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This OP will be brief, but I think the topic speaks for itself. I searched for a similar thread, but I haven`t found one of note.
Tournaments have yet to really diversify their map pools, and Kespa are introducing several oldschool SC2 maps to what end? What would be nice and possibly great for blizzard to monetize their game is the ability for factions within the community to implement their own global custom ladders.
I do think there should be a barrier to entry similar to STEAMS Greenlight function, but with custom tailored and maintained ladders pro teams could actually develop a public ladder to be used as their training tool.
Tournaments would not have to rely on external uploaders for finding the correct version of a map, and large community driven initiatives could reach the average player rather than the current trend where any reasonable initiative is inevitably buried by a poor custom map system and without a constant update of the thread inevitably some players will end up not finding out about it.
Just imagine being able to hit up a custom ladder tab and see stuff like Fastest map compilation ladder, or an alternative HOTS balance ladder with changes to units and even a ladder for "fewer resources per base." or a supposed "Pro mod" with neutral supply depo at the bottom of each ramp?
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I think before we get crazy, blizz need to work on making sure HotS has everything they said it would from the outset, and have it working with the new improved UI.
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Yeah, agreed. I think this would be a very nice addition, although pretty difficult to implement properly.
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Love the idea. As you mentioned, it would really help alternate maps stand out more and get dissociated from forum threads that die eventually.
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Great idea. Would make tournament qualifying easier too; just have a ladder in-client rather than qualifying tournaments etc...
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The current concern I have with HOTS is that yes we`ll have clans and chat channels, but these tools alone most likely won`t generate a good UMS scene, and the map making community still won`t have a way to make much of an impact. These are critical for keeping the scene fresh and it would remove a lot of pressure on blizzard because right now they are basically seated as judge, jury and executioner of their game.
The more tools the community manages to get from blizzard the better off we will be.
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The only possible downside is that custom ladders will be dominated by forum groups and pro teams. if you allow them as well as forum groups to start their own custom ladders in NA it will essentially draw away from the actual competitive ladder AND come down to those which are "most Played/Rated" or which offer the biggest reward (not necessarily monetary but PR/exposure). For a group of friends that just want to have some sort of 'fun competition' or 'see who's the best of us' type of thing it's a great idea, I just see problems arising when you have a "custom ladder" there to draw away from the "ranked ladder". Your idea of variable maps is cool too, except that most of the maps are untested compared to the ones in WoL, and we all know how bad most of the WoL maps were/still are.
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On November 23 2012 07:02 Shortynut wrote:
The only possible downside is that custom ladders will be dominated by forum groups and pro teams. if you allow them as well as forum groups to start their own custom ladders in NA it will essentially draw away from the actual competitive ladder AND come down to those which are "most Played/Rated" or which offer the biggest reward (not necessarily monetary but PR/exposure). For a group of friends that just want to have some sort of 'fun competition' or 'see who's the best of us' type of thing it's a great idea, I just see problems arising when you have a "custom ladder" there to draw away from the "ranked ladder". Your idea of variable maps is cool too, except that most of the maps are untested compared to the ones in WoL, and we all know how bad most of the WoL maps were/still are.
Uh. That was my point. The maps used in regular ladder have been tested and we all know how bad most of those maps have been or still are. The downside might be that we`d actually have to experiment on new maps? And that is a downside?
It might take away from ranked ladder? As if ladder fear and map boredom already didn`t accomplish the same thing? The people who want to be competitive on the blizzard ladder will play on the blizzard ladder.
The others will just throw their hands up in the air and use their sc2 discs as a massive paperweight. At least a custom ladder system might forward an incentive to try out other alternative UMS ladders and if gated properly blizzard could profit on the userbase having fun.
Eventually you will get to a point in HOTS where blizzard balancing becomes stale, the maps used in the pro scene won`t ever be featured, and as such the whole aspect of a competitive game is trashed online while a quiet murmuring will linger, waiting for a second Destiny thread or simply moving on with their lives.
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feels like a Legacy of the Void idea to me. It is a great idea, and could have a ton of positive impact on the scene, but there seem to be other, more pressuring issues waiting to be resolved first.
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So long as it would have an entry barrier to prevent terrible map pools from developing I do not see it as necessarily being a bad thing. Say allow each professional team, each map team (these teams would need it in order to continue advertising new maps that then disseminate into the other pools), and each tournament league (have a high prestige requirement for this so like NASL, DreamHack, GSL, etc. . .) the ability to create a pool that can easily be picked in an online format. Unless it was a mod specifically designated for a particular UMS playtype (i.e. KotH, FRB, Sniper Pro Mod, etc. . .) that has a competitive edge/feel to it and can be seen as having tournament qualities -- I don't know that allowing UMS into the mix would be a good idea simply because of the amount of UMS that gets created by individuals, let alone full team projects -- but this comes back to the entry barrier problem and regulating on that end. I can see it working -- just can't say anything on implementation for that particular subset.
Just for the record -- the melee mapmaking community is already beginning preparatory work for HotS as well as the production of certain tools to try and alleviate some of the issues plaguing the community in regards to map pools due to Blizzard's lack of certain tools support. We'll be seeing some awesome new stuff in the future. Hopefully people take the cue.
Thought I'd pop this over on the Beta forums to see if we can't get some attention on the matter or even just a blue post of "that's a great idea!".... see HERE
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This is a great idea. I'd fucking love playing a Fastest Map or Nexus Wars ladder! :D
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The 10th iteration of blizzard balancing for HOTS is out. Still don`t want to cry about custom ladders? Let the community sort out balance?
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You talk as if we are in some sort of position to force Blizzard to give us such power.
Besides i still stick to the mindset of my quote and leave it to the profesionals. Dustin Browder have actually given some decent reasoning for the latest changes.
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Nobody wants to have a dozen different ladders with a dozen different rule sets. What people DO want is to have one ladder that has the maps the community feels are "good" on it. FRB, unit balance, and other things can be tested and it'd be great if it were implemented (but it probably won't), but the main thing is just that the community wants better maps - and Blizzard isn't giving it to them.
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On December 21 2012 05:38 Treehead wrote:
Nobody wants to have a dozen different ladders with a dozen different rule sets. What people DO want is to have one ladder that has the maps the community feels are "good" on it. FRB, unit balance, and other things can be tested and it'd be great if it were implemented (but it probably won't), but the main thing is just that the community wants better maps - and Blizzard isn't giving it to them.
You overestemate the unity of the community. I have found that when it comes to getting down to which changes should be implemented the only things people can aggre on is that they can't agree on anything, well i guess alot can agree on that they disagree with Blizzard. Alot of the same problems occur when it comes to selecting maps. Some want GSL Maps, some want the Kespa Maps and some even ask why Metropolis isn't back yet... Because it is 66% ZvT morons.
Anyway back to point. I would also say there is a heavy community anti-bias against Blizzards own maps. For example Simple analyses on some of the Kespa maps should show flaws that would be completely atrocious in normal WOL, but now it is suddenly innovative and inspiring. If Blizzard had done any of the same it would have made people scream on the forums i guarantee.
So be careful when trusting the unanimous wisdom of the community. It isn't there really.
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On December 21 2012 05:38 Treehead wrote:
Nobody wants to have a dozen different ladders with a dozen different rule sets. What people DO want is to have one ladder that has the maps the community feels are "good" on it. FRB, unit balance, and other things can be tested and it'd be great if it were implemented (but it probably won't), but the main thing is just that the community wants better maps - and Blizzard isn't giving it to them.
Ah I disagree with you.
If there was a ladder section that was made for tournaments and then there was a casual ladder section with maps like steppes of war it would benefit both parties.
Casual players don't want to play on big tournament maps (well it seems this way anyway I could be wrong) and pro's don't want to play on casual maps that casual players enjoy.
This would allow players who want to play on tournament maps to play on that ladder and it would benefit all. I bet all pro's/wanna be pro's/semi pro's would join the tournament ladder since that's what most pro's would do and it would benefit all.
Better then 1 ladder where blizzard tries (and fails) to please both parties.
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I want monobattles ladder 
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well there was an alternate ladder created by a community member, BUT NO ONE FUCKING PLAYED IT. What makes you think people will play this?
I'm always down for more customization, but with the advent of Groups/Clans, it should make organized custom gaming a bit easier.
and what I don't understand is that 3rd party ladders have existed outside of games for years. Counter-Strike, Dota, Street Fighter, um.. they all had 3rd party ladder systems, ESL, CAL, CPL... Do we really need blizzard to hold our hands on this one? I came from Counter-Strike where we played the game that was handed to us, and did everything else ourselves.
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I'd rather have BNet driven tournaments than this tbh :/
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Couldn't hurt to implement, but I think that counter to popular opinion Blizzard already pays too much attention to the popular vote. Fortunately most people are sheep and they will just regurgitate the opinion of their favorite sc2 personality - and since all the Destiny fans are already playing LoL, we might have a decent basis for this to work.
However after I open Starcraft I click F2 and "find match", and I guess it's the same for most people who appreciate it as a competitive game, so myself and many others who actively compete on ladder won't actually contribute.
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On November 23 2012 07:55 Madkipz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 07:02 Shortynut wrote:
The only possible downside is that custom ladders will be dominated by forum groups and pro teams. if you allow them as well as forum groups to start their own custom ladders in NA it will essentially draw away from the actual competitive ladder AND come down to those which are "most Played/Rated" or which offer the biggest reward (not necessarily monetary but PR/exposure). For a group of friends that just want to have some sort of 'fun competition' or 'see who's the best of us' type of thing it's a great idea, I just see problems arising when you have a "custom ladder" there to draw away from the "ranked ladder". Your idea of variable maps is cool too, except that most of the maps are untested compared to the ones in WoL, and we all know how bad most of the WoL maps were/still are. Uh. That was my point. The maps used in regular ladder have been tested and we all know how bad most of those maps have been or still are. The downside might be that we`d actually have to experiment on new maps? And that is a downside? It might take away from ranked ladder? As if ladder fear and map boredom already didn`t accomplish the same thing? The people who want to be competitive on the blizzard ladder will play on the blizzard ladder. The others will just throw their hands up in the air and use their sc2 discs as a massive paperweight. At least a custom ladder system might forward an incentive to try out other alternative UMS ladders and if gated properly blizzard could profit on the userbase having fun. Eventually you will get to a point in HOTS where blizzard balancing becomes stale, the maps used in the pro scene won`t ever be featured, and as such the whole aspect of a competitive game is trashed online while a quiet murmuring will linger, waiting for a second Destiny thread or simply moving on with their lives.
Another downside for a custom ladders would be increased que times in the main ladder, the customs ladders would also have a long waiting time, you would basically be splitting up the community between differant ladders. With a smaller playerbase you will also get alot more uneven matchups. The ladder wouldn't be a the best place for pros to train even if the prominent maps were used since pros genereally need spcified training instead of ovearall to get better. Say your tvz is really good compared to the other 2 matchups it would be alot better to just focus on the matchups you are bad at until you get to the same level with them as your tvz which is not something you can do on ladder.
You prophesize what will happen during the HotS period, but I don't see why you or Destiny for that matter would actually know how things are going to turn out, neither of you work at blizzard nor know how they are going to do things moving forward. Even if they decide to not feature pro maps I'm not sure that is neccesarrily a bad thing. The ladder ins't made specifiacally for pros. What the pros want and what the average player wants in the map may very well differ and keep in mind that the pros are only a VERY VERY small percentage of the player base. If I remember correctly 40% of all ranked players are bronze league.
Destinys thread was in my opinion just stupid and filled no funktion. Blizzard most likely didn't change ANYTHING beacause of it except maybe posting those blog posts a bit ahead of schedule, all it did was throw up unneccesary controversy. Starcraft won't die aslong as there are people willing to play it. Nor do I think ums are as important now as they were in the past, there wasn't as much competition. For them to benefit the e-sport scene aswell they can't be to unlike the normal starcraft game an example of this would be fastest map possible. If it is something that is very differant from starcrafts core gameplay I don't see those players being involved in the starcraft scene because of it say legion td. I for one played alot of custom games in wc3 but i didn't give the slightest fuck about the e-sport scene but all the mods i played deviated ALOT from the core gameplay of wc3 such as tds, footmen etc. Back to the point I don't think ums games are as attractive now as they were back then since there are so many FREE alternatives that are just as good or better. Why would I play some sc2 ums instead of say LoL or something similair or legion td (Which i must say is really fun, it might be called squadron td in sc2). LoL for example doesn't really have an ums scene (with the exeption of all-random all mid)but it is doing great anyway and alot of people tune in to streams and e-sports and that is because people keep playing the main game which is very attractive since the game is constantly evolving, if they stopped introducing new heroes and patching the game every few weeks the games player base would take a nosedive, then you have sc2 it doens't change alot at all but people still tune in to play it and that just shows how great a game sc2 actually is.
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EPT
