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Blizzard: Gateway/Warpgate only a lowlevel issue?

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 HotS
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SarcasmMonster
Profile Joined October 2011
3136 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-12 22:06:29
October 12 2012 22:04 GMT
#1
We’ve been getting a lot of feedback from lower-level Protoss players saying that gateway units are weak because Warp Gates are too good, Force Fields are too difficult to use, etc. We’ve also noticed that scouting in Heart of the Swarm is more important than ever due to new threats out there.

We’re comfortable with the current power level of gateway units and their fit in the Protoss arsenal. It’s not uncommon for mass Zealots or lots of Stalkers to do awesome things. Perhaps Sentries can be a bit difficult to utilize, but this is only because this unit revolves so much around good Force Field usage.


-David Kim

Here David Kim suggests lowlevel players are vocal about the Gateway/Warpgate dynamic but ultimately states that it is not really an issue.



Thanks for the post! There is a lot of good detailed feedback here. I don't agree with everything but it's a great discussion. For example I don't believe that "Gateway units are weak because of warp-in." I do agree that Sentry is core to Gateway and that Gateway units are balanced around the use of Sentry. What makes this worse is that Sentries are hard to use. Guardian Shield isn't too difficult to manage, but Force Fields can be very difficult to use correctly. We are talking about ways to make the Sentry easier to use so more Protoss players can get value out of him.


-Dustin Browder

Here Dustin Browder reconfirms Blizzard's stance that Warpgate's are not the reason Gatway units are weak.



To high-level players (presumably masters and above), is Blizzard right or wrong about Gateway/Warpgate?

1. Are Gateway units weak?
+ Show Spoiler +
Poll: Gateway units are...

Weak (148)
 
58%

Strong (59)
 
23%

Neither (48)
 
19%

255 total votes

Your vote: Gateway units are...

(Vote): Strong
(Vote): Weak
(Vote): Neither



2. If you think Gateway units are weak, is it because Warpgate is too strong OR too early in the tech tree OR too cheap (50 mins and 50 gas)? (N/A if you don't think Gateway units are weak)
+ Show Spoiler +
Poll: Gateway units are weak because CURRENT Warpgate is too good?

Agree (132)
 
71%

Disagree (53)
 
29%

185 total votes

Your vote: Gateway units are weak because CURRENT Warpgate is too good?

(Vote): Agree
(Vote): Disagree


MMA: The true King of Wings
Grendel
Profile Joined November 2010
Belgium126 Posts
October 12 2012 22:06 GMT
#2
Define 'Gateway units'. I mean, zealot and stalker are weakish. But when you add the sentry, also a gateway unit, they are pretty strong, and if you add High Templar, another gateway unit, they are very strong.
TheMooseHeed
Profile Joined July 2010
United Kingdom535 Posts
October 12 2012 22:07 GMT
#3
I think gateways weakness is more a combination of forcefield and warpgate than just warpgate.
''Swarm hosts are the worst thing in the world, I mean terrorism is pretty bad but swarmhosts are worse'' IdrA on ZvZ
SarcasmMonster
Profile Joined October 2011
3136 Posts
October 12 2012 22:08 GMT
#4
On October 13 2012 07:06 Grendel wrote:
Define 'Gateway units'. I mean, zealot and stalker are weakish. But when you add the sentry, also a gateway unit, they are pretty strong, and if you add High Templar, another gateway unit, they are very strong.


I do agree that Sentry is core to Gateway and that Gateway units are balanced around the use of Sentry.


Dustin counts Sentry as part of Gateway unit.
MMA: The true King of Wings
rpgalon
Profile Joined April 2011
Brazil1069 Posts
October 12 2012 22:09 GMT
#5
is the archon a gateway unit?
badog
piplup
Profile Joined April 2011
117 Posts
October 12 2012 22:14 GMT
#6
I think blizzard misinterpreted the issue... it's not a balance issue... it's a design issue. Warpgates forces gateway units to be weaker, which leads to a reliance on FF's and Colossi
SarcasmMonster
Profile Joined October 2011
3136 Posts
October 12 2012 22:21 GMT
#7
On October 13 2012 07:09 rpgalon wrote:
is the archon a gateway unit?


I guess. It benefits from Warp-ins so it's relevant.
MMA: The true King of Wings
AndAgain
Profile Joined November 2010
United States2621 Posts
October 12 2012 22:39 GMT
#8
Everybody knows that gateway units aren't cost efficient against bio and roach/ling. It's not just a low level issue.
All your teeth should fall out and hair should grow in their place!
Tankz123
Profile Joined December 2011
Denmark228 Posts
October 12 2012 22:50 GMT
#9
as a mech player, gateway units are damn strong.

as bio, the gateway units bar templar/archon are damn weak.
Antylamon
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1981 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-12 23:17:56
October 12 2012 23:16 GMT
#10
It used to be that Zeals were harder to deal with (TvP) at lower levels, ironically. When your micro is sub-par, you can't kite very well, even with concussive shells. With the inclusion of Battle Hellions, Zeals are much more easily dealt with. Thus, Gateway units as a whole seem weaker because Zeals are less effective against Bio.

Stalkers have always been crap against Marauders, so end of story there.

Sentries have no fighting capabilities whatsoever, but Blizz has a point here. Early game Toss is based around FF. If you can't use FF effectively, you die easily to early aggression.

As for PvZ, Gateway units have been weak ever since Stephano started using Roaches.
MasterCynical
Profile Joined September 2012
505 Posts
October 12 2012 23:29 GMT
#11
Forcefields aren't as difficult to use as Dustin Browder makes them out to be. The only difficult thing is probably watching your ramp or front door and forcefielding in time.

David Kim really needs to do some critical thinking about this issue... This is one of the first times that he sounds genuinely naive about a situation.
If warpgate was a lot weaker or even nonexistent, pretty much every warpgate timing wouldn't be viable anymore due to the long walking distances, cyber tech gateway units would officially be the weakest for timing attacks.
Balancing around Forcefield is also stupid. That's saying protoss cant even engage in a head on battle and has to engage only parts of their army, this is self evident proof that gateway units are weak, it makes gateway units too much of a glass cannon.
ledarsi
Profile Joined September 2010
United States475 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-12 23:40:45
October 12 2012 23:40 GMT
#12
Alright time for an essay.


Why Warp Gate breaks Protoss early game + Show Spoiler +


The Warp Gate is strictly dominant over the Gateway. It builds every unit more quickly, and allows them to be warped in anywhere, negating defender's advantage. Even if it did not allow the meat of the ability (the warp in anywhere) it would still be strictly dominant over the gateway simply because it reduces the build times of all gateway units by about 10 seconds.

This is the reason why the 4gate, and other "fast Warp Gate" issues have appeared. As soon as that research finishes, Protoss has a HUGE surge in power. Gateway production cycle finishes, transform to Warp Gate, instantly warp in more units. Obviously conducive to strong all-in at this timing.

Furthermore, the boost in production means that Protoss is also in an exceptionally good position to continue their all-in. The negation of defender's advantage regardless of the size of the map, and the ability to ignore ramps by warping in on the high ground together added up to an incredibly powerful early game that does directly result in the zealot and stalker being weaker than perhaps they should be.

In terms of raw numbers, gateway units are weaker than they were in Brood War. The zealot has less shield than in BW, and is a melee unit which has been indirectly nerfed by the engine. The stalker has less HP and considerably less damage than the dragoon, not to mention its lack of a range upgrade. True, it has a higher movement speed, but in terms of actual combat power, it is considerably weaker. Warp Gate is the cause. This even applies to templar tech. High Templar with warp in was such a problem that they removed the energy upgrade. DT warp in would be an issue if it weren't delayed by the most expensive and useless tech structure in the game, with a tremendous build time. Warp Gate broke the gateway units by buffing their logistics so much their actual power had to be reduced.

Protoss early game is thus weak. And they are dependent on Sentries, forcefield, and map design to stay alive.



Why Warp Gate breaks Protoss macro + Show Spoiler +


Alright now onto why the macro mechanic of warp-in is fundamentally flawed from an economic/industrial standpoint.

Plain and simple, Warp Gate causes your unit production to be front-loaded to paying for it. Rather than spend money, wait for unit to be produced, and then receive unit, the warp gate is effectively "producing" the unit for no cost while you wait for its cooldown. You are paying for the unit at the END of its production cycle, rather than the beginning. This is a huge change.

You only pay for the unit when you actually want or need it. If you are building constantly out of all your warp gates, this doesn't really matter that much. It certainly matters that warp gates build units considerably faster, meaning you need fewer warp gates than you would gateways. But if you always purchase when the cooldown is up, it does not really matter if the cost is at the beginning or the end. There is a small efficiency gain from getting to pay later, but it's not really a big deal. The big issue comes from warp gates with their cooldowns up, but which the player either cannot build from, or does not need to build from at that time. See the section on protoss endgame.



Why Warp Gate breaks Protoss endgame + Show Spoiler +


In the extreme late game, protoss has the option of building more warp gates. This is HUGE. With a large bank and 50 warp gates on standby, the Protoss now has 100 more supply available than they actually have in play. After, or even during a battle, the Protoss can immediately warp in more units.

Every warp gate effectively builds a unit, and then keeps it in reserve. These units in the warpgates do not cost supply to maintain, and they don't even cost resources until you actually want to put the unit on the board. Which you can do in any location you please, including directly into the battlefield to reinforce your army.

The effect of gateway units being "stored" in warpgates on top of your maxed army should not be underestimated. It gives protoss armies incredible momentum in maxed army confrontations. Even if Protoss and their opponent are both largely destroyed in the confrontation, the warped-in reinforcements hit immediately.

For Terran and Zerg, you pay for your units and then wait for them to build. Zerg can massively parallelize their production across larvae and hatcheries, so this cost is not as great. But for Terran, production facilities simply cannot compete with warp gates. Both sides are maxed, armies clash, both sides suffer casualties. Terran BEGINS production of their new units, while Protoss warps new ones in immediately. This difference in production is the NUMBER ONE REASON why mech does not work against protoss- because losing units against a protoss is an immediate loss due to inability to replace those units fast enough, even if you have the bank and production facilities to do so. You simply cannot wait one or two tank or thor build times without losing the game.



Essentially I am saying three things. Firstly, that the potential to abuse warpgates early game (warp into base, timing when warp gate research finishes, extra production after research finished) weakens gateway units. Secondly, Warp Gate production is front-loaded to actually paying for the unit. And thirdly, when Protoss is maxed, every Warp Gate they possess is effectively an extra unit that they haven't paid for yet, which can be actualized on the field anywhere, immediately.
"First decide who you would be, then do what you must do."
Cabinet Sanchez
Profile Joined February 2011
Australia1097 Posts
October 12 2012 23:49 GMT
#13
Holy fucking shit how insulting.

I am a VERY low level player but a very very large consumer of pro games, I watch hours and hours and hours of matches. I don't want warpgate changed for me, I couldn't care less for me. I want warpgate and gateway changed because it is illogical.
Why should the more convienient option (warpgate) have a better cooldown than the gateway?
Why not just make them fucking warpgates to begin with?

No, I want them flipped so that there's a tradeoff, a risk / reward. I want more exciting games to watch. I want to see players have to balance between gateways and warpgates and make a tactical decision if they have all gates, all warps or a mix of both. It could make for more exciting battles.

They just don't get it, just fucking remove the gateway and be done with it.
Mistakes
Profile Joined February 2011
United States1102 Posts
October 12 2012 23:53 GMT
#14
As a Master+ Zerg and low Master Terran I feel that gateway units are too strong (coupled with sentries) when used properly against Z. However when I play Terran I laugh at gateway units. Blink all you want, it won't do anything! Lol.
StarCraft | www.psistorm.com | www.twitter.com/MistakesSC | www.twitch.tv/MistakesSC | Seattle
Millet
Profile Joined April 2012
Sweden143 Posts
October 13 2012 00:37 GMT
#15
On October 13 2012 08:53 Mistakes wrote:
As a Master+ Zerg and low Master Terran I feel that gateway units are too strong (coupled with sentries) when used properly against Z. However when I play Terran I laugh at gateway units. Blink all you want, it won't do anything! Lol.

This is completely accurate from my experience. This is why a large portion of protoss players do 2 base all ins against zerg. I suggest making gateway units produce faster from gateways (defenders advantage), but produce slower at a range (warpgate). Currently there is no single reason what so ever to turn your warpgates into gateways. This would also delay aggression, which would make all ins against zerg worse. And if you want to warp in, youll have to wait longer for a warp in -> makes it easier for zerg to deal with.
robopork
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States511 Posts
October 13 2012 00:40 GMT
#16
They're comfortable with how they fit in the protoss arsenal? The most expensive early game units are meat shields after 10 minutes.

I lol'd.
“This left me alone to solve the coffee problem - a sort of catch-22, as in order to think straight I need caffeine, and in order to make that happen I need to think straight.”
MateShade
Profile Joined July 2011
Australia736 Posts
October 13 2012 00:57 GMT
#17
On October 13 2012 07:39 AndAgain wrote:
Everybody knows that gateway units aren't cost efficient against bio and roach/ling. It's not just a low level issue.

Yes everybody knows that, but it not an 'issue'. Gateways units are fine balance wise as they are.
It's a design concept as someone else has said. Personally I don't mind warp gate how it is but would be open to changes also.
rembrant
Profile Joined July 2012
62 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-13 01:21:15
October 13 2012 01:08 GMT
#18
Masters player here, when ppl say gateway units are weak I just cring and assume its a low league toss player expressing his sense of entitlement. Every single gateway unit is quite fine, not a weak one among them. I play all races btw.
I mean, I can beat masters toss and terran players with never making a single stargate unit or a single colossus in macro games no less...so ya, I'm thinking gate units are fine.
ledarsi
Profile Joined September 2010
United States475 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-13 01:22:18
October 13 2012 01:19 GMT
#19
Three stalkers and a zealot costs 475 minerals and 150 gas. You would be hard pressed to find a composition of terran or zerg units of the same cost which is actually beaten by this protoss force. A terran can get 5-ish marauders for that, depending on how you want to equate the value of minerals to gas. And a zerg can get 6-7ish roaches.

I myself am a masters terran. I think gateway units should be more effective against bio, and mech should be more effective against gateway units. Higher cost per supply should be stronger than lower cost per supply, and gateway costs more than bio, and mech costs more than gateway units.
"First decide who you would be, then do what you must do."
Zergrusher
Profile Joined November 2011
United States562 Posts
October 13 2012 01:20 GMT
#20
Fixing warp gate is so Easy


Make each type of gate way unit have a seperate warp in time.

instead of all gateway units currently having 5 seconds.


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