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They are weak in the early game so as to compensate for their strength in timing attacks, and timing attacks are designed to punish vulnerabilities in opponent's build. Gateway units being weak means that protoss itself is very vulnerable to timing attacks at certain phase of the game. I don't get why they want to design a race that is so heavy reliant on build orders at least in the early-mid game.
The way i see it, there are 3 main aspects in starcraft.
- Strategy. Build orders that include tech choice and how you want to balance between army, economy, tech. They are hugely affected by the map layout.
- Tactics. Maneuvering of army. A huge part of this includes on how you deal with your own reinforcements and enemy reinforcements.
- Engagements. Micro.
A huge portion is being removed from protoss gameplay which is why their matchups are relatively boring to watch, including macro games. You don't need to think much to know where to reinforce. It's all reactive. Even protoss' multi-pronged aggression is all about your mechanics, throwing the ball into your opponent's court and letting them deal with it. Whereas with other races, you actually have to think ahead of your opponent. It's 2-way interaction in this case.
Yes the race itself can be balanced, but only towards the direction of strategy. This makes the game stale for both the players and spectators.
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On October 14 2012 00:54 Salient wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2012 00:41 CikaZombi wrote:
The speed of which discussion degenerates in these threads makes me lose more and more hope in the future of SC2. At least in ItWhoSpeeks thread we had some rationality and objective support from other races. I think many of the people replying in this thread are, ironically, missing the point when they state that gateway units can be strong in warpgate timing attacks. The question was whether T1 gateway units are relatively weak (compared to BW or just in general) because the warp gate mechanic would make them too strong otherwise. It's not a coincidence that Protoss rely on timing attacks so much when their core units are balanced around warpgate.
Yup I think that's pretty apparent. It is almost never seen without an all in. There is no coming home from that "aggression", and if you can only defeat an army with constant warp ins at their base it is easy to understand where posts like this have been coming from for the last couple of years. But people don't understand balance from design and game play.
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I think warpgate should allow gateway units to warp in near a nexus only (like 13 range radius around a nexus.)
Also i think sentries forcefield should be changed to an outward burst from the sentry that pushes units back. Better players can wait til the last second and stuff. However you will possibly have to change the statistics of zealots stalkers and sentries because now that they dont have proxy warp in power any more, gateway vs bio or ling roach will no longer have ff's to trade evenly. Could make forcepush a low energy costing ability for sentries and remove FFs. Just an idea i think would work well if tweaked a bit.
Fus Roh Dah!!
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I think the comments by Kim and Browder show a lot of ignorance or arrogance. Even for pros it is a problem for early PvP: there is no defenders advantage and this results in some rather short games where one small mistake can ruin the game. The solution is to remove the cooldown reduction - which you gain through the Warp Gate research - from Warp Gates and put it on Gateways. That way the attacker can warp into the defenders base, but the defender will have the numerical advantage through Gateway production.
The units themselves are ok as they are ... even without removing the Hallucination research.
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If you could actually kite stalkers like you did in BW that would go a huge way to making them much more viable earlier in the game and maybe even be a soft boost against muta packs that unconditionally rape them.
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the gateway units just depend on each other so much which make them weak individually and strong together. But some timings with twilight tech upgrades are so strong.
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Blizzard have tried to buff gate way units before by decreasing the build time. 2 gate zealot pressure was to strong so it was reverted back for the zelot and stalker but they keept for the sentry. Same patch also change root time for spore from 12-6 ( opening void rays was allot better before the patch). Decreased warp gate time also effected pvz in the long run even if it was targeted for pvp.
There is a post on liquid on the changes from the patch:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=216605
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On October 14 2012 01:49 Emuking wrote:
I think warpgate should allow gateway units to warp in near a nexus only (like 13 range radius around a nexus.)
Also i think sentries forcefield should be changed to an outward burst from the sentry that pushes units back. Better players can wait til the last second and stuff. However you will possibly have to change the statistics of zealots stalkers and sentries because now that they dont have proxy warp in power any more, gateway vs bio or ling roach will no longer have ff's to trade evenly. Could make forcepush a low energy costing ability for sentries and remove FFs. Just an idea i think would work well if tweaked a bit.
Fus Roh Dah!!
I've been advocating this for a long time. This is such an easy change and the only effect this will have on the game will be an increased defenders advantage. I don't even think huge changes to gateway units are necessary. Stalker cost maybe could be reduced slightly (like 115/50), to make gateway units slighty better.
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I really do not understand why people want to make gateway units stronger, gateway units are very boring and it is impossible to do anything else but A move with zealots because of the charge mechanic. I think that current game mode is fine and fun, who cares if you need to get T3 units if they make a good game.
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On October 14 2012 04:43 moskonia wrote:
I really do not understand why people want to make gateway units stronger, gateway units are very boring and it is impossible to do anything else but A move with zealots because of the charge mechanic. I think that current game mode is fine and fun, who cares if you need to get T3 units if they make a good game.
In my opinion, the way T1 Gateway units are balanced right now, they are best used as part of a death ball because they are so bad individually or in small groups.
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On October 13 2012 08:49 Cabinet Sanchez wrote:
No, I want them flipped so that there's a tradeoff, a risk / reward. I want more exciting games to watch. I want to see players have to balance between gateways and warpgates and make a tactical decision if they have all gates, all warps or a mix of both. It could make for more exciting battles.
i like this idea. any time you force players to make a choice it is good. well not any time but you know what i mean. and it is logical and seeing people switch gates back and forth as a game goes one would be great. "oh why is he converting those two gates? what is he going to do now?"
but the game is built to be too simple so everyone researches warp as soon as the can and make all their gates warp and that is that
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On October 14 2012 05:02 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2012 04:43 moskonia wrote:
I really do not understand why people want to make gateway units stronger, gateway units are very boring and it is impossible to do anything else but A move with zealots because of the charge mechanic. I think that current game mode is fine and fun, who cares if you need to get T3 units if they make a good game. In my opinion, the way T1 Gateway units are balanced right now, they are best used as part of a death ball because they are so bad individually or in small groups.
I don't understand this argument, for starters basically no unit is good individually, a single thor gets magic boxed, a single marine does nothing, etc etc. Secondly, protoss units are plenty strong in small groups, have you ever even tried sending handfulls of chargelots to various expansions or in the main base of a zerg or terran? They tear shit up and can be a huge pain to deal with...so ya what exactly are you wanting?
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Everyone with the oppinion that gateway units are weak has absolutely no clue about the game. Gateway units are very strong, but they have to work together - they are synergetical units. While Zerg and Terran can mass certain units and be fine to a certain degree, for Protoss this doesn't work so well. (with the exception of blink stalkers in some situations).
Warpgate Allins like the 7-gate wouldn't be relevant in the metagame anymore if gateway units were weak!
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On October 14 2012 05:17 rembrant wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2012 05:02 SarcasmMonster wrote:On October 14 2012 04:43 moskonia wrote:
I really do not understand why people want to make gateway units stronger, gateway units are very boring and it is impossible to do anything else but A move with zealots because of the charge mechanic. I think that current game mode is fine and fun, who cares if you need to get T3 units if they make a good game. In my opinion, the way T1 Gateway units are balanced right now, they are best used as part of a death ball because they are so bad individually or in small groups. I don't understand this argument, for starters basically no unit is good individually, a single thor gets magic boxed, a single marine does nothing, etc etc. Secondly, protoss units are plenty strong in small groups, have you ever even tried sending handfulls of chargelots to various expansions or in the main base of a zerg or terran? They tear shit up and can be a huge pain to deal with...so ya what exactly are you wanting?
Terran units are amazing in small groups, especially the Marines. For example, 2 stimmed marines have more than 50% DPS than 1 zealot, plus range and speed makes them amazing at doing lots of economical damage in a short period of time before your opponent defense comes.
Marine drops are devastating because of their amazing DPS, whereas Zealot/Stalker drops are eh. Hellion drops vary greatly in effectiveness.
Protoss T1 gateway are better at meatshielding your deathball because of their high HP and low DPS.
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If the gateway units+ warpgate is too stong early and too weak late game, just give them better upgrades, either at Forge, or add additional upgrades at twilight council, similar to combat shield, blue flame, ex.
Warpgate is great, and should stay as is. When you get a hatchery and quin, or barraks with reactor, they are plain better than without quen or reactor. Isee no reason why warpgates should follow different logic.
As for late game, every race has an option to power beyond the max supply.
Terran can get more orbitals and sack SCVs, so their maxed army is the most supply-powerfull, if you invest resourses and get more production.
Zerg can have remax at the time of producing a single unit is you get enought hatcheries, and very easy tech switches.
Protoss can add up additional warpgates.
Apart from Terran T3 unist vulrnability to feedback, and BL-infestor-archonToilet finall of PvZ, lare game is perfectly fine.
On October 14 2012 05:26 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2012 05:17 rembrant wrote:On October 14 2012 05:02 SarcasmMonster wrote:On October 14 2012 04:43 moskonia wrote:
I really do not understand why people want to make gateway units stronger, gateway units are very boring and it is impossible to do anything else but A move with zealots because of the charge mechanic. I think that current game mode is fine and fun, who cares if you need to get T3 units if they make a good game. In my opinion, the way T1 Gateway units are balanced right now, they are best used as part of a death ball because they are so bad individually or in small groups. I don't understand this argument, for starters basically no unit is good individually, a single thor gets magic boxed, a single marine does nothing, etc etc. Secondly, protoss units are plenty strong in small groups, have you ever even tried sending handfulls of chargelots to various expansions or in the main base of a zerg or terran? They tear shit up and can be a huge pain to deal with...so ya what exactly are you wanting? Terran units are amazing in small groups, especially the Marines. For example, 2 stimmed marines have more than 50% DPS than 1 zealot, plus range and speed makes them amazing at doing lots of economical damage in a short period of time before your opponent defense comes.
2 stimmed marines versus a chargelot?
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On October 14 2012 05:36 naastyOne wrote:If the gateway units+ warpgate is too stong early and too weak late game, just give them better upgrades, either at Forge, or add additional upgrades at twilight council, similar to combat shield, blue flame, ex. Warpgate is great, and should stay as is. When you get a hatchery and quin, or barraks with reactor, they are plain better than without quen or reactor. Isee no reason why warpgates should follow different logic. As for late game, every race has an option to power beyond the max supply. Terran can get more orbitals and sack SCVs, so their maxed army is the most supply-powerfull, if you invest resourses and get more production. Zerg can have remax at the time of producing a single unit is you get enought hatcheries, and very easy tech switches. Protoss can add up additional warpgates. Apart from Terran T3 unist vulrnability to feedback, and BL-infestor-archonToilet finall of PvZ, lare game is perfectly fine. Show nested quote +On October 14 2012 05:26 SarcasmMonster wrote:On October 14 2012 05:17 rembrant wrote:On October 14 2012 05:02 SarcasmMonster wrote:On October 14 2012 04:43 moskonia wrote:
I really do not understand why people want to make gateway units stronger, gateway units are very boring and it is impossible to do anything else but A move with zealots because of the charge mechanic. I think that current game mode is fine and fun, who cares if you need to get T3 units if they make a good game. In my opinion, the way T1 Gateway units are balanced right now, they are best used as part of a death ball because they are so bad individually or in small groups. I don't understand this argument, for starters basically no unit is good individually, a single thor gets magic boxed, a single marine does nothing, etc etc. Secondly, protoss units are plenty strong in small groups, have you ever even tried sending handfulls of chargelots to various expansions or in the main base of a zerg or terran? They tear shit up and can be a huge pain to deal with...so ya what exactly are you wanting? Terran units are amazing in small groups, especially the Marines. For example, 2 stimmed marines have more than 50% DPS than 1 zealot, plus range and speed makes them amazing at doing lots of economical damage in a short period of time before your opponent defense comes. 2 stimmed marines versus a chargelot?
8 dropped stimmed marines are much scarier than 4 dropped Chargelots yes.
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SC2 Zealots and Stalkers are straight-up weaker than Brood War zealots and dragoons. In open terrain, they lose badly to equal cost Rine/Rauder or Roach/Ling. It's true that Sentries are an equalizer, because with good Forcefields a Protoss tier-1 army can beat an equal cost zerg/terran army quite handily. It's also true that the stats of Zealots and Stalkers are limited by the power of Warp Gates; in the current metagame any straight-up zealot/stalker buff would make Warp Gate all-ins way too strong.
With all that in mind, logically speaking there are two ways to buff Gateway units without completely destroying the metagame:
1) Buff zealots and stalkers, and nerf Warp Gates.
2) Buff sentries.
Although I personally agree that Warp Gates should be nerfed, it is also true that #2 is a "cleaner" game design choice than #1.
#1 would have multiple late-game repercussions. The colossus-based deathball would be stronger due to a better Zealot meatshield. Expansion defense against harassment would be more difficult due to a weaker Warp-In. If that led to a colossus nerf and photon cannon buff, I would applaud enthusiastically. However, it sounds like Blizzard doesn't want to rock the boat by rebalancing multiple Protoss units at once.
#2 improves the power of early-game Gateway compositions and actually helps with defender's advantage as Force Field is much stronger on defense than offense. However, it doesn't dramatically change the power of the lategame deathball (vikings, ghosts, broodlords, and ultras don't care about FF) and it doesn't change the usability of Warp-In for harassment defense.
So although I disagree with him I can see why David Kim wants #2.
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On October 14 2012 05:24 TeeTS wrote:
Everyone with the oppinion that gateway units are weak has absolutely no clue about the game. Gateway units are very strong, but they have to work together - they are synergetical units. While Zerg and Terran can mass certain units and be fine to a certain degree, for Protoss this doesn't work so well. (with the exception of blink stalkers in some situations).
Warpgate Allins like the 7-gate wouldn't be relevant in the metagame anymore if gateway units were weak!
Missing the point. Notice the differnce between warpgate and gateway plz.
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On October 14 2012 05:41 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2012 05:36 naastyOne wrote:If the gateway units+ warpgate is too stong early and too weak late game, just give them better upgrades, either at Forge, or add additional upgrades at twilight council, similar to combat shield, blue flame, ex. Warpgate is great, and should stay as is. When you get a hatchery and quin, or barraks with reactor, they are plain better than without quen or reactor. Isee no reason why warpgates should follow different logic. As for late game, every race has an option to power beyond the max supply. Terran can get more orbitals and sack SCVs, so their maxed army is the most supply-powerfull, if you invest resourses and get more production. Zerg can have remax at the time of producing a single unit is you get enought hatcheries, and very easy tech switches. Protoss can add up additional warpgates. Apart from Terran T3 unist vulrnability to feedback, and BL-infestor-archonToilet finall of PvZ, lare game is perfectly fine. On October 14 2012 05:26 SarcasmMonster wrote:On October 14 2012 05:17 rembrant wrote:On October 14 2012 05:02 SarcasmMonster wrote:On October 14 2012 04:43 moskonia wrote:
I really do not understand why people want to make gateway units stronger, gateway units are very boring and it is impossible to do anything else but A move with zealots because of the charge mechanic. I think that current game mode is fine and fun, who cares if you need to get T3 units if they make a good game. In my opinion, the way T1 Gateway units are balanced right now, they are best used as part of a death ball because they are so bad individually or in small groups. I don't understand this argument, for starters basically no unit is good individually, a single thor gets magic boxed, a single marine does nothing, etc etc. Secondly, protoss units are plenty strong in small groups, have you ever even tried sending handfulls of chargelots to various expansions or in the main base of a zerg or terran? They tear shit up and can be a huge pain to deal with...so ya what exactly are you wanting? Terran units are amazing in small groups, especially the Marines. For example, 2 stimmed marines have more than 50% DPS than 1 zealot, plus range and speed makes them amazing at doing lots of economical damage in a short period of time before your opponent defense comes. 2 stimmed marines versus a chargelot? 8 dropped stimmed marines are much scarier than 4 dropped Chargelots yes.
Don't give them the medivac and see what happens. Also what you forget is that Warp Prism can "drop" more units than it can carry by using Warp Gate mechanics. Those 4 Chargelots can be followed up immediately by X number of DTs.
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Balancing Protoss T1 may be quite difficult. They actually are quite effective vs Terran bio at any stage of the game, and I think in a very balanced manner. Even though they feel a bit weaker than MMM, the warp gate allows for instant reinforcements and allows Toss to overrun Terran after quite close battle (by close I mean all/most of the colossi/ghosts got killed).
On the other hand, they are extremely weak vs Z and P.
They get absolutely raped by colossi. This causes macro PvPs(luckily they seldom go past 2 bases) to be hellishly boring lazerwarz.
Vs Z, they are quite strong in 2 base all ins, but get more and more weaker up to trash tier units in the very late game. Zealots with upgrade advantage rend through any number of zerglings, but are getting obliterated by cracklings. Moreover, they are completely useless vs roaches. Blink stalkers are very effective vs roaches early on, but once Zerg catches up with upgrades or gets infestors, they become incredibly weak.
Even archons seem to weak. A well upgraded archon in bw could take on endless stream of lings. Now, cracklings are actually cost efficient vs archons(i think 12 are the number required to take down an archon, 250 mins vs 100 mins 300 gas). Again, just like zealots, they simply don't cut it vs roaches.
The solutions that come to my mind:
- make the zealot and the stalker a little bit bigger, so they don't melt to colossi and fungals so easily
- add a T3 upgrade for zealot (requires Templar Archives/Dark Shrine). This could be a further increase in movement speed, additional dmg or some original stuff, can't think of anything fun right now)
- change the way the damage vs armored of stalker scales - add +2 instead of +1 (vs others it stays the same)
- change the archon splash to cover a wider area, that should come with a range reduction though.
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EPT
