a big group of mines far away from my tanks defending the back route in to my bases to stop hellion runbys.
Early game I'll keep one at each mineral line to deter banshees, but later on I rely entirely on turrets still for anti air as they're more reliable and are not dead supply in your base.
TvZ I get a ton of mines. Well I say a ton, but I like getting around 15-20 late game as I've found them incredibly useful for using large amounts of mines and one or two tanks for sectioning off entire pathways through the map against a mass roach/infestor style with ultras later on. Against Broodlords they can be very useful at getting cheeky kills on corrupters if you use your vikings to fly back over your mines, kind of like mutas and baneling bombs and they're great to have up to 5 in the early game just to defend against any form of ling pressure. If mutas are coming early game I'll do the same as TvT but with about 2-3 mines at each base with turret support until late game I move them and use turrets.
The main thing to do with your minefields is you HAVE to keep a viking ot turret with range nearby to snipe overseers. If they get hydras (more zergs are doing this to me now) you will lose them if you don't snipe the overseer.
TvP - I've been trying to use them in TvP, but to be honest I've still not worked out how the hell to use them. They seem to barely do anything to protoss units, I usually forgo them all together and just try and deal with it with just tank/hellbat/hellion/viking/ghost late game, early game I've found them useful for helping against early all ins/blink attacks at least.
I was Diamond in WoL and so far I've been sticking to unranked games, but I've been matched up with mainly diamond players.
EDIT:
One major thing I'd like to add about the mine, is since they can move around, it's very, very useful to move them after they've killed some units. Say you defend against a ling runby with them, pick them up and move them elsewhere since anyone with a brain won't run over that spot again.
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On November 25 2012 23:35 SC2John wrote:I've had success ranging from total failure to huge success with these,
Nailed it right here.
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United Kingdom1381 Posts
In the TvP match up, you could have an unburrowed widow mine with your bio ball and then burrow it whenever you spot an observer to save wasting scans.
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I've been trying to deny creep with them. Widow mine + hellion. Queens come to kill hellions --> boom. I doesn't really work that well and I'm not sure if it's even worth it. But it's a thought.
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Zerg cannot roach pressure as a response to hellion fast expand anymore. One widow mind and wall shuts it down completely.
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United States4883 Posts
On November 26 2012 01:05 ZjiublingZ wrote:
Sensor Tower + Widow Mine is great if you know someone is going to be drop heavy
Widow Mines are great for taking your third early in TvZ. You can even do the 2 fact BFH build, get it scouted, and not be completely fucked by Roaches.
IMO, you don't have to make 4 Thors right away just to be safe from Mutas now.
In PvZ, they are basically a must in order to be safe with only 1/2 rax marine production. I think, unless you want to do 2 base Ghosts, you pretty much have to have 6+ with your army when you take your third. They help a lot with Immortals, but it's tricky to get them to hit them. I've been trying to keep them deactivated, and then I activate them once their front line of Zealots is killed. Sometimes it works perfectly and sometimes their units will automatically target them down on a-move, or they will have a lot of Zealots so that I can't really afford to wait until they are all dead, and the Widow Mines hit them instead.
Does anyone know, can you target fire with Widow Mines?
No, you cannot target; this was discussed in the other widow mine thread. It's a little frustrating because it presents a bit of a random factor if units run over it or you activate it under a big army. The other thing that's been bothering me is the delay on the rockets. While I understand that this is for the purpose of allowing counter-micro against the mines, it again gives a sense of randomness because certain units like stimmed marines/nitro pack reapers/speedlings/charglots can actually just run over the mine without taking damage in a lot of cases.
I agree with your post: I think in a lot of ways, widow mines just open terran to play way greedier. I've had a ton of success with 3- or 4-CC builds, using widow mines to survive any kind of early pressure.
On November 26 2012 02:00 Qikz wrote:
For me personally it's depended entirely on the map.
TvT I use them also depending what style I'm playing against, but on a map like daybreak I usually make about 10 mines lategame (yes, I'm not lying, I understand the supply cost) and keep about 3 infront of my tank lines (you can use tank lines more against bio now thanks to the mine), close enough that tanks fire at anything trying to kill them, but far enough away to deter them running straight in at my tanks. Against mech I usually do a similar sort of thing, but if I can't have a really good position I'll put a big group of mines far away from my tanks defending the back route in to my bases to stop hellion runbys.
Early game I'll keep one at each mineral line to deter banshees, but later on I rely entirely on turrets still for anti air as they're more reliable and are not dead supply in your base.
TvZ I get a ton of mines. Well I say a ton, but I like getting around 15-20 late game as I've found them incredibly useful for using large amounts of mines and one or two tanks for sectioning off entire pathways through the map against a mass roach/infestor style with ultras later on. Against Broodlords they can be very useful at getting cheeky kills on corrupters if you use your vikings to fly back over your mines, kind of like mutas and baneling bombs and they're great to have up to 5 in the early game just to defend against any form of ling pressure. If mutas are coming early game I'll do the same as TvT but with about 2-3 mines at each base with turret support until late game I move them and use turrets.
The main thing to do with your minefields is you HAVE to keep a viking ot turret with range nearby to snipe overseers. If they get hydras (more zergs are doing this to me now) you will lose them if you don't snipe the overseer.
TvP - I've been trying to use them in TvP, but to be honest I've still not worked out how the hell to use them. They seem to barely do anything to protoss units, I usually forgo them all together and just try and deal with it with just tank/hellbat/hellion/viking/ghost late game, early game I've found them useful for helping against early all ins/blink attacks at least.
TvT: I've been thinking this is a good way to pair the widow mine, creating little groups of tanks and widow mines that control space better. I haven't played around with it a lot, but I think a 4-5 tank/2-3 mine defense will cover an area from anything but a really dedicated attack.
TvZ: This is interesting. I stopped making mines in lategame TvZ, thinking that my supply would be better spent into thors and flooding with battlehellions. However, I was still having problems with mass zergling runbys and roach drop shenanigans, etc. I have been playing around with baiting corruptors into widow mines/thor fire, and it's incredible at how quickly they fall...it's like using a seeker missile. I think there's still a lot of innovation I could do in this matchup, but for a long time, I've been thinking that my supply would be better spent in the lategame.
TvP: This...is a really weird matchup for mines. I think they work really well if you can do some kind of pre-colossus attack timing (maybe the marine/hellion/medivac 10:00 attack with 2-4 mines for support). Otherwise, they only really work for denying early pressure and staying fairly safe while you get your tank count up. Lategame, they seem almost useless, as they die to a-move colossus armies, aren't really droppable against cannons, and don't kill hardly anything except zealots. I haven't really tried using them in the lategame too much, but I'm fairly certain there are better ways to spend supply in this matchup.
On November 26 2012 03:50 iHirO wrote:
In the TvP match up, you could have an unburrowed widow mine with your bio ball and then burrow it whenever you spot an observer to save wasting scans.
Cool idea. You just have to make sure your marines don't take splash from the widow mine, though.
On November 26 2012 04:04 d00p wrote:
I've been trying to deny creep with them. Widow mine + hellion. Queens come to kill hellions --> boom. I doesn't really work that well and I'm not sure if it's even worth it. But it's a thought.
I haven't had a lot of success with this...zergs are getting out early roaches again, and the early roaches completely shut down hellion harass, even with a mine or two. However, I think this is perfectly viable as long as you have the APM and you're expanding aggressively behind it.
On November 26 2012 03:22 Crawdad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2012 23:35 SC2John wrote:I've had success ranging from total failure to huge success with these, Nailed it right here.
Thank you, lol.
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United States4883 Posts
Any other thoughts or ideas?
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Verg good post. Glad to see that not everyone in these strategy forums are idiots. Yes I have found that you can do triple CC builds and can be safe against most all ins just placing widow mines in key attack paths.
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On November 27 2012 07:40 SC2John wrote:
Any other thoughts or ideas?
You didn't mention this in your post but widow mine drops are VERY effective. If a zerg isn't paying attention, widow mine drops can clear out entire mineral lines in seconds.
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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On November 27 2012 08:17 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:You didn't mention this in your post but widow mine drops are VERY effective. If a zerg isn't paying attention, widow mine drops can clear out entire mineral lines in seconds.
You gotta be careful doing this though as a Mech player. Once you start trying to trade Gas for Drones, you really need to do damage to make it worth it. Especially when you start comparing how much damage you could have done with the same drop, but with Hellions.
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United States4883 Posts
On November 27 2012 08:17 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:You didn't mention this in your post but widow mine drops are VERY effective. If a zerg isn't paying attention, widow mine drops can clear out entire mineral lines in seconds.
I've tried this with fairly limited success; most players spot the dropship coming in way too early and pull workers in time. I suppose I can try pairing this with a frontal assault or a drop somewhere else to distract my opponent, but it seems so much more APM and time consuming to drop 2 mines and burrow them than to do something like a baneling drop. I'll try it though.
I've been thinking of Liquid_Sea's super aggro mech TvP with hellion/banshee, and perhaps I could add something like this to keep the protoss all the way back defending while I get my upgrades and infrastructure up. The biggest problem I'm finding with mech in TvP is that protoss can just reach an immortal/colossus/archon/chargelot ball of doom much faster than I can achieve a solid mech army. Maybe using widow mines, not as positional tools, but rather as really aggressive space control tools might work to make mech TvP possible.
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Mines defensive unit? Such a waste  I am using mines very offensively with timing pushes on 1 base, very fun :DD.
vsZ: with fast gaz, 2 factory (one reactor) and 4 hellions with 2 mines push (with reenforcement if no roach). Mines one shot queens and rape zerglings, very effective if there is no more than 1 spine.
vsP: 1 rax lab +1 factory (better with proxy one) and 2marines+marauder with concusive shield and mines push. Mine one shot zelot/stalker. Vulnerable to mothership core runby :D
2rax (one reactor one tech lab)+factory is fine too
vsT: Most funny one, reaper+mines push, with gaz befor rax. Micro intensif but u can mess a lot with your opponent mind, thx to the vison of reaper.
Most of the time, i dont commit to much a take an expo. For my part, mines are pretty useless late game, expect for taking drops, but with the small radius, i think turret is better. Excuse my poor english, i am french.
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It's a shame I've yet to see this, but you can use widow mines to extend vision of siege tanks.
The trick is to place TWO widow mines between the most likely line of attack.
See example below:
_________WM
ST
ST _______________Roaches
_________WM
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They work perfectly to stop warp prisms, drop play shenanigans which is critical for players that like to mech or against those players that like to be aggressive. Maybe placing a widow mine in between two turrets could bait them into thinking that theres a blind spot in the turret ring.. Done this several times and works like a charm.
Also I find using widow mines planted near the mineral line of the 3rd/4th better than blocking the expansion outright. This way you can potentially get a ton of kills when they transfer their workers.
One more usage I find rather good is, placing them around the map, not near xel naga towers but near the line of sight blockers, areas where you wouldn't expect these. They get so many kills sometimes because the opponent dont expect them planted down, often losing handful of units just from being careless.
Some other neat tricks are baiting them into your mines with your units. E.g when going for hellions drops you take a few mines with you so they can roam around the enemy main and bait them into mines (sort of a safe zone?).
But as usual, mines lose effectiveness real quick mid/late game. However when things get out of hand in the late game and games that are very hectic (players forget to scout ahead sometimes, or rebuild their detectors), rebuilding mines can take advantage of this e.g. zerg forgetting to build overseers after a few engagements so they fly over a mine field etc.
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Widow mines are terrible units actually, They are being built in most streams and games just like reapers are: never built or a couple early game then thats it.
They need another serious round of buffs and Dustin browder has hinted at that in his recent interview.
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On November 26 2012 03:22 Crawdad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2012 23:35 SC2John wrote:I've had success ranging from total failure to huge success with these, Nailed it right here.
I agree. The mine is sucks against a player with a brain who knows how to deal with it. And against Late Game runby´s it´s pretty useless too because 15-25 supply of marines/tanks would do the same job even better.
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Vs protoss
1: When you play bio and the protoss ends upp with chargelots arcon and templars. Get a reactor on your factory and burrow and kite into them with bio.
2: Drop 1 6 marines and 1 widow mines instead of 8 marines. He will probably not notice it and run back the probes to killed by it.
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Currently I build one in my TvP whilst going Cloakshee expand so I don't die to a Mothership Core.
Haven't tried it yet in TvZ or TvT.
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On November 26 2012 04:37 GenesisX wrote:
Zerg cannot roach pressure as a response to hellion fast expand anymore. One widow mind and wall shuts it down completely.
It depends how the terran places his mines.
I usually spread them out to watch tower and one on my natural's ramp. just one mine doesn't really do all that much damage imo
but the zerg cannot find a sweet spot to snipe off anything as easily. So i guess in a way it does shut down roach pressure
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I've found the mines pretty useful against early game toss. If you use reapers to pop in their base and harass and exit with widow mines on the low ground, it's very good at taking away those crucial first few units while getting a probe or 2.
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United States4883 Posts
On November 27 2012 15:29 GrassEater wrote:
Vs protoss
1: When you play bio and the protoss ends upp with chargelots arcon and templars. Get a reactor on your factory and burrow and kite into them with bio.
2: Drop 1 6 marines and 1 widow mines instead of 8 marines. He will probably not notice it and run back the probes to killed by it.
I really don't mean to be a jerk, but I find both of these ideas fairly bad. I will explain why: 1. When you play bio and try to kite over mines, you're going to take friendly splash, which is something a bio ball CANT take. In addition, it'll probably splash on your medivacs, which is also bad. There's no reason to add widow mines to kill zealots when 40 marines melts them instantly anyway. There might be some uses in the later parts of the game with like 30 zealot warpins after a big engagement, but even then, I see 4-6 BFH instead of widow mines being better (because, once again, no splash).
2. You should never rely a strategy or tactic on "hopefully my opponent won't notice". DT rushes and things of that nature are terrible if they are solely for the purpose of hoping your opponent is bad. Whenever you look at a tactic or strategy, you want it to force your opponent to do something. For instance, if you burrow 2 mines on the far side of his mineral line and then drop on the other, you force your opponent to have to pull probes TOWARDS the marines. That being said, there might be some utility in trying something like that.
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I find it helps greatly when you go siege tank heavy, which is like the best mech unit so that I guess quick units can't pick tanks off as easily (which is a problem in WoL)
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Diamond level random player here; i always bring widow mines + bio for a timing push against zerg and toss (for TvT it always delays my opponent taking his third or making drops)
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United States4883 Posts
On December 02 2012 08:00 banatboy wrote:
Diamond level random player here; i always bring widow mines + bio for a timing push against zerg and toss (for TvT it always delays my opponent taking his third or making drops)
Nice to hear some comments about bio. Quite honestly, I've ONLY been playing mech in HotS, partly because it's fun and I just want to, but also because I think that's what needs the most research at the moment.
I've seen quite a few marine/widow mine pushes, although more when I play as zerg, as they tend to be really good at zoning out where zerglings can and can't go. In many ways, it seems much stronger than seige tanks in the midgame. I think terrans might be able to get away with a mostly tankless marine/mine style into thors/viking. Have you had any significant success in the lategame paired with bio?
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so i have had about the same success rate as yourself. i will say i have great success with TvT. I usually open up proxy rax and start reaper production. I use the widow mines to take an early 3rd and to box in the terran, i find the proxy reaper denies his gas so tanks dont go up soon enough for me to worry about getting my incoming bio force demilished. i burrow them on ramps, deny expos likeburrowed zerglings, and put them outside of his base where his drops might be leaving from. i completely own the TvT game with that. On the otherhand TvZ is pretty hit or miss and TvP is UTTER failure. observers rock my world.
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@SC2John: Nah man. Late game goes sideways if your terran opponent goes all mech (tank heavy) with raven support at which point my widow mines are completely useless. TvZ and TvP is a different matter on the other hand :D
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Playing GM and Master Terrans in HOTS. The Widow Mine seems best used for early Widow Mine rushes and timings. Late game it isn't good. Also it is more effective in conjunction with Bio than used with Mech units.
Let me illustrate how to use them properly...
So here is my base at 4:04. This is my standard 1 Gate Expand PvT opening, I throw down a chrono on the Gate because I want my Stalker a bit quicker because my scout is going to arrive at this base last. My Zealot popped out a few seconds before and his chasing his scouting SCV...
![[image loading]](http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/6605/screenshot2012111911582.jpg)
But something sinister is happening. At the same time (4:04) a proxy Factory has finished outside my base, and is about to lift off and start making Widow Mines inside my base.
![[image loading]](http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/5690/screenshot2012111513291.jpg)
It lands in my base at 4:16, meaning the first mine can be out at 4:56. 4:21 is the soonest I can start the MSC opening 14 gas (2:02 Assimilator) after researching WG and building a Stalker. This is gas limited, so it is the soonest regardless of scouting. Getting the MSC before the Stalker wouldn't help, the MSC has the same range as the Widow Mine, so I need both to handle Widow Mines.
![[image loading]](http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/4818/screenshot2012111911565.jpg)
Now, 5:17 is the soonest a Robo can be started opening 14 gas (assuming you get WG, a Stalker and a MSC). This is also gas limited. And 6:42 is the time a chronoboosted Observer is done.
This means that from the first moment a Widow Mine can be out in my base to the time a Chronoboosted Observer is out is 1:46 seconds. The MSC alone can only cover 30 seconds of detection with it's ability. You might think that is enough time to kill off the three Widow Mines (the second finishes at 5:36, the third at 6:16) that will be built before the Observer is out. But you'd be wrong .Widow Mines have a lot of HP and are as fast as a Stalker, so they can just run away, then run back in when the MSC detection runs out.
Also he can camp my Robo with Widow Mines, and if he times it right then my first Observer will die immediately.
And at the same time the SCV that built the Factory is blocking my natural now with an Engineering bay. Might not think that is a big deal since I have a Stalker and Zealot out... except I need them to help fend of the Mines (particularly the Stalker, since the MSC has the same range as Widow Mines, meaning that even if it can see them it can't attack them without being able to be hit). And even if I did clear out the Engineering Bay, he could run down his first Mine and burrow it to block my expansion more. So my expansion will be greatly delayed.
![[image loading]](http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/4637/screenshot2012111911550.jpg)
Oh and 5:46 is the moment the Terran player can expand. And he can block my expansion with the Engineering Bay then a Widow Mine so it doesn't go down until 6:42 (assuming my Observer spawns in sight range of the Widow Mine (but not so close that the Widow Mine kills it) and the Widow Mine is killed immediately).
Or he could just throw a huge Marine/SCV all-in at me, I've spent all my gas trying to get detection so I don't have any Sentries and my Stalker count is limited and I've spent all the energy from the MSC on detection so I can't use Purify. Or he could just do a 1-1-1, my expansion is so delayed... pick your poison, this build is incredibly difficult to stop.
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exact same thing happened to me and i almost got dismayed with continuing the game after seeing that it would take (like a long time) for me to get MSC to envision those widow mines. Looks like this sort of cheese is prevalent on the ladder nowadays.
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Chasing around Widow Mines isn't fun, and it makes me not want to play HOTS. I hope they redesign it to be better for late game not be a cheese unit.
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I like facing 6 Pools, the 1/1/1... whatever kind of cheeses because there is actually a battle going on, and SC2 is a war game (and this is why I disliked WC3, it was less of a battle where you tried to kill stuff and more of a dance where you kept units from dying). Defending the Widow Mine rush is like playing whack-a-mole. It seems ridiculous to me.
And all this is besides the point. The Widow Mine wasn't designed to help Terran cheese early or enhance mid-game timings. But that is what it is best at in TvP. Late game, it isn't that effective.
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True, widow mines are useless in late game TvP but they can take out a whole battalion of lings in early-mid game TvZ :D
just my two cents
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I like how Terran has a whopping 2 general strategies, and no midgame strategies.
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United States4883 Posts
On December 02 2012 10:58 ImANinjaBich wrote:
so i have had about the same success rate as yourself. i will say i have great success with TvT. I usually open up proxy rax and start reaper production. I use the widow mines to take an early 3rd and to box in the terran, i find the proxy reaper denies his gas so tanks dont go up soon enough for me to worry about getting my incoming bio force demilished. i burrow them on ramps, deny expos likeburrowed zerglings, and put them outside of his base where his drops might be leaving from. i completely own the TvT game with that. On the otherhand TvZ is pretty hit or miss and TvP is UTTER failure. observers rock my world.
In TvT, the best response I've seen to this is the opponent just getting 2 marauders with concussive shells. It seems like a big investment, but it ironically seems to even out the tech with your widow mine/reaper rush. But yeah, I can see this being a HUGE problem for any terran fast expanding; it looks like TvT will be dominated by gas first builds into some form of 1-1-1 from here on in.
On December 02 2012 12:25 banatboy wrote:
@SC2John: Nah man. Late game goes sideways if your terran opponent goes all mech (tank heavy) with raven support at which point my widow mines are completely useless. TvZ and TvP is a different matter on the other hand :D
Elaborate. How do they work in conjunction with bio lategame against zerg or protoss?
On December 02 2012 13:20 BronzeKnee wrote:
Chasing around Widow Mines isn't fun, and it makes me not want to play HOTS. I hope they redesign it to be better for late game not be a cheese unit.
Dude, that looks awful. I've recently been saying that I think widow mine needs to have less front-loaded damage. It should really have something like 60-80 damage and a larger splash and perhaps a 25-30 second cooldown. This would still allow things like dropping in mineral lines and sniping most T1 units, but would allow players to not lose based on things like immortals or ultras being sniped. It would also cover flanks better and deal with zergling runbys, etc, a little less randomly.
On December 02 2012 18:45 aksfjh wrote:I like how Terran has a whopping 2 general strategies, and no midgame strategies.
Lol, kind of why I got bored with terran in WoL. There's really only bio + medivac builds, 1-1-1 builds, and some shaky mech builds. I think terran spends most of it's time trying to figure out what to DO with it's units, but I feel like there's not a huge variation in the composition of armies.
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On December 02 2012 12:50 BronzeKnee wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Playing GM and Master Terrans in HOTS. The Widow Mine seems best used for early Widow Mine rushes and timings. Late game it isn't good. Also it is more effective in conjunction with Bio than used with Mech units. Let me illustrate how to use them properly... So here is my base at 4:04. This is my standard 1 Gate Expand PvT opening, I throw down a chrono on the Gate because I want my Stalker a bit quicker because my scout is going to arrive at this base last. My Zealot popped out a few seconds before and his chasing his scouting SCV... But something sinister is happening. At the same time (4:04) a proxy Factory has finished outside my base, and is about to lift off and start making Widow Mines inside my base. It lands in my base at 4:16, meaning the first mine can be out at 4:56. 4:21 is the soonest I can start the MSC opening 14 gas (2:02 Assimilator) after researching WG and building a Stalker. This is gas limited, so it is the soonest regardless of scouting. Getting the MSC before the Stalker wouldn't help, the MSC has the same range as the Widow Mine, so I need both to handle Widow Mines. Now, 5:17 is the soonest a Robo can be started opening 14 gas (assuming you get WG, a Stalker and a MSC). This is also gas limited. And 6:42 is the time a chronoboosted Observer is done. This means that from the first moment a Widow Mine can be out in my base to the time a Chronoboosted Observer is out is 1:46 seconds. The MSC alone can only cover 30 seconds of detection with it's ability. You might think that is enough time to kill off the three Widow Mines (the second finishes at 5:36, the third at 6:16) that will be built before the Observer is out. But you'd be wrong .Widow Mines have a lot of HP and are as fast as a Stalker, so they can just run away, then run back in when the MSC detection runs out. Also he can camp my Robo with Widow Mines, and if he times it right then my first Observer will die immediately. And at the same time the SCV that built the Factory is blocking my natural now with an Engineering bay. Might not think that is a big deal since I have a Stalker and Zealot out... except I need them to help fend of the Mines (particularly the Stalker, since the MSC has the same range as Widow Mines, meaning that even if it can see them it can't attack them without being able to be hit). And even if I did clear out the Engineering Bay, he could run down his first Mine and burrow it to block my expansion more. So my expansion will be greatly delayed. Oh and 5:46 is the moment the Terran player can expand. And he can block my expansion with the Engineering Bay then a Widow Mine so it doesn't go down until 6:42 (assuming my Observer spawns in sight range of the Widow Mine (but not so close that the Widow Mine kills it) and the Widow Mine is killed immediately). Or he could just throw a huge Marine/SCV all-in at me, I've spent all my gas trying to get detection so I don't have any Sentries and my Stalker count is limited and I've spent all the energy from the MSC on detection so I can't use Purify. Or he could just do a 1-1-1, my expansion is so delayed... pick your poison, this build is incredibly difficult to stop.
I got the beta like 2 weeks ago, and this is what I have been doing every game since my placement matches. (Floating factory into base) Of course I've only gone from bronze to silver with it so far, but I haven't gotten much opportunity to play. I was wondering when it would stop working. I was guessing somewhere around gold. Good to hear it keeps working, and thanks for the GM timings! 
I usually bunker their natural though.
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United States4883 Posts
Just want to add a really good use I've been finding in all matchups: if you open with a 1-1-1 or some kind of factory-based play, it is pretty much always beneficial to send one mine to your opponent's 3rd base. This prevents any kind of fast 3rd base play from happening and causes your opponent to have to expend energy to get expansion up.
I've been doing this a lot and it allows me to easily get a 3rd base up faster than my opponent, assuming no immediate pressure is coming.
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The mine just has to be 1 supply and changed accordingly.
As it stands the widow mine is just an early game unit only which is fantastic against zerg, decent against terran and fairly bad against protoss.
Against zerg the mine is just completely broken at the moment, a mine + wall completely stops any early zerg aggression, you can only kill them with banelings but that requires 3.. They are also great at preventing the third and being safe against mutalisks, they are even decent in your mech push since they trade fine with roaches then.
Against terran it's pretty good at stopping banshee harass and other drops or just preventing them from bumrushing your tanks etc. They feel a bit like reapers though, good early game and useful if you have some left over but you don't actually want to be making them late because there are better answers then for what you need. In mech wars they have some use in keeping your tanks etc safe from banshees making air dominance less important.
Against P they plain suck imo, most times they trade just 1 for 1 with a zealot or stalker doing minimal splash. The stupid MsC makes them way too flimsy for defense. Especially since mech still sucks anyway they tend to be outclassed by bunkers, which are better for defense and are conveniently salvaged when you go on offense. Investing in widow mines when you go bio only makes your stim timings weaker. I feel i rather use my factory to make a reactor for fast medivac production then spend that time to make a widow mine. When medivacs pop terran has map control for a long time and protoss is turtling anyway so there seems little use for widow mines.
If they just removed detection from the MsC (which was the stupidest change ever) and gave it back to the oracle you would see them more, plus we might actually see DT in PvP once again..
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On December 02 2012 23:02 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2012 10:58 ImANinjaBich wrote:
so i have had about the same success rate as yourself. i will say i have great success with TvT. I usually open up proxy rax and start reaper production. I use the widow mines to take an early 3rd and to box in the terran, i find the proxy reaper denies his gas so tanks dont go up soon enough for me to worry about getting my incoming bio force demilished. i burrow them on ramps, deny expos likeburrowed zerglings, and put them outside of his base where his drops might be leaving from. i completely own the TvT game with that. On the otherhand TvZ is pretty hit or miss and TvP is UTTER failure. observers rock my world. In TvT, the best response I've seen to this is the opponent just getting 2 marauders with concussive shells. It seems like a big investment, but it ironically seems to even out the tech with your widow mine/reaper rush. But yeah, I can see this being a HUGE problem for any terran fast expanding; it looks like TvT will be dominated by gas first builds into some form of 1-1-1 from here on in. Show nested quote +On December 02 2012 12:25 banatboy wrote:
@SC2John: Nah man. Late game goes sideways if your terran opponent goes all mech (tank heavy) with raven support at which point my widow mines are completely useless. TvZ and TvP is a different matter on the other hand :D Elaborate. How do they work in conjunction with bio lategame against zerg or protoss? Show nested quote +On December 02 2012 13:20 BronzeKnee wrote:
Chasing around Widow Mines isn't fun, and it makes me not want to play HOTS. I hope they redesign it to be better for late game not be a cheese unit. Dude, that looks awful. I've recently been saying that I think widow mine needs to have less front-loaded damage. It should really have something like 60-80 damage and a larger splash and perhaps a 25-30 second cooldown. This would still allow things like dropping in mineral lines and sniping most T1 units, but would allow players to not lose based on things like immortals or ultras being sniped. It would also cover flanks better and deal with zergling runbys, etc, a little less randomly. Show nested quote +On December 02 2012 18:45 aksfjh wrote:I like how Terran has a whopping 2 general strategies, and no midgame strategies. Lol, kind of why I got bored with terran in WoL. There's really only bio + medivac builds, 1-1-1 builds, and some shaky mech builds. I think terran spends most of it's time trying to figure out what to DO with it's units, but I feel like there's not a huge variation in the composition of armies.
Late Game use for widow mines + Bio against Zerg or Protoss (1 scenario is you meet lings + roach + hydra + infestor on the field (make sure to hide your widow mines till he is in range; now there are2 things you can do at this point. 1 would be to place WM at the back of your forces or use WM to flank enemy forces - and if you force him to retreat; whatever forces he has left gets decimated.You'd need at least 8- 10 widow mines to make substantial damage (provided that enemy units are clumped together)
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Diamond zerg (wol) here, I'd like to add some of my experiences with the mine. Yesterday I played vs. a meching terran, who was slightly better than me. He used the mines very nicely and punished my aggressive expansion style with constant widow mine drops. I had to shut down the drops by placing spores and spines or by leaving behind overseers. Basically, mine drops are pretty good against super greedy zergs, who aren't defending their expansions properly. Mines can also be placed preemptively at expansion spots. (just like spider mines in bw or dts) As they take up supply, this obviously can't be done throughout the whole game, because it weakens you main army too much, if you spread mines all over the place.
He also used mines "broodwar-esque" on the battlefield. As others have already stated, mines are very suitable to expand safely, as the provide good space control and push back early zerg pressure handily. In the later stages of the game, they're also kinda viable, because they both can be used to slow push with a mech ball, and to defend expansions against runbys / backstabs / mutas. (IdrA had to deal with such plays on his stream yesterday.) They don't seem to be good in the super late stages of a game, though.
Overall, the widow mine seems to be a good addition, even though the fact that the little sucker can hit both ground and air, while dealing tons of splash damage, gives me headaches. It's not imba, but you certainly have to play very cautiously as zerg now. Maybe a little less splash damage would be a fair change.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On November 27 2012 08:31 ZjiublingZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2012 08:17 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:On November 27 2012 07:40 SC2John wrote:
Any other thoughts or ideas? You didn't mention this in your post but widow mine drops are VERY effective. If a zerg isn't paying attention, widow mine drops can clear out entire mineral lines in seconds. You gotta be careful doing this though as a Mech player. Once you start trying to trade Gas for Drones, you really need to do damage to make it worth it. Especially when you start comparing how much damage you could have done with the same drop, but with Hellions.
How about a 3 hellion drop with one widow mine? use the hellions at first then leave a widow mine burrowed for when they come to deal with the hellions?
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widow mines will attack even though u dont have vision, if the unit is in range its gonna trigger automaticly, i just realized it LOL thats so good vs overlords on some imba vision spots, u can deny their vision easy pretty early without getting viking or medivac, like in cloud kingdom
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Widow mine is broken in every aspect of the game.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/27/screenshot2012111911582.jpg/)
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![[image loading]](http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/194/screenshot2012111911565.jpg/)
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rotoss_Strategy
