We've been working hard to address concerns on the Oracle. We've tried many different things on it and aren't completely satisfied with where it's at. We may need to delay the Oracle patch until next week depending on how this goes.
Just to keep everyone updated and to get more feedback on our direction here's what we're thinking:
1. We agree with our community that Entomb is not a spectator friendly ability because it's so easy to execute and is targeted at only 1 location (minerals).
2. We'd like to replace Entomb with a different ability. Something that makes use of the fast movement speed of the Oracle and serves as a constant threat to the enemy base until the enemy destroys the Oracles. This way, there can be a greater difference between amazing use of the Oracle vs. an average use.
3. Void Siphon has clarity issues in terms of how much minerals have been earned through the use of this ability.
4. Revelation we feel is in a good place. It is a powerful late game tool for checking exactly where the opponent's army is. At the same time, we feel this is more of a utility spell.
We're playing around with various ideas at the moment, and don't have specifics but our goal seems to be:
Spell 1: Keep Revelation as is as the scouting option.
Spell 2: Strong, repeatable harassing tool that has different degrees of success and makes good use of the fragile but fast movement speed of the Oracle.
Spell 3: Position dependent spell, combo with harassment spell, and/or support spell of some sorts.
I propose a Lightning shield (from WC3) + Defensive matrix hybrid spell. A single Zealot infused with Lightning-shield-matrix in the mineral line would be so awesome Promotes small group tactics.
1. We agree with our community that Entomb is not a spectator friendly ability because it's so easy to execute and is targeted at only 1 location (minerals).
On October 18 2012 10:36 Blacklizard wrote: I am at once astounded and filled with joy. This is possibly one of the best and yet most unexpected changes that the game needed. Kudos Blizzard!
We don't even know what the replacement spells are yet so don't be toooooo optimistic lol.
Oh the Oracle. I'm also glad this is changing. There is nothing like playing against another Protoss in unranked and thinking, "This isn't doing anything, is this?" about Entomb.
Probably a .001% chance Blizz would see this, but it's worth mentioning to see what you all think: How about a spell that takes a second to cast that cloaks/mind controls an enemy unit. After 5 or 8 seconds, it uncloaks does AOE damage (45) centered around it and returns under the enemy's control. If the unit is killed before it decloaks, no explosion.
This improves upon Entomb... -This would mean a more permanent threat to mineral lines. -Similar to the detection needed for battling Widow Mines. -Micro intensive (you can see the blur of a worker that's been phased and run the heck away!) -A way to break siege lines with heavy units
Problems -its yet another aoe for protoss. -If you controlled an enemy caster, it wouldn't be able to use spells- that'd be way to good. -very good anti-air (mutalisks)
Where do I go in the beta forums to post this, lol?
Really happy about this update. Even though there are no actual changes announced yet, all their goals for the Oracle seem like exactly what I would aim for. Keep up the good work Blizz.
if you want to make a midgame harass unit what it needs to do is kill workers
all the midgame harass units that have ever existed, mutalisks, vultures, reavers, phoenixes, hellions, and medivac drops, all accomplish the same thing for the same reason - either high mobility and massive burst damage (reavers/hellions), or really really high mobility to the point where literally nothing they're facing can catch them if played perfectly (vults/mutas)
So all it takes for Blizzard to understand that their design ideas are awful is for us to beat it into their heads for months and months. People have been voicing their distaste of entomb since it was announced like what, last year? I want to remain positive but at this rate they'll release HOTS with the same number of issues WOL STILL has. Terran is still missing one entirely new unit (while toss and Zerg get 2/3 completely new units) and there have been dozens of excellent ideas on how to redesign war hound or even add something new. They need to hurry it up and listen to the community NOW instead of making changes after MONTHS of feedback, or this will never work.
On October 18 2012 11:29 Scila wrote: So all it takes for Blizzard to understand that their design ideas are awful is for us to beat it into their heads for months and months. People have been voicing their distaste of entomb since it was announced like what, last year? I want to remain positive but at this rate they'll release HOTS with the same number of issues WOL STILL has. Terran is still missing one entirely new unit (while toss and Zerg get 2/3 completely new units) and there have been dozens of excellent ideas on how to redesign war hound or even add something new. They need to hurry it up and listen to the community NOW instead of making changes after MONTHS of feedback, or this will never work.
#SaveHOTS
The irony is that they removed the Warhound because they we're listening to the community.
It's not really a problem with them listening. They do listen. They just don't know how to make good things. It's like a dumb rat you have to zap 27 times before they stumble upon something good. I jest, because game design is difficult, especially for a game like Starcraft. Yet, sometimes I do wonder how where their collective intuition of unit design goes.
Thank god they are getting rid of Entomb and even Void Syphon! And they know what we want in place of it too! All that's left is to be surprised by the unexpected choice they make for the new abilities.
On October 18 2012 09:46 SarcasmMonster wrote: So vague. Let's give them suggestions
I propose a Lightning shield (from WC3) + Defensive matrix hybrid spell. A single Zealot infused with Lightning-shield-matrix in the mineral line would be so awesome Promotes small group tactics.
1. We agree with our community that Entomb is not a spectator friendly ability because it's so easy to execute and is targeted at only 1 location (minerals).
At least they're catching on.
I second the Lightning shield idea, you can also cast it on enemy workers in the mineral line.
On October 18 2012 12:43 Fig wrote: Thank god they are getting rid of Entomb and even Void Syphon! And they know what we want in place of it too! All that's left is to be surprised by the unexpected choice they make for the new abilities.
Haha, but at least they seem to have the right concepts in mind now, so I am content.
I would like it if the oracle were to remove detection from buildings for a short period of time.
Also, something that would be crazy but might be interesting to try out would be a spell that you cast onto a unit such that all damage done to that unit becomes splash damage in a certain radius around the target.
With these two changes the oracle becomes the super utility unit that is pretty much useless by itself but when combined with other things becomes incredibly powerful. For instance an oracle + dt harass would mean the shutting down of turrets and spore colonies so your dts would be much better. Or oracle + pheonix harass could have the spell cast on overlords or mutas making the pheonix able to psi harass as well as take care of mutas. Bad idea, good idea?
I thought they would keep entomb for sure......looks like I'm eating my words on that one But hey at this rate here is some more predictions, thor strike cannon will remain unchanged and useless, the raven will remain terrans go to tier 3 unit, widow mine will be nerfed again, warpgate will still produce faster than gateways, void ray and collosus will remain unchanged, gateway units will still be weak, ultra burrow charge will remain un buffed, creep spread won't be nerfed, infestor will be unchanged and stay the answer to everything, mutas will become useless,the new nydus worms will never see the light of day COME ON BLIZZARD MAKE ME EAT MY WORDS AGAIN! I DARE YOU! He he he but for reals they are listening some what and major props to them, hope the trend continues!
Ok... call me crazy here... but why not make the Oracle... A FLYING REAVER. Ok, don't get your panties in a bunch, here me out. First of all the Reaver was universally loved in SC1, and any type of predecessor, spiritual or otherwise, will be received positively from the community.
But let's examine why the Reaver was so FUN TO WATCH for casuals, as from the post Blizz is clearly paying attention to spectator friendliness: 1) Did BIG TIME damage, which created tension 2) Was flukey, thus created even MORE tension 3) The ability to micro reaver/shuttle was an artform, and thus enjoyable to watch for competitive players as well
Of course the reaver/shuttle dynamic is lost if it is just put onto one unit, and there is also the balance concern with adding a reaver-like attack unit into a protoss deathball. Both these issues can be solved, and the spiritual predecessor of the reaver can remain intact by making it so that the attack is more effective at closer ranges. This can be done in many ways, such as a slow movement rate of the projectile, a failure rate the farther it is launched (e.g. random pathing like the reaver scarabs), etc. so if it is noticed it can be dodged with proper micro which creates this tension. But in a normal battle the oracle could just get instantly sniped since it would have to get too close to the enemy to use the skill.
Give it Disruption Web or Stasis Field and be done with FFS.
Stasis field could for be used for damn near anything including non-deadly worker harass meanwhile Disruption Web would be an excellent defensive and offensive spell exactly like it was in BW.
For the sake of balance Stasis field could only work on light units so it doesn't turn into a stronger version of fungals rooting effect.
Just chiming in to say that any sort of mobile healing/shield restoring platform is a HUGE HUGE no-no for Protoss in SC2 due to the design decisions taken with the race. They are cost efficient as they are already, and with recall/healing you only need to build one army the entire game and win by attrition no matter what, be it early/mid/late game.
What I would like to see is still some indirect harm, much like Entomb is actually working right now. I guess a way to make Entomb work would be having the ability changed to single-target. In this case people can go "WOW he entombed the whole mineral line!" instead of "pff, another shift click by a camping Oracle). This would of course presume a change in energy cost to something Blizzard doesn't like (which means not divisible by 25 :D). But there are many ways to inflict indirect harm (Overseer Contaminate for example) so I'd like to see what they come up with.
Why don't they give the oracle a slow spell? It could be an area of effect spell that slows the movement speeds of units that are in it. They could use it to harass workers the same way they are using it now and they could also use it in army engagements to either prevent retreats or assist in their own retreats.
Might have to balance it for usage against workers, though.
On October 18 2012 14:05 lost_artz wrote: Give it Disruption Web or Stasis Field and be done with FFS.
Stasis field could for be used for damn near anything including non-deadly worker harass meanwhile Disruption Web would be an excellent defensive and offensive spell exactly like it was in BW.
For the sake of balance Stasis field could only work on light units so it doesn't turn into a stronger version of fungals rooting effect.
That spell was replaced by Vortex, and everyone would hate it anyway, because it would "remove micro".
1. We agree with our community that Entomb is not a spectator friendly ability because it's so easy to execute and is targeted at only 1 location (minerals).
On October 18 2012 14:05 lost_artz wrote: Give it Disruption Web or Stasis Field and be done with FFS.
Stasis field could for be used for damn near anything including non-deadly worker harass meanwhile Disruption Web would be an excellent defensive and offensive spell exactly like it was in BW.
For the sake of balance Stasis field could only work on light units so it doesn't turn into a stronger version of fungals rooting effect.
That spell was replaced by Vortex, and everyone would hate it anyway, because it would "remove micro".
Yes, and no.
The only way in which Stasis field removes micro is by making part of your army un-attack-able, unable to attack and un-move-able. On the flip side of this it actually promotes micro for the rest of your army as you suddenly have less units to control for a short period of time and they become more valuable. Having less units to control also means you can control them more precisely.
And yes, it was replaced by Vortex however it's a pretty well known fact that Vortex needs to be changed simply because of the role it plays in SC2. It's essentially a coin-toss spell, where either the Protoss wins the engagement convincingly or still gets crushed by a superior army.
On October 18 2012 11:00 StarVconvoY wrote: Oh the Oracle. I'm also glad this is changing. There is nothing like playing against another Protoss in unranked and thinking, "This isn't doing anything, is this?" about Entomb.
Probably a .001% chance Blizz would see this, but it's worth mentioning to see what you all think: How about a spell that takes a second to cast that cloaks/mind controls an enemy unit. After 5 or 8 seconds, it uncloaks does AOE damage (45) centered around it and returns under the enemy's control. If the unit is killed before it decloaks, no explosion.
This improves upon Entomb... -This would mean a more permanent threat to mineral lines. -Similar to the detection needed for battling Widow Mines. -Micro intensive (you can see the blur of a worker that's been phased and run the heck away!) -A way to break siege lines with heavy units
Problems -its yet another aoe for protoss. -If you controlled an enemy caster, it wouldn't be able to use spells- that'd be way to good. -very good anti-air (mutalisks)
Where do I go in the beta forums to post this, lol?
Right now all three spells on the Oracle sucks!! everything but entomb is a recycled ability that was taken away from another unit. Those didn't work then they don't work now.
Lets get some new exciting abilities. Cloaking field wink wink
Easy. Replace Entomb with an ability, called something Protossy like Quantum Drag or Gravity Well that does decent aoe damage to units in it's area of effect that are moving. To counter, opponent has to stop the units or try and move out of aoe but take some damage. Hurts/kills workers (maybe two casts to kill), stops mining time for duration if opponent chooses to not move out of aoe. Aoe has to be 2 or so.
Give oracles recall. Make the radius small or put a cap on the number of units, idc, but having more recalls to use would make every PvX matchup better. Warp prisms are good, but you have to sacrifice all but 4 slots worth of units so it's not as worth it to harass with more expensive units (colossus, archon).
Give soft detection back to revelation. That was a really cool ability.
Not sure about the third spell. Maybe some channeled healing spell or something?
always disappointed in people saying things like "whoa blizz listens"
this is NOT the first time blizzard has shown they listen! i dont understand, with all these "sc2 dying" threads, with so many ppl saying things like blizzard doesnt listen - they always do, they always have. they might be fucking slow but that's another matter
anyways, it took them a while to say they agree with the uncoolness of entomb and stuff (or is this simply the first "official" statement they've made of it?), but am glad this is finally announced, they need to fix things up ASAP or else people may look at beta now and think hots will be released like that
Actually, I have a cute idea for another utility spell:
Undeploy
Undeploys units in a small area (as large as an EMP or PSI-Storm). That means: - unburrows any Zerg unit, for instance swarm hosts, hidden infestors, zerglings denying a nexus - unburrows spider mines - unsieges tanks
This spell is, for instance, usefull to apply before attacking a position that is secured by "siege" weapons like tanks, mines, swarm hosts. The enemy can position his deployed units more carefully (instead in a blob), investing more APM, to make the effects of this spell weaker. This spell can also be used to feign an attack or to simply force the enemy into using some APM for redeploying.
Maybe some effect on other units can be added, too.
Edit: For instance: - cancel guardian shields - uncloak cloaked terran units (they can be immediately recloaked by hitting the cloak-button) - prevent some spells like strike cannon or yamato cannon, which need some time to be cast (the effect is cancelled if undeploy hits during the casting period).
yeah blizzard even scrapped their whole bnet2 because the community wanted it and had to work with an unfinished platform. and got alot of critique after that. I am just so glad we don't have BBoxLive. Entomb was a funny ability, but really didn't scaled well with better control. Everyone can que up drops, but can they control all of them to optimize the damage. But at the end it overlaps with Phoenix and Prism way to much. And double Phoenix was really fun combined with Energize. But all the cool abilities that would fit the oracle are already on other units sadly. I really dislike that they want to add another air harassment unit, while there are 2 already there. But if they really want a harassment spellcaster that does no direct damage. They will have to make a channeling ability. The caster will have to stay within a certain range around its aim to block it constantly and has to avoid anti air. But at the end it will be just the same as the Phoenix. But maybe they plan on changing the Phoenix ability already, so its becomes a better counter to mutas, which would be horrible and remove both units from the matchup and the phoenix everywhere ... and it is one of the most control needy units, so i hope they don't.
On October 18 2012 09:46 SarcasmMonster wrote: So vague. Let's give them suggestions
I propose a Lightning shield (from WC3) + Defensive matrix hybrid spell. A single Zealot infused with Lightning-shield-matrix in the mineral line would be so awesome Promotes small group tactics.
1. We agree with our community that Entomb is not a spectator friendly ability because it's so easy to execute and is targeted at only 1 location (minerals).
At least they're catching on.
I love your idea. Can be good in a lot of situation, makes gateway / sg viable for protoss against the swarm or bioballs instead of robo OR ht. Since Ligthning field would make chargelosts very strong against marines & zerglings with some micro from protoss player It would be very cool !
Yes please please don't keep void siphon. And entomb wasn't that bad but I'm all for removing it if it is replaced by something that is rewarding for players that can utilize it well. I'm very happy they are listening to the community and fixing the oracle up. I LOVE revelation how it is, though I agree with the above, if the oracle cannot give some sort of temporary detection, then there should be some other way to detect. Right now I feel Observers, especially with the new necessities for detection in HotS either can't be on the robo or can't be our only form of mobile detection, it makes us wayy too limited to taking a robotics path.
On October 18 2012 15:51 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: always disappointed in people saying things like "whoa blizz listens"
this is NOT the first time blizzard has shown they listen! i dont understand, with all these "sc2 dying" threads, with so many ppl saying things like blizzard doesnt listen - they always do, they always have. they might be fucking slow but that's another matter
anyways, it took them a while to say they agree with the uncoolness of entomb and stuff (or is this simply the first "official" statement they've made of it?), but am glad this is finally announced, they need to fix things up ASAP or else people may look at beta now and think hots will be released like that
The Oracle should be able to mine minerals very quickly, like a mule. But, unlike the mule, it gathers only 25% minerals but removes 100% of gathered minerals from the patch. Like, every tick the patch loses 100 minerals and the oracles gets 25. This is to make sure that you want to gather at the opponent's mineral patches and not at your own. Also, there should be a visible counter that shows how many minerals the oracle already got, with a maximum of ~500. This way the harassing players has to decide if he wants to keep gathering even though the enemy army might approach to kill the oracle before it get return the minerals to thee nexus. A returning oracle with low hp and a lot of minerals can result in a lot of exciting moments.
On October 18 2012 17:27 Grummler wrote: The Oracle should be able to mine minerals very quickly, like a mule. But, unlike the mule, it gathers only 25% minerals but removes 100% of gathered minerals from the patch. Like, every tick the patch loses 100 minerals and the oracles gets 25. This is to make sure that you want to gather at the opponent's mineral patches and not at your own. Also, there should be a visible counter that shows how many minerals the oracle already got, with a maximum of ~500. This way the harassing players has to decide if he wants to keep gathering even though the enemy army might approach to kill the oracle before it get return the minerals to thee nexus. A returning oracle with low hp and a lot of minerals can result in a lot of exciting moments.
One problem... Why wouldn't you just go to an expansion that the enemy hasn't taken yet (but is clearly THEIR expansion) and mine from that? You'd have close to zero risk and you'd get free money and harassment.
wow very nice to hear entombed is gone. it was so boring and easy to do. void siphon has to go also.
give the oracle their anti-static-defense spell from the alpha back. that in combination with a new harrassment spell opens up a lot of strategies and increases the skill to do it and defend it.
I think it would be really cool to give the oracle a lockdown type ability that disables a unit from moving, attacking and casting spells, this spell would be channeled by the oracle preventing it from using any other ability or moving away. This would add a really cool dynamic to a lot of match ups an enemy would have to choose either to try and focus down the oracles in order to free locked down units or wait out the timer and focus on the army. As units do a lot of damage in starcraft 2 the ability to take important units out of the battle field for a short time would be a useful and essential tool in the protoss arsenal.
On October 18 2012 18:49 ReMaiN13 wrote: I think it would be really cool to give the oracle a lockdown type ability that disables a unit from moving, attacking and casting spells, this spell would be channeled by the oracle preventing it from using any other ability or moving away. This would add a really cool dynamic to a lot of match ups an enemy would have to choose either to try and focus down the oracles in order to free locked down units or wait out the timer and focus on the army. As units do a lot of damage in starcraft 2 the ability to take important units out of the battle field for a short time would be a useful and essential tool in the protoss arsenal.
And it could be awesome in PvP Collosi wars if it was effective against massive units
On October 18 2012 18:49 ReMaiN13 wrote: I think it would be really cool to give the oracle a lockdown type ability that disables a unit from moving, attacking and casting spells, this spell would be channeled by the oracle preventing it from using any other ability or moving away. This would add a really cool dynamic to a lot of match ups an enemy would have to choose either to try and focus down the oracles in order to free locked down units or wait out the timer and focus on the army. As units do a lot of damage in starcraft 2 the ability to take important units out of the battle field for a short time would be a useful and essential tool in the protoss arsenal.
And it could be awesome in PvP Collosi wars if it was effective against massive units
Yea and not only that but it would allow other styles to be used vs colossi such as zealot archon because with the oracle you could completely shut down the colossi long enough to kill the supporting army making pvp more varied
An idea on rebalancing the risk/reward, cost/benefit of the entomb spell.
1. Change entomb to affect singular patches, and let workers continue trying to mine from it. Basically it "infects" the patch rather than cover it up. 2. Have the patch damage workers that try to mine from it, while keeping those that doesn't touch it unharmed. 3. Make it a silent effect which won't alert the opponent, like DTs in BW.
Essentially, having a sizable number oracles have a huge potential on decimating mineral lines quickly while being a huge risk since they're pretty useless otherwise. It'll also punish oversaturated bases when workers try "rebalancing" the saturation by turning to the infected patch.
They are just so slow on the entomb thing.... There are a lot of feedback on the entomb every since it was introduce. It is so boring to watch. Now, 6 patches into beta, they realize the community is right. Anyway, going to stop bashing them for that. Good thing is they realize now and shows that they are willing to listen.
I have an idea for Oracle spell: Void Blast It cost 20 mana and can be autocasted (ON/OFF). It deals 80 damage and 20 splash damage (can be different of course). It has the power of reaver and mobility of mutalisk (or reaver in shuttle). What makes it specific it costs mana. So you strategically spend its mana and cant just attack random buildings.
On October 18 2012 18:49 ReMaiN13 wrote: I think it would be really cool to give the oracle a lockdown type ability that disables a unit from moving, attacking and casting spells, this spell would be channeled by the oracle preventing it from using any other ability or moving away. This would add a really cool dynamic to a lot of match ups an enemy would have to choose either to try and focus down the oracles in order to free locked down units or wait out the timer and focus on the army. As units do a lot of damage in starcraft 2 the ability to take important units out of the battle field for a short time would be a useful and essential tool in the protoss arsenal.
And it could be awesome in PvP Collosi wars if it was effective against massive units
Colossi Wars won't exist when people start actively using Tempests for this exact reason. They do 65 damage vs Massive with the Upgrade. Thats the equivalent of an Immortal with +3 plus they fly, have 15 range, and are the same supply as Immortals.
Going Colossi when you know your opponent is would be a horrible option. Instead the Tempest will act as the Viking or Corrupter of PvP but they have the added benefit of being able to attack ground. They will also deal exact damage vs Archons and Carriers so expect them to become fairly common in PvP.
What about making an upgrade for the Oracle that gives it the ability to drop to the ground (a la vikings) and act sort of like the reaver? Make it slow while on the ground like the reaver, and normal speed in the air. It's sort of like the old days reaver micro, makes the oracle good for midgame harass, and, you know, other stuff. The attack might have to be something besides scarabs due to the improved pathing, but I think it would be an exciting unit.
I'm so glad that entomb is removed. This spell is utterly boring to use and difficult to find the sweet spot. Not even talking about the skill ceiling of using an oracle to harass, which is none (shiftclicks is all you ever need for this).
The default would be to base it on the arbiter. Although it is interesting reading through the abilities from bw and warcraft 3.
They could expand on the idea of a phase shift, which could be cast on your own on your opponents units and it means they do not take damage/are not affected by spells and also can not attack/cast spells/mine. It allows unit to escape things like fungal as well as having many other interesting uses. It does the same thing as stasis field except the units can still move but not do anything else.
I hope the replacement spell of entomb lets the oracle actually kill workers quickly, like a hellion drop, stimmed marine drop, baneling drop etc.
Protoss is lacking a lot in this regard (especially since dts require a lot of tech too and are going to be harder to use due to faster detection) and since the stargate + oracle is a huge investment early on and the oracle can't even help out in fights (unlike medivac drop who can help to fight for instance) it should be able to kill workers quickly. Only by actually killing workers long time damage is guaranteed. Every time you don't have already the right units and right amount in position to defend a drop you need to pull workers for like 30sec already anyways + you have the ability to kill workers and/or tech. Entomb only threatened lost mining time.
On October 18 2012 13:21 Skyro wrote: Ok... call me crazy here... but why not make the Oracle... A FLYING REAVER. Ok, don't get your panties in a bunch, here me out. First of all the Reaver was universally loved in SC1, and any type of predecessor, spiritual or otherwise, will be received positively from the community.
But let's examine why the Reaver was so FUN TO WATCH for casuals, as from the post Blizz is clearly paying attention to spectator friendliness: 1) Did BIG TIME damage, which created tension 2) Was flukey, thus created even MORE tension 3) The ability to micro reaver/shuttle was an artform, and thus enjoyable to watch for competitive players as well
Of course the reaver/shuttle dynamic is lost if it is just put onto one unit, and there is also the balance concern with adding a reaver-like attack unit into a protoss deathball. Both these issues can be solved, and the spiritual predecessor of the reaver can remain intact by making it so that the attack is more effective at closer ranges. This can be done in many ways, such as a slow movement rate of the projectile, a failure rate the farther it is launched (e.g. random pathing like the reaver scarabs), etc. so if it is noticed it can be dodged with proper micro which creates this tension. But in a normal battle the oracle could just get instantly sniped since it would have to get too close to the enemy to use the skill.
I think its a great idea to add a flying reaver xD About the concern of the protoss "deathball" the zerg one is stronger and they are getting more unit to complement it so why doesnt protoss get some more units to add in it :D? And give terran a unit to not make them feel left out
On October 18 2012 15:51 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: always disappointed in people saying things like "whoa blizz listens"
this is NOT the first time blizzard has shown they listen! i dont understand, with all these "sc2 dying" threads, with so many ppl saying things like blizzard doesnt listen - they always do, they always have. they might be fucking slow but that's another matter
anyways, it took them a while to say they agree with the uncoolness of entomb and stuff (or is this simply the first "official" statement they've made of it?), but am glad this is finally announced, they need to fix things up ASAP or else people may look at beta now and think hots will be released like that
What they really mean when they say Blizzard does or doesn't listen is "They do(n't) listen to MEEEEEE!"
In my opinion it might be cool if they gave the oracle an ability like "consume" from the viper. With the change that you may only consume your opponents units and/or buildings. That way there would be a motivation for the oracle to stay around and harras to gain more energy for casting a second spell rather then flying away right after casting an entombed. Also the "oracles consume" should allow it to kill workers in a reasonable time ( maybe the dps of an un-charged void ray or slightly less) If energize comes back into hots tho - it should not be able to be casted on the oracle, cause that would obviously destroy that idea.
On October 18 2012 11:00 StarVconvoY wrote: Oh the Oracle. I'm also glad this is changing. There is nothing like playing against another Protoss in unranked and thinking, "This isn't doing anything, is this?" about Entomb.
Probably a .001% chance Blizz would see this, but it's worth mentioning to see what you all think: How about a spell that takes a second to cast that cloaks/mind controls an enemy unit. After 5 or 8 seconds, it uncloaks does AOE damage (45) centered around it and returns under the enemy's control. If the unit is killed before it decloaks, no explosion.
This improves upon Entomb... -This would mean a more permanent threat to mineral lines. -Similar to the detection needed for battling Widow Mines. -Micro intensive (you can see the blur of a worker that's been phased and run the heck away!) -A way to break siege lines with heavy units
Problems -its yet another aoe for protoss. -If you controlled an enemy caster, it wouldn't be able to use spells- that'd be way to good. -very good anti-air (mutalisks)
Where do I go in the beta forums to post this, lol?
So, you want to be able to take an enemy unit out of combat for 5-8 seconds? Think about what this will do to early game small group battles...
My Idea would be: - to give Oracle the Void Siphon at a lower cost(no initial cost but a energy drain) - a pretty high range( maybe 7 would be good) and it should be allowed to fly everywhere in that 7 radius to "dodge" the defenders like marines etc. - (Maybe a charge system like Voidrays would be appropriate)
So a good player would dodge for quite sometimes until the player reacts (defender has a potential to deny it quite a bit with his own micro) and therefore charge the Void Siphon and make more cash. A bad player would a) die instantly b) leave fast and therefore gets less cash but I would work in low leagues fine because the defender needs around the same amount of micro as the attacker.
On October 18 2012 11:00 StarVconvoY wrote: Oh the Oracle. I'm also glad this is changing. There is nothing like playing against another Protoss in unranked and thinking, "This isn't doing anything, is this?" about Entomb.
Probably a .001% chance Blizz would see this, but it's worth mentioning to see what you all think: How about a spell that takes a second to cast that cloaks/mind controls an enemy unit. After 5 or 8 seconds, it uncloaks does AOE damage (45) centered around it and returns under the enemy's control. If the unit is killed before it decloaks, no explosion.
This improves upon Entomb... -This would mean a more permanent threat to mineral lines. -Similar to the detection needed for battling Widow Mines. -Micro intensive (you can see the blur of a worker that's been phased and run the heck away!) -A way to break siege lines with heavy units
Problems -its yet another aoe for protoss. -If you controlled an enemy caster, it wouldn't be able to use spells- that'd be way to good. -very good anti-air (mutalisks)
Where do I go in the beta forums to post this, lol?
So, you want to be able to take an enemy unit out of combat for 5-8 seconds? Think about what this will do to early game small group battles...
I guess they deserve props for their willingness to at least change the new units. I don't care how long and laborious the beta is (I'm guessing this will be some sort of record by the time it's done; at least I hope it will), I just want the finished product to be good.
An idea to accomplish what they want would be to make entomb a channeled ability, that could either block minerals or neutralize a building for an indefinite time (until the defender deals with them or you run out of mana).
Not the best idea in the world I guess :p But at least you'd need to maneuver the unit through defenses. You would split them, target different things to make it harder to deal with them.
On October 18 2012 11:00 StarVconvoY wrote: Oh the Oracle. I'm also glad this is changing. There is nothing like playing against another Protoss in unranked and thinking, "This isn't doing anything, is this?" about Entomb.
Probably a .001% chance Blizz would see this, but it's worth mentioning to see what you all think: How about a spell that takes a second to cast that cloaks/mind controls an enemy unit. After 5 or 8 seconds, it uncloaks does AOE damage (45) centered around it and returns under the enemy's control. If the unit is killed before it decloaks, no explosion.
This improves upon Entomb... -This would mean a more permanent threat to mineral lines. -Similar to the detection needed for battling Widow Mines. -Micro intensive (you can see the blur of a worker that's been phased and run the heck away!) -A way to break siege lines with heavy units
Problems -its yet another aoe for protoss. -If you controlled an enemy caster, it wouldn't be able to use spells- that'd be way to good. -very good anti-air (mutalisks)
Where do I go in the beta forums to post this, lol?
So, you want to be able to take an enemy unit out of combat for 5-8 seconds? Think about what this will do to early game small group battles...
Graviton Beam (Edit: Spelling)
You are comparing a channeled ability that takes your own 150/100 unit out of the battle with a fire-and-forget "stun" from a 150/150 unit that has added functionality (read - retreat, scouting, using other abilities) during the duration.
On October 18 2012 09:46 SarcasmMonster wrote: So vague. Let's give them suggestions
I propose a Lightning shield (from WC3) + Defensive matrix hybrid spell. A single Zealot infused with Lightning-shield-matrix in the mineral line would be so awesome Promotes small group tactics.
1. We agree with our community that Entomb is not a spectator friendly ability because it's so easy to execute and is targeted at only 1 location (minerals).
At least they're catching on.
I quite like this direction. As a Zerg I would hate to play against that, which is probably a good sign.
Oracle should live up to its name and help the Protoss to see things and assist in map awareness. How about:
- Keep Revelation - 2nd ability that when turned on gives the Toss player vision around the Oracle equal to that of a watch tower. Cost a small amount of energy to activate and uses energy while active (like cloak). - 3rd ability that Sends out a detection 'ping' that reaches the same radius as a Terran sensor tower and shows mini-map blips for every unit in range (including cloaked/burrowed units). Lasts for a few seconds only and costs energy to cast.
I think these abilities would greatly assist the Protoss without overlapping the functions of the observer too much.
ill Omens, 50 energy: target area; units in the area have their movement reduced by 99% for 2 seconds, they then regain 33% of there movement speed each second until the spell wares off (for a 5 seconds total duration of the spell).
Versatile spell that offers strong support to the army and some harass (can be used to slow down mineral and gas income a little)
Void Syphon now syphons energy from the target, can leach energy from enemy orbitals/nexii/queens as well as units to give some more army usage and means too harass while staying worker friendly.
Finally. The trouble is even if they make the oracle better/more interesting, it will still build from the SG which is a dedicated harass tech path. Either there needs to be a respectable combat unit on SG tech or the oracle needs to build from the robo.
On October 19 2012 00:43 kcdc wrote: Finally. The trouble is even if they make the oracle better/more interesting, it will still build from the SG which is a dedicated harass tech path. Either there needs to be a respectable combat unit on SG tech or the oracle needs to build from the robo.
Maybe the 3rd ability could be something that would help it support your army in a fight. Some people suggested a healing ability, which might be an interesting direction to look at. I think an aoe healing might work if it isn't too powerful. Make it affect an area rather than units, to make it more interesting in terms of positioning, to make it more interesting to retreat with damaged units, etc.
Let void siphon only target cc/nexus/hatcheries, and instead of doing damage to gain minerals, have it steal half of all resources returned to that base while it's channeling.
Just make a flying reaver and you will make everyone happy !! I know give the oracle an overcharge ability It takes 1-3 (balance) casting time and it will make damage over area. The idea is that it can destroy enemy workers if you are not aware of it Doesnt stack in deadballs because the AoE is around the oracle and they can easily be killed when close to enemy deadball or dodge I am such a good progammer xD
On October 19 2012 00:43 kcdc wrote: Finally. The trouble is even if they make the oracle better/more interesting, it will still build from the SG which is a dedicated harass tech path. Either there needs to be a respectable combat unit on SG tech or the oracle needs to build from the robo.
Maybe the 3rd ability could be something that would help it support your army in a fight. Some people suggested a healing ability, which might be an interesting direction to look at. I think an aoe healing might work if it isn't too powerful. Make it affect an area rather than units, to make it more interesting in terms of positioning, to make it more interesting to retreat with damaged units, etc.
Except that what you get from the other tech paths which allows you to do something is a *damage* buff. This is needed because the only protoss unit which actually deals any significant damage is also the one you can most easily run away from. Thus, when the Colossus or Templar come out, Protoss can breath easier, because they can both deal and take damage. AoE healing just means protoss can take more damage (and not much more if your opponent is focusing fire). AoE healing also comes with the problem of likely being overpowered if used on units which deal high damage (like the colossus) to make them units which can stand by themselves (since they can also take high damage).
I'd much prefer something which did damage (but wasn't too good against marines/hydras), which amplified the damage of gateway units (preferably not en masse to avoid the gateway/colossus/oracle deathball), which gave zealots a higher range to their attack, or which made photon cannons more usable.
Alternatively, as I suggested in the lockdown thread, a unit which could do an AE slow or immobilize might be nice (though you might have to be careful of immobilizing things like vikings and corruptors to prevent abuse - maybe targetting ground only?
On October 19 2012 00:43 kcdc wrote: Finally. The trouble is even if they make the oracle better/more interesting, it will still build from the SG which is a dedicated harass tech path. Either there needs to be a respectable combat unit on SG tech or the oracle needs to build from the robo.
Building from the Robo might be neat. You probably saw my response to the "respectable combat unit" part in the other thread - I won't repost here, but basically it's really, really hard to have a unit which is actually good at thwarting early game armies and flies - since a lot of early game armies have the basic ground to air unit in it.
my 3rd spell: -phase shift that cost 25 energy, it makes a FF (with HP and a timer) on the structure that is targeted and it can be broken by the enemy units. -the targeted structure can't attack, move, produce, research, detect, cast skills, etc until the FF is destroyed.
the skill can be used to: -help units to harass bases that are only protected by static defense. -great synergy with phoenix harass. -deny detection from OC or static defense for a short time. -harass the enemy gas income. -delay upgrades. -delay tech. -no use in deathball.
the FF's HP and timer can be adjusted till balance is achieved. would recommend starting with 100HP/10s
Void Siphon - STEALS minerals from enemy stockpile and adds to your own. Castable on enemy buildings and able to move while casting, however movement is slowed by 50%.
Distort Space - Emits a powerful wave of force, in which all projectiles caught in its radius gets slowed down by 75%, allowing the player to avoid them if fast enough. Instant damage such as marine attacks will also be slowed to be caught in this force too. Melee attacks remain the same even within the distortion.
Black Hole - Targets a small radius in which all units caught in the black hole, will be slowed down by 50%.
Regenerator - Summons a pillar of energy which creates a medium sized circle, in which all units will slowly regenerate their health (not shields). This also will heal hostile terran and zerg units, therfore creating a "point of interest area" which opponents may fight over, and which may backfire on the Protoss who summoned the pillar.
Preservation - Teleports 1 friendly unit to the nearest Nexus
Soul Link - Links the health and shields of all nearby units, in which they all take equal damage from incoming damage. This will ultimately make each individual unit survive longer, but may result in them all dying simultaneously.
Glide - Suspends a small radius of friendly units into the air, allowing ground units to temporarily fly and move as a flying unit would. Last 10 seconds and breaks on damage taken. Melee units may not attack from the air (including enemy aircrafts), however ranged units may continue to shoot as per usual.
Surge - Summons a small totem-like object which pulses every few seconds. Each pulse will heal each unit in its radius by 10% of its total health. Also heals enemy units if close enough. The totem will pulse 5 times, once every 3 seconds, however after the full elapsed time (15 seconds), the totem will violently explode from an oversurge of energy - dealing 100 damage to any nearby unit including friendlies. The totem changes color after each pulse so that players are aware of how long they have left.
How about entomb is renamed to "encrust". Cast on single mineral patches it creates a crust of 200 fake minerals that generate no income when mined. The crust can be destroyed or mined to access the underlying mineral patch again.Affected mineral patches have a green kryptonite like green glow!
My random idea for new Oracle ability to replace entomb I thought of while in the shower:
Name: Dimensional Warp (or something like that) Energy: 75-100
Two options for targeting: 1) can be an AOE attack underneath the Oracle with a rather small radius, or 2) single target ability
Description: Warps a unit into a void dimension for x seconds (proportional to targeted unit supply?). Cannot attack/use abilities (like mine) in the primary dimension. Can be used on friendly units to allow them to attack enemy units in the void dimension.
Warped units can still be seen but are put under a purplish hue
Replaces mothership vortex ability
Too OP? Sorry not 100% sure on the numbers. I was thinking an AOE attack might be good to use on workers but could be too OP for CC'ing engagements; which is why I stuck in the line about the duration being proportional to the unit's supply. Perhaps a damage over time effect in the warped state which would kill a worker in one hit. Targeting onto friendly units adds skill/micro by allowing one to control which units engage which.
On October 18 2012 13:15 RifleCow wrote: I would like it if the oracle were to remove detection from buildings for a short period of time.
Also, something that would be crazy but might be interesting to try out would be a spell that you cast onto a unit such that all damage done to that unit becomes splash damage in a certain radius around the target.
With these two changes the oracle becomes the super utility unit that is pretty much useless by itself but when combined with other things becomes incredibly powerful. For instance an oracle + dt harass would mean the shutting down of turrets and spore colonies so your dts would be much better. Or oracle + pheonix harass could have the spell cast on overlords or mutas making the pheonix able to psi harass as well as take care of mutas. Bad idea, good idea?
I like both of those ideas... very unique and helps open up late game options (and is non-deathball) when every base has tons of defense. The anti detection thing sounds like a weaker version of disruption web, which is fairly appropriate. The splash option would need a lot of testing and tweaking, but should be doable. It allows opening oracle an option, and not a complete risk.
Why not just give Oracle a delayed explosion ability? You target an area of the ground and 1-2 seconds later it blows up (kinda in the same spirit as HSM or the original version of the widow mine).
Pros: high damage possible to workers, but can be defended by quick reflexes Cons: not good enough in high level games?
...or, honestly, forget about the Oracle for now. Focus on making other Protoss units more interesting (an improved Carrier might be more interesting than the Tempest, and replacing the Collosus or another a-move unit might be good as well), then after making these drastic changes, see what Protoss is missing and make the Oracle fill the gap
Am I the only one that feels a bit lost on how you are supposed to make the oracle pose a constant threat while it has only energy based attacks? I mean, it is harmless for like two minutes once out of energy. Feels like thats the first thing they should look into.
On October 19 2012 07:44 Fenris420 wrote: Am I the only one that feels a bit lost on how you are supposed to make the Infestor pose a constant threat while it has only energy based attacks? I mean, it is harmless for like two minutes once out of energy.
I don't think being energy-limited is a problem as long as you can do a great deal of burst harass with the energy.
On October 19 2012 07:44 Fenris420 wrote: Am I the only one that feels a bit lost on how you are supposed to make the oracle pose a constant threat while it has only energy based attacks? I mean, it is harmless for like two minutes once out of energy. Feels like thats the first thing they should look into.
More than that is the effectiveness of direct combat/harassing spells that early in the game - if all the Oracle requires is Core and Stargate. A spell that has direct combat utility coupled with Gateway units at that point in the game may be problematic in the form of direct attacks. The same may also apply if the spells have direct support utility. Gateway units with 2 combat support units in the form of Sentry and Oracle could be deadly. Although, I suppose, making the spell energy intensive may be one way around these concerns. That and making the spell have some sort of set up giving adequate response time.
It all feels overly complicated, IMO. Personally, I'd rather they shelve the Oracle for the nonce and buff SG tech,
I'd like to see an aura, centered around the Oracle similar to guardian shield (though smaller), that simply does damage to ground and air within the radius. Nothing complicated, you turn it on and for a little while the Oracle is a flying little ball of pain. I'd also rather see it be reasonable damage and 25 energy, than crazy high damage and 75 or 100 energy.
The Oracle would still be super low hp, and the radius would be low. So it'd be of no use whatsoever in a deathball, and really of limited use in a straight up fight against any unit able to return fire--a single queen or a few marines could kill it easily. At the same time, it could be very dangerous if flown over a mineral line (and its not like the workers can really escape since the Oracle is faster). it could hunt overlords and medivacs. If the energy cost was low, it could remain a consistent threat.
It would fulfill Blizard's goal of a primarily harass unit that doesn't add to the deathball. It would threaten consistently, and in a much more serious way than entomb. It would help against roach and marauder all-ins that skimp on anti-air, and give Toss an AOE option prior to T3, albeit one that would require tactical cleverness to use in an engagement without losing the Oracle almost immediately.
On October 19 2012 07:44 Fenris420 wrote: Am I the only one that feels a bit lost on how you are supposed to make the Infestor pose a constant threat while it has only energy based attacks? I mean, it is harmless for like two minutes once out of energy.
I don't think being energy-limited is a problem as long as you can do a great deal of burst harass with the energy.
I guess you are right, but then does that mean that the oracle does its intended role when it isn't attacking? I can't put my finger on it but there is something about the whole reasoning that doesn't make sense to me. Maybe im overanalyzing.
Prison Spell Single target spell. Disables unit inside which auto-attacks prison. Prison has 80 hit-points and one armour (e.g. workers suck at getting out). Other units can attack it too requiring micro. In big engagements it isn't really useful, but in small engagements opponents may have limited DPS options to kill quickly.
Channel Entomb Spell Target a mineral patch. Opponent cannot mine while entombed. Oracle mines as if it were 3 probes. Not economically useful as Oracle costs more than a probe, but combined with mineral theft works out ok.
Blinding Spell Target a unit, which goes blind and Oracle gains the units vision which also gains detection. Good for disabling detection for DT harass. Opponent can micro your new detector away in battles.
Single Unit Recall Recalls a single friendly unit to the Oracle. In small skirmishes can be used to save dying units. Can be used for some harassment.
I have a small suggestion. Kind like a taint ability. It would target a small number of units that would look like enemies to other friendlies (without losing control). Without proper micro, your own units would also attack those (giving them higher priority to force action on the enemy rather than keep on a-moving), yet with good target-firing and control, the penalty would be greatly diminished without actually making it free.
It would be pretty cool on something like a broodlord ball accompanied with either infesters or corruptors. In the first case, the infesters would get tainted and broodlings would attack them unless redirecting them to the enemy lines or taking them out to an area where no friendlies can attack rewarding positioning. In the second one, tainting broodlords would cause idle corruptors to attack broods unless moved away or targeting them to something else. Another example would be a line of minerals covered with static defense. Just taint the workers and SD does the rest.
You can play with energy, area and distance of casting to balance it and it serves both the army (but not in large numbers) and harassing.
Death Aura I like awesomoecalypse's idea of having the oracle itself have an aura that damages anything it touches. What an elegant solution to the problem... forces the oracle to remain solo, keeps it out of the deathball, but gives it real harass potential that requires micro. Bravo!
Destroy Mineral Patches It would also be cool if Oracles could destroy mineral patches. Currently, all the economic harass is focused on the workers. But imagine being able to destroy the minerals at a natural or a third before the enemy can expand there. It would be devastating and it would add an interesting dimension to the game.
On October 19 2012 08:44 awesomoecalypse wrote: I'd like to see an aura, centered around the Oracle similar to guardian shield (though smaller), that simply does damage to ground and air within the radius. Nothing complicated, you turn it on and for a little while the Oracle is a flying little ball of pain. I'd also rather see it be reasonable damage and 25 energy, than crazy high damage and 75 or 100 energy.
The Oracle would still be super low hp, and the radius would be low. So it'd be of no use whatsoever in a deathball, and really of limited use in a straight up fight against any unit able to return fire--a single queen or a few marines could kill it easily. At the same time, it could be very dangerous if flown over a mineral line (and its not like the workers can really escape since the Oracle is faster). it could hunt overlords and medivacs. If the energy cost was low, it could remain a consistent threat.
It would fulfill Blizard's goal of a primarily harass unit that doesn't add to the deathball. It would threaten consistently, and in a much more serious way than entomb. It would help against roach and marauder all-ins that skimp on anti-air, and give Toss an AOE option prior to T3, albeit one that would require tactical cleverness to use in an engagement without losing the Oracle almost immediately.
really nice idea. you could also make it do damage vs friendly units too so it definetly cant be used in a deathball since it would hurt your own units too.
it would also be a nice space control unit for protoss since you could use that spell also defensively vs lingrunbys or marinedrops.
you could combine this spell with the alpha spell that let the oracle shut down static defense since otherwise 1 turret/spore/cannon would completely deny harrass which would be lame.
whats nice about this idea is that you would have to actively micro the oracle towards workers. so if the opponent pulls his worker you would have to actively micro the oracle over the worker and since it is an AoE field it would force splitting micro on the worker from the opponent.
if you give the oracle both spells it probably would have to be a bit slower since the opponent couldnt do anything to prevent the harrass which also shouldnt be the case.
On October 19 2012 08:44 awesomoecalypse wrote: I'd like to see an aura, centered around the Oracle similar to guardian shield (though smaller), that simply does damage to ground and air within the radius. Nothing complicated, you turn it on and for a little while the Oracle is a flying little ball of pain. I'd also rather see it be reasonable damage and 25 energy, than crazy high damage and 75 or 100 energy.
The Oracle would still be super low hp, and the radius would be low. So it'd be of no use whatsoever in a deathball, and really of limited use in a straight up fight against any unit able to return fire--a single queen or a few marines could kill it easily. At the same time, it could be very dangerous if flown over a mineral line (and its not like the workers can really escape since the Oracle is faster). it could hunt overlords and medivacs. If the energy cost was low, it could remain a consistent threat.
It would fulfill Blizard's goal of a primarily harass unit that doesn't add to the deathball. It would threaten consistently, and in a much more serious way than entomb. It would help against roach and marauder all-ins that skimp on anti-air, and give Toss an AOE option prior to T3, albeit one that would require tactical cleverness to use in an engagement without losing the Oracle almost immediately.
I still think phase shield was a step in the right direction.
Perhaps a cross between guardian-shield and phase shield would be interesting on the oracle. It could prevent spell effects within it instead of granting armour. Kill the oracle, your EMPs work again. Because it's so fast, it could easily be moved where the shield was needed.
Oracle "latches" down on a mineral patch. It ticks every second for 3 seconds, consuming 10 mineral every second for up to 3 seconds.
When "latched" on mineral patch, it has a 30 energy shield and no hp. When shield is gone it is forced to "unlatch"
When oracle "unlatches" it deals 75 damage ( no idea about this number ) in an area of effect based on number of ticks it gathered. If it unlatches after 3 seconds it deals a large aoe, if it unlatches right after it got to mineral patch it has a very low aoe.
Why I think this is a good idea: - if opponent doesn't react in time ( remove workers from mineral line ) it can deal the full aoe damage thus doing lots of damage.
-if opponent sees it but has no defense he can remove workers.
-Oracle user can choose to unlatch immediately to do instant damage to a small area ( for example killing only the worker closest to mineral patch.
- this spell in conjuction with sentry drop and ff use can trap workers doing massive damage
- if opponent has army to defend he can reduce aoe.
- This spell can be used offensively on army as long as it is close to a patch.
You can defend your own mineral line by latching there in advance and "unlatching" when zergling are in your mineral line for example.
This might be a stupid idea, anyways just giving my 2 cents!
On October 19 2012 08:44 awesomoecalypse wrote: I'd like to see an aura, centered around the Oracle similar to guardian shield (though smaller), that simply does damage to ground and air within the radius. Nothing complicated, you turn it on and for a little while the Oracle is a flying little ball of pain. I'd also rather see it be reasonable damage and 25 energy, than crazy high damage and 75 or 100 energy.
The Oracle would still be super low hp, and the radius would be low. So it'd be of no use whatsoever in a deathball, and really of limited use in a straight up fight against any unit able to return fire--a single queen or a few marines could kill it easily. At the same time, it could be very dangerous if flown over a mineral line (and its not like the workers can really escape since the Oracle is faster). it could hunt overlords and medivacs. If the energy cost was low, it could remain a consistent threat.
It would fulfill Blizard's goal of a primarily harass unit that doesn't add to the deathball. It would threaten consistently, and in a much more serious way than entomb. It would help against roach and marauder all-ins that skimp on anti-air, and give Toss an AOE option prior to T3, albeit one that would require tactical cleverness to use in an engagement without losing the Oracle almost immediately.
Let entombed lock down 1 gas instead. That makes more sense then mineral and will slow down the opponent allot more. Since its 1 target u can boost entombed shield allot and duration forcing the player to deal with it or lose allot of gas income
this is great, the current role of the oracle is really a deadend as harass unit only that has zero impact on fights.
Just make it an interesting caster that has abilities that work well for harass and have some use in fights but don't give it abilities that promote deathball play (for example some defensive AoE ability like it had before). For example I really like the suggestion of some combination of defensive matrix / lightning shield. It buffs defense and does (friendly!) damage to units around it, so you could either use it on your own unit and make sure it's mostly surrounded by enemy units (blink a stalker in etc.) or you could just use it on enemy units (probes, ranged units in a line). It would interact well with other protoss abilities making for cute combo's (trap some roaches with FF, lightning shield one of them OR use it on blink stalkers etc) and would require good micro to be used most effectively. It still would be a fine harass ability, on lower levels just cast on probes at higher levels in combination with other units for example cast on a hallucination.
The revelation imo is utterly boring especially now it doesn't detect anymore but i guess they want to keep it, imo protoss has enough scouting already especially if hallucination is buffed to usefulness but we will see.
A cool single target kill spell would also be cool, for example just some high energy ability that does 500 dmg to one target, crap vs all low food units but very powerful agianst high end stuff like colossi.
Anyway It's good to see blizzard isn't married to their idea's. As long as they are willing to give up on idea's they've spent a lot of time on they will eventually find a good mix of spells that will be fun.
While i know toss needs an effective raider than kills workers, i rather liked emtomb as blizzard actually thought about it because people were already commenting that if all the workers at the mineral field of a base were killed terran and zerg are easily more forgiving as zerg could remax on drones in a single wave and terran has mules what keep up to an entire base anyways. I like the lightning shield idea tho as it would take some really micro if it has a large radius as just running workers would actually do more damage.
As the the oracles battlefield spell it could be something allong the lines of just an small aoe spell that simple restored shields to full health (some like with like the radius of a colloseus and 75-100 energy cost). Shield healing ward i think tho is a better and more fare one; if the oracle has sometime like the prism morph like that casted a shield of sorts that allowed toss units under it to regen in battle at an increase rate while make the oracle invulerable with a slow acceleration afterwards but cancellable that would be just about perfect. That way a toss player would have to decent when to cut the field if he's going to loose an engage or instead loose the oracle if he leaves for the opponent to clean up. Maybe even make it uncontrollable with a cooldown like the beta pheonix overload ability.
It'd be interesting if the Oracle had a combat based ability that could be used in order to harass Probes, but not kill them, for instance a spell that roots or slows unit movement speed could be used in order to prevent units from kiting protoss in the field while slowing workers' ability to gather minerals and causing indirect economic damage. The problem with Entomb is that it has no other utility other than serving as a harassment spell, and if all Entomb is intended to do is stop workers from mining temporarily, then you can stop workers from mining temporary by rooting or slowing their movement instead and have an ability with some duality in combat.
For instance, Time Warp: 75 Energy, 2.5 Radious and all targets within the radious of Time Warp are rooted for 20 seconds.
Guaranteed economic damage vs workers and it'd be an extremely powerful and positional spell in combat.
What the Stargate tech three needs is a powerful unit that can deal with ground units by itself, no more gimmicks. It's already useless in PvT and puts you behind by default in PvZ. Void Ray is terribad, Phoenix is only decent when massed, Carrier and MS are only viable in the very late game.
I still think the best idea would be to rework Entomb into a Stasis Field (removing Vortex). You'd normally throw it on workers, but can also use it in fights. Stasised units aren't completely gone, only until you break the entombing thing. Make it work on friendlies too, so that you will be punished for a bad cast and you can also use it to temporarily save some units from damage (like protecting HTs against mutas).
On October 20 2012 04:18 gedatsu wrote: I still think the best idea would be to rework Entomb into a Stasis Field (removing Vortex). You'd normally throw it on workers, but can also use it in fights. Stasised units aren't completely gone, only until you break the entombing thing. Make it work on friendlies too, so that you will be punished for a bad cast and you can also use it to temporarily save some units from damage (like protecting HTs against mutas).
Way too strong, TBH. With this not only would Protoss be able to split enemy armies in half with Forcefields, they'd also be able to ensure that half of the army cannot do any damage.
(I know it worked in BW, but the Arbiter was a late-game unit and late-game BW did not rely upon deathballs)
On October 20 2012 04:18 gedatsu wrote: I still think the best idea would be to rework Entomb into a Stasis Field (removing Vortex). You'd normally throw it on workers, but can also use it in fights. Stasised units aren't completely gone, only until you break the entombing thing. Make it work on friendlies too, so that you will be punished for a bad cast and you can also use it to temporarily save some units from damage (like protecting HTs against mutas).
Way too strong, TBH. With this not only would Protoss be able to split enemy armies in half with Forcefields, they'd also be able to ensure that half of the army cannot do any damage.
(I know it worked in BW, but the Arbiter was a late-game unit and late-game BW did not rely upon deathballs)
TvP in BW is all about harrassment while building a mech deathball tbh.
A flying reaver sounds pretty awesome. Maybe make it go to ground mode to be able to fire, to balance it a bit? (prism + reaver all in one). Probably too awesome to exist
EDIT : very similar to the "Stasis Field" suggestions earlier.
Make it about the size of forcefield (and can even use same graphic, or thereabouts), traps all units inside the forcefield, making them unable to attack or be attacked for X time. The time would obviously have to be balanced, if a good time cant be established could make it break after being attacked a certain number of times, the number of times could even be a function of how many units are actually trapped inside it.
This would allow it to be used offensively - trapping a few key units in a fight, the ghosts or vikings for instance, Defensively - save your own units that are in danger or slow pushes down as they are moving across map. If its used as time there is no way the length would be long enough for it to be effective harassment, but if its broken by attacks you could lock a base down.
Energy cost, time, size of the AoE is obviously subject to balance but the concept is a good one imo, just wish I could post it on the beta forums.
On October 20 2012 04:18 gedatsu wrote: I still think the best idea would be to rework Entomb into a Stasis Field (removing Vortex). You'd normally throw it on workers, but can also use it in fights. Stasised units aren't completely gone, only until you break the entombing thing. Make it work on friendlies too, so that you will be punished for a bad cast and you can also use it to temporarily save some units from damage (like protecting HTs against mutas).
Way too strong, TBH. With this not only would Protoss be able to split enemy armies in half with Forcefields, they'd also be able to ensure that half of the army cannot do any damage.
(I know it worked in BW, but the Arbiter was a late-game unit and late-game BW did not rely upon deathballs)
Protoss already do that. At least this way, you'd be able to free your units, and not have them splashed to pieces in an instant when they return.
And I thought we wanted to give incentives for people not to use a deathball? That's the reason spells like storm and fungal exist.
How about a skill that target X amount of workers and transfer all income (both mineral and gas) for Y amount of seconds of those workers to the Protoss?
On October 20 2012 04:33 archon256 wrote: Way too strong, TBH. With this not only would Protoss be able to split enemy armies in half with Forcefields, they'd also be able to ensure that half of the army cannot do any damage.
(I know it worked in BW, but the Arbiter was a late-game unit and late-game BW did not rely upon deathballs)
Protoss already do that. At least this way, you'd be able to free your units, and not have them splashed to pieces in an instant when they return.
And I thought we wanted to give incentives for people not to use a deathball? That's the reason spells like storm and fungal exist.
Vortex already exists, so you're compounding the issue by adding a similar spell that this time can be cast by multiple units instead of a single unique one?
I still think Stasis would be too strong, but maybe you're right and it should be tested first.
I feel there needs to be an interesting micro ability with the Oracle that would make it useful for both offense and defensive situations throughout the game and open up new possibilities. Adding forcefields and trying to reapply its original idea is flawed, the whole concept of easy stasis-ish harass would be a step back imo.
I really like the Phoenix's ability to pick up units, I think the Oracle could use a variation of that that actually picks up units and allows you to carry the unit briefly to a different location, approximately a second or so, in the same way phoenix picks up units and then drops it. Unit dropped is left in neutral position. Air unit grabbable. Can grab cloaked units that are visible. This would enable it to keep it's harass abilities, but also open up new ideas and strategies.
This has several micro possibilities. Some ideas: - You could pick up workers and delay slightly and annoyingly, having to make the user micro the worker back to minerals. Even better on gas harrass, forces player to keep tabs. - On an offensive or defensive attack, you could micro a key unit of theirs out of the way in a close battle, or micro one of your units away and save it, like a sentry. - In late game, raises possibility of taking a colossus out of play briefly, taking an ultra or infestor out of the way, or moving a tank or thor to you like a viper. - In conjunction with phoenix, it could move dangerous units like the queen or a stalker out of the way briefly allowing for more phoenix harass. - Allows you to fling units into their bases for harass, or perhaps even speedy high templar/dark templar drops. - Cute plays: can stop harass by using ability to pull incoming harass to your stalkers/defense, or away to buy you time. Also may be able to pull units from xel'naga tower so they lose sight briefly.
Notes - This would mean the oracle would have to be somewhat cheaper to be effective, as it does not do damage and wouldn't be used if it cost as much as it does now or more. - Possibly adjust so it comes out of robo to allow air play. Denying phoenix building time is unacceptable, unless build time of oracle was decreased to approximately same as observer. It needs to be able to come out fast enough to be worthwhile unit to use early mid game. - Unlike Viper,it's range is limited. More micro involved as well as you have to point to location to carry unit.
My thoughts on Oracle abilities....(if you like and have a beta please share on Blizzard, I can't post to the HOTS forum)
Psionic Siphon Drains energy from opposing units/buildings. Energy is converted to the Oracle for other abilities. Can be used to 'steal' energy from Orbitals, Infestors, Medivacs, Ghost, Queens, etc.
Unstable Stasis (Harassment) Places units within a given area (1/2 to 1/3 size of Mineral line) inside individual stasis fields (think 'Maw of the Void'). These stasis fields are destructible but collapse after X seconds destroying units within. (could be just workers, or all non-massive units)
Mobile Shield Generator (Army Support) Recharges shields of nearby units using stored energy (yes, like a medivac). This provides the Oracle with some alternate role usage. OR Mobile Resurrection While cast receive a Stalker for every X units killed. This allows the Oracle to still have a combat support role, while being something different.
Thoughts on in game usage: I think the Unstable Stasis would be exciting to watch, because similar to a storm/baneling drop your waiting to see if the player will react in time to avoid losing their probes. I also see this as being a great distraction as your opponent is now focused on saving his workers leaving you free to attack/drop/etc. I think the Psionic Siphon would work great with Unstable Statis. Cast Unstable Stasis, then charge off his Orbital, then send in some DTS. By the time he frees his workers, you've stolen enough energy that he doesn't have a scan free. The Mobile Shield or Resurrection are my thoughts on how to give the Oracle some sort of role when harassing is no longer viable. Resurrection would fit in nicely with Starcraft lore as Dragoons and now Stalkers (my understanding) are fallen warriors resurrected in mechanical bodies.
I find it hilarious that, even though oracles weren't doing any damage, they were considered overpowered by blizzard because they pinned the enemy army in their base
Tells you just how worthless they want protoss harass to be.
I read an AMAZING idea in another Oracle-related forum that could work as both harass and an offensive ability; let the Oracle teleport enemy units to different locations. The thread suggested it teleport workers to random locations around the map, but I think a better idea (to take out luck mechanics) would be to have the Oracle use energy to plant some sort of timed radius down, then activate a teleporter beneath the Oracle it in a small area that teleports all enemy units to that radius. This spell would be very different from anything else in the game, which I think the game needs to stay fresh and interesting.
It could be used for worker harass - teleporting workers to a place you already have units waiting to kill them (Looper style!), or possibly teleporting key units like HTs/Ghosts/Infestors quickly away from their respective deathballs.
This would be a great way to utilize the spell in very diverse ways, and would be very spectator-friendly, with everyone biting their nails over whether the player could pull off that huge teleport to cripple the other guy's army.
Just my two cents, but I sure would love to see something like this implemented, and would have a blast playing around with it!
On October 21 2012 01:18 SnareSpectre wrote: I read an AMAZING idea in another Oracle-related forum that could work as both harass and an offensive ability; let the Oracle teleport enemy units to different locations. The thread suggested it teleport workers to random locations around the map, but I think a better idea (to take out luck mechanics) would be to have the Oracle use energy to plant some sort of timed radius down, then activate a teleporter beneath the Oracle it in a small area that teleports all enemy units to that radius. This spell would be very different from anything else in the game, which I think the game needs to stay fresh and interesting.
It could be used for worker harass - teleporting workers to a place you already have units waiting to kill them (Looper style!), or possibly teleporting key units like HTs/Ghosts/Infestors quickly away from their respective deathballs.
This would be a great way to utilize the spell in very diverse ways, and would be very spectator-friendly, with everyone biting their nails over whether the player could pull off that huge teleport to cripple the other guy's army.
Just my two cents, but I sure would love to see something like this implemented, and would have a blast playing around with it!
On October 21 2012 01:18 SnareSpectre wrote: I read an AMAZING idea in another Oracle-related forum that could work as both harass and an offensive ability; let the Oracle teleport enemy units to different locations. The thread suggested it teleport workers to random locations around the map, but I think a better idea (to take out luck mechanics) would be to have the Oracle use energy to plant some sort of timed radius down, then activate a teleporter beneath the Oracle it in a small area that teleports all enemy units to that radius. This spell would be very different from anything else in the game, which I think the game needs to stay fresh and interesting.
It's not very different from anything else, in fact it's very similar to Abduct.
I like entomb... for a speedy harass that gets in and out, you aren't gona find much better. I disagree it's boring to watch; entomb can be used very strategically in combination with pressure and it's compelling when that happens.
It's not very different from anything else, in fact it's very similar to Abduct.
The only similarity it shares with abduct is that it moves enemy units from one place to another. Abduct would never be used for harass because it costs too much energy to only hit one unit. The Oracle would have to be directly over the units it plans on relocating, and the teleporting would have to take place within a certain time frame to keep it somewhat balanced. Abduct is a long-range projectile, so you can pull things from outside of harm's way...the Oracle has to be directly on top of units, so it can't just render groups of marines useless without dying. If there was still the threat of overlap, you could just make it not be able to move massive units.
Giving oracle an irradiate spell (SV from sc1) would be epic and could give rise to interesting tactics. But call it ionize
1. Use it to harass mineral lines (eraser technique or individual target) 2. Use it with the army to get rid of important targets like HT/Ghost/Infestors 3. Fight units that clump up (Vikings, broodlords, phoenixes)
This will give a reason to build oracles for the WHOLE game. Another spell that could be added is recharge - charge the shields of nearby units or buildings like a sheild battery from sc1.
Change entomb to be single target, indefinite duration, can target either workers or minerals. Entomb will grant vision as long as it isn't destroyed. Entomb does .5hp/sec DoT to workers. Entomb has the same attack priority as other attacking units (use against bitbybit to suck up marine/mara shots). Reduce Entomb cost to 15-25 energy.
It's not very different from anything else, in fact it's very similar to Abduct.
The only similarity it shares with abduct is that it moves enemy units from one place to another. Abduct would never be used for harass because it costs too much energy to only hit one unit. The Oracle would have to be directly over the units it plans on relocating, and the teleporting would have to take place within a certain time frame to keep it somewhat balanced. Abduct is a long-range projectile, so you can pull things from outside of harm's way...the Oracle has to be directly on top of units, so it can't just render groups of marines useless without dying. If there was still the threat of overlap, you could just make it not be able to move massive units.
Yeah and the only similarity that Brood Lord shares with Guardian from BW is that they're both slow flying zerg units with long range that are created by mutating another zerg flying units. Very different from each other.
You can abduct your own banelings into the enemy's mineral line. You said something about never using it for harass?
On October 21 2012 04:14 Seinken wrote: Change entomb to be single target, indefinite duration, can target either workers or minerals. Entomb will grant vision as long as it isn't destroyed. Entomb does .5hp/sec DoT to workers. Entomb has the same attack priority as other attacking units (use against bitbybit to suck up marine/mara shots). Reduce Entomb cost to 15-25 energy.
Why not make it a spell thats castable on minerals, workers OR ANY OTHER UNIT. Would have many different uses that way and if you can't harrass with it anymore you can use it in a fight to lock down a tank or whatever.
Second, I wouldn't mind a detection ability: When you activate it, the Oracle becomes a detector until you run out of energy or deactivate it.
On October 20 2012 23:22 GoldenH wrote: I find it hilarious that, even though oracles weren't doing any damage, they were considered overpowered by blizzard because they pinned the enemy army in their base
That's the issue with a unit that only does harass and has no combat potential, it needs to be really good at its job, which the Oracle is. Entomb (as of its latest iteration) is a really strong harass (easy, effective, requires a disproportionately strong response from the opposing player), which it needs to be since the Oracle doesn't support army (outside of a few cute tricks). If it was weaker at harassing and didn't support the Protoss army, then it would be pointless to construct it, making the Oracle (as currently designed) a difficult thing to balance and led to its removal.
I'm just gonna throw out some ideas I've had about Oracle abilities.
Void Siphon (my own idea) A single target ability that targets structures. The target structure has its "power" shutdown. During this time if the Oracle remains within a leash range, it will regain energy at a rate of 1% of the target's health per second (this deals no damage to the structure, but it always could if it makes the Oracle more effective). Using it on defensive structures will never result in the Oracle recovering the energy it used up, but you can if you use it on something sturdier.
Void Shroud A small AOE ability, all units and structures (structures can be removed based on balanced) that are caught in the ability (except the Oracle) are treated as cloaked with respect to both players and vice versa (if either player wants to interact with affected units, they need a detector), and units affected by Void Shroud lose their detection for the duration of the ability.
Chrono Shell A small AOE that only affects your own units. All affected units receive a 50% increase in attack (or in the case of workers, mining) rate and movement speed. Units that regenerate receive a 2x bonus to their regeneration rate (Zerg regen, Protoss shield regen, energy regen), and Protoss units also get the out of combat regen wait cut down to 5 seconds out of combat rather than 10. + Show Spoiler [Special Interactions] +
Units with abilties that take place over time - These kinds of abilities have their time to complete cut down in half. Ex. Strike Cannons will take 5 sec to perform (1s set-up:3s attack:1s exit) rather than 10 seconds (2:6:2)
Abilities that last a set time on an affected unit - These kinds of abilities have their time cut in half. Ex. Fungal Growth will only last 2 seconds on an affect target instead of 4, but it's damage will remain the same.
Timed life units - Affected units with timed life will have their timers cut in half for the duration of the ability. Ex. A hallucination will only last 30s instead of 60s.
Warp Beacon ver. 1 The Oracle drops a warp beacon at a location (a temporary structure with health/shields that can be destroyed) and the next time this ability is used the Oracle and all nearby friendly units are warped back to the location of the warp beacon.
Warp Beacon ver. 2 The Oracle attaches a warp beacon to the target. At the cost of a warpgate cooldown (sets a cooldown equivalent to a HT on the warpgate used) a unit with a beacon can be warped back to anywhere with an active power field (1 unit per warpgate).
Prophecy A small AOE that only targets friendly units, all affected ranged units have their range temporarily increased by 2. Units with melee attacks receive no benefit.
Foretell A single target ability that works on structures, this lets the Oracle set the rally point for the affected structure. All units that are produced out of the structure while it is affected will grant vision to the Protoss.
On October 21 2012 03:59 sona wrote: Giving oracle an irradiate spell (SV from sc1) would be epic and could give rise to interesting tactics. But call it ionize
1. Use it to harass mineral lines (eraser technique or individual target) 2. Use it with the army to get rid of important targets like HT/Ghost/Infestors 3. Fight units that clump up (Vikings, broodlords, phoenixes)
This will give a reason to build oracles for the WHOLE game. Another spell that could be added is recharge - charge the shields of nearby units or buildings like a sheild battery from sc1.
It's not very different from anything else, in fact it's very similar to Abduct.
The only similarity it shares with abduct is that it moves enemy units from one place to another. Abduct would never be used for harass because it costs too much energy to only hit one unit. The Oracle would have to be directly over the units it plans on relocating, and the teleporting would have to take place within a certain time frame to keep it somewhat balanced. Abduct is a long-range projectile, so you can pull things from outside of harm's way...the Oracle has to be directly on top of units, so it can't just render groups of marines useless without dying. If there was still the threat of overlap, you could just make it not be able to move massive units.
Yeah and the only similarity that Brood Lord shares with Guardian from BW is that they're both slow flying zerg units with long range that are created by mutating another zerg flying units. Very different from each other.
You can abduct your own banelings into the enemy's mineral line. You said something about never using it for harass?
I'm not concerned with similarities of units from an entirely different game, only the game at hand. Who cares if there is a similarity between a Brood Lord and a Guardian?
And yes, you can abduct banelings into the opponent's mineral line, but saying that is a viable harass option is almost like saying you can use infestors to NP an SCV, then the SCV can tech up to medivacs and marines for harass. It's a round-about way of doing things that would never be effective in an actual game. Why use so much energy on a hive-tech unit to get banelings into someone's mineral line when you can just drop them 4 at a time from an overlord at lair tech?
If you disagree with the idea, I'm cool with it, but there's really no reason to troll.
straight up. should drop a unit, something small, the amount of them it drops depends on how much energy you have. it uses all your energy. this means its a harass unit but not necessarily an all up in your face you better hard counter it unit, meaning you dont want to mass it. any thoughts or editions to this idea?
Blizzard isn't going to implement a new spell on the oracle if it a copy of another unit's spell. I dont see how people are suggesting the oracle should drop or recall/dislocate units, those things are already in the game.
On October 21 2012 04:14 Seinken wrote: Change entomb to be single target, indefinite duration, can target either workers or minerals. Entomb will grant vision as long as it isn't destroyed. Entomb does .5hp/sec DoT to workers. Entomb has the same attack priority as other attacking units (use against bitbybit to suck up marine/mara shots). Reduce Entomb cost to 15-25 energy.
Why not make it a spell thats castable on minerals, workers OR ANY OTHER UNIT. Would have many different uses that way and if you can't harrass with it anymore you can use it in a fight to lock down a tank or whatever.
Second, I wouldn't mind a detection ability: When you activate it, the Oracle becomes a detector until you run out of energy or deactivate it.
If it can be castable on any unit it kind of allows a massing of pure oracle, at least with the changes I proposed. Those are the kinds of things you'd find out through playtesting though
I had a couple ideas for the other thread that got closed.
1. Tribute. Spends X energy to start the ability. Either drains energy until cancelled/ empty or has a set duration. I don't know which would be better. The oracle opens up a small portal inside itself, connected to the supply lines of the army. While the spell is active, the oracle can target workers carrying a resource and steal it from them in addition to doing a small amount of damage to the workers from forcefully removing their cargo. The attack has a short range and a slight delay before the resource is stolen. You can't just shift click a bunch of workers, b/c you probably won't be able to predict exactly which one will be carrying a resource at the moment it reaches the queue. If the target becomes invalid, the whole queue would cancel. You would need to pay attention to which workers you can steal from. Works on gas and minerals.
Fulfills 1) Something that makes use of the fast movement speed of the Oracle It'snot using the speed too much, but the speed would help in getting into the mineral field and out. . 2) Serves as a constant threat to the enemy base until the enemy destroys the Oracle. Allows the oracle to do economic damage, in a way other than just killing workers. You're both gaining resources for yourself and denying the enemy of his resources. It's not just lost mining time, those are resources he can't get back. You would also be damaging the workers with each hit, so repetitive attacks can start taking out the workers.
3) Greater difference between amazing use of the Oracle vs. an average use. Because the oracle can only steal from workers with resources, the player would need to target only workers returning their cargo, while also accounting for the slight delay after the attack is started and the resource is stolen. Though the window is short, there may be lots of windows opening and closing all the time in a saturated field. With good timing and the appropriate attention, a good player can steal a lot more than a poor one.
4) Is more spectator friendly. Spectators can watch a player concentrate on catching as many workers as possible. Because it would require so much concentration, they can watch the really good players steal large amounts in their limited time frame, while simultaneously keeping up whatever else they need to take care of. Also, b/c it's such an involved harass, it gives the player plenty of opportunity to get distracted and miss something else on the map. They can also watch the attacking player's money start going up faster, while the defender's starts slowing down.
Concerns: I don't know if the oracle should steal the full amount, or only a portion of the resources. The attack speed of the ability might be difficult to balance. Either it's way too fast, stealing a large amount of resources, or too slow to risk the oracle. I don't think it's especially great for spectators. It might be, but I'm not sure. Maybe it should need to return to a nexus to deposit the loot.
2. Chain of Fate. For either a smallish flat cost per cast or a larger cost to enable multiple uses, the oracle targets nearby light ground units with a spell, encasing them in a ball similar to Entombed minerals. The ball is then linked to the oracle by means of some kind of energy "rope." Multiple targets can be captured, linking them to the last unit captured. Once chained to the units, when the oracle moves, the captured units get dragged with it. However, the oracle will be slower while dragging. Possibly even slower with each unit captured. (Possible addition: a weak DOT on chained units. You can kill the units just by dragging them long enough).
The chain is broken when the bubbles are attacked and destroyed. Maybe only the unit in that specific bubble and the units further down the chain will be released. Maybe everything. The chain is broken when the oracle is destroyed. The chain is broken if the captured units die. If there is a channeling energy cost, the chain is broken when out of energy. If there is a maximum duration, the chain is broken when the timer ends.
Victims can only be dragged along the ground through areas they could normally path. You cannot drag units through buildings or up/ down cliffs. They will get stuck on whatever obscures them. The "rope" has a maximum stretch distance between links. If the oracle tries to stretch the "ropes" beyond that point, the chain will be broken. If any link in the chain gets caught on something and stretches too far, the whole chain breaks.
There should probably be a maximum amount of links in the chain.
Fulfills 1) Something that makes use of the fast movement speed of the Oracle The oracle's speed, although slower, will allow it to run around with its captives, avoiding the units that will inevitably try to get their shit back and also trying to navigate through the enemy base while dragging victims. The high speed will also help the oracle reach the mineral lines, as the spell has a very short casting range. . 2) Serves as a constant threat to the enemy base until the enemy destroys the Oracle. At any given moment, the oracle can swoop in and capture units. If units are captured, the defending player would need to chase the oracle around his base, if he wants his units back. If the base is open or unattended, the units may be dragged out and into the clutches of the rest of the army.
3) Greater difference between amazing use of the Oracle vs. an average use. Lower skilled players may only be able to snag 2-3 units, b/c they would be unable to properly drag larger amounts without getting caught on something. Higher skilled players may sustain larger chains, in addition to dodging whatever resistance there is. At high levels, good simcity might make dragging difficult, but that just offers another opportunity for good draggers to show their skill. The amount captured can also be a factor, if the player is too greedy or too reserved, he might not use the ability to the best of his ability or just be punished.
4) Is more spectator friendly. Who wouldn't want to watch things get snatched up and dragged to their deaths? Also, navigating simcity while trying to keep the chain from getting snagged and also dodging whatever attacks might be coming could possibly be really entertaining if done properly.
Concerns: The biggest concern was the units applicable. The "light ground units" point was to emphasize workers, but give it some use against some smaller units. I don't know how broken it would be if other units could be targeted. The only defense I would have for that would be that bigger units would probably have the damage necessary to free their comrades in numbers very quickly, losing only when they are caught exposed in small numbers. Being able to punish like that could be good. If bigger units can be captured, maybe the speed penalty should be greater for them.
Another concern is if it can be cast on friendly units. It might be useful to drag some of your own units out of unfavorable situations, saving zealots from zerglings or pulling sentries out of a failed attack. If bigger units can be targeted, it might also be fun to see people use oracles as tugboats for quickly hauling the massive protoss air units. Allowing it to be cast on friendly units could open up a lot of uses and tricks.
I don't know if it should be able to drag down cliffs or up them. I doubt it, but if someone has an argument for that, I would like to hear it. I'm just worried that there would be maps with exposed mineral fields by a cliff that an oracle could raid then drag the victims into an area the defender has no way of reaching.\
Would probably be best if it required research. This might be way too good if it comes too early.
The energy costs, bubble duration/ health, speed penalties, and stretch distances would probably require a lot of balancing. Might be too much. I don't know much about programming. A mechanic like this might not come out well.
Disclaimer: You might think this is too similar to abduct. I guess it might be, but I think the use and experience would be totally different. Abduct says "I'm over here. I'm going to grab you over there and bring you to me." Chain of fate says, "I'm going to where you are, I'm going to grab you, then I'm going to drag you wherever I want to go." You can also fight back, freeing your units.
Instead of making stupid shells over minerals, lets up the damage and entertainment value of our little round friend, the oracle. Furthermore having it pee out a laser beam isn't that cool. So we have abduct, which might already be a name of a different spell, so I propose abduction because thats what actually happens. Like any other classic flying saucer the oracle will use its energy to abduct scvs and drones! Literally suck 3,4,5 of them into its compartment and fly away. Then it can set them down somewhere....or hey if you have more energy it can convert the stolen workers to probes. Maybe you go even further have the oracle pick up other things, maybe pick up turrets and spore/spine crawlers, so you can dt/air harass... Maybe if it has enough energy if can pick up annoying things like barracks that are used to wall off or planetary fortresses, which btw happen to be a bitch to kill. Also give it a big upgrade late game where it can pick up multiple buildings-- that way toss can deal with spine crawler forests or a toss can do devastate a mech production line. Does it convert all these buildings to probes, I don't know, I think it would just go set buildings down somewhere (off creep!). How will energy work... well I will let the experts handle that.
Fulfills
1) Much like fast harassing units, its still a fast harassing unit, but its more obnoxious, sort of like blue hellions or banshees. Plus toss gets an economic benefit if they chose to convert their stolen workers to probes! 2) Again sort of like a mineral shell thing but more fun. It comes back and steals more workers if you don't deal with it. 3) Well I thought the workers abduction was a little amateur and wouldn't require pro skillz. However if you can pick up spores and spines and wall offs, I think it could be utilized in a number of different timing attacks/ combination harassments with dts or air or maybe just allowing a warp prism to get in range . Furthermore if it can pick up production stuff in the late game it could give toss a window to counter attack after a big battle... 4) I think if would be pretty funny if player kept getting his scvs stolen, especially ones that are making things. I think it could have the entertainment value of say a banshee harass or a phoenix harass or any other air harass, but it would of course be more comical. =D Very reminiscent of the classic alien too. Seeing scvs being slowly taken into the sky lolz...
Concerns
My major concern is what happens to the scvs/drones that are in an oracle when the oracle gets killed. I think it would be only fair that the players somehow gets their scvs back. Also should the oracle get to move the buildings it has picked up? If the oracle can move the building what happens to them to the abductioned building if the oracle is flying over an empty spot on the map or over other buildings. Maybe the oracle drags the building in its wake with the abduction beam (which can extend and contract a bit) and is not allowed to drag the abductioned buildings over certain areas. Also how long should it taken to abduction something...Maybe the length it takes for a banshee to kill a probe? Also if you chose to have a mass pick up ability, the air space might get graphically crowded, especially if there is a battle taking place in the area.
If you have this ability perhaps get rid of the mineral igloo ability... which is sort of dumb anyways
This harassment ability is probably going to be ruined by fungal growth and infestors, but wasn't hasn't been ruined by fungal growthes and infestors Davy!
Hey I got some more good ideas about infestors and warpgates too.
Wait this wasn't posted by Davy Kim omg =D
OMG someone just closed the thread I was going to post this in........So its going here... Lol if anyone likes this idea and has a beta key go put it on battle.net
Lol, been reading some of the ideas... I have another one. Late game, have the oracle become a fire ship type unit. A suicide unit, lol, like those zerg glider things in BW. Fly it into groups of corruptors, infestors, spore/spine forests, barrack spams, broodlords, ghosts then! horrific blue explosion, explosion which also throws shit and ripples bl wings like a tidal wave.!!! Then Mr. Browda can say terrible terrible damage without it being so dumb.
It's not very different from anything else, in fact it's very similar to Abduct.
The only similarity it shares with abduct is that it moves enemy units from one place to another. Abduct would never be used for harass because it costs too much energy to only hit one unit. The Oracle would have to be directly over the units it plans on relocating, and the teleporting would have to take place within a certain time frame to keep it somewhat balanced. Abduct is a long-range projectile, so you can pull things from outside of harm's way...the Oracle has to be directly on top of units, so it can't just render groups of marines useless without dying. If there was still the threat of overlap, you could just make it not be able to move massive units.
Yeah and the only similarity that Brood Lord shares with Guardian from BW is that they're both slow flying zerg units with long range that are created by mutating another zerg flying units. Very different from each other.
You can abduct your own banelings into the enemy's mineral line. You said something about never using it for harass?
I'm not concerned with similarities of units from an entirely different game, only the game at hand. Who cares if there is a similarity between a Brood Lord and a Guardian?
And yes, you can abduct banelings into the opponent's mineral line, but saying that is a viable harass option is almost like saying you can use infestors to NP an SCV, then the SCV can tech up to medivacs and marines for harass. It's a round-about way of doing things that would never be effective in an actual game. Why use so much energy on a hive-tech unit to get banelings into someone's mineral line when you can just drop them 4 at a time from an overlord at lair tech?
If you disagree with the idea, I'm cool with it, but there's really no reason to troll.
You're missing the entire point, or trying to avoid it. You can say "the only similarity is" about anything. You said it about two things which are, at their core, very similar to each other. I tried to make you see this absurdity by using another example of two things that are very similar. It's not trolling, it's using an example to get my point across. You tried to do it yourself with your infestor thing. Although that example was extremely far from the thing you were trying to liken it to. Maybe that's just a thing you do, confusing "similar" with "different".
How about putting phase shield back in? I liked the micro potential it had.
If the complexity of the spell was the problem, just make it simpler. Have it shield units from all damage and spells, but disable all abilities and attacks--a stasis without the root.
An ability like this would have a lot of potential application for retreating, closing your zealots in on the opponent's army, or disabling a chunk of the opponent's army. The spell's power can be somewhat mitigated by the fragility of the oracle to pretty much any long range anti-air.
Might not be balanced but he micro potential is what I think is the most important; balance tuning should be made to a unit that is already fun and microable.
A couple more ideas. These are intended more for army support than harassment:
1) Anathema. The oracle pilot channels the collective racial hatred, suffering, and rage of the Dark Templar through the ages, summoning and launching forward a spectral warrior through the air. It is a being of extreme hatred, capable of spreading it's hatred to the foes it passes with its audibly loud psionic cry. Enemies feel compelled to chase and destroy the anathema, forgetting whatever task they were given. It absorbs their attacks, taking their hatred into its own. (Possible addition: The oracle temporarily cloaks while the anathema is in the air or for a brief time after casting). (Possible addition: If the opponent is in the process of aiming the ability of a unit nearby, the anathema is automatically selected. May apply to scans too, could seem really random though).
Basically, it's a taunt. The oracle pays X energy to launch the anathema in a selected direction. It flies along that path for however long it lasts. Enemy units/ structures within a certain range of the anathema, perhaps within the opponent's sight range, basically get a right click command that overrides whatever they were doing. Units capable of attacking air (conveniently also the units that might otherwise attack the oracle) will target it and chase it. Units without an anti air attack simply move towards it.
It harshly punishes chronic A-movers, or people not paying attention to the targeted units. Though skilled defending players would very quickly redirect their forces, the skilled oracle user would still be able to force the defender to take back control and even cancel queued up commands or units getting into position. Even if the defender redirects his units, they will probably have been pulled out of position just a bit or waste a few volleys on the anathema. This could either give the attacking player's army a better chance to advance, avoid some damage, or even escape. Players can also use this ability to sneak past static defense, allowing them to slip the oracle into a base while the defense targets the anathema.
From a spectator's perspective, the ability might graphically be interesting. It might be like a large flying DT with particle effects. It might even be made to look like an effigy of Raszagal, adding to the lore. I don't know if that exactly fits, lore wise. Spectators can also appreciate seeing an entire army redirect its attention to a new target, and get excited when they realize that the defender hasn't fixed things yet. It would also be impressive if an exceptional defender completely negates much of the use, or an exceptional oracle user manages to outplay the defender's attempts. Another potentially impressive use is a skilled oracle user using the ability to save units at the last moment that are about to be destroyed.
Concerns and considerations: I don't know if the anathema should be destructible, or just tank all the damage directed towards it. I'm inclined to believe that it would be more fun if it can't be destroyed, but that's a balance decision.
Energy costs, cooldown, or research requirements might need a lot of consideration.
I don't know if workers should ignore it. If not, it provides the opportunity for the oracle to harass the workers by pulling them off the line until the defender does something about it. It could also be a way to lure workers or really anything else towards other units that are ready to kill them.
I have no idea how fast it should be or how long it should travel. It might be fun if it gets cancelled when it leaves your range of vision. If it does temporarily cloak the oracle, it could be fun to see an oracle launch the anathema then follow behind it, trying to prolong the flight as long as possible. If launched into a base, this tactic could allow the oracle to safely enter deep into a base that's unattended.
If detection is really needed for the oracle, they might be able to add something like cloaked/ burrowed units unwittingly reveal themselves in their abrupt rage. Maybe it cancels cloak spells for terran units or unburrow units. That last part seems a bit much.
Maybe it would be better if the anathema was considered ground and air like a colossus. That might imply making it really big, which could clutter the screen. Still, it could be cool if all units with attacks try destroying it. That might also be too powerful.
I don't think the anathema should be controllable once launched. Maybe, but I doubt it.
I don't think it should be able to do damage. If it does, perhaps it hurts units it passes over or explodes/ applies some effect when it expires--affecting the units that followed it and punishing unattentive players.
Maybe units should return to their original tasks after the anathema expires.
2. False prophet. A simpler version of the above spell. The oracle uses energy to create a cloned hallucination of itself and cloaking the original. The false prophet is launched in a selected direction, banking if the original was in motion and launching the clone to the side or visibly maintaining the appearance of flying straight, if launched in the current direction. Once launched, the false prophet is controllable as any other unit, though lacking the oracle's spells. The false prophet retains the hp/ shields/ energy of the oracle at the time of casting, further making it difficult to differentiate it from the real thing. The cloak ends when the false prophet dies. (Possible addition: The false prophet explodes or has some kind of splash effect when it dies/ expires).
Like anathema, this is also a kind of play on a squid's ink cloud. It provides a means of distraction, allowing the oracle to escape. The false prophet also gives the oracle a scouting option. It can launch the clone into a base, risking nothing but energy. The oracle might also wait to deploy it until it's inside the base, allowing the two to split up to cover more ground. Furthermore, if the oracle enters a base to scout or harass in some way, the false prophet can provide a distraction and the cloak necessary to get out in an emergency. The false prophet can open up attempts to bluff the opponent. If you launch the clone just through the edge of the vision of a skilled player, they may think they caught an attempt to harass and reposition to stop it.
From a spectator's perspective, it be fun in that it allows close escapes. It may provide interesting mind games, situations like the one mentioned in the previous paragraph. If the false prophet has some kind of explosion or effect upon death, it could allow for more mind games. The user might charge an oracle towards units, making the defender think "That has to be a false prophet. Who would risk an oracle like that?" and pull back.
Concerns and considerations: It might be better if there is no cloak, both from a balance and design consideration. If there are two identical units, you have to decide which one is the real thing and chase that. That might be as much fun to watch as an ultralisk drop harass, but possibly more useful. Depending on how the oracle ends up being able to harass, you may make the opponent think you have more oracles in the area for harass and are then a bigger threat. It might also be fun if you can cast more than one prophet, allowing a whole gaggle of oracles to pop into a base or make it harder to catch the real one. I have no idea if that would be balanced or not. The random factor is a bit unappealing too.
Maybe it should have a taunt feature like the anathema.
Maybe it should have a set amount of health. Something much lower than a real oracle.
Maybe it should have a similar vision of the clone requirement to maintain it, like the one suggestion for the anathema.
Maybe sentries should be unable to hallucinate oracles. That might prevent opportunities to bluff oracle harass, but it might be too much if there's a giant flood of fake oracles that can rake through a base and see absolutely everything.
Maybe the false prophet shouldn't be controllable, launching in a single direction upon cast.
Maybe the exploding false prophet briefly detects, if it has an explosion.
Maybe the explosion, if it has one, can be manually detonated.
I don't know how to handle expiration conditions.
3. Nezarim Fire/ Shrouded vision. The oracle creates a wall of psionic flames/ smoke made with Nezarim energy. The wall acts as a temporary line of sight blocker.
The oracle spends X energy to start channeling the spell. While channeled, the oracle shoots a beam at the ground, which the player can control by moving the mouse to trace shape of the desired wall. Energy depletes while tracing.
This is both an army support spell and a harassment/ escape tool. If people want more positional play, this may be something the Protoss can have, The oracle can create line of site blockers to either force engagements or discourage them. besides just FF. This can help the protoss army engage other well positioned players, exploiting their lack of vision or air support by leapfrogging walls of Nezarim fire to allow the army to close in before the defender's units get in range to attack. As a harassment unit, the oracle might benefit from being able to create a smokescreen to help it make close get aways.
This might be fun for spectators. The ability to force or discourage engagements can lead to really tense moments. Both players posture their armies to engage, but the oracles create line of sight blockers to change the terrain. Posturing may be more dynamic. Players can come up with interesting shapes with the flames, or even write stuff to BM. Wouldn't you like to see HerO burn "TL" into the ground in blue fire? Wouldn't you want to burn "GG?" in the ground in front of a turtle who basically lost the game several minutes ago?
Concerns and considerations: I don't think the flames should do any damage. Maybe they should. They could do damage as oracle burns them into the ground, allowing the oracle to add some damage to a big engagement if it targets the ground under the army. Maybe that's too much. They might also apply a dot to units that are standing in or even above the flames. That might be necessary if the line of sight blockers alone aren't enough of a concern. Maybe a slow or armor debuff for those that pass? I don't know.
The exact energy concerns, the duration of the flames, and the amount/ speed/ range/ damage of tracing are a mystery to me.
If the walls do damage, I don't know if they should damage friendly units.
Maybe too much BM from being able to write stuff. Blizzard might flip over profanity.
4. Nezarim Fire (Alternate version)/ Will o Wisp The oracle places a small, barely visible flame on the ground that after a certain amount of time detonates into a small AOE damage/ effect. It acts as a little time bomb.
The flame goes out if the oracle is destroyed.
This could be a harassment/ positional tool. The oracle sneaks into a base, drops a flame, then gets out. If the player doesn't notice it in time to pull whatever is targeted away if he can, the flame detonates. Spectators can watch in anticipation, waiting to see if the defender catches it in time. The spell can also be cast in a big engagement to damage/ affect the enemy army if they don't move back/ spot the flame in time. Before the big engagement, the oracles may also drop Nezarim Fire while posturing. It says, "If you engage right here and now, you're going to get hit."
Concerns and Considerations: I don't know if it should affect friendlies.
If it is an effect instead of just damage, I have no idea what it should be.
Perhaps it should have a small AOE pull towards the center. It will be weak, only affecting stationary units and easily able to walk out of. I don't know if should stop workers mining, or if it should pull air.
I don't know if the explosion should hit air.
I don't know if each oracle should be able to place more than one at a time.
Maybe the oracle must stay within a certain range. That could make the use even more tense while harassing.
A lot of skilled players could catch it too often for it to be worth the cost, just as it is with entomb.
Though I'd like it to be a positional tool, it may just be too good at harassment. If made more suitable for harassment, it might not be good enough to be a threat on the battlefield.
Chrono sink Slows attack, mining and movement for friend and foes in an area for a duration. A blurry visual effect should make the area pretty easy to spot.
It's not very different from anything else, in fact it's very similar to Abduct.
The only similarity it shares with abduct is that it moves enemy units from one place to another. Abduct would never be used for harass because it costs too much energy to only hit one unit. The Oracle would have to be directly over the units it plans on relocating, and the teleporting would have to take place within a certain time frame to keep it somewhat balanced. Abduct is a long-range projectile, so you can pull things from outside of harm's way...the Oracle has to be directly on top of units, so it can't just render groups of marines useless without dying. If there was still the threat of overlap, you could just make it not be able to move massive units.
Yeah and the only similarity that Brood Lord shares with Guardian from BW is that they're both slow flying zerg units with long range that are created by mutating another zerg flying units. Very different from each other.
You can abduct your own banelings into the enemy's mineral line. You said something about never using it for harass?
I'm not concerned with similarities of units from an entirely different game, only the game at hand. Who cares if there is a similarity between a Brood Lord and a Guardian?
And yes, you can abduct banelings into the opponent's mineral line, but saying that is a viable harass option is almost like saying you can use infestors to NP an SCV, then the SCV can tech up to medivacs and marines for harass. It's a round-about way of doing things that would never be effective in an actual game. Why use so much energy on a hive-tech unit to get banelings into someone's mineral line when you can just drop them 4 at a time from an overlord at lair tech?
If you disagree with the idea, I'm cool with it, but there's really no reason to troll.
You're missing the entire point, or trying to avoid it. You can say "the only similarity is" about anything. You said it about two things which are, at their core, very similar to each other. I tried to make you see this absurdity by using another example of two things that are very similar. It's not trolling, it's using an example to get my point across. You tried to do it yourself with your infestor thing. Although that example was extremely far from the thing you were trying to liken it to. Maybe that's just a thing you do, confusing "similar" with "different".
There's a lot of irony in you telling me I'm missing the entire point, when you've derailed this conversation from the very beginning. I'll make it more clear - if you're here to troll and just disagree for the fun of it, go troll someone else's post or get on reddit. I'm here to have a good-natured discussion.
On October 21 2012 03:59 sona wrote: Giving oracle an irradiate spell (SV from sc1) would be epic and could give rise to interesting tactics. But call it ionize
1. Use it to harass mineral lines (eraser technique or individual target) 2. Use it with the army to get rid of important targets like HT/Ghost/Infestors 3. Fight units that clump up (Vikings, broodlords, phoenixes)
This will give a reason to build oracles for the WHOLE game. Another spell that could be added is recharge - charge the shields of nearby units or buildings like a sheild battery from sc1.
It's not very different from anything else, in fact it's very similar to Abduct.
The only similarity it shares with abduct is that it moves enemy units from one place to another. Abduct would never be used for harass because it costs too much energy to only hit one unit. The Oracle would have to be directly over the units it plans on relocating, and the teleporting would have to take place within a certain time frame to keep it somewhat balanced. Abduct is a long-range projectile, so you can pull things from outside of harm's way...the Oracle has to be directly on top of units, so it can't just render groups of marines useless without dying. If there was still the threat of overlap, you could just make it not be able to move massive units.
Yeah and the only similarity that Brood Lord shares with Guardian from BW is that they're both slow flying zerg units with long range that are created by mutating another zerg flying units. Very different from each other.
You can abduct your own banelings into the enemy's mineral line. You said something about never using it for harass?
I'm not concerned with similarities of units from an entirely different game, only the game at hand. Who cares if there is a similarity between a Brood Lord and a Guardian?
And yes, you can abduct banelings into the opponent's mineral line, but saying that is a viable harass option is almost like saying you can use infestors to NP an SCV, then the SCV can tech up to medivacs and marines for harass. It's a round-about way of doing things that would never be effective in an actual game. Why use so much energy on a hive-tech unit to get banelings into someone's mineral line when you can just drop them 4 at a time from an overlord at lair tech?
If you disagree with the idea, I'm cool with it, but there's really no reason to troll.
You're missing the entire point, or trying to avoid it. You can say "the only similarity is" about anything. You said it about two things which are, at their core, very similar to each other. I tried to make you see this absurdity by using another example of two things that are very similar. It's not trolling, it's using an example to get my point across. You tried to do it yourself with your infestor thing. Although that example was extremely far from the thing you were trying to liken it to. Maybe that's just a thing you do, confusing "similar" with "different".
There's a lot of irony in you telling me I'm missing the entire point, when you've derailed this conversation from the very beginning. I'll make it more clear - if you're here to troll and just disagree for the fun of it, go troll someone else's post or get on reddit. I'm here to have a good-natured discussion.
Well, by now you've accused me of trolling twice even though I haven't been close to anything of the sort. I'm starting to suspect I'm the one being trolled since you claim to be here to have a discussion yet every time someone disagrees or points out your mistakes you label it as ill intent. Unfortunately, you're not very good at it, since you haven't been able to agitate me once.
Make it a single-target low-energy-cost spell that targets workers.
Each worker that brings back resources, whilst under the effect of the spell, takes damage equals to twice - four times the amount of the harvested resources.
This makes it a bit micro intense for the protoss as he can't simply move in, click once and move out. She/he will have to target multiple workers for the harass to be effective, and preferably keep on harassing over time. It will also make it more micro demanding for the defending player, as he is forced to not only deal with the oracle, he also has to remove workers from the mineral line in accordance to the ones that are affected and then move them back onto gathering resources when the spell wears out. When used against workers mining high yield minerals, it could clear the whole worker-line in just seconds.
This could allow for protoss to control or at least affect the income of the defending player (ie. by targetting gas), but not to the point where it isn't possible to deal with the harass effectively. It just becomes really demanding after a while if the protoss is insistive.
Flavour-text: Resonance Weakens the intertial structure of the mineral, giving cause to micro-vibrations within the now highly active resource. Resulting in biologically harmful nuclei resonance.
Another version could be a slightly higher cost, that targets single mineral patches / geysers which will damage every worker that harvests from that resource. If a base is fully saturated and the defending player doesn't take notice, he could easily lose two - three workers per affected resource in a short time span.
This could allow the defending player to void the effect if he is really good at micro-managing individual workers as he then can spread the damage and still continue gathering resources. Further potentially increasing the efficiency of any further protoss harasses, as storm or zeal drops.
On October 18 2012 09:46 SarcasmMonster wrote: So vague. Let's give them suggestions
I propose a Lightning shield (from WC3) + Defensive matrix hybrid spell. A single Zealot infused with Lightning-shield-matrix in the mineral line would be so awesome Promotes small group tactics.
1. We agree with our community that Entomb is not a spectator friendly ability because it's so easy to execute and is targeted at only 1 location (minerals).
At least they're catching on.
I second the Lightning shield idea, you can also cast it on enemy workers in the mineral line.
I'd like if they removed the range upgrades for colossus and tempest, and instead gave the oracle an ability that could tremendously increase a units range.
On October 23 2012 01:22 WaesumNinja wrote: I'd like if they removed the range upgrades for colossus and tempest, and instead gave the oracle an ability that could tremendously increase a units range.
Edit: the sentence above now makes more sense.
I also thought about a "range" ability in one of the carrier threads. Give the oracle a "cast flare ability" that will produce a flare which will remain static in a certain area (like the point defense drone) and allow your air units to fire with increased range (+x range when firing into the area that is lit by the "flare").
That way, Protoss air can wreak havoc in a small area (focusing down a base, guarding a ramp, breaking a guarded spot) while remaining in safer distance with the heavy hitters (carriers, tempest).
How about an AoE slow? I mean, you could do so much with it. Places a movement speed reduction in a targeted area which slows all units in the area. It can be used to slow worker mining or to slow a region where battle is happening, kind of like the corsair's disruption web except focused on MS and not attack disruption. It can serve the same purpose as entomb in damaging the opponent's economy as well as be useful out in battle. Just think of stimmed bio movement speed and speedling movement speed being decreased. Reliance on sentry FF will be lessened and maybe even used more tactically than just being spammed to lock units in or out. It will allow for both players to focus more on unit control and positioning in the fight than just 1a, macro, cast spells, gg, since movement speed is incredibly important for all units. The aoe range and cast range can be worked out for balance. Blizzard made protoss into a race that controls space to obtain an advantage, so give them a crowd control spell for speed and maybe the oracle will become used in all stages of the game.
On October 23 2012 01:22 WaesumNinja wrote: I'd like if they removed the range upgrades for colossus and tempest, and instead gave the oracle an ability that could tremendously increase a units range.
Edit: the sentence above now makes more sense.
I also thought about a "range" ability in one of the carrier threads. Give the oracle a "cast flare ability" that will produce a flare which will remain static in a certain area (like the point defense drone) and allow your air units to fire with increased range (+x range when firing into the area that is lit by the "flare").
That way, Protoss air can wreak havoc in a small area (focusing down a base, guarding a ramp, breaking a guarded spot) while remaining in safer distance with the heavy hitters (carriers, tempest).
Any oracle ability that buffs a friendly unit is practically doomed to further encourage deathball play, which is probably what noone wants. The unit needs to be a harasser at first and add little to deathball play, at least that is what they want.
On October 23 2012 01:22 WaesumNinja wrote: I'd like if they removed the range upgrades for colossus and tempest, and instead gave the oracle an ability that could tremendously increase a units range.
Edit: the sentence above now makes more sense.
I also thought about a "range" ability in one of the carrier threads. Give the oracle a "cast flare ability" that will produce a flare which will remain static in a certain area (like the point defense drone) and allow your air units to fire with increased range (+x range when firing into the area that is lit by the "flare").
That way, Protoss air can wreak havoc in a small area (focusing down a base, guarding a ramp, breaking a guarded spot) while remaining in safer distance with the heavy hitters (carriers, tempest).
Any oracle ability that buffs a friendly unit is practically doomed to further encourage deathball play, which is probably what noone wants. The unit needs to be a harasser at first and add little to deathball play, at least that is what they want.
But what if the range ability is channeled? Seeing how oracles would be relatively simple to snipe, that would spell doom for a deathball that relies on colossus with long range, but could still have some potential for cute shit.
(I'm talking about an ability that would be single unit target and just add x range to its attacks btw, not that flare thing)
On October 23 2012 05:39 See.Blue wrote: I'd love an oracle spell thats aoe and makes the enemies it hits take damage from hallucinated units for some amount of time.
I like the idea, unfortunately that's way too linear. A spell that only makes units vulnerable to fake units from another spell is not good design, especially when those spells come from two different units. But you could have a lategame upgrade for the Sentry that would make hallucinations deal some percentage of their normal unit damage. That would give Sentries some late game uses.
Targeted like you would target with storm. The oracle releases à slowmoving scarab that attaches itself to the closest friendly or unfriendly unit, dealing damage in an area around the unit and to the unit. The closer to the scarab, the more damage is dealt (so the targeted unit takes maximum damage). The damage comes in 5 waves and is increased by each wave up to something like 45 damage. If the unit that carries the scarab is attacked, the scarab is dropped immediatly but will still do the pulsing damage and try to latch on to the closest unit (Melee distance and its really slow by itself) until it blows itself up the last wave.
Im thinking the scarab should last for perhaps 10 seconds or so. Numbers not really important but more so the idea that you can use it on for example a zealot to do some bombing, trying to time when you should run it in the mineral line for maximum damage output, or perhaps lift up the unit with Phoenix for some air aoe. In the right hands i can imagine it to do some pretty sick stuff.
There is alot of room for creative use, which is important and it doesnt add to the deathball aoe. If someone could post on blizzard forum i would appreciate it. What do you guys think?
My suggestion for the Oracle that jumped to my mind last night:
First Ability Keep the entomb ability, make it single target, indestructable but let workers be able to mine its hitpoints for no income.
Second Ability - Spell Propagation The oracle has the ability to absorb a single energy based spell in a small area around it and is able cast this spell once for the same energy cost. The oracle becomes unable to move while in absorb-mode. Once cast it is ready to absorb the next spell.
I imagine this to be a great multi-purpose ability for harassment and battle support, it would for example allow high templars to cast one storm on an oracle and let the oracle do the "storm-drop", but only once and basically for two times the energy cost because it wastes energy on the HT and the oracle. But it would also allow to counter EMP and Fungal to a certain extent. For example a second EMP would drain the energy on the oracle but the first could be absorbed, if you're quick you could EMP the ghosts before that however. I think that this ability would allow for great dynamics in caster based battles but is far from being overpowered because of its limitations, i.e.: only once, energy cost etc.
Third Ability - Sight Range Decrease This ability should have to be researched from the fleet beacon otherwise it would be to powerful in the early/mid-game. This is a battle support and space control spell which allows the oracle to cast it on an area and every enemy unit in the area has then a decreased sight range.
Cast it in front of your army and the enemy would have to close in more on your army to be able to fire if he wants to engage or he has to flank you and circumvent the affected area. It can also be countered by scan, zergs however have no direct counter. I think this ability would help protoss greatly in dealing with zerg deathballs without the need to have a mothership.
If you like these suggestions please feel free to post them on the battle.net forums.
One thing I'd really like to see would be a way for Oracles to harass more consistently. On that front, I was thinking, what if Void Siphon didn't harvest minerals, but rather gave Oracle's energy? So you could charge up with very light anti-building harass to unleash the more powerful spell that replaces Entomb more often--clever players could also attack their own buildings to charge up more consistent harass. That way, it really rewards players who stay active with their Oracle rather than simply flying in every so often.
On October 21 2012 03:59 sona wrote: Giving oracle an irradiate spell (SV from sc1) would be epic and could give rise to interesting tactics. But call it ionize
1. Use it to harass mineral lines (eraser technique or individual target) 2. Use it with the army to get rid of important targets like HT/Ghost/Infestors 3. Fight units that clump up (Vikings, broodlords, phoenixes)
This will give a reason to build oracles for the WHOLE game. Another spell that could be added is recharge - charge the shields of nearby units or buildings like a sheild battery from sc1.
I like this idea in it's entirety.
God damn that sounds sick. It would really synergize well with protoss as they are.
We are seeing Mothership Core be moderately effective at early harrassment, but that is obviously of limited use with Queens. The current Oracle we are testing almost always denies the Zerg player's 3rd, which is interesting and may help you in applying pressure to the Zerg.
will be interesting to see how they changed the oracle. denying the 3rd base sounds super powerful. really wondering what abilities they gave to the oracle now o.O
Transform entomb into stasis field from broodwar. Problem solved, after that make the hellbat come out of the barracks and let the hellion deploy the mine. Also the swarmhost now deals splash damage in a single direction with limited range. The medivac can also come out of the barracks and walk and be biologic.
On October 24 2012 05:20 theBlues wrote: Transform entomb into stasis field from broodwar. Problem solved, after that make the hellbat come out of the barracks and let the hellion deploy the mine. Also the swarmhost now deals splash damage in a single direction with limited range. The medivac can also come out of the barracks and walk and be biologic.
hey look! lets remake the same game it took 10 years to balance so you and everyone else that played broodwar can not try a different game. sc2 is sc2, bw is bw. if you dont like sc2, dont play it.
What about if Oracle had a Vortex-like spell (call it "Gravity Field" for discussion) that works basically like Vortex, only instead of pulling units into a hole, it just pulls them to the center and holds them there for a few seconds and then lets them go. To balance, it would probably have to be a channeling ability like Graviton beam. It would stop mining time by pulling a lot of enemy workers together for a few seconds (equivalent of them having to pull all probes), which is nice worker harassment without being OP in killing workers early game. It would have to work only on infantry-type units; I would say bio, but I mean like workers, Marines Ghosts Marauders, Gateway units+Immortals, basically no air units or massive units (possible no casters).
The best part - in mid, and even late-game, it could be used in conjunction with Storm drops to use Gravity field to pull workers into one spot and storm them - the same thing could be done to hold Marines/Marauders in place so Zealots can attack/surround them, or instead, pin them in place if you need to run. Depending on when in the tech tree this comes, this could mean Protoss no longer needs forcefields. Protoss could hold units in place to stop them from kiting for a LIMITED time, or stick units to a spot to run away, without given the ability to freely manipulate the terrain to whatever happens to suit them. Or perhaps this ability would be better off just given to the sentry?
I honestly think this could fix Protoss and give a way to get rid of forcefield, or at least change it significantly. What do you guys think? Good idea?
On October 24 2012 05:20 theBlues wrote: Transform entomb into stasis field from broodwar. Problem solved, after that make the hellbat come out of the barracks and let the hellion deploy the mine. Also the swarmhost now deals splash damage in a single direction with limited range. The medivac can also come out of the barracks and walk and be biologic.
hey look! lets remake the same game it took 10 years to balance so you and everyone else that played broodwar can not try a different game. sc2 is sc2, bw is bw. if you dont like sc2, dont play it.
what a dumb comment. sc2 is sc2, bw is bw. if you don't like sc2, don't play it. but if you don't like hots, give suggestions to improve it. do you understand the point of a beta?
On October 24 2012 05:20 theBlues wrote: Transform entomb into stasis field from broodwar. Problem solved, after that make the hellbat come out of the barracks and let the hellion deploy the mine. Also the swarmhost now deals splash damage in a single direction with limited range. The medivac can also come out of the barracks and walk and be biologic.
hey look! lets remake the same game it took 10 years to balance so you and everyone else that played broodwar can not try a different game. sc2 is sc2, bw is bw. if you dont like sc2, dont play it.
what a dumb comment. sc2 is sc2, bw is bw. if you don't like sc2, don't play it. but if you don't like hots, give suggestions to improve it. do you understand the point of a beta?
yes I do. I would rather have a beta thats based off turnng hots into its own game, not bw 2.0. im all for making things less deathball vs deathball and gimmick vs gimmick, but remaking broodwar isnt the way to do it.
We are seeing Mothership Core be moderately effective at early harrassment, but that is obviously of limited use with Queens. The current Oracle we are testing almost always denies the Zerg player's 3rd, which is interesting and may help you in applying pressure to the Zerg.
We are seeing Mothership Core be moderately effective at early harrassment, but that is obviously of limited use with Queens. The current Oracle we are testing almost always denies the Zerg player's 3rd, which is interesting and may help you in applying pressure to the Zerg.
I almost spit out my drink when I saw this, it might be the most hilariously grandiose statement Browder has made throughout the whole beta. Then again, there's also the possibility that his analysis is spot-on, which would mean...
I'm hoping that blizzard have listened to these forums and use this opportunity to reinvent the sentry by replacing it with the oracle. With the right spells, it has the potential to be a spell caster that is both useful in harass and main armies, unlike sentry and oracle atm. The fact that it's an air unit will a) make it's impact more obvious to spectators b) make micro a lot funner and c) get protoss into the early game air mindset that hard to buy in WoL. I think this would be the single most important change to protoss Blizz could make.
Now for funsies, here's how i'd kit out the sentroracle: - Guardian shield: i don't think anyone has a problem with this spell. It's well balanced, counter-able, looks cool. Maybe make it a skill shot cast over an area. - Unit slow: something to replace OP forcefields, that would make a good harass spell. i read somewhere else someone suggested a damage-when-moving spell. this would also make great harass tool and be useful in fights. - Farsight: some spell that grants extended vision around sentroracle. Good for scouting, battle positioning, etc. - One more, perhaps upgradable.
I say just stick with the building destruction skill but make it double as strong (or something to that effect). Then you can harrass with 4-5 phenonix and 1-2 oracles by running pheonix in to tank damage while orcales kill the 1 - 2ish turrets, while turrets target pheonix (blizzard should make turrets fire on both units at equal priority to make this viable).
The problem is the oracle be an anti light unit because that's what the pheonix is, and it can't be a heavy hitter air to ground because its supposed to be a harrass unit. So, why don't we just let it synergize with the pheonix. Atm phoenix harrass seems very 1-dimensonal because the knee jerk reaction is 1-2 spores/turrets, which shutdown pheonix harrass pretty handily.
Protoss can't use voidrays to harrass because their slow. More importantly void rays can't (and shouldn't) be able to run away from vikings and corrupters.
Now the protoss has an option to build just oracles or orcacle/pheonix (a heavy investment), or just phoenix. In all these cases, the best response by terran is probably, get no turrets but more unit anti air, get lots of turrets or turrets + unit aa, or just get a few turrets, respectively. This nuance adds depth to the stargate option, there are soft counters now.
Think about mutas picking off turrets before being driven back by the marines. It threatens later damage. Phoenix/oracle does.
------------------------------------ As a side note, with doubly powered oracales, they might make mid-late game extremely exciting on the rare occasion in which a player does mass a fair number of them (lets say 10). They now become sheer glass cannons, laying waste to bases at 400 dps. Turrets versus oracles will be an interesting relation, 10 doubly-powered orcales can kill 5 turrets in around 5 seconds. however during that time turrets deal (15turret*sec x27dps) = 405 damage, taking out maybe 2 oracles.
However, they tie up a whopping 30 supply. 1500min/gas, and a chain fungal or emps could be a real kick in the balls to the protoss.
Also, now the opponent has two options, thus the excitement, mass expand and put absurd amounts of aa defense because the opponent doesn't have a large enough standing army to attack you. OR, just go the attack on an expansion or just the straight up go-kill-him right now.
Not scouting 7 oracles is like not scouting 5 carriers. You're going to be in a world of hurt.
EPT
soft detection was nice also
