EPTMy take: "#SaveHOTS" - Page 16
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TheLunatic
309 Posts
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17Sphynx17
580 Posts
On October 20 2012 13:08 aZealot wrote: + Show Spoiler + On October 19 2012 00:05 DarkSeth wrote: This thread represents everything that is wrong with the gaming scene nowadays. The consumers demand to be heard. It is this that destroys franchises, not the corporations wish to make money. You can whine and complain as much as you want about how Blizzard turned into an arrogant game developer that does not listen, and are completely ignorant to consumer feedback (which they are not). They still have MUCH more experience in designing, creating, and balancing games than anyone in this thread with MAYBE an exception or two. So for the love of God, cut them some slack. Blizzard has delivered so many times, it is revolting to see this lack of faith. Most of the mistakes they make are because of their attempt to please the masses, which will never achieve the best possible result, because the average person is actually not that bright. Remember all those games that blew you away? That were so innovating and fresh they made your jaw drop in awe? Odds are you never tried to influence how that game would turn out. Odds are you TRUSTED the developer to deliver a good game. Odds are it took you by surprise, because you did not have a list of what YOU wanted in the game. Now, I am not saying that the SC2 team at Blizzard is perfect, but they are damn far from as incompetent as many of you paint them out to be. In most cases Blizzard delivers, and sitting here reading post upon post about how broken SC2 is, is fucking infuriating. Many of you are so obscenely focused on finding something negative to point out that you are no longer capable of even enjoying the game, being caught up in your crusade to change the game into your own liking. Many of you are so obscenely focused on whining that in lack of something to actually complain about you just jump on the bandwagon, completely clueless as to what you are actually advocating. That being said, there are off course a lot of good ideas, and well thought through feedback. Sadly much of it disappears in the ocean of near aggressive complaints. I am going to have to stop here. I could go on and on about the problems with forums, and consumer feedback, so I will leave you with this. Do not forget what brought you to the game to begin with. What made you spend hours playing. What gave you all the entertainment you undoubtedly have had. Do not forget that when it all boils down, every game designer and programmer do what they do because they love games, and because they want to create something that will be appreciated and enjoyed. Great post. I could not agree more. I posted this a little while ago: Too often ideas are posted because they are "fun" or "cool" which does not necessarily make them any good. So many suggestions also imply a wish to do anything you want in the game. There does not seem to be a realization that the game has limits, has rules. That your chosen race has limits, has rules. That the fun in the game comes from negotiating those limits and rules. In other words, being aware of the trade-offs that are inherent in making decisions in a RTS. If you don't like those limitations, those rules, play a different race or play a different game. Believe me, you won't be missed. So much of feedback is little more than "I want to do X but can't" or "Why I can't I do Y?". "Change the game/my race!" etc. Occasionally they may have a point. But only on occasion. Most of the time, it's little more than a waste of space and time. Not all feedback is good feedback. Blizzard should, rightly, ignore most feedback thrown at it for SC2. I hope the Dev team puts their head down and do what they have to do. 9/10 times what they come up with will be better than the cabal of self appointed designers and keyboard experts on TL (and Reddit). If the game lives on, great. If not, you know what? No worries. Moaning about SC2 and E-Sports on the forums is a good definition of a First World problem. I think a good number of people need a break from TL. That or just press the "find match" button. I am going to take my own suggestion and just play or do other things irl for a few days. I suggest some of the rest of you do the same. GLHF chaps. But wouldn't it be better to just keep channels open for possible suggestion that might actually work to better it for the sake of everyone? Granted you don't get evrey suggestion as that is just wrong and stupid. But at least it gives more opportunity to brainstorm. Look at Bnet 2.0 changes, they are listening. If the devs really shouldn't listen, they wouldn't have done it either way. So I think there is merit and at least a purpose in trying to reach out to the devs. Who knows, it might actually work and they may actually listen. As long as we are not bashing each other's ideas but rather contributing to a healthy discussion of what the pros and cons of each and every action/change is, we might actually be helping them give us a better gaming experience. Who in the end will be using it anyway? Wouldn't it be us? Yes, we are not experienced balance experts, we are not developers of games yada yada yada.. but still, we are the users and we actually manage to experience what effect their design took on to the experience/game. So it has to count for something. As long as you are not just shouting X unit OP only, then it is worth exploring at least first through discussion and maybe making a custom map as one user suggested to see how it fares (but that its limitations as well). But I hope you get the idea. | ||
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Gretorp
United States586 Posts
On October 20 2012 11:57 kochanfe wrote: Really love your post and what you are trying to do here, but there are a couple things I fundamentally disagree on: 1. Funnily enough, as powerful as casters are in SC2, they were actually ten times MORE powerful in Brood War and BW was a far more balanced and dynamic game than SC2... so I don't think making casters less powerful is the answer. 2. Also, you talk about EMP as if it is overpowered vs Protoss, but Psi-Storm is just as powerful vs Terran in that matchup if not even more powerful. Neither should actually be able to end the game as long as your opponent is any good. A top level Protoss player can easily prevent a blanket EMP just as a top level Terran can easily prevent a blanket storm. Those things said, I do appreciate the spirit and the vast majority of the content of your post. I'm also not 100% opposed to your suggestion of removing HSM and putting EMP onto the Raven. The Ghost's Snipe and Nuke Calldown would certainly still have their places so yeah... hope you read this post even though its fifteen pages in  :-) I actually read every post and definitely do keep everything in consideration. I'm very subject to change and after reading some people's posts I often times said I'd like to change my OP a bit but left it b/c it's till fine :-) @#1 autocast complicates things with that analysis but i definitely know what you mean. Think if stasis was in the game or recall with 4 supply(arbiter)! oh my goodness! and yes i kind of forgot storm for some odd reason, but it definitely need to be factored into the equation. Just for the record. Thanks! | ||
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lost_artz
United States366 Posts
FFs are the bane of our early game problems. Rather than actually fix balance in the early game by some other sort of buff for Toss Blizzard simply put a band-aid on the issue in the form of FFs | ||
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TaShadan
Germany1970 Posts
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TaShadan
Germany1970 Posts
On October 20 2012 14:00 17Sphynx17 wrote: But wouldn't it be better to just keep channels open for possible suggestion that might actually work to better it for the sake of everyone? Granted you don't get evrey suggestion as that is just wrong and stupid. But at least it gives more opportunity to brainstorm. Look at Bnet 2.0 changes, they are listening. If the devs really shouldn't listen, they wouldn't have done it either way. So I think there is merit and at least a purpose in trying to reach out to the devs. Who knows, it might actually work and they may actually listen. As long as we are not bashing each other's ideas but rather contributing to a healthy discussion of what the pros and cons of each and every action/change is, we might actually be helping them give us a better gaming experience. Who in the end will be using it anyway? Wouldn't it be us? Yes, we are not experienced balance experts, we are not developers of games yada yada yada.. but still, we are the users and we actually manage to experience what effect their design took on to the experience/game. So it has to count for something. As long as you are not just shouting X unit OP only, then it is worth exploring at least first through discussion and maybe making a custom map as one user suggested to see how it fares (but that its limitations as well). But I hope you get the idea. yes they did "something" but how long did they need? 2 years.... good job blizzard | ||
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fabiano
Brazil4644 Posts
Congratulations on killing a perfect game like BW, we will only be left with LoL and Dota in the end. | ||
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Topdoller
United Kingdom3860 Posts
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bole
Serbia164 Posts
Caster say at casting plenty of times : BUT WHO IS GONNA COME OUT AHEAD ? that is problem SC2 its not clear E sport game you cant see who is clearly wining or losing... Ball path ball vs ball ... hard counters and A move unites like colloss vs wikings mechanic game is bad ... SC2 sucks... i h8 that its like that younger ppl dont know what WC3 micro is or SC BW... This blizzard game sucks first game that truly sucks..  i h8 to say that Sc2 is bad game...it will lest as their expansions i dont see the future of SC2 as SC BW at all or WC3.... i could live through the mod like Blizz dota if they dont fuc k up that to... Starbow and maby some other modes... simply SC2 isnt good game as could be.... i still hope blizzard will listen to the community but i dont know... | ||
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FrogOfWar
Germany1406 Posts
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Frankenberry
Denmark302 Posts
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dragonsuper
Liechtenstein222 Posts
On October 20 2012 21:44 fabiano wrote: Imho it's too late, SC2 has gone way too far in the wrong direction to ever come back. Congratulations on killing a perfect game like BW, we will only be left with LoL and Dota in the end. I AGREE SO MUCH... | ||
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robopork
United States511 Posts
On October 20 2012 21:44 fabiano wrote: Imho it's too late, SC2 has gone way too far in the wrong direction to ever come back. Congratulations on killing a perfect game like BW, we will only be left with LoL and Dota in the end. Yeah man, sc2 is SO dead... http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls4/vod/70653/?set=7&lang= $50k grand prize, a packed stadium in a country where sc2 has the stiffest competition with other esports, and ridiculously aggressive and dynamic games. Not to mention the dramatic story, which was awesome, by the way. Sc2 is soo dead, right? right? lmfao We're just not number one anymore. If you're really worried about it, quit sniffling like a child and go subscribe to another tournament and support the scene. Edit: we're not number one, we're number two. Man, it sucks to be the second most wildly successful esport that surpassed all expectations. It's a real bummer of a gig. You guys are fucking spoiled. | ||
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Andre
Slovenia3523 Posts
That way you make units/spells interesting to observe as well as to use(as it requires skill to use them). Fungal in my opinion should be a delayed-blast effect instead of just popping instantly. EMP a bit slower so you're capable of dodging it. Forcefields are kind of problematic early game when it's almost impossible to counter them. | ||
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malaan
365 Posts
On October 18 2012 09:45 Thaniri wrote: Blizzard doesn't care. Starcraft can't turn the same profit that WoW did. Blizzard seems to be a company, more than a game producer. They care about maximizing profits, not necessarily making a good game. Wrath of the lich, cataclysm, diablo 3, many aspects of sc2, and finally mists of pandaria all together combine to prove that blizzard is chasing dollars. Blizzard needs to FIRST go back to WC3 style battle.net. With the same type of chat, customs games, and profiles, THEN BEGIN TO BALANCE. With the fundamental anti-social aspect of battle.net 0.2, it does not matter how good your game is, because people wont be playing with their friends. First of all. Blizzard is not the problem. The developers and people working on SC2 are not the root of the problem either... It's the publishers. Activision is ran by Kotick, who is well known for franchise destroying and profit maximising They put the pressure on the team to make the game more profitable, not more competitive. The social side of SC2 is really bad, which means games that have much better social elements (take LoL for example) are getting more popular than ever, and being F2P when SC2 still costs £50~ 2 years after launch. | ||
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anon734912
South Africa19 Posts
On October 21 2012 05:39 robopork wrote:Yeah man, sc2 is SO dead... http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls4/vod/70653/?set=7&lang= $50k grand prize, a packed stadium in a country where sc2 has the stiffest competition with other esports, and ridiculously aggressive and dynamic games. Not to mention the dramatic story, which was awesome, by the way. Sc2 is soo dead, right? right? lmfao We're just not number one anymore. If you're really worried about it, quit sniffling like a child and go subscribe to another tournament and support the scene. Edit: we're not number one, we're number two. Man, it sucks to be the second most wildly successful esport that surpassed all expectations. It's a real bummer of a gig. You guys are fucking spoiled. LoL and DOTA2 both give out $1mil in prizes. Of course it isn't dead, but it isn't number one, or even number two. DOTA2 isn't even out yet, and is arguably already bigger. "second most wildly successful esport that surpassed all expectations." This is just plain wrong. During beta and previews 2008-2010, we expected so much more. We expected the whole world to explode like Korea did with BW. So no, SC2 has not "surpassed all expectations". It hasn't even come close to half of them; one of the biggest being custom game support - which in Warcraft 3 SPAWNED A GENRE, a genre that is now bigger than SC2. Just imagine what could have come from SC2's amazing engine... | ||
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anon734912
South Africa19 Posts
On October 21 2012 05:58 malaan wrote:First of all. Blizzard is not the problem. The developers and people working on SC2 are not the root of the problem either... It's the publishers. Activision is ran by Kotick, who is well known for franchise destroying and profit maximising They put the pressure on the team to make the game more profitable, not more competitive. The social side of SC2 is really bad, which means games that have much better social elements (take LoL for example) are getting more popular than ever, and being F2P when SC2 still costs £50~ 2 years after launch. Agreed. It has served Activision very well to release a sparkling new Call of Duty every year, but the quality we have come to expect from Blizzard simply doesn't fit that mould. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
On October 21 2012 05:59 anon734912 wrote: LoL and DOTA2 both give out $1mil in prizes. Of course it isn't dead, but it isn't number one, or even number two. DOTA2 isn't even out yet, and is arguably already bigger. "second most wildly successful esport that surpassed all expectations." This is just plain wrong. During beta and previews 2008-2010, we expected so much more. We expected the whole world to explode like Korea did with BW. So no, SC2 has not "surpassed all expectations". It hasn't even come close to half of them; one of the biggest being custom game support - which in Warcraft 3 SPAWNED A GENRE, a genre that is now bigger than SC2. Just imagine what could have come from SC2's amazing engine... LOL and Dota give out $1m prizes SPLIT between 5 people. That's because the companies that make them have more money to give as the rip people off with microtransactions. | ||
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fabiano
Brazil4644 Posts
On October 21 2012 05:39 robopork wrote: Yeah man, sc2 is SO dead... http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls4/vod/70653/?set=7&lang= $50k grand prize, a packed stadium in a country where sc2 has the stiffest competition with other esports, and ridiculously aggressive and dynamic games. Not to mention the dramatic story, which was awesome, by the way. Sc2 is soo dead, right? right? lmfao We're just not number one anymore. If you're really worried about it, quit sniffling like a child and go subscribe to another tournament and support the scene. Edit: we're not number one, we're number two. Man, it sucks to be the second most wildly successful esport that surpassed all expectations. It's a real bummer of a gig. You guys are fucking spoiled. Ok, say whatever you want... can't wait to see how magically they are going to fix the problems stated in the OP and many other places. | ||
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anon734912
South Africa19 Posts
On October 21 2012 06:03 Qikz wrote: LOL and Dota give out $1m prizes SPLIT between 5 people. That's because the companies that make them have more money to give as the rip people off with microtransactions. 1mil/5 = 200000, which is still 4 times more than your 50k. How are microtransactions "ripoffs"? You pay for something novel like a new skin. You don't have to buy it. Moreover, if you play enough (like progamers probably will), you can afford skins and heroes using the ingame currency. If anything, SC2 players are ripped off for having to dish out $60 x 3 games, whereas in every single Blizzard RTS before this we paid less for 3-4 campaigns per game. Oh and, Blizzard Activision is literalling SWIMMING in all their money. They have so much more that they could give than Riot/Valve, it's not actually funny. | ||
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