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I want you to play PvT PvP and PvZ without using forcefields or sentries and see the effects. You'll be wanting a buff of course. But buffing has other impacts.
I'm a low-mid diamond protoss player, I've got pitiful apm(60), I miss anywhere from 5-15 probes and 2-3 pylons every single game, and I haven't built a sentry in my last 20-30 games, and probably not more than 3 in one game in well over 6 months. My average game time is something like 15-20 min (i'm not 4 gating or cannon rushing games away), about average for my league. It's also worth mentioning that, as of last attempt, i'm a upper plat zerg and a gold terran.
I don't really feel like zealots or stalkers are all that UP, so long as you have good positioning, even or better upgrades, and similar army sizes/values.
I don't think you could argue that I'd be masters with good sentry control, and It seems pretty clear that I'm not doing any insane blink micro/unit dancing with my 1 click/ second. Maybe something huge changes between dia and masters or GM, but with the current semi-random ladder matchmaking I've played a few low masters and done fine. I accept I'm not good enough to theorycraft reasons and what not, I just haven't felt my units were all that much worse than any other races T1.
Maybe we're just a minutely small numbers buff from zealot stalker being a viable early and mid game composition at all levels.
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United States7483 Posts
On October 19 2012 10:31 oOOoOphidian wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 09:33 Whitewing wrote:On October 19 2012 08:23 Mo0Rauder wrote:
*Opinion* on how to fix HoTS/Toss:
1) Carrier; bring back the same leash micro with interceptors as was in BW.. This in itself will solve some issues regarding people who complain about the boring build-up to colossus fights and their quick outcome, as there would be more people playing stargate builds. Which have more mid-game flavor than the buildup and 3 basing that can occur in the colossus wars. (imo colossus is cool anyway but that's just me and I can understand why some people hate the unit.)
2) Forcefield; Probably the most broken/annoying thing about playing/facing toss for a million reasons discussed in this thread. IMO queens should be able to knock down a FF, this would allow zergs to better deal with the immortal timing push that is probably the silliest thing in the game currently. This would also add an incentive for micro regarding sniping/protecting/knocking down ff's with queens, and perhaps would add an interesting dynamic for a mass queenstyle/roach defensive style vs the immortal sentry builds since queens would also be good vs stargate style.
3) Paid Name Changes; I think everyone agrees with this, anyone who doesn't feel free to voice your opinion on the matter and be slaughtered by 1000 flamers.
The immortal FF push is done so frequently because the alternative is to play a super hard ultra turtle macro game vs. the zerg super army and either get a perfect vortex or auto-die. Protoss needs a stronger ability to pressure without going all-in, while not strengthening the all-ins, and a better ability to deal with the BL/infestor death push. Yes the push is very strong and hard to stop, but if you take that away without fixing toss elsewhere to give them strong pressure, you've actually just guaranteed that every ZvP is a zerg rush to broods with super economy and Protoss getting rolled before they can actually deal with that composition. You act as though Recall doesn't exist in HotS. Have you played it?
Of course it exists, but it's not available frequently. You get 1 pressure timing then back off, you can't be constantly aggressive with it. Watch TvZ: terran is doing constant pushes, zerg defends and cleans it up, then the next wave walks out of terran's base. If it's MVPSC style, it's even more aggressive. Recall will help obviously, but it won't make it to the point where the matchup feels as awesome as TvZ.
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United States7483 Posts
On October 19 2012 12:08 Artisian wrote:Show nested quote +I want you to play PvT PvP and PvZ without using forcefields or sentries and see the effects. You'll be wanting a buff of course. But buffing has other impacts. I'm a low-mid diamond protoss player, I've got pitiful apm(60), I miss anywhere from 5-15 probes and 2-3 pylons every single game, and I haven't built a sentry in my last 20-30 games, and probably not more than 3 in one game in well over 6 months. My average game time is something like 15-20 min (i'm not 4 gating or cannon rushing games away), about average for my league. It's also worth mentioning that, as of last attempt, i'm a upper plat zerg and a gold terran. I don't really feel like zealots or stalkers are all that UP, so long as you have good positioning, even or better upgrades, and similar army sizes/values.I don't think you could argue that I'd be masters with good sentry control, and It seems pretty clear that I'm not doing any insane blink micro/unit dancing with my 1 click/ second. Maybe something huge changes between dia and masters or GM, but with the current semi-random ladder matchmaking I've played a few low masters and done fine. I accept I'm not good enough to theorycraft reasons and what not, I just haven't felt my units were all that much worse than any other races T1. Maybe we're just a minutely small numbers buff from zealot stalker being a viable early and mid game composition at all levels.
At the low-mid diamond levels you can probably get away with it, but when you get to masters you kinda just die without sentries. You absolutely have to have guardian shield for a lot of the fights, and forcefield is almost necessary to survive the initial stim/medivac timing.
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They did more or less completely reinvent wc3 with tft, almost totally overhauling how the armor/attack type system worked. A total reboot on sc2 might be a good idea.
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On October 18 2012 18:04 jworld wrote:
I don’t see forcefields as game breaking as you make out. Terran gets to repair bunkers, stim then dropships and ultimately ghosts so forcefields in that matchup are fine as they progressively lose their power as the games go on which is a good thing in my opinion. Give Zerg something to help them against forcefields in mid game by giving them something in lair tech because at the moment hydras are useless other than for all ins.
The EMP/feedback dynamic is favoured for protoss in my opinion and blanket EMPing shouldn’t happen unless the protoss is the weaker player. However I do agree that it is unforgiving and a poor engagement will decide the game. This isn’t because of the EMP though more the insane dps of stimmed bio.
I agree with removing fungal though as it ruins late game in all matchups. Mass fungals and mass infested terrans make for a boring late game and when coupled with broodlords are too powerful.
In my opinion Roaches and Marauders are what hurts sc2 unit interactions and makes games uninteresting and should be removed. The units are boring and too strong for their cost, early availability and ease of use.
While I respect Gretorp's OP and the opinions that say things are wrong (in WOL something is definitely wrong), I feel like this post I quote by jworld is probably more accurate than the OP. And anyway HotS is on it's way to making the game much better.
Overall, support and caster units have ALWAYS been the key to making SC1 and SC2 cool games. What would BroodWar be without defiler's plague + dark swarm + consume? I mean seriously, that combo sounds so broken. But it worked. Sci vessels? Medics? Lurkers? High templars? Arbiters? Reavers? Those units helped define the game.
Why can't sentries, high templars, ghosts, and infestors help define this one (with a tweak here or there, or a new unit in an expansion)? I think it can be done.
Regarding this post:
About the PvZ FF "problem", swarm hosts are exactly that answer. Blizzard is making the right move there in the design I believe. If Z goes early swarm hosts, P has to defend heavily if he's making a ground army. This unit shuts down sentry/immortal 2 base pushes I am fairly certain, despite what changes may come.
Agreed totally about the late game mass fungal/infested terrans being a problem with Broodlords (and spines). It's a worse problem PvZ of course, and vortex is a bad answer. But luckily it's just been a band-aid, and tempests are going to be the real answer here if done right (probably with a good support spell on the Oracle). TvZ, infestor broodlord is surely powerful, but T has more wiggle room.
Roaches are definitely too powerful ZvP in certain points of the game. If P can get something to better defend roaches besides a very specific sentry, immortal composition (think about it, voidrays/1-2 colossus/templar tech just tickle them before they kill a nexus and retreat), then we can make progress there. Maybe the MothershipCore or new earlier game tempests could be enough harassment to change things (make Zerg avoid mass midgame roach) but it's way early to tell.
Stimmed bio is certainly a big part of the late game instant win/lose problem with PvT (sure EMP vs Storm is easy to blame, but it's not the whole story by a long shot). The stimmed bio DPS is just so fast and unforgiving... once the battle starts as P you can't split, you can't dodge (OK maybe blink), etc. Maybe the mothership core being a normal part of a P army will allow for escape. Also battle hellions and widow mines mixed with bio are changing things considerably. If this mixed composition becomes the norm, then bio stimmed dps will be lowered as it will occupy less army space. Widow mines give Terran some area control so that they may be able to hit and run. With those two things I just mentioned, maybe late game PvT battles won't just be a one time smash armies together affair.
In conclusion, caster and support units have to be strong for the game to be interesting. HotS has a lot of potential to fill in gaps that are keeping the game from being the best it can be. We just need more micro, less lopsided wins/losses when armies are close on both sides (which can happen if more micro is in the game), and for a few really strong compositions (Broodlord infestor late or sentry immortal early) to have better counters/deterrents.
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Still no response to this post directly by the rock, that amazes me.....come on we want to hear what you have to say about this post
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On October 19 2012 12:48 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 10:31 oOOoOphidian wrote:On October 19 2012 09:33 Whitewing wrote:On October 19 2012 08:23 Mo0Rauder wrote:
*Opinion* on how to fix HoTS/Toss:
1) Carrier; bring back the same leash micro with interceptors as was in BW.. This in itself will solve some issues regarding people who complain about the boring build-up to colossus fights and their quick outcome, as there would be more people playing stargate builds. Which have more mid-game flavor than the buildup and 3 basing that can occur in the colossus wars. (imo colossus is cool anyway but that's just me and I can understand why some people hate the unit.)
2) Forcefield; Probably the most broken/annoying thing about playing/facing toss for a million reasons discussed in this thread. IMO queens should be able to knock down a FF, this would allow zergs to better deal with the immortal timing push that is probably the silliest thing in the game currently. This would also add an incentive for micro regarding sniping/protecting/knocking down ff's with queens, and perhaps would add an interesting dynamic for a mass queenstyle/roach defensive style vs the immortal sentry builds since queens would also be good vs stargate style.
3) Paid Name Changes; I think everyone agrees with this, anyone who doesn't feel free to voice your opinion on the matter and be slaughtered by 1000 flamers.
The immortal FF push is done so frequently because the alternative is to play a super hard ultra turtle macro game vs. the zerg super army and either get a perfect vortex or auto-die. Protoss needs a stronger ability to pressure without going all-in, while not strengthening the all-ins, and a better ability to deal with the BL/infestor death push. Yes the push is very strong and hard to stop, but if you take that away without fixing toss elsewhere to give them strong pressure, you've actually just guaranteed that every ZvP is a zerg rush to broods with super economy and Protoss getting rolled before they can actually deal with that composition. You act as though Recall doesn't exist in HotS. Have you played it? Of course it exists, but it's not available frequently. You get 1 pressure timing then back off, you can't be constantly aggressive with it. Watch TvZ: terran is doing constant pushes, zerg defends and cleans it up, then the next wave walks out of terran's base. If it's MVPSC style, it's even more aggressive. Recall will help obviously, but it won't make it to the point where the matchup feels as awesome as TvZ.
You can be constantly aggressive with recall. Many players already do it. In fact, some players are capable of doing such aggressive timings without even needing Recall. Have you seen SsonLighT play? I always worry when people want the game to be massively changed based on low level players (like foreigners) when those problems don't exist for skilled players.
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On October 19 2012 13:27 Blacklizard wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2012 18:04 jworld wrote:
I don’t see forcefields as game breaking as you make out. Terran gets to repair bunkers, stim then dropships and ultimately ghosts so forcefields in that matchup are fine as they progressively lose their power as the games go on which is a good thing in my opinion. Give Zerg something to help them against forcefields in mid game by giving them something in lair tech because at the moment hydras are useless other than for all ins.
The EMP/feedback dynamic is favoured for protoss in my opinion and blanket EMPing shouldn’t happen unless the protoss is the weaker player. However I do agree that it is unforgiving and a poor engagement will decide the game. This isn’t because of the EMP though more the insane dps of stimmed bio.
I agree with removing fungal though as it ruins late game in all matchups. Mass fungals and mass infested terrans make for a boring late game and when coupled with broodlords are too powerful.
In my opinion Roaches and Marauders are what hurts sc2 unit interactions and makes games uninteresting and should be removed. The units are boring and too strong for their cost, early availability and ease of use.
While I respect Gretorp's OP and the opinions that say things are wrong (in WOL something is definitely wrong), I feel like this post I quote by jworld is probably more accurate than the OP. And anyway HotS is on it's way to making the game much better. Overall, support and caster units have ALWAYS been the key to making SC1 and SC2 cool games. What would BroodWar be without defiler's plague + dark swarm + consume? I mean seriously, that combo sounds so broken. But it worked. Sci vessels? Medics? Lurkers? High templars? Arbiters? Reavers? Those units helped define the game. Why can't sentries, high templars, ghosts, and infestors help define this one (with a tweak here or there, or a new unit in an expansion)? I think it can be done. Regarding this post: About the PvZ FF "problem", swarm hosts are exactly that answer. Blizzard is making the right move there in the design I believe. If Z goes early swarm hosts, P has to defend heavily if he's making a ground army. This unit shuts down sentry/immortal 2 base pushes I am fairly certain, despite what changes may come. Agreed totally about the late game mass fungal/infested terrans being a problem with Broodlords (and spines). It's a worse problem PvZ of course, and vortex is a bad answer. But luckily it's just been a band-aid, and tempests are going to be the real answer here if done right (probably with a good support spell on the Oracle). TvZ, infestor broodlord is surely powerful, but T has more wiggle room. Roaches are definitely too powerful ZvP in certain points of the game. If P can get something to better defend roaches besides a very specific sentry, immortal composition (think about it, voidrays/1-2 colossus/templar tech just tickle them before they kill a nexus and retreat), then we can make progress there. Maybe the MothershipCore or new earlier game tempests could be enough harassment to change things (make Zerg avoid mass midgame roach) but it's way early to tell. Stimmed bio is certainly a big part of the late game instant win/lose problem with PvT (sure EMP vs Storm is easy to blame, but it's not the whole story by a long shot). The stimmed bio DPS is just so fast and unforgiving... once the battle starts as P you can't split, you can't dodge (OK maybe blink), etc. Maybe the mothership core being a normal part of a P army will allow for escape. Also battle hellions and widow mines mixed with bio are changing things considerably. If this mixed composition becomes the norm, then bio stimmed dps will be lowered as it will occupy less army space. Widow mines give Terran some area control so that they may be able to hit and run. With those two things I just mentioned, maybe late game PvT battles won't just be a one time smash armies together affair. In conclusion, caster and support units have to be strong for the game to be interesting. HotS has a lot of potential to fill in gaps that are keeping the game from being the best it can be. We just need more micro, less lopsided wins/losses when armies are close on both sides (which can happen if more micro is in the game), and for a few really strong compositions (Broodlord infestor late or sentry immortal early) to have better counters/deterrents.
The fact remains that sentries are a flat necessity in PvZ the jenga tower of balance tweaks can't be moved. Since a new game is coming out, it's a perfect opportunity to make drastic changes and I would love to see new ways of doing forcefield to allow players to DO SOMETHING ELSE, even though I seriously love me some forcefield. I think guardian shield is fine. It's not a tech choice (always cyber) and it's easy to sandbag 100 gas for a guy you need waiting around for a big fight.
There are infinite cool and concise ways to put a spin on the problem spells, Gretorp's suggestions being a decent pass taken as a group. It's definitely a failure on Blizzard's part that they can't come up with design tweaks (I don't think it's just unwillingness) -- that these design problems existed in the first place. But once the WoL train was rolling their hands were tied because balance was paramount and design changes blow everything to pieces. Which is all the more reason why this is a vital opportunity that can't be missed.
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On October 19 2012 13:40 TheLunatic wrote:
Still no response to this post directly by the rock, that amazes me.....come on we want to hear what you have to say about this post
Good posts speaks for themselves. There isn't anything besides the obvious the devs can respond to this. The obvious being "thanks for the good post, we will discuss".
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They usually say what parts they agree with and what parts they disagree with, this is what I'm interested in
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United States7483 Posts
On October 19 2012 13:56 oOOoOphidian wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 12:48 Whitewing wrote:On October 19 2012 10:31 oOOoOphidian wrote:On October 19 2012 09:33 Whitewing wrote:On October 19 2012 08:23 Mo0Rauder wrote:
*Opinion* on how to fix HoTS/Toss:
1) Carrier; bring back the same leash micro with interceptors as was in BW.. This in itself will solve some issues regarding people who complain about the boring build-up to colossus fights and their quick outcome, as there would be more people playing stargate builds. Which have more mid-game flavor than the buildup and 3 basing that can occur in the colossus wars. (imo colossus is cool anyway but that's just me and I can understand why some people hate the unit.)
2) Forcefield; Probably the most broken/annoying thing about playing/facing toss for a million reasons discussed in this thread. IMO queens should be able to knock down a FF, this would allow zergs to better deal with the immortal timing push that is probably the silliest thing in the game currently. This would also add an incentive for micro regarding sniping/protecting/knocking down ff's with queens, and perhaps would add an interesting dynamic for a mass queenstyle/roach defensive style vs the immortal sentry builds since queens would also be good vs stargate style.
3) Paid Name Changes; I think everyone agrees with this, anyone who doesn't feel free to voice your opinion on the matter and be slaughtered by 1000 flamers.
The immortal FF push is done so frequently because the alternative is to play a super hard ultra turtle macro game vs. the zerg super army and either get a perfect vortex or auto-die. Protoss needs a stronger ability to pressure without going all-in, while not strengthening the all-ins, and a better ability to deal with the BL/infestor death push. Yes the push is very strong and hard to stop, but if you take that away without fixing toss elsewhere to give them strong pressure, you've actually just guaranteed that every ZvP is a zerg rush to broods with super economy and Protoss getting rolled before they can actually deal with that composition. You act as though Recall doesn't exist in HotS. Have you played it? Of course it exists, but it's not available frequently. You get 1 pressure timing then back off, you can't be constantly aggressive with it. Watch TvZ: terran is doing constant pushes, zerg defends and cleans it up, then the next wave walks out of terran's base. If it's MVPSC style, it's even more aggressive. Recall will help obviously, but it won't make it to the point where the matchup feels as awesome as TvZ. You can be constantly aggressive with recall. Many players already do it. In fact, some players are capable of doing such aggressive timings without even needing Recall. Have you seen SsonLighT play? I always worry when people want the game to be massively changed based on low level players (like foreigners) when those problems don't exist for skilled players.
Watch some Code S PvZ's lately, they are almost always either a 2 base all-in (usually sentry immortal) or Protoss turtling on 3 bases, taking a fourth, and then trying to be aggressive after broodlord infestor is out while avoiding the army and teching to mothership.
That's not being aggressive constantly through the game, that's letting zerg get to end game then saying "I can't fight your army so I'm going to give you the run-around until I can trade inefficiently with your army, but you can't reinforce so it's okay."
That strat isn't all that effective either, just watch the Hero vs. Leenock games from this season, especially the one on antiga.
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Hm thanks for featuring this so that I was able to see it.
What a fantastic write-up, and it puts well a lot of the caveats people have against this anti-micro idea or instant-cast spells that can spell doom and whatnot. The more I watch, the more I do sort of lose the passion. It's nice that SC2 is much more readily accessible, but hm I really don't know, it's just not as.....fun, I guess. There are a lot of things that take the fun and joy out of games, and there's the bit about the lower skill ceiling making it uninteresting to follow etc. It's definitely a hard balance, but I feel like there must be some way to have a game both accessible to the masses and fun to watch because there can be so much variation in play levels.
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On October 19 2012 08:09 Antylamon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 07:30 Umpteen wrote:On October 19 2012 07:13 StoRm_res wrote:On October 19 2012 07:06 Rabiator wrote:On October 18 2012 09:32 Glon wrote:
I think that, more than anything, we should be trying to get blizzard to simply LISTEN more than just propose changes. As far as Gretorps original post I think he focuses too much on the units and not on the clear "general problems" of the game like the "perfect movement", "unlimited unit selection" Those are not problems? The problem is that the game play is rather boring because of the facts he mentioned. We dont want a harder gui, we want more interesting gameplay and units, if you want shitty movement go play bw. We dont have to make a step back just to get a good game Say you're trying to get to the top of a hill, but you accidentally walk too far and go down the other side. Would you still say "Well, I'm not going to take a step back just to get where I want to be; I'll stay here." Say your analogy doesn't apply to this situation... Seriously though, harder gui is an unnecessarily frustrating component. You don't need to make everything god-awful hard to raise the skill cap.
It's not about raising the skill-cap. I know that kind of talk gets thrown around a lot so I understand why you might get that impression. But adjusting unit movement and clumping to make large armies more spread out and take longer to negotiate the map is not 'god-awful', and nor is it 'harder gui'.
Try thinking about it this way.
Suppose the supply limit was 600 instead of 200, and you try to play deathball-style. At any one time, a huge chunk of your army would be doing nothing useful in a fight, right? So a more efficient use of your resources would be to broaden the front of combat and attack elsewhere. Presto, we just broke up the deathball.
The problems with that solution are the time required to get to that point (only very very long games would get to the point where deathball wasn't the most efficient strategy) and the DPS that would be going on (which would be so enormous that everything would be consumed too quickly for player micro to have any meaningful impact).
A better alternative is to spread existing armies out, and make them even more spread out when they try to move quickly. This makes max frontline DPS lower relative to the total health of the army (so they die slower and have more time to manoeuvre) and opens up the possibility of harassing armies on the move with small bands of mobile units.
Do you honestly ever see armies being harrassed as they manoeuvre in WoL? No, because they're
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Intelligent, well thought out post. I'd love to see Gretorp's continued thoughts on all of the match-ups as well as specific ideas.
In my opinion the number one problem for SC2 and HotS is infestor brood lord. This comp is so dominant it already dominates in HotS, such that Zergs like Bly completely disregard new units (both of zerg and the other races) and continue to win by turtling to infestor brood lord. This awful-to-watch, anti-micro stlyle needs to get changed/removed.
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Great initiative Gretorp!
I agree with most of your points and suggested fixes.
Funny how most of it boils down to: fix protoss, lol.
Although I must say that I'm a bit disappointed with other casters and professional players.
It seems like most of them agree that there are major flaws with the game that could easily be
addressed. Yet, very few or none actually speaks up about it.
If you have an opinion and want to change things you should use your right to speak up.
And no - mumbling on your stream that the XvY matchup is "broken" does not count.
A big reason why someone might be afraid to speak up is the mentality of this community.
The notion perpetuated on this forum that you should not whine or complain because it means that you blame your losses on other things than the mistakes you made in the game.
The inability of people to grasp the difference between balance complaints and game design complaints.
Even the forum mods here on TL can't tell the difference.
This is why players like Cloud , Avilo and Jinro gets so much undeserved hate. Sure they bitch and complain, but this should not overshadow the fact that they also have constructive opinions to give about the game.
Check the thread about the latest interview with Cloud for a clear example of what I mean.
Qxc also got some hate when he was blogging about the design problems of the Raven.
I have suggested this before and now I say it again:
Many great games started as mods of other games. Dota and CS for example.
You should start an official mod initiative with the goal to make the multiplayer experience better and and to scale better with mechanics and skills.
The ongoing mods like Starbow and the 6m1g initiative are honorable, but I feel that they are too much like: lets make the game almost exactly as Brood War.
Ideally SC2 should have been built entirely on BW in the sense that the basic game mechanics and core units were the same. SC2 should keep what is good about BW, remove what is bad and still introduce new awesome units and tactics.
Hard goals ...
You should formulate some guidelines like:
- Must keep MBS and unlimited unit selection.
- Keep as many SC2 units as possible.
- Improve defenders advantage.
- Positional advantage must be rewarded more.
- ...
This could achieve several things:
1, Show that it is possible to make the game much better within the frames of the current game engine.
This could prompt Blizzard to make the necessary changes.
2, Create a demand for broadcasted games and tournaments of the custom mod.
In some sense this is crazy, but in my eyes most competitive games are effectively played as mods anyways.
Tournaments have long since removed close spawn positions and led the developments towards bigger maps.
Features like neutral depots are added to essentially balance out the game. (I've won many ladder games with proxy 2 rax into ramp block vs zerg, this shit is imbalanced as hell and I only abuse it when I'm not feeling confident in the matchup).
These maps and map features are not available on the official ladder. They should be.
When GSL and other big tournament organizers started doing this it eventually had the consequence that some of the worst maps were removed from the ladder pool together with close spawns.
Why couldn't a mod have the same effects ?
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Love the idea of ravens with emp and ghosts with widow mines. Super cool
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On October 19 2012 14:54 EatThePath wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 13:27 Blacklizard wrote:On October 18 2012 18:04 jworld wrote:
I don’t see forcefields as game breaking as you make out. Terran gets to repair bunkers, stim then dropships and ultimately ghosts so forcefields in that matchup are fine as they progressively lose their power as the games go on which is a good thing in my opinion. Give Zerg something to help them against forcefields in mid game by giving them something in lair tech because at the moment hydras are useless other than for all ins.
The EMP/feedback dynamic is favoured for protoss in my opinion and blanket EMPing shouldn’t happen unless the protoss is the weaker player. However I do agree that it is unforgiving and a poor engagement will decide the game. This isn’t because of the EMP though more the insane dps of stimmed bio.
I agree with removing fungal though as it ruins late game in all matchups. Mass fungals and mass infested terrans make for a boring late game and when coupled with broodlords are too powerful.
In my opinion Roaches and Marauders are what hurts sc2 unit interactions and makes games uninteresting and should be removed. The units are boring and too strong for their cost, early availability and ease of use.
While I respect Gretorp's OP and the opinions that say things are wrong (in WOL something is definitely wrong), I feel like this post I quote by jworld is probably more accurate than the OP. And anyway HotS is on it's way to making the game much better. Overall, support and caster units have ALWAYS been the key to making SC1 and SC2 cool games. What would BroodWar be without defiler's plague + dark swarm + consume? I mean seriously, that combo sounds so broken. But it worked. Sci vessels? Medics? Lurkers? High templars? Arbiters? Reavers? Those units helped define the game. Why can't sentries, high templars, ghosts, and infestors help define this one (with a tweak here or there, or a new unit in an expansion)? I think it can be done. Regarding this post: About the PvZ FF "problem", swarm hosts are exactly that answer. Blizzard is making the right move there in the design I believe. If Z goes early swarm hosts, P has to defend heavily if he's making a ground army. This unit shuts down sentry/immortal 2 base pushes I am fairly certain, despite what changes may come. Agreed totally about the late game mass fungal/infested terrans being a problem with Broodlords (and spines). It's a worse problem PvZ of course, and vortex is a bad answer. But luckily it's just been a band-aid, and tempests are going to be the real answer here if done right (probably with a good support spell on the Oracle). TvZ, infestor broodlord is surely powerful, but T has more wiggle room. Roaches are definitely too powerful ZvP in certain points of the game. If P can get something to better defend roaches besides a very specific sentry, immortal composition (think about it, voidrays/1-2 colossus/templar tech just tickle them before they kill a nexus and retreat), then we can make progress there. Maybe the MothershipCore or new earlier game tempests could be enough harassment to change things (make Zerg avoid mass midgame roach) but it's way early to tell. Stimmed bio is certainly a big part of the late game instant win/lose problem with PvT (sure EMP vs Storm is easy to blame, but it's not the whole story by a long shot). The stimmed bio DPS is just so fast and unforgiving... once the battle starts as P you can't split, you can't dodge (OK maybe blink), etc. Maybe the mothership core being a normal part of a P army will allow for escape. Also battle hellions and widow mines mixed with bio are changing things considerably. If this mixed composition becomes the norm, then bio stimmed dps will be lowered as it will occupy less army space. Widow mines give Terran some area control so that they may be able to hit and run. With those two things I just mentioned, maybe late game PvT battles won't just be a one time smash armies together affair. In conclusion, caster and support units have to be strong for the game to be interesting. HotS has a lot of potential to fill in gaps that are keeping the game from being the best it can be. We just need more micro, less lopsided wins/losses when armies are close on both sides (which can happen if more micro is in the game), and for a few really strong compositions (Broodlord infestor late or sentry immortal early) to have better counters/deterrents. The fact remains that sentries are a flat necessity in PvZ the jenga tower of balance tweaks can't be moved. Since a new game is coming out, it's a perfect opportunity to make drastic changes and I would love to see new ways of doing forcefield to allow players to DO SOMETHING ELSE, even though I seriously love me some forcefield. I think guardian shield is fine. It's not a tech choice (always cyber) and it's easy to sandbag 100 gas for a guy you need waiting around for a big fight. There are infinite cool and concise ways to put a spin on the problem spells, Gretorp's suggestions being a decent pass taken as a group. It's definitely a failure on Blizzard's part that they can't come up with design tweaks (I don't think it's just unwillingness) -- that these design problems existed in the first place. But once the WoL train was rolling their hands were tied because balance was paramount and design changes blow everything to pieces. Which is all the more reason why this is a vital opportunity that can't be missed.
What’s wrong with having a unit that is key for early game defence and can be used for a powerful all in. It takes skill to use and separates the good players from the great players. See how hard it is to face a Korean protoss all in compared to a foreigner. Yes it can be unforgiving but is not too difficult a skill to use to warrant removing a dynamic aspect of the game which is enjoyable to watch and also having to redesign a whole race. Just give zerg a unit to give them a chance against forcefields before hive tech.
I still think the need to address the marauder and roach is a more pressing issue. Not very fun watching a player right click on a nexus/hatch and watch it die whilst the opponent can’t kill the highly mobile high hp units fast enough. No skill and no enjoyment factor.
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Good stuff
Ignoring forcefield because its such a balance nightmare - I'm not sure if spells are too strong or just too easy. Spells simply net too large of a reward for the minimal skill it takes to use them (talking mechanically here, perhaps not so much tactically). I dont see the problem as so much that games can be decided in seconds by a few spells in the right place, but more that it just really not that impressive to witness. I can think of BW games that were decided almost as quickly, watching somebody get a perfect plague in BW is somewhat different to blanketing a whole army with fungal in SC2. I'm not even sure that overpowering synergies are that problematic as long as it something thats exciting to watch because it requires skills (see shuttle/reaver?).
However, its hard to see how Blizzard can make existing spells more apm intensive without the removal of smart casting and I can understand why they put it in the first place and why they'd be very reluctant to remove it. A possible solution might be to nerf existing spells so the reward is more in line with their ease of use, but I still think that leaves this problem where apm is sort of a forgotten resource, and not just in respect to spell casting. (Macro mechanics were a good idea for WoL. Lets get some Micro mechanics for HoTS please Blizzard :D)
but yah, I don't envy blizzard's task.
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I really don't like the way that things are going in terms of community figures are raising a point and then attempting to raise their own little mob to ram it down whoever’s throat.
What happened to the days where balance and game design would only be discussed by those in authority and knowledge, those elitist few? Now it seems anyone with a point, in order to prove that point, must raise a mob of tweets, emails, threads. Yet what faith can we put in this mob? The mob literally knows nothing about the point they are endorsing. What authority does this mob have to judge the merits of Gretorp’s, Destiny’s or anyone else’s argument? None.
Yet why is the mob the one with the power – or more accurately, the source of power being exploited here? Think how many people skim read the thread, think ‘hey I know this guy from NASL,’ I’m gonna retweet this to high heaven. It is these people that are being given the power to change SC2 – not the smart elitists that actually know their shit. This will lead, if it hasn't already, to the state where those that can rustle the biggest crowd to hammer on blizzards door will be able to effect whatever changes they see fit.
I'm not disagreeing with the point, far from it - I have no opinion whatsoever. I am literally a bystander.
I thought that the SC scene was the mother of all technocracies, not a mob.
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United Kingdom31935 Posts
Great points! I just hope changes for the best I would even welcome BW units back with open arms
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EPT
