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On October 08 2012 02:52 Markwerf wrote:
The unit just needs some sort of use in combat. Pure harass units don't work as they are just too one dimensional. The oracle just feels too much as a unit you make 1 or 2 of, harass a little bit and don;t interact much with other stuff. Like a sidegame you do to gain some advantage but doesn;t matter that much.
Indeed, I like the idea of it becoming some sort of "dispeller" since it wouldnt sum up with the Protoss firepower directly but will be able to bring valuable support. A small AoE that removes harmful status (like the phase shield was intended to do) could work for this porpuses: Dispelling concussive shells would allow a small Protoss force a better chance to retreat from a bad engagement against early bio. Removing the Thor's Cannon stun to save a key unit. Removing Infestors FG, maybe damaging summons like Loctus, ITs and Hallucination?, Dispelling FFs?, I dont know.
Something between those lines would be really interesting with the proper Energy Requisite to avoid it becoming a cheap way to nullify every mistake. With a high Energy cost it would need good management and one will think twice before wasting a shot of it.
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@Osko An altered phase shield is definitely something to consider, as it would definitely lead to some awesome techniques (such as keeping warp prisms unfungaled) However, like the old phase shield, you would have to deal with the problem of its synergy with the death ball.
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On October 08 2012 02:52 Markwerf wrote:
The unit just needs some sort of use in combat. Pure harass units don't work as they are just too one dimensional. The oracle just feels too much as a unit you make 1 or 2 of, harass a little bit and don;t interact much with other stuff. Like a sidegame you do to gain some advantage but doesn;t matter that much.
That's part of the problem I'm trying to solve with these suggestions. A spell like disrupt will have a ton of utility for both harassing the enemy economy, harassing their army and delaying their pushes. On the other hand, phase field will likely be much more threatening then siphon or entomb, giving the opponent much more reason to send attacking units to dispel the oracle rather then "just go and kill you" which seems to be the problem with the oracle now.
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I thought of one potential issue with phase field if it affected all building types, the ability to shut down a planetary fortress. It still might be easy enough to ward of the oracle with a few AA units, but just in case, it would probably be wise to have this ability not shut down CC's, nexi, or hatcheries, which seems a simply enough fix.
I'm not in the beta, so if anyone really likes either of these spells, it would be awesome if you could post it over at the HOTS forums on battle net. I'd also love to hear some feedback from zerg and terran players, and whether or not these spells would be fun to micro against.
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I actually like the idea of phase field a lot. I will post my thoughts and what I think should be expanded on in a new thread.
(EDIT: Just registered, so I will just post my idea here and see what you guys think and will create a thread later.)
Re-tweaked Void Siphon: Chrono Rift
I like the overall idea of the Void Siphon in its current form, but I do not think it adds enough depth to the Oracle. Gaining 3 minerals/sec is a low reward for a high risk. This reworked idea is a mix of ideas from Contaminate, a "reverse" Chronoboost and the current Void Siphon which I think will expand the Oracle's harass options and expands the level of risk/reward based how players interact with each other.
New Spell: Chrono Rift
-Channeled spell on a target building. Short ranged (ex: 3-5). Costs 50 energy and 5 additional energy per sec. Moving the Oracle cancels the spell.
-Halt production time of a unit/upgrade being made on a building. Drain 1 energy from building per second. Also drain 1 second of production time per second. If production time reaches 0, cancel the production of that unit/upgrade. Opponent gets his resources refunded and you also gain those resources as your own.
Example) Opponent has a Robo building a Colossus at 10/75. Oracle has 100 energy and is left uninterrupted to use Chrono Rift for 10 seconds. The building time is halted and eventually decreased to 0/75. The Colossus is cancelled and the opponent is refunded 300/200 and you gain 300/200 resources as well. (Note: In PvP this also introduces a dynamic where Chronoboost can partially counteract Chrono Rift.)
For Zerg, the Oracle can also target individual larva and morphing units. Targeting a Hatchery only affects building queens and upgrades. For Terran, tech labs can also be targeted and reactored buildings affect both units in production.
(Note: The numbers and restrictions can be adjusted for balance. The overall idea and design is more important.)
Why I think this works:
Similar to the current Void Syphon, this spell promotes the Oracle to target more than just the mineral line. Instead of minerals/sec , there are multiple levels of rewards based on the success of the harass. In addition, the idea of stealing time as harass, which is already show with entomb, is expanded on with heavier consequences for opponents who do not position units properly to respond to harass with the risk of exposing your Oracle in the open.
Depending on what building you target, the reward of gaining resources VS delaying production time VS delayed energy gain changes as well. The longer Oracle is left unattended in the opponent's base on vulnerable buildings the more options the Oracle gains and the higher the reward. Example) Targeting Pathogen Glands from an Infestation Pit to delay the time it takes for infestors to spawn with a ready to use fungal VS a Colossus from a Robo to harvest resources VS an Orbital Command to prevent a possible scan for a DT harass.
Players who have strong knowledge of an opponent's exact build order timings (ex: pros players) can also get more mileage from Chrono Rift by gaining a higher chance of harvesting resources by targeting a unit/upgrade just as it starts. All of this would be in-game dependent which only makes the Oracle a more dynamic unit over the course of the whole match.
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What reasoning (if any) did blizzard give for dropping that spell that makes units immune to offensive spells (i forgot the name)? I felt like that had excellent high level potential.
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All though i think that these ideas are great, i cant imagine blizzard implementing the irridate spell. They seem to be designing the oracle around a harass unit that doesn't actually kill any workers, they seem to want to keep that idea.
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I posted about the Oracle in another thread. I'll repost it here:
The main issue with the Oracle is that it is a dedicated "harass" unit. It would be better if it were an effective unit that could harass well, and do other stuff (either direct combat or support). Worse, it's primary function is just utterly boring. Entomb does nothing in terms of spectator excitement; and players, understandably, dislike using such a dull ability (and unit). As I've said before, it is also very un-Protoss. I'd rather see the smouldering remains of scvs or watch drones burn. Entomb is not a cool idea. It is an insipid ability. The Oracle had its knees chopped from the get go.
Secondarily, it was meant to encourage SG play. The main issue with SG play is that all SG tech is, by and large, ineffective. If Blizzard really wanted to see more SG play, then buff the Phoenix, VR and Carrier. So, even if the Oracle did turn out to be this awesome unit, which it has not, I don't think we would see a resuscitation of Protoss air play. They can work and re-work the Oracle but Protoss players will still generally go Robo/Twilight because you get good units out of those tech paths.
I don't have any suggestions. Tbh, I'd rather they scrap the whole silly idea of a dedicated harass unit out of SG. Instead, for example, lower Graviton beam on the Phoenix to 25, give VR range and speed buffs at FB tech, implement Nony's Carrier suggestions and lower the build-time. I don't like the horrible Tempest either, but I'm willing to wait and see with that unit.
tldr: scrap the Oracle, buff SG tech.
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On October 09 2012 05:26 HighTempura wrote:
I actually like the idea of phase field a lot. I will post my thoughts and what I think should be expanded on in a new thread.
(EDIT: Just registered, so I will just post my idea here and see what you guys think and will create a thread later.)
Re-tweaked Void Siphon: Chrono Rift
I like the overall idea of the Void Siphon in its current form, but I do not think it adds enough depth to the Oracle. Gaining 3 minerals/sec is a low reward for a high risk. This reworked idea is a mix of ideas from Contaminate, a "reverse" Chronoboost and the current Void Siphon which I think will expand the Oracle's harass options and expands the level of risk/reward based how players interact with each other.
New Spell: Chrono Rift
-Channeled spell on a target building. Short ranged (ex: 3-5). Costs 50 energy and 5 additional energy per sec. Moving the Oracle cancels the spell.
-Halt production time of a unit/upgrade being made on a building. Drain 1 energy from building per second. Also drain 1 second of production time per second. If production time reaches 0, cancel the production of that unit/upgrade. Opponent gets his resources refunded and you also gain those resources as your own.
Example) Opponent has a Robo building a Colossus at 10/75. Oracle has 100 energy and is left uninterrupted to use Chrono Rift for 10 seconds. The building time is halted and eventually decreased to 0/75. The Colossus is cancelled and the opponent is refunded 300/200 and you gain 300/200 resources as well. (Note: In PvP this also introduces a dynamic where Chronoboost can partially counteract Chrono Rift.)
For Zerg, the Oracle can also target individual larva and morphing units. Targeting a Hatchery only affects building queens and upgrades. For Terran, tech labs can also be targeted and reactored buildings affect both units in production.
(Note: The numbers and restrictions can be adjusted for balance. The overall idea and design is more important.)
Why I think this works:
Similar to the current Void Syphon, this spell promotes the Oracle to target more than just the mineral line. Instead of minerals/sec , there are multiple levels of rewards based on the success of the harass. In addition, the idea of stealing time as harass, which is already show with entomb, is expanded on with heavier consequences for opponents who do not position units properly to respond to harass with the risk of exposing your Oracle in the open.
Depending on what building you target, the reward of gaining resources VS delaying production time VS delayed energy gain changes as well. The longer Oracle is left unattended in the opponent's base on vulnerable buildings the more options the Oracle gains and the higher the reward. Example) Targeting Pathogen Glands from an Infestation Pit to delay the time it takes for infestors to spawn with a ready to use fungal VS a Colossus from a Robo to harvest resources VS an Orbital Command to prevent a possible scan for a DT harass.
Players who have strong knowledge of an opponent's exact build order timings (ex: pros players) can also get more mileage from Chrono Rift by gaining a higher chance of harvesting resources by targeting a unit/upgrade just as it starts. All of this would be in-game dependent which only makes the Oracle a more dynamic unit over the course of the whole match.
I've seen a few similar ideas like this floating around, although this one is unique in that you get the money if you cancel whats building, which would give the player a much more significant reward for succeeding. (although im not sure how it would work lore wise  ) I assume the opponent would be unable to cancel while the spell is channeling.
While it is creative, I would still have concerns about its utility in keeping the protoss player alive if the opponent decided to attack . Also, it doesn't seem like it would be a micro inducing or exciting spell, although I could be wrong.
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On October 09 2012 05:57 ThirdDegree wrote:
What reasoning (if any) did blizzard give for dropping that spell that makes units immune to offensive spells (i forgot the name)? I felt like that had excellent high level potential.
The spell was phase shield, which did have a lot of interesting potential. However, it had too much natural synergy with the death ball, something blizzard was explicitly trying to avoid, although it could possibly be tweaked to avoid this.
On October 09 2012 06:04 TuckFexas wrote:
All though i think that these ideas are great, i cant imagine blizzard implementing the irridate spell. They seem to be designing the oracle around a harass unit that doesn't actually kill any workers, they seem to want to keep that idea.
I'm hoping this version or the spell can still satisfy their requirements, since this Psi Disrupt does not guarantee damage unlike Irradiate.
On October 09 2012 06:40 aZealot wrote:
I posted about the Oracle in another thread. I'll repost it here:
The main issue with the Oracle is that it is a dedicated "harass" unit. It would be better if it were an effective unit that could harass well, and do other stuff (either direct combat or support). Worse, it's primary function is just utterly boring. Entomb does nothing in terms of spectator excitement; and players, understandably, dislike using such a dull ability (and unit). As I've said before, it is also very un-Protoss. I'd rather see the smouldering remains of scvs or watch drones burn. Entomb is not a cool idea. It is an insipid ability. The Oracle had its knees chopped from the get go.
Secondarily, it was meant to encourage SG play. The main issue with SG play is that all SG tech is, by and large, ineffective. If Blizzard really wanted to see more SG play, then buff the Phoenix, VR and Carrier. So, even if the Oracle did turn out to be this awesome unit, which it has not, I don't think we would see a resuscitation of Protoss air play. They can work and re-work the Oracle but Protoss players will still generally go Robo/Twilight because you get good units out of those tech paths.
I don't have any suggestions. Tbh, I'd rather they scrap the whole silly idea of a dedicated harass unit out of SG. Instead, for example, lower Graviton beam on the Phoenix to 25, give VR range and speed buffs at FB tech, implement Nony's Carrier suggestions and lower the build-time. I don't like the horrible Tempest either, but I'm willing to wait and see with that unit.
tldr: scrap the Oracle, buff SG tech.
I agree on many points, but what do you think of my suggestions? I think they can bring a lot of utility to the unit, and blizzard probably won't be cutting the oracle anytime soon.
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These suggestions are as good as any. They must do something to make stargate more viable. If stargate becomes as viable as robo, all P matchups will be more fun to watch. Add offensive capabilities to the oracle or scrap it completely; change the tempest and carrier; and make observers able to be produced from the nexus after a tier 2 structure is built.
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On October 08 2012 02:52 Markwerf wrote:
The unit just needs some sort of use in combat. Pure harass units don't work as they are just too one dimensional. The oracle just feels too much as a unit you make 1 or 2 of, harass a little bit and don;t interact much with other stuff. Like a sidegame you do to gain some advantage but doesn;t matter that much.
Its sad that the reaper has better combat potential
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I feel like they could directly borrow the "chromo rift device" concept from the single player "Piercing the Shroud" mission for the oracle.
Chrono Rift Device
Prototype device that alters time. Anything trapped inside of the area will suffer penalties to its movement speed and attack speed.
Maybe tweak it so it's just attack speed, just movement speed, or some sort of compounding effect that becomes more detrimental the longer a unit stays in the area of effect.
They probably don't want to borrow concepts from the single player, but it might be an interesting effect, and possibly a viable worker line harass too.
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On October 09 2012 12:08 rhcp123 wrote:I've seen a few similar ideas like this floating around, although this one is unique in that you get the money if you cancel whats building, which would give the player a much more significant reward for succeeding. (although im not sure how it would work lore wise ) I assume the opponent would be unable to cancel while the spell is channeling. While it is creative, I would still have concerns about its utility in keeping the protoss player alive if the opponent decided to attack . Also, it doesn't seem like it would be a micro inducing or exciting spell, although I could be wrong.
Think of it as time travel. You are phasing the unit out of existence before it was created
Removing the option to cancel would make the spell stronger and make more sense, but taking away your opponent's options like that makes them feel kind of helpless like forcefield and fungal. Letting the opponent have the option to cancel could open up more back and forth interactions though.
Let's say they cancel. As long as the oracle is nearby they can't start producing again for fear that if you use the spell exactly as they start building they can't react in time to cancel. Even if they can react, constantly cancelling production becomes apm consuming and wastes time on something that could have been produced long ago. It also could also just be a waste of energy since at worst it's a weaker contaminate. All depends on tweaking the numbers.
I don't think the oracle can provoke base races if that's what you mean as it still lacks any offensive utility (imo shouldn't seeing blizzard wants to innovate new types of harass). I'd say the mothership core would be more suited for defense. What the oracle can do is give time and resources to prepare for that attack. As for the micro/exciting factor, I'd say that it creates the same suspense as when a medivac drop snipes a forge with upgrade is about to finish. Becomes a question of are you willing to risk possibly losing your oracle for that reward.
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I haven't read most of the posts in this thread so I'm going to assume that what I am going to post is original.
Please read my comment and respond!
Considering the fact that the Oracle is currently made into a pure harass unit due to its abilities:
-Revelation: Reveal units within target area
-Void Siphon:channels a beam at an enemy structure that deals 3 damage and harvests 3 minerals every second until canceled
-Entomb: Create mineral shields over patches within target area. Duration of shields without being destroyed 45 seconds.
I want to direct the attention to Entomb, since I believe that the ability could be tweaked to be able to be used during army battles. I want you to understand where my idea will be coming from since my idea comes from the Dark Archon's ability "Maelstrom", which ability is to freeze all organic units in a small radius of the target location for a short duration(about 7 seconds).
Now, if Entomb could be tweaked to redirect the ability to affect a certain type of units, it could immobilize workers and army too. The time duration would have to be reasonable so it could work as a harass against workers and short enough not to determine completely army engagements. Also I think it would be reasonable to have the units affected by the spell invunerable to damage until time duration like the Arbiter's Stasis Field.
My only worry would be that Blizzard would consider my idea too BroodWar like.
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On October 09 2012 12:49 TheLunatic wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2012 02:52 Markwerf wrote:
The unit just needs some sort of use in combat. Pure harass units don't work as they are just too one dimensional. The oracle just feels too much as a unit you make 1 or 2 of, harass a little bit and don;t interact much with other stuff. Like a sidegame you do to gain some advantage but doesn;t matter that much. Its sad that the reaper has better combat potential
Sidegames you do to gain an advantage = the midgame small battles blizzard is trying to force.
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I do like the "Chrono-Rift" idea. While they probably could fix "Void Siphon" by tweaking the numbers, it would be pretty cool, if a little bit of "Phase Shift" would be added. Draining energy seems like an unncessary bonus though. There are not that many buildings where it would be useful and additional energy can always be given by the MsC more effectively. Also, the more complicated a spell gets, the harder it will become to balance and the weaker its different aspects would become.
Making single Entomb-nodes castable one at a time might be one possibility to give the spell more flexiblility. One problem with the idea is, that the nodes would probably have to be quite fragile, since they would then basically be 25 energy-force fields. Which would make them less effective against worker lines. On the other hand, you would be able to mess up gas-mining with just one or two nodes.
As far as not dying is concerned a positional hp-/energy-aoe-drain could be used to delay attacks. The numbers I imagine would be like 3 hp/energy per second, but the aoe and duration would both be bigger than is the case for spells currently in the game. Cost would be 75-100 energy.
Edit: I just had an idea, that would make the latter spell a lot more interesting. Let's say, that it would damage both friendly and hostile units and structures in the area, but would also act as an energy field, till it collapses 5-10 seconds later. This, let's say "Unstable Energy Field", could then also be used in emergencies.
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Am i the only one, who does not like Revelation?
When you go Stargate you have fine harassment, untill too many Spores/Queens/Missile Turrets are up.
You also have good scouting. What really lack is your army composition.
Being able to detect is good, but i'd rather give detection to the Sentry, when it uses Guardian Shield or something, it is called a "Sentry."
So the Oracle should give, continual harassment and needed assistance in the army.
My suggestion would be, to have Entomb, along with the Stasis(anti-building,) this allows continual harass possibility, with either Phoenix/Voids or even DT's, this could also be a spell that the Phoenix could possibly have, being a energy unit.
And then the Oracle should also have the Cloaking Field, it would just be a great addition. I feel like the Mothership will be scrapped, as it stands now.
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EDIT: I feel like the suggestion I made is too akin to Brood War (which was to turn Oracle into a Mobile "Shield Battery") and so are some other suggestions taking from BW. Personally I love the Chrono-harass ideas, similar to Corruption, as I feel like Blizzard isn't trying to make the Oracle a damaging unit.
Oracle is in a tough spot, how do you help StarGate units. Tempest, Carrier and Pheonix all have really different targeting systems, speeds the list goes on...Tempest Range can be 15 (22 upgraded). Carrier Range is 8 (12 when on a lease range). Pheonix Range is 4 (6 upgraded). This idea is going to seem really strange but I feel like it would help with Air synergy and tactics, giving Protoss both a versatile offensive idea as well as a "professional level" defensive/micro tactic in the Air without Buffing or Healing for a "Death Ball" scenario.
Tempest/Carrier and Pheonix recieve a "Blink to Oracle Spell" which could debate the Cooldown/Range. Now 8 (Like Stalker) would be overkill allowing Tempest and Pheonix to blink together if the Oracle is placed "perfectly" inbetween (when both are upgraded ) but I feel like 4-5 could likely be more balanced. Giving a Micro tactic for Shield play as well as a nifty "unit range modifier" that has both offensive and defensive capabilities.
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The "Psionic Disruption" (Irradiate) ability is a nice idea. If we can't get the cloaking field back, then I'd say irradiate is the next best choice.
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EPT
