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On October 19 2012 01:03 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 00:59 KingAce wrote:
Fixing protoss involves. Making warpgate a late game tech option. Buffing gateway units, zealots and stalkers. Removing Immortals. Buffing Voidrays. Removing dark shrine. Looks good but why remove Immortals? They consistently rank as one of the most beloved unit amongst  players. The only change that's needed is to put an upper cap on Harden Shield (for example, each invocation negates AT MOST 20 damage so they don't hard-hard counter mech and weapons upgrades would actually be useful).
Because immortals serve as a "hero" unit. If you have experience with Brood War you would know that "hero" type units aren't required to have a balanced game.
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On October 19 2012 01:05 frostalgia wrote:
I really enjoy forcefield micro, even if it's not always the most complex thing to do, it does reward those who pull them off.
Medivacs picking up units, or Burrow movement, are ways to dodge forcefields. Also theres always massive units.
I think the Sentry could be indirectly nerfed by giving another unit like the Oracle a support ability that competes with FF/Guardian Shield.
My suggestion is a Shield Battery that works on single units, which would be used to help expensive units like a colossus or a tempest make it out of the front lines if they're being focused down, or even on a building as well.
This provides more battle micro, which can make it harder to pull off clutch forcefields for some players.
It's also just not fun to watch slow expensive units die so quickly so often.. a support ability would make for really interesting micro, which would require players to be quick to catch their units with the shield battery before they die.
That's "if" you can get a massive unit Terran don't usually have the minerals for third and why would you get one when template could just feed back it? The whole "massive" crushes forcefields thing is retarded as well. Blizzard really needs to remove the whole "hero unit" concept.
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Gretorp I think your suggestions are great. I'm a little Zerg biased as that is my main race, but I see forcefield and vortex as anti-fun spells. I can understand why fungal is anti-fun as well. Hopefully somebody from blizzard reads this.
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I agree 100% with your suggestions Gretorp. Implementing all of these might be too big of a change for Blizzard to be comfortable making, but at the very least fungal and forcefield should no longer entirely negate movement and vortex should be removed. I can't imagine these changes would do anything but good for the metagame, providing the game is balanced after they are implemented.
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On October 19 2012 03:08 BlazeFury01 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 01:03 SarcasmMonster wrote:On October 19 2012 00:59 KingAce wrote:
Fixing protoss involves. Making warpgate a late game tech option. Buffing gateway units, zealots and stalkers. Removing Immortals. Buffing Voidrays. Removing dark shrine. Looks good but why remove Immortals? They consistently rank as one of the most beloved unit amongst players. The only change that's needed is to put an upper cap on Harden Shield (for example, each invocation negates AT MOST 20 damage so they don't hard-hard counter mech and weapons upgrades would actually be useful). Because immortals serve as a "hero" unit. If you have experience with Brood War you would know that "hero" type units aren't required to have a balanced game.
Help me out here. How is the Immortal (or even a nerfed Immortal following my suggestion) a Hero unit?
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On October 19 2012 03:32 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 03:08 BlazeFury01 wrote:On October 19 2012 01:03 SarcasmMonster wrote:On October 19 2012 00:59 KingAce wrote:
Fixing protoss involves. Making warpgate a late game tech option. Buffing gateway units, zealots and stalkers. Removing Immortals. Buffing Voidrays. Removing dark shrine. Looks good but why remove Immortals? They consistently rank as one of the most beloved unit amongst players. The only change that's needed is to put an upper cap on Harden Shield (for example, each invocation negates AT MOST 20 damage so they don't hard-hard counter mech and weapons upgrades would actually be useful). Because immortals serve as a "hero" unit. If you have experience with Brood War you would know that "hero" type units aren't required to have a balanced game. Help me out here. How is the Immortal (or even a nerfed Immortal following my suggestion) a Hero unit?
Because in this community, "hero unit" is a hot phrase used as an unfocused critique of SC2 in general. See e.g. "deathball."
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On October 19 2012 03:12 BlazeFury01 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 01:05 frostalgia wrote:
I really enjoy forcefield micro, even if it's not always the most complex thing to do, it does reward those who pull them off.
Medivacs picking up units, or Burrow movement, are ways to dodge forcefields. Also theres always massive units.
I think the Sentry could be indirectly nerfed by giving another unit like the Oracle a support ability that competes with FF/Guardian Shield.
My suggestion is a Shield Battery that works on single units, which would be used to help expensive units like a colossus or a tempest make it out of the front lines if they're being focused down, or even on a building as well.
This provides more battle micro, which can make it harder to pull off clutch forcefields for some players.
It's also just not fun to watch slow expensive units die so quickly so often.. a support ability would make for really interesting micro, which would require players to be quick to catch their units with the shield battery before they die. That's "if" you can get a massive unit Terran don't usually have the minerals for third and why would you get one when template could just feed back it? The whole "massive" crushes forcefields thing is retarded as well. Blizzard really needs to remove the whole "hero unit" concept.
Not a HERO unit.. And I'm pretty familliar with my favorite game bw
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Besides the fact the immortal is a braindead unit, it also pisses all over mech. It's boring and a thorn in SC 2's side.
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The immortal hating is pretty weird. The worst thing I can say about it is that like many SC2 units, it suffers from being too good against the units it counters (e.g. tanks) and a complete joke against the units that counter it (e.g. marines). Many of the counters in SC2 are simply too sharp, and the game would be better if Blizzard made an effort to look into toning some of them down.
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On October 19 2012 03:58 kcdc wrote:
The immortal hating is pretty weird. The worst thing I can say about it is that like many SC2 units, it suffers from being too good against the units it counters (e.g. tanks) and a complete joke against the units that counter it (e.g. marines). Many of the counters in SC2 are simply too sharp, and the game would be better if Blizzard made an effort to look into toning some of them down.
Would it really be a better game if the counters weren't as sharp as they are right now? In my opinion the counters couldn't be sharp enough.
Look at "rock - paper - scissors". Razor sharp counters, awesome game design. Has been successfull for thousands of years.
True story.
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Ghosts planting widow mines would be awesome.
Raven having emp would be awesome.
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On October 19 2012 04:04 enemy2010 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 03:58 kcdc wrote:
The immortal hating is pretty weird. The worst thing I can say about it is that like many SC2 units, it suffers from being too good against the units it counters (e.g. tanks) and a complete joke against the units that counter it (e.g. marines). Many of the counters in SC2 are simply too sharp, and the game would be better if Blizzard made an effort to look into toning some of them down. Would it really be a better game if the counters weren't as sharp as they are right now? In my opinion the counters couldn't be sharp enough. Look at "rock - paper - scissors". Razor sharp counters, awesome game design. Has been successfull for thousands of years. True story.
Good point. Forget SC2. I'm gonna go play PvP...er...I mean Rock Paper Scissors.
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On October 19 2012 00:05 DarkSeth wrote:
This thread represents everything that is wrong with the gaming scene nowadays. The consumers demand to be heard. It is this that destroys franchises, not the corporations wish to make money. You can whine and complain as much as you want about how Blizzard turned into an arrogant game developer that does not listen, and are completely ignorant to consumer feedback (which they are not). They still have MUCH more experience in designing, creating, and balancing games than anyone in this thread with MAYBE an exception or two. So for the love of God, cut them some slack. Blizzard has delivered so many times, it is revolting to see this lack of faith. Most of the mistakes they make are because of their attempt to please the masses, which will never achieve the best possible result, because the average person is actually not that bright.
Remember all those games that blew you away? That were so innovating and fresh they made your jaw drop in awe? Odds are you never tried to influence how that game would turn out. Odds are you TRUSTED the developer to deliver a good game. Odds are it took you by surprise, because you did not have a list of what YOU wanted in the game.
Now, I am not saying that the SC2 team at Blizzard is perfect, but they are damn far from as incompetent as many of you paint them out to be. In most cases Blizzard delivers, and sitting here reading post upon post about how broken SC2 is, is fucking infuriating. Many of you are so obscenely focused on finding something negative to point out that you are no longer capable of even enjoying the game, being caught up in your crusade to change the game into your own liking. Many of you are so obscenely focused on whining that in lack of something to actually complain about you just jump on the bandwagon, completely clueless as to what you are actually advocating. That being said, there are off course a lot of good ideas, and well thought through feedback. Sadly much of it disappears in the ocean of near aggressive complaints.
I am going to have to stop here. I could go on and on about the problems with forums, and consumer feedback, so I will leave you with this. Do not forget what brought you to the game to begin with. What made you spend hours playing. What gave you all the entertainment you undoubtedly have had. Do not forget that when it all boils down, every game designer and programmer do what they do because they love games, and because they want to create something that will be appreciated and enjoyed.
I agree to most of what you write as well as to most of Gretorp's suggestions.
I think while Gretorp's delivers some well though-out suggestions, he still doesn't have the information like David Kim or any of his co-workers. Players and developers perceive the game very differently.
When Blizzard is wrong, they should be told so. But Blizzard does need the courage to make decisions which are not liked by the majority of the community if there is a good reason for that decision, even though it is may be extremely hard to explain to a player or watcher or caster.
I have great respect for Gretorp's work, but I have even more respect for Blizzards game designers.
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Forcefield to MSC! 
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Damn Gretorp, these are actually some really solid ideas, good call man. I like the FF change a lot.
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This makes alot of sense! Hope to see some real changes come through!
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TY GRETORP!
Please continue putting the time in your great thoughts and ideas
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I agree for the most part but I think Concussive Shell needs to go. It is another instrument that forces players to deathball rather than engage in small fights around the map
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No matter how Blizzard reacts, someone is going to be pissed. Everyone complains about something in the SC2. Blizzard WILL NOT make BW 2.0. Honestly, I don't want them to. I got bored of BW, because towards the end of its run, it was very similar games, everyone knew what worked and what didn't. Rarely was I blown away by crazy builds late in the life of BW. like TvP, Terran ALWAYS went mech..... and I got tired of that monotony. I like that Blizzard is trying to make multiple builds viable instead of just rehashing BW.
SC2 isn't perfect, not by any means and I would agree with much needed changing (like I feel that Protoss is getting 10 feet of rebar rammed up their ass in HOTS. but whatever).
I just don't think people constantly complaining about the balance of the game is going to fix it. I'm glad they are listening to the changes but they are also giving their own take on the game. It isn't done, but I am confident that they won't ruin the game.
Everyone made many of the same complains during WoL's beta (1 supply roaches, broken maps, crazy siege tank damage etc.) I just don't think balance wise, the game should be compared to BW. (except carrier, because that's honestly the best way to fix it imo). Its a new game, with new builds, controls and micro. Saying you want bad pathing and dumb units is just ridiculous. No developer in their right mind is going to make units stupid just so players work harder.
THey create new mechanics that create equally high level of play without making pro's fight with the game itself, which is pretty much what the BW's pros had to do.
Note: I am not directing this at the OP, merely the general swath of comments i"ve read in the thread
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On October 18 2012 09:32 Glon wrote:
I think that, more than anything, we should be trying to get blizzard to simply LISTEN more than just propose changes.
The problem isnt to make them listen, but rather to act ... which includes admitting to having made bad choices as Blizzard devs. With the "stellar" design of Diablo 3 there should be a lot more reaction to the community from Blizzard to reclaim lost ground and this requires them to change things dear to them. If they dont listen then we just need to act and ignore HotS and keep on playing WoL.
As far as Gretorps original post I think he focuses too much on the units and not on the clear "general problems" of the game like the "perfect movement", "unlimited unit selection" and "disparity in production speed boosts between the races". With these problems unsolved it doesnt really matter how the units are going to be changed, although I fully agree with Forcefield and Fungal being rather terrible spells. EMP isnt that bad as it is made up to be.
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EPT
