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On November 18 2012 15:08 pmp10 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 14:56 SarcasmMonster wrote:IMPORTANT: About that last update monk: Just talked to Dustin and did an interview. There's a mistake in this translation. He said in the test map, Psionic units will be unaffected by Fungal, not Neural. Also, they're looking into a lot of changes for the infestor, including removing Neural entirely. That makes even less sense. Maybe it was supposed to say that massive units are not to be affected by fungal?
Psionic units are the Sentry, High Templar, Dark Templar, Archon, Warp Prism, Mothership, Ghost, Queen, Infestor. So maybe their reasoning is so that Z can still fungal Colossi, but not Archons and Mothership? This would also buff WP harassment a little.
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On November 18 2012 15:08 pmp10 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 14:56 SarcasmMonster wrote:IMPORTANT: About that last update monk: Just talked to Dustin and did an interview. There's a mistake in this translation. He said in the test map, Psionic units will be unaffected by Fungal, not Neural. Also, they're looking into a lot of changes for the infestor, including removing Neural entirely. That makes even less sense. Maybe it was supposed to say that massive units are not to be affected by fungal?
No, psionic units will not be affected by fungal making it so that it actually has a counter.
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On November 18 2012 18:01 GeorgiusRex wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 15:08 pmp10 wrote:On November 18 2012 14:56 SarcasmMonster wrote:IMPORTANT: About that last update monk: Just talked to Dustin and did an interview. There's a mistake in this translation. He said in the test map, Psionic units will be unaffected by Fungal, not Neural. Also, they're looking into a lot of changes for the infestor, including removing Neural entirely. That makes even less sense. Maybe it was supposed to say that massive units are not to be affected by fungal? Psionic units are the Sentry, High Templar, Dark Templar, Archon, Warp Prism, Mothership, Ghost, Queen, Infestor. So maybe their reasoning is so that Z can still fungal Colossi, but not Archons and Mothership? This would also buff WP harassment a little.
How much difference unfungable archons can make?
If anything it's the sentries that will be most affected making sniping with chain-fungals impossible.
And all that will do is make immortal/sentry more powerful.
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On November 18 2012 18:50 pmp10 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 18:01 GeorgiusRex wrote:On November 18 2012 15:08 pmp10 wrote:On November 18 2012 14:56 SarcasmMonster wrote:IMPORTANT: About that last update monk: Just talked to Dustin and did an interview. There's a mistake in this translation. He said in the test map, Psionic units will be unaffected by Fungal, not Neural. Also, they're looking into a lot of changes for the infestor, including removing Neural entirely. That makes even less sense. Maybe it was supposed to say that massive units are not to be affected by fungal? Psionic units are the Sentry, High Templar, Dark Templar, Archon, Warp Prism, Mothership, Ghost, Queen, Infestor. So maybe their reasoning is so that Z can still fungal Colossi, but not Archons and Mothership? This would also buff WP harassment a little. How much difference unfungable archons can make? If anything it's the sentries that will be most affected making sniping with chain-fungals impossible. And all that will do is make immortal/sentry more powerful.
A lot, since counters to Archons are Roaches with Infestors, Roaches have 1 more range than Archons, and with Fungal you just destroy them. With them being unaffected by Fungal, we might see again Zealots with Archons and HTs in PvZ. And everything that can't be affected by Fungal anymore will get serious buff.
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Fungal not hitting psionic sounds like a lame joke to me. This effectively means that zerg can't touch protoss army before broodlords are out. Warp prism will need corruptors or mutalisks and this really hurts (warp prism harrass can come way before the usual spire timing so zergs are compelled to painfully spend 200 200 only to counter a low cost unit). Sentries will be even stronger (maybe they thought they weren't important enough?) since z won't be able to kill them until they are out of force fields. Also it is to note that all this comes while Browder says that sentry-immortal all-in does not require any fixes (while , in reality, it's exactly like in morrow's thread).
I do agree a small nerf should hit infestors but surely not the one that would make already borderline op units stronger nor cheap units very cost effective.
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I think it would be better to give Fungal diminishing returns then to just up and make a unit type immune (although I'm fine with Interceptors being rendered immune to Fungal). Make it so that units affected by Fungal gain a Spore marker, like the Acid Spores the Devourer had. Each Spore (max of 2) reduces the amount of time that Fungal roots the target by 1 second (damage will still occur over the entire spell time). The Spores expire 2 seconds after the Fungal that granted them does. Chain Fungaling can still be done, but at greater cost to the Zerg. If instead the Zerg player wants to let the Spores expire, then the opposing player has gained a small window to do something to mitigate the incoming Fungal.
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On November 21 2012 01:02 Karpfen wrote:
Fungal not hitting psionic sounds like a lame joke to me. This effectively means that zerg can't touch protoss army before broodlords are out. Warp prism will need corruptors or mutalisks and this really hurts (warp prism harrass can come way before the usual spire timing so zergs are compelled to painfully spend 200 200 only to counter a low cost unit). Sentries will be even stronger (maybe they thought they weren't important enough?) since z won't be able to kill them until they are out of force fields. Also it is to note that all this comes while Browder says that sentry-immortal all-in does not require any fixes (while , in reality, it's exactly like in morrow's thread).
I do agree a small nerf should hit infestors but surely not the one that would make already borderline op units stronger nor cheap units very cost effective.
Seems like an ugly way to try to balance it to me...just too brute force of a method.
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On November 21 2012 11:47 xPrimuSx wrote:
I think it would be better to give Fungal diminishing returns then to just up and make a unit type immune (although I'm fine with Interceptors being rendered immune to Fungal). Make it so that units affected by Fungal gain a Spore marker, like the Acid Spores the Devourer had. Each Spore (max of 2) reduces the amount of time that Fungal roots the target by 1 second (damage will still occur over the entire spell time). The Spores expire 2 seconds after the Fungal that granted them does. Chain Fungaling can still be done, but at greater cost to the Zerg. If instead the Zerg player wants to let the Spores expire, then the opposing player has gained a small window to do something to mitigate the incoming Fungal.
That solves chain fungaling, but that's only half the problem. Imo it would be better just to have fungal start out as root and have the effect wear off as the spell goes on.
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IMO colossus and siege tanks should be next in line to get some good looks by the balance team. Doubt it happens though. Also, couldnt they have just made fungal a projectile and reduced the strength of infested terrans? I could see the psionic change zerg even worse in mid-game.
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I don't think "immunity" will be the final balance decision, I think "immunity" will be just to test how much Fungal Growth plays a roll in the ZvP and ZvT match ups and whether or not Zerg can live without it. It's more likely they'll experiment with increasing the range of Feedback and EMP or decreasing the range of Fungal Growth so the counters to Infestors, High Templars and Ghosts, don't have to A-move into Fungal Growth range before they can cast their equivalent spells.
If they decreased the range of Fungal Growth, made fungal growth a projectile and replaced the snare with a slow it'd be a much more micro intensive ability with a clear counter. Making Psionic immune to Fungal Growth is just really shitty game design, I just shook my head when Dustin Browder said they'd make Psionic immune to Fungal Growth but it'd be "weird" if they made Interceptors immune to Fungal Growth, they have some pretty ass backwards standards at Blizzard.
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Balance or no balance, designwisenot being able to transform between hellions and hellbats sounds like an awful idea.
Finally hellions sounded like they could become useful more than for harassing and used a longer period of time in game.
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On November 18 2012 18:01 GeorgiusRex wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 15:08 pmp10 wrote:On November 18 2012 14:56 SarcasmMonster wrote:IMPORTANT: About that last update monk: Just talked to Dustin and did an interview. There's a mistake in this translation. He said in the test map, Psionic units will be unaffected by Fungal, not Neural. Also, they're looking into a lot of changes for the infestor, including removing Neural entirely. That makes even less sense. Maybe it was supposed to say that massive units are not to be affected by fungal? Psionic units are the Sentry, High Templar, Dark Templar, Archon, Warp Prism, Mothership, Ghost, Queen, Infestor. So maybe their reasoning is so that Z can still fungal Colossi, but not Archons and Mothership? This would also buff WP harassment a little.
It´s not going to be just a little.
Warp prisms cannot be caught with infestor anymore, but more importantly Dark Templar will likely not get revealed by Fungal. I have no idea how strong this is going to be, but it sounds strong to me.
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On November 21 2012 13:48 LockeTazeline wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 11:47 xPrimuSx wrote:
I think it would be better to give Fungal diminishing returns then to just up and make a unit type immune (although I'm fine with Interceptors being rendered immune to Fungal). Make it so that units affected by Fungal gain a Spore marker, like the Acid Spores the Devourer had. Each Spore (max of 2) reduces the amount of time that Fungal roots the target by 1 second (damage will still occur over the entire spell time). The Spores expire 2 seconds after the Fungal that granted them does. Chain Fungaling can still be done, but at greater cost to the Zerg. If instead the Zerg player wants to let the Spores expire, then the opposing player has gained a small window to do something to mitigate the incoming Fungal. That solves chain fungaling, but that's only half the problem. Imo it would be better just to have fungal start out as root and have the effect wear off as the spell goes on.
Well chain fungaling is the main problem. A skill like Fungal that roots a target for 4 seconds and does half the damage of Storm isn't anything major, its strong certainly, but not game breaking. The issue with Fungal is that you can use it to lock units in place permanently, or at least until the Zerg runs out of energy/the units die. Without chain fungals, the opposing player actually has the chance to respond, which is really all I think needs to happen.
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Probably should get this thread moved out of the HOTS subforum.
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Seriously, blizzard should change the ultralisk to what it was in broodwar. Reduce it's scale size, and add a speed upgrade. Burrow charge is a lame copy of zealot charge. WTF is wrong with blizzard.
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On November 23 2012 09:13 willoc wrote:
Probably should get this thread moved out of the HOTS subforum.
Most if not all of these changes are targeted for HOTS.
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So aparently SC2 is lame :/
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On November 23 2012 23:38 XxJuicexX wrote:
Seriously, blizzard should change the ultralisk to what it was in broodwar. Reduce it's scale size, and add a speed upgrade. Burrow charge is a lame copy of zealot charge. WTF is wrong with blizzard.
Burrow Charge is nothing like the Zealot Charge, which is mindless ability that has auto-cast. They also had the speed upgrade, then they removed it and gave it speed upgrade by default, don't see how is this a problem.
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On November 24 2012 00:13 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 23:38 XxJuicexX wrote:
Seriously, blizzard should change the ultralisk to what it was in broodwar. Reduce it's scale size, and add a speed upgrade. Burrow charge is a lame copy of zealot charge. WTF is wrong with blizzard. Burrow Charge is nothing like the Zealot Charge, which is mindless ability that has auto-cast. They also had the speed upgrade, then they removed it and gave it speed upgrade by default, don't see how is this a problem.
Speed upgrade by default? The ultralisk moves the same as it did in WOL. The charge ability is the same crap as burrow charge; just that you go under ground. Stop trying to wish that HOTS is something else.
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On November 24 2012 01:17 XxJuicexX wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 00:13 Ramiz1989 wrote:On November 23 2012 23:38 XxJuicexX wrote:
Seriously, blizzard should change the ultralisk to what it was in broodwar. Reduce it's scale size, and add a speed upgrade. Burrow charge is a lame copy of zealot charge. WTF is wrong with blizzard. Burrow Charge is nothing like the Zealot Charge, which is mindless ability that has auto-cast. They also had the speed upgrade, then they removed it and gave it speed upgrade by default, don't see how is this a problem. Speed upgrade by default? The ultralisk moves the same as it did in WOL. The charge ability is the same crap as burrow charge; just that you go under ground. Stop trying to wish that HOTS is something else.
Zealot Charge:
-Auto cast ability
-Attacks nearest enemy
-Blocked by friendly unit collision
Ultralisk Charge:
-Manual Cast
-Selective use, can be used to dodge enemy attacks (you don't have to focus on an enemy to use it, it can be used with micro similar to blink micro or used as an escape mechanism.)
-Allows for Ultralisk to negate friendly collision
-Ultralisk is now guaranteed to do some damage by negating initial engagement damage
-Allows for Ultralisk to get behind enemy forces and focus down important units such as thors/tanks/collosi/immortals
-Scatters enemy units upon contact when unburrowed, allowing for more surface area of attack by zerg units
I'm sorry, but you really couldn't be more wrong lol.
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EPT
