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On October 19 2012 07:06 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2012 09:32 Glon wrote:
I think that, more than anything, we should be trying to get blizzard to simply LISTEN more than just propose changes. As far as Gretorps original post I think he focuses too much on the units and not on the clear "general problems" of the game like the "perfect movement", "unlimited unit selection"
Those are not problems? The problem is that the game play is rather boring because of the facts he mentioned. We dont want a harder gui, we want more interesting gameplay and units, if you want shitty movement go play bw. We dont have to make a step back just to get a good game
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On October 19 2012 07:13 StoRm_res wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 07:06 Rabiator wrote:On October 18 2012 09:32 Glon wrote:
I think that, more than anything, we should be trying to get blizzard to simply LISTEN more than just propose changes. As far as Gretorps original post I think he focuses too much on the units and not on the clear "general problems" of the game like the "perfect movement", "unlimited unit selection" Those are not problems? The problem is that the game play is rather boring because of the facts he mentioned. We dont want a harder gui, we want more interesting gameplay and units, if you want shitty movement go play bw. We dont have to make a step back just to get a good game
Say you're trying to get to the top of a hill, but you accidentally walk too far and go down the other side. Would you still say "Well, I'm not going to take a step back just to get where I want to be; I'll stay here."
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Finally someone big is mentioning force fields and how protoss is balanced around them.
Respect for Gretorp +255% (yeah, thats FF in hex)
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I agree with your sentiments, but I think thats mostly because I played SC and BW aswell.. A lot of the changes you propose are kind of a return to a BW playstyle I think... And if I recall correctly Blizzard has no intention of making game look like BW.
But still, I have always found the fat weak fagmasters that are SC2 zealots to be painful to watch if you compare them what they used to be.. BTW what do you guys think about taking away concussive shells from marauders and giving them to, lets say, the warhound?
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I don't know much about you Gretorp, but this post alone makes me respect you a lot. This was a very in depth post, summing up all the faults with SC2's design. It even helped me articulate some things I have been thinking about, and made others much more clear.
When I compare the quality of this post with anything DB or DK have been posting about balance and design, I know I would hire Gretorp to manage my game.
Just one question, I would really like to hear your opinion on this one. Do you think warp gate needs redesign to make it more fair/interesting?
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On October 19 2012 07:30 Umpteen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 07:13 StoRm_res wrote:On October 19 2012 07:06 Rabiator wrote:On October 18 2012 09:32 Glon wrote:
I think that, more than anything, we should be trying to get blizzard to simply LISTEN more than just propose changes. As far as Gretorps original post I think he focuses too much on the units and not on the clear "general problems" of the game like the "perfect movement", "unlimited unit selection" Those are not problems? The problem is that the game play is rather boring because of the facts he mentioned. We dont want a harder gui, we want more interesting gameplay and units, if you want shitty movement go play bw. We dont have to make a step back just to get a good game Say you're trying to get to the top of a hill, but you accidentally walk too far and go down the other side. Would you still say "Well, I'm not going to take a step back just to get where I want to be; I'll stay here."
Say your analogy doesn't apply to this situation...
Seriously though, harder gui is an unnecessarily frustrating component. You don't need to make everything god-awful hard to raise the skill cap.
My favorite kind of game is a game that's easy to learn but hard to master, like chess. That's why I didn't like playing BW competitively. In SC2, my passion for competitive gameplay was kindled.
Sure it's gone downhill some, but there's a mountain ahead, ready to be boldly climbed. Blizzard is up to the challenge; we just need to give them a wake-up call.
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Gretorp. I agree 100%
Nerf all spells. Make the game more about raiding, macro, and army placment
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*Opinion* on how to fix HoTS/Toss:
1) Carrier; bring back the same leash micro with interceptors as was in BW.. This in itself will solve some issues regarding people who complain about the boring build-up to colossus fights and their quick outcome, as there would be more people playing stargate builds. Which have more mid-game flavor than the buildup and 3 basing that can occur in the colossus wars. (imo colossus is cool anyway but that's just me and I can understand why some people hate the unit.)
2) Forcefield; Probably the most broken/annoying thing about playing/facing toss for a million reasons discussed in this thread. IMO queens should be able to knock down a FF, this would allow zergs to better deal with the immortal timing push that is probably the silliest thing in the game currently. This would also add an incentive for micro regarding sniping/protecting/knocking down ff's with queens, and perhaps would add an interesting dynamic for a mass queenstyle/roach defensive style vs the immortal sentry builds since queens would also be good vs stargate style.
3) Paid Name Changes; I think everyone agrees with this, anyone who doesn't feel free to voice your opinion on the matter and be slaughtered by 1000 flamers.
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As a protoss player, I was an avid RTS player of SC and WC3:FT until SC2 came out. SC2 grows tiring of force fields determining games in such a massive way. That ONE dynamic is such a large factor in the game from the beginning to the end that it's not worth playing for me anymore. I played RTS games from like 1999-2000 until the beginning of 2012. I guess I should just switch races but I really have no desire to learn another race's nitty details.
I hope these suggestions get seriously considered, although I doubt they ever will be.
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The only issue with the forcefield being a "slow field" is that without the ability to forcefield ramps, PvP goes back to what it was in september of 2011 (4 gate party!)--which is no fun at all. If you reworked the FF to be like that, you'd have to reword the warpgate mechanic, unless you want to break PvP.
Peronally, I think it would be a reasonable idea to give nexus a large "warp in field" (with like 10 range or something) so that you can still use warp in's as a defensive tactic; take away the ability to warp in on pylon fields, but still allow warp prisms to project a "warp in field", so that you could still use the prism as a proxy pylon/harassment tool.
I don't usually like to theory craft, but I think this sounds like an okay idea.
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On October 19 2012 08:09 Antylamon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 07:30 Umpteen wrote:On October 19 2012 07:13 StoRm_res wrote:On October 19 2012 07:06 Rabiator wrote:On October 18 2012 09:32 Glon wrote:
I think that, more than anything, we should be trying to get blizzard to simply LISTEN more than just propose changes. As far as Gretorps original post I think he focuses too much on the units and not on the clear "general problems" of the game like the "perfect movement", "unlimited unit selection" Those are not problems? The problem is that the game play is rather boring because of the facts he mentioned. We dont want a harder gui, we want more interesting gameplay and units, if you want shitty movement go play bw. We dont have to make a step back just to get a good game Say you're trying to get to the top of a hill, but you accidentally walk too far and go down the other side. Would you still say "Well, I'm not going to take a step back just to get where I want to be; I'll stay here." Say your analogy doesn't apply to this situation... Seriously though, harder gui is an unnecessarily frustrating component. You don't need to make everything god-awful hard to raise the skill cap. My favorite kind of game is a game that's easy to learn but hard to master, like chess. That's why I didn't like playing BW competitively. In SC2, my passion for competitive gameplay was kindled. Sure it's gone downhill some, but there's a mountain ahead, ready to be boldly climbed. Blizzard is up to the challenge; we just need to give them a wake-up call.
changing the way units move in groups would not be a step backwards, it would be a huge step forwards.
And it doesn't make anything harder for the poor casuals.
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I too hate forcefields. They're sort of fun to cast, but what's not fun is having them so thoroughly determine the game. "Whoops, I was looking at my base for those 3 seconds; guess I lose," isn't fun anymore. And I'm sure forcefields aren't fun on the opponent's end either.
I want an army that can go toe-to-toe with my opponent without hiding behind a spell so that I can use multiple forces at once and be more active passing through open areas before max. And to get that army, forcefield needs to go or I'll never lose.
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Why not make forcefield a purely defensive ability. Tie it to range of and around a nexus or hell, make it castable by the nexus itself. That way you don't have to totally rebalance the early game.
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United States7483 Posts
On October 19 2012 08:23 Mo0Rauder wrote:
*Opinion* on how to fix HoTS/Toss:
1) Carrier; bring back the same leash micro with interceptors as was in BW.. This in itself will solve some issues regarding people who complain about the boring build-up to colossus fights and their quick outcome, as there would be more people playing stargate builds. Which have more mid-game flavor than the buildup and 3 basing that can occur in the colossus wars. (imo colossus is cool anyway but that's just me and I can understand why some people hate the unit.)
2) Forcefield; Probably the most broken/annoying thing about playing/facing toss for a million reasons discussed in this thread. IMO queens should be able to knock down a FF, this would allow zergs to better deal with the immortal timing push that is probably the silliest thing in the game currently. This would also add an incentive for micro regarding sniping/protecting/knocking down ff's with queens, and perhaps would add an interesting dynamic for a mass queenstyle/roach defensive style vs the immortal sentry builds since queens would also be good vs stargate style.
3) Paid Name Changes; I think everyone agrees with this, anyone who doesn't feel free to voice your opinion on the matter and be slaughtered by 1000 flamers.
The immortal FF push is done so frequently because the alternative is to play a super hard ultra turtle macro game vs. the zerg super army and either get a perfect vortex or auto-die. Protoss needs a stronger ability to pressure without going all-in, while not strengthening the all-ins, and a better ability to deal with the BL/infestor death push.
Yes the push is very strong and hard to stop, but if you take that away without fixing toss elsewhere to give them strong pressure, you've actually just guaranteed that every ZvP is a zerg rush to broods with super economy and Protoss getting rolled before they can actually deal with that composition.
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Great ideas I hope the game changes
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On October 19 2012 09:33 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 08:23 Mo0Rauder wrote:
*Opinion* on how to fix HoTS/Toss:
1) Carrier; bring back the same leash micro with interceptors as was in BW.. This in itself will solve some issues regarding people who complain about the boring build-up to colossus fights and their quick outcome, as there would be more people playing stargate builds. Which have more mid-game flavor than the buildup and 3 basing that can occur in the colossus wars. (imo colossus is cool anyway but that's just me and I can understand why some people hate the unit.)
2) Forcefield; Probably the most broken/annoying thing about playing/facing toss for a million reasons discussed in this thread. IMO queens should be able to knock down a FF, this would allow zergs to better deal with the immortal timing push that is probably the silliest thing in the game currently. This would also add an incentive for micro regarding sniping/protecting/knocking down ff's with queens, and perhaps would add an interesting dynamic for a mass queenstyle/roach defensive style vs the immortal sentry builds since queens would also be good vs stargate style.
3) Paid Name Changes; I think everyone agrees with this, anyone who doesn't feel free to voice your opinion on the matter and be slaughtered by 1000 flamers.
The immortal FF push is done so frequently because the alternative is to play a super hard ultra turtle macro game vs. the zerg super army and either get a perfect vortex or auto-die. Protoss needs a stronger ability to pressure without going all-in, while not strengthening the all-ins, and a better ability to deal with the BL/infestor death push. Yes the push is very strong and hard to stop, but if you take that away without fixing toss elsewhere to give them strong pressure, you've actually just guaranteed that every ZvP is a zerg rush to broods with super economy and Protoss getting rolled before they can actually deal with that composition.
You act as though Recall doesn't exist in HotS. Have you played it?
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most of the problems come with the possibility to MASS caster units in late game scenario's
in a regular mid game, they are fine, because ppl use them as the next tier upgrade and pair them with the already existing units. later on we see a tendency to trade "cheaper" units for more casters
maybe just limit the amount of spell casters which can be made? say 10 infestors (at a time) or 12 ghosts/templars
this would balance out so many things; imagine the old ghost vs zerg! snipe was literally nerfed into the ground because terrans would mass 30 ghosts as a combat unit and not the way they were meant to.
or infestors: when you see zergs incorporate 30 infestors into broodlord armies, because so many infested terrans cover your air even better then regular AA units AND are basicially free
yet still, emp/fungal needs to be strong and (relatively) fast on the damage/effect they cause - i agree though some spells could be reworked, say EMP does a shield/energy "drain" to leave a time window open for the enemy caster unit to use its energy, or storm could do 50 damage and slows attack speed by XX% or so
sentries are a completely different story and so is the mother ship i agree.
but regarding ghosts, templars, ravens and inferstors the mentioned changes would work out with the proper numbers
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1. As a Zerg, fungal should change. A lot. But neural is a great spell imo... Vs T Mech it makes unit positioning so much more important...
2. I think that by nerfing some of the lower tier units, you could fix a lot of the problems of the game. 200\200 roach max, Marine Marauder vs Tier 3 Toss, etc... It would make most of the match-ups more interesting to watch and play.
3. Overall instead of introducing new units the should just dramatically change the existing units so it a legitimate expansion..
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On October 19 2012 00:54 WniO wrote:
forcefields are probably the best new gameplay idea that blizzard put in sc2 what are you talking about? they dont DAMAGE or HEAL or ADD BONUS etc etc - that shit is badass... so you actually have to think somewhat of how to micro and there are multiple ways to use them. cutting army in half/third, delaying, pushing units toward you. NOT just fungal as many as you can! or storm as many as you can! or emp as many as you can!
its one of the few things that as a caster observer player you dont know the outcome of the battle since its how well the player uses the ff's or the opponent baits them. so dont complain about some stupid pushes that you are sick of seeing - weve had these pushes from every race throught sc2s history.
This is pretty much how I feel about Forcefield. I agree that it sucks that Protoss players have to rely on it often and that it causes quite a lot of frustration in all-ins but I would much prefer that they stay in the game mostly unchanged and that the other races get additional ways to deal with them and Protoss gets additional options so that they are not so important.
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I definitely agree with the problems in PvZ. It's become the most boring matchup for me, both to play and to watch. Not sure if I'm ready to condemn ghosts having EMP and the functionality of fungals on infestors.
I wonder though if changing force fields or completely revamping Protoss is realistic at this point, though. I mean hypothetically there could be a fix for sentries that involves modifying the other gateway units. That would seem more in line with what Blizzard seemingly hopes to accomplish with the expansion. I'm definitely fine with getting rid of the mothership (or at least vortex) as long as Protoss has a few other ways to deal with brood lords. Bringing back stasis from BW or adding a spell similar to that might be a good fix; if you think about it stasis acts in a very similar way to vortex but partially nullifies the archon toilet. Or who knows, maybe the tempest will actually be good at sniping brood lords as they float across the map. At any rate archon toilets just are not that fun to watch or play against.
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EPT
