|
Russian Federation4295 Posts
I've decided to do some small tests around Ultralisk's burrow charge ability. Well, it's not that slow and not that fast, and it can be speeded up on creep.
I will not write a big article about this ability, here are just some numbers:
Ultralisk speed off creep: 2.95
Ultralisk speed on creep: 2.95 + 0.88 = 3.83
Burrow Charge speed off creep: 2.95 - 0.5 = 2.45
Burrow Charge speed on creep: 2.95 + 0.88 - 0.5 = 3.33
Only one thing is not properly tested: can enemy atack Ultralisks while they're in burrow charge without detection.
I've tested it on the Unit tester map that is available in Hots, but on this map every unit can see stealth units without detection. But I think, it will be more logical, that enemy can atack Ultralisks during burrow charge process, if they have detection.
Well, this ability 100% fixes one problem, when Ultralisks trying to reach enemy throughout other zerg units, like zerglings or broodlings.
|
200/200 to make my ultras move slower??????
|
Charge is dumb. Ultralisks need to be able to walk over other Zerg units like Colossus. That would make them terrifying.
|
i think the charge looks pretty stupid as well.
|
On October 21 2012 00:41 BronzeKnee wrote:
Charge is dumb. Ultralisks need to be able to walk over other Zerg units like Colossus. That would make them terrifying.
Makes Ultras too ez to use like the Colossus.
|
On October 21 2012 00:41 BronzeKnee wrote:
Charge is dumb. Ultralisks need to be able to walk over other Zerg units like Colossus. That would make them terrifying.
That would be a mess in terms of visibility. How can you tell how many lings are under the ultralisk? Not the opponent, nor the viewer.
|
On October 21 2012 00:39 WarpTV wrote:
200/200 to make my ultras move slower??????
They actually perform much better with the upgrade.
The real problem is that you need to upgrade. Chitin is too important to the success of Ultras.
I would rather they could automatically charge after Burrow research, sorta like Infestors.
|
Russian Federation4295 Posts
WHat about making 2 ultralisk caverns to research those 2 upgrades simultaneously? In late macro-game one more Ulrealisk Cavern does not eats a lot of resources
|
ultralisk still suck ZvP and with the introducement of widow mines and BH they also sucks ZvT now.
as been mentioned having to research 2 very long upgrades isnt viable + charge is WAY too slow. especially if fungal gets changed to a slow ultras and ultracharge needs to be a lot faster.
another problem of ultras is their terrible pathing. make them smaller, cost 4 supply and faster to make ultras viable ZvP and in the new ZvT.
btw: charge makes ultras slower AND all the units that walk above the ultra + the ultra itself get hit by AoE. so charge makes everything be hit by more AoE while being slower...just really bad as is. charge need to be a lot faster...hell its even called charge and not slowly crawling.
|
On October 21 2012 00:52 [F_]aths wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2012 00:41 BronzeKnee wrote:
Charge is dumb. Ultralisks need to be able to walk over other Zerg units like Colossus. That would make them terrifying. That would be a mess in terms of visibility. How can you tell how many lings are under the ultralisk? Not the opponent, nor the viewer.
You're right. Now we know when exactly 73 Lings are attacking, and if a few are covered we won't be able to get a perfect count in the heat of battle.
But seriously, is it a mess in terms of visibility with the Colossus? Sure, but does it matter? Not really.
|
Russian Federation4295 Posts
as been mentioned having to research 2 very long upgrades isnt viable + charge is WAY too slow. especially if fungal gets changed to a slow ultras and ultracharge needs to be a lot faster.
Ultralisks still have Frenzy
charge makes ultras slower AND all the units that walk above the ultra
It makes Ultras slower but allows them to avoid stucking in zerg units and reachig enemy forces faster.
|
I never understood why Ultra's don't have overhead-walk ability like the Colossus, its a glaring mistake. Both have multiple legs for easy over-walk ability, yet only the Colossus gets it....
|
On October 21 2012 01:33 Existor wrote:Show nested quote +as been mentioned having to research 2 very long upgrades isnt viable + charge is WAY too slow. especially if fungal gets changed to a slow ultras and ultracharge needs to be a lot faster. Ultralisks still have Frenzy It makes Ultras slower but allows them to avoid stucking in zerg units and reachig enemy forces faster.
they had frenzy in WoL and SUCK vs toss and now with widow mines killing lings and banes and battlehelions also killing lings and banes ultras suck also ZvT (although not so much as ZvP). them still having frenzy is a bad argument therefore.
i now how it was supposed to work but sadly it works the other way. now more zerg units are hit by AoE and the disadvantages of that is a lot higher than the advantages since charge is so slow.
and as i said: this gets A LOT worse with fungal being a slow but if they decide to make fungal a slow a lot of other zerg units need to be buffed anyway so lets see. i really cant wait for blizzard to start working on WoL units but i think they will at least test with the HOTS units for the next 3-4 weeks (which is fine).
|
On October 21 2012 00:41 BronzeKnee wrote:
Charge is dumb. Ultralisks need to be able to walk over other Zerg units like Colossus. That would make them terrifying.
I've long been in favor of Ultras being able to walk over zerglings. But walking over roaches, probably not a great idea. Combining zerglings and ultras means that the lings have a much harder time closing the distance to their target, and allowing them to use ultras as a protective meatshield instead of a roadblock would do wonders for both units. But letting your ultras get behind your roaches and hydras and asking for it not to be a problem, is just making excuses for bad unit control.
|
On October 21 2012 01:22 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2012 00:52 [F_]aths wrote:On October 21 2012 00:41 BronzeKnee wrote:
Charge is dumb. Ultralisks need to be able to walk over other Zerg units like Colossus. That would make them terrifying. That would be a mess in terms of visibility. How can you tell how many lings are under the ultralisk? Not the opponent, nor the viewer. You're right. Now we know when exactly 73 Lings are attacking, and if a few are covered we won't be able to get a perfect count in the heat of battle. But seriously, is it a mess in terms of visibility with the Colossus? Sure, but does it matter? Not really.
Pretty much my thoughts. Having ultralisks walk over zerglings would be terrific.
|
Burrow Charge is pretty epic in terms of viewing and overall works really well and allows impressive moves. Have to giggle at this omg needing 2 upgrades to become really good is to much. Sometimes it has to be that way, with that argument Terrans could turn marine shields and stim into one upgrade ... or a few other upgrades terran has.
That being said I like it and got alot of players with the lovely double cavern play. But I think they have to make the charge more visible if there is no detection available.
|
The ultra did walk over lings at some point in alpha or beta, before i got my key. It was removed very quickly because the 60 damage siege tank destroyed it surprise buttsecks style, while it kind of murdered most other stuff.
|
On October 21 2012 00:41 BronzeKnee wrote:
Charge is dumb. Ultralisks need to be able to walk over other Zerg units like Colossus. That would make them terrifying.
If being able to walk over units was an upgrade like charge it would be way better than charge in it's current form.
|
Russian Federation4295 Posts
On October 21 2012 03:10 DanLee wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2012 00:41 BronzeKnee wrote:
Charge is dumb. Ultralisks need to be able to walk over other Zerg units like Colossus. That would make them terrifying. If being able to walk over units was an upgrade like charge it would be way better than charge in it's current form.
It will be too op
|
If you have Ultras over your units you will suffer the "deathball" syndrome, and any sort of AoE attacks will absolutely kill everything because your army is not spread out enough to be cost-efficient.
There is nothing OP about that. It's just making the Zerg more vulnerable to splash damage, so in fact it'd make them weaker overall.
|
Burrow charge is a gimmic.
we don't need more gimmics in sc2.
|
How is it a gimmick?
The fact that Ultras can't close in on, well, anything, really, if something blocks them, is a huge gaffe by Blizz since SC1. This is a nice micro-based way of fixing the issue.
|
On October 21 2012 03:29 Oakwarrior wrote:
How is it a gimmick?
The fact that Ultras can't close in on, well, anything, really, if something blocks them, is a huge gaffe by Blizz since SC1. This is a nice micro-based way of fixing the issue.
or just decrease the model size like how they did with the thor and have ultras have a higher pathing priority.
|
Ultras should walk over zerglings AND shield them from AoE. That would be a unit worth making 
|
Russian Federation4295 Posts
On October 21 2012 03:49 Umpteen wrote:Ultras should walk over zerglings AND shield them from AoE. That would be a unit worth making
With blinding cloud and fungals it will make gameplay as zergs more a-move and more boring.
|
On October 21 2012 02:35 FeyFey wrote:
Burrow Charge is pretty epic in terms of viewing and overall works really well and allows impressive moves. Have to giggle at this omg needing 2 upgrades to become really good is to much. Sometimes it has to be that way, with that argument Terrans could turn marine shields and stim into one upgrade ... or a few other upgrades terran has.
Those are early-game upgrades for a unit that doesn't suck.
A better comparison would be the Raven or the Battlecruiser.
|
On October 21 2012 03:26 Oakwarrior wrote:
If you have Ultras over your units you will suffer the "deathball" syndrome, and any sort of AoE attacks will absolutely kill everything because your army is not spread out enough to be cost-efficient.
There is nothing OP about that. It's just making the Zerg more vulnerable to splash damage, so in fact it'd make them weaker overall.
and it would reward better positioning/control.
edit: forgot to add I would call it "caring footsteps"
|
On October 21 2012 04:02 Existor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2012 03:49 Umpteen wrote:Ultras should walk over zerglings AND shield them from AoE. That would be a unit worth making With blinding cloud and fungals it will make gameplay as zergs more a-move and more boring.
The Ultra is a melee unit that isn't ridiculously quick the Zergling. So like the Zealot, it is A-move. And that is ok.
But Ultralisks shielding Zerglings is a bad idea.
|
Honestly I think the problem is more that Brood Lord tech is too enticing, that there isn't much incentive for a Zerg to go Ultralisks, even with the marginal boost to their effectiveness.
|
On October 21 2012 04:22 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2012 04:02 Existor wrote:On October 21 2012 03:49 Umpteen wrote:Ultras should walk over zerglings AND shield them from AoE. That would be a unit worth making With blinding cloud and fungals it will make gameplay as zergs more a-move and more boring. The Ultra is a melee unit that isn't ridiculously quick the Zergling. So like the Zealot, it is A-move. And that is ok. But Ultralisks shielding Zerglings is a bad idea.
I like the aoe shield idea if it is an upgrade, we could call it "caring carapace"
|
Russian Federation4295 Posts
Honestly I think the problem is more that Brood Lord tech is too enticing, that there isn't much incentive for a Zerg to go Ultralisks, even with the marginal boost to their effectiveness.
But there are some new features why Ultralisks can be better:
* Blind Cloud + Burrow Charge + Fungals = stunned + can't atack normally + no siege firing + enemies will be more spreaded allowing zerglings to surrown more targets
* Locusts can tank some damage while Ultralisks trying to reach enemy under locusts
|
On October 21 2012 02:51 CYFAWS wrote:
The ultra did walk over lings at some point in alpha or beta, before i got my key. It was removed very quickly because the 60 damage siege tank destroyed it surprise buttsecks style, while it kind of murdered most other stuff.
I don't think it did. At least it's not in any of the beta patch notes, and not in any of the battle reports either. It did have a speed upgrade though.
On October 21 2012 03:29 Oakwarrior wrote:
How is it a gimmick?
The fact that Ultras can't close in on, well, anything, really, if something blocks them, is a huge gaffe by Blizz since SC1. This is a nice micro-based way of fixing the issue.
It's a gimmick in the sense that out of all the zerg creatures that look like they would be able to burrow through the ground, ultralisk is the least likely candidate. Hell, they didn't even have burrow in BW, while all other zerg ground units did. We already have two units with burrowed movement, adding a third seems extra silly.
A much more visually fitting ability would be either the walk-over-zerglings thing, or perhaps something along the line of pushing small units out of the way when they walk. You can base it on dropship cargo size.
On October 21 2012 04:22 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2012 04:02 Existor wrote:On October 21 2012 03:49 Umpteen wrote:Ultras should walk over zerglings AND shield them from AoE. That would be a unit worth making With blinding cloud and fungals it will make gameplay as zergs more a-move and more boring. The Ultra is a melee unit that isn't ridiculously quick the Zergling. So like the Zealot, it is A-move. And that is ok. But Ultralisks shielding Zerglings is a bad idea.
I think it should work like a dark swarm; protect lings against direct damage, but not against splash.
|
Charge is terribly useless in the current state, it's slow, it's hard to micro and the upgrade is expensive. At the current state it could be free and come without upgrades and still would be bad.
It's especially terrible against any player that can kite as you dont cast it on a unit, but a spot on the ground.
|
On October 21 2012 04:29 Existor wrote:Show nested quote +Honestly I think the problem is more that Brood Lord tech is too enticing, that there isn't much incentive for a Zerg to go Ultralisks, even with the marginal boost to their effectiveness. But there are some new features why Ultralisks can be better: * Blind Cloud + Burrow Charge + Fungals = stunned + can't atack normally + no siege firing + enemies will be more spreaded allowing zerglings to surrown more targets * Locusts can tank some damage while Ultralisks trying to reach enemy under locusts
That would require 1000 apm, three seperate bindings (infestors, viper, ultralisk), then three seperate spells need to be casted.
No way this will ever happen ;o
|
On October 21 2012 05:17 Defrag wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2012 04:29 Existor wrote:Honestly I think the problem is more that Brood Lord tech is too enticing, that there isn't much incentive for a Zerg to go Ultralisks, even with the marginal boost to their effectiveness. But there are some new features why Ultralisks can be better: * Blind Cloud + Burrow Charge + Fungals = stunned + can't atack normally + no siege firing + enemies will be more spreaded allowing zerglings to surrown more targets * Locusts can tank some damage while Ultralisks trying to reach enemy under locusts That would require 1000 apm, three seperate bindings (infestors, viper, ultralisk), then three seperate spells need to be casted. No way this will ever happen ;o
it isn't as hard as you make it sound and you could do it with one CTRL group and tab through em, though I personally hotkey investors and ultras with ground army and vipers on their own or with air units and I think this can be done pretty effectively with 150+ apm
|
... now with widow mines killing lings and banes and battlehelions also killing lings and banes ultras suck also ZvT (although not so much as ZvP)...
I don't got Hots. Do "Hellbats" really kill Banelings?
They got more health than Hellions but afaik they are still light units, got really low range and Banelings aren't light or armored units. I thought you can split them to not lose all of them at once but I didn't expect them to be able to kill Banelings before they reach them.
|
On October 21 2012 02:35 FeyFey wrote:
Burrow Charge is pretty epic in terms of viewing and overall works really well and allows impressive moves. Have to giggle at this omg needing 2 upgrades to become really good is to much. Sometimes it has to be that way, with that argument Terrans could turn marine shields and stim into one upgrade ... or a few other upgrades terran has.
That being said I like it and got alot of players with the lovely double cavern play. But I think they have to make the charge more visible if there is no detection available.
Eh no, its not like that at all. Marines are a tier one unit, its upgrades exist to allow you to keep the unit viable as higher tech units come out later in the game. Tier three units are generally supposed to be "complete" with a single upgrade. A better comparison to make for your point would be to say that several of the raven upgrades should be rolled into one.
This is why the speed upgrade for the ultra was removed and given to the ultra by default.
|
On October 21 2012 05:16 Defrag wrote:
Charge is terribly useless in the current state, it's slow, it's hard to micro and the upgrade is expensive. At the current state it could be free and come without upgrades and still would be bad.
It's especially terrible against any player that can kite as you dont cast it on a unit, but a spot on the ground.
No and no and NO.
Please give me 500 replays of you micro'ing Burrow Charge to back up your claim. Are you trying to draw a conclusion on an ability that hasn't even been thoroughly played out in games yet? The Ultralisk is such a late game unit that it is usually extremely hard to test in the environment that SC2 provides right now.
The upgrade is priced well enough, it could even be more, because the micro potential is actually HUGE. With other support units such as Infestors/Vipers included the impact can even be greater. The ability gives you a method to push so, so hard into anything that's not thoroughly blocked by buildings. The inherent nature of this ability (requires micro) and the state of the game (raw) plus the ability's availability (15 minutes or so game time minimum in "standard" games) makes it difficult to test, for sure, but the ability itself both on paper and in practice is quite strong. You can charge positions and break contains like there's no tomorrow. And if you actually allow to kite yourself you're engaging TERRIBLY.
Burrow Charge is something of a late bloomer, it will take a long time for people to use it and appreciate it because, frankly, Ultras only show up in ZvT and even then rarely and people just assume it's shit because Ultras aren't so good in WoL. Give someone hundreds games to practice the ability and you'll see shit happen that'll make your jaw drop.
TL;DR: Don't discredit an ability because of your poor ability to micro and lack of practice with the ability itself.
|
On October 21 2012 04:22 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2012 04:02 Existor wrote:On October 21 2012 03:49 Umpteen wrote:Ultras should walk over zerglings AND shield them from AoE. That would be a unit worth making With blinding cloud and fungals it will make gameplay as zergs more a-move and more boring. The Ultra is a melee unit that isn't ridiculously quick the Zergling. So like the Zealot, it is A-move. And that is ok. But Ultralisks shielding Zerglings is a bad idea.
Just out of interest - why? I mean, it probably wouldn't make sense as just a straight buff, but maybe in context (an infestor nerf, for example) it would provide a way for Zergs to engage on the ground in the late game the way defilers did in BW. Less Broodlord/Infestor, anyone?
|
TL;DR: Don't discredit an ability because of your poor ability to micro and lack of practice with the ability itself.
Well said, bunch of whiners in here that probably have not even attempted to use the ability
|
On October 21 2012 05:28 DanLee wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2012 05:17 Defrag wrote:On October 21 2012 04:29 Existor wrote:Honestly I think the problem is more that Brood Lord tech is too enticing, that there isn't much incentive for a Zerg to go Ultralisks, even with the marginal boost to their effectiveness. But there are some new features why Ultralisks can be better: * Blind Cloud + Burrow Charge + Fungals = stunned + can't atack normally + no siege firing + enemies will be more spreaded allowing zerglings to surrown more targets * Locusts can tank some damage while Ultralisks trying to reach enemy under locusts That would require 1000 apm, three seperate bindings (infestors, viper, ultralisk), then three seperate spells need to be casted. No way this will ever happen ;o it isn't as hard as you make it sound and you could do it with one CTRL group and tab through em, though I personally hotkey investors and ultras with ground army and vipers on their own or with air units and I think this can be done pretty effectively with 150+ apm
Everything feels like it takes 1000 apm when you can't do it
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/0X1HW.jpg)
