EPTShould Colossus no longer count as an "air unit"? - Page 3
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AndreiDaGiant
United States394 Posts
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Masada714
United States89 Posts
On October 06 2012 05:59 Berailfor wrote: First off I'm a toss, so using an argument suggesting I think it's a great mechanic because I can own them with Vikings is false. I already explained my reasoning, don't try to put words in my mouth, I said it makes for a positional game in which units are dancing around eachother constantly trying to pick at vulnerable spots in the others army. In small engagements with reduced range, the range would either still be long enough that Vikings are a necessity. Or it'd be not long enough that they just die to bio focusing. In large engagements, nothing Terran has as a ground unit can stand up to high colossi numbers, so you'd just lose. Seriously PvT and PvZ would be completely broken without this mechanic and would need a complete rework. I don't know how you can't see that. And yes dare you say get BC's or banshees. You'd just lose. that money not going to Vikings should be spent on more MM and ghosts. So sure, maybe because colossi would be completely broken you'd be force to make something colossi can't hit. But then you'd just die to high Templar and stalkers overwhelming you the second it was scouted. And then once again, the exact thing your trying to prevent happens, building an air unit to deal with colossi. Am I wrong? I do apologize for assuming you were T, that is a mistake. However, I'm not convinced that removing the AtA attack against it would break PvZ and PvT. What I said was just merely a suggestion in regards to the OP topic and maybe it is not viable but since we are in Beta for HotS and when they start looking at WoL units, hey why not? The main difference for the BC/Banshee thing is that they specifically are able to hit ground, so yes you would run into the same problem with the Viking in not being able to shoot it, but that should be acceptable since that is what BC/Banshee should be able to hit. | ||
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urbaNo
United States47 Posts
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MateShade
Australia736 Posts
On October 06 2012 02:03 Qikz wrote: Actually not entirely true. If collosus don't get hit by air, sky toss transitions are moe likely meaning that AtA will be needed later game. This could be a good idea, but only if they remove collosus standing over the top of armies. Why would air transitions be more likely if the colossus was stronger? | ||
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naastyOne
491 Posts
On October 06 2012 06:39 MateShade wrote: Why would air transitions be more likely if the colossus was stronger? Theoretically, because with colosus like it is, your enemy mases anti-air units(vikings and corruptors) to deal with them, so if you transition into air, you`ll get owned even more, since not only the colosus but your entire(air) army will become more vulrnable to superior air units of enemy. This is kind of true, in that Protoss doesn`t quite have good air unit to controll air, compared to Vikings or corrupters. maybe carrier, but you can not produce those fast. Although, Tempest with anti-air splash would fix that handilly. Although, I would say that there is a problem of other races rely on air superiority way too much, to deal with colosus than they should, and if they can not win air superiority, they can have almost nothing to counter colosus, And if they have to be capable of wining air superiority, that means, they have to be capable of dealing tith toss air units in the first place. | ||
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happyness
United States2400 Posts
Personally I think they should give the colossus a nerf of some sort and make up for it by giving a buff to the carrier or something. | ||
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naastyOne
491 Posts
On October 06 2012 07:46 happyness wrote: Colossus has new vulnerabilities in HotS and that is a good thing. When it comes to the widow mine I'm not sure it would necessarily be effective like you say anyway. Personally I think they should give the colossus a nerf of some sort and make up for it by giving a buff to the carrier or something. Carrier is already super good if you manage to mass it. The problem is in not dying between starting and getting a mass of carriers. buffing a carrier will make it OP in big numbers. Nerfing the colosus is stupid. why should the robo end-game be weak compared to stargate endgame? stargate needs better mid game, not late game. | ||
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RoboBob
United States798 Posts
On October 06 2012 01:22 JackReacher wrote: Reading the thread regarding Widow Mines not being suicide units now, I got to thinking about a change to an old Wing of Liberty standby; the Colossus. This might sound reasonable to you and it might not, but hear me out, because I thought a lot about it, and it seems like a completely fair (if not necessary) change in light of the new units in HoTS. My logic is that between Terran's (newly changed) Widow Mines and their Battle Hellions, Zerg having the Viper and the Swarm Host, and Protoss having the Tempest . . . it's fair to make the Colossus not be vulnerable to anti-air only attacks anymore. All races will have legitimate ways of dealing with the Colossus and its range. I'll explain my thoughts by match-up. In TvP, with Terran Widow Mines no longer suicide units, they can be a very effective way to take out Colossi, given that Terran positions everything in a smart way and gets good scans off to deny Observers. Moreover, with Battle Hellions being introduced, they will be an alternative to stimmed Marines at taking out Chargelots; one that doesn't get hard-countered by the Colossus in the way that stimmed bio does. Okay. So assuming a 9 range Colossus blunders into a 5 range Widow Mine deathfield, here is the toll: Protoss: 1 Colossi, 300/200/6 Terran: 1 Scan, 270 minerals 4 Widow Mines 300/100/6 (1 to kill obs, 3 to kill the Colossi). The Widow Mines stay alive but are sitting ducks for the next 40 seconds. Doing 160 damage over 40 sec is 4 dps. A single Zergling or Marine does about 7 dps without upgrades. So it does about half the dps of an not stimmed Marine. Yeah I don't see it happening. The Colossi is probably the last Protoss unit in the game that needs a buff. | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
As a zerg swarmhosts alone do not counter colossi at all and vipers are hive tech. If colossi can't be hit by corruptors anymore I can already see a 4 colossi timing that hits just as soon as hive finishes and would kill the zerg like 100% of the time unless the protoss really really messed up. FF+4 colossi + ground army support would just crush any zerg ground army and then making the colossi's only counter the viper would be a joke as well. In short terrible idea. | ||
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jmbthirteen
United States10734 Posts
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czylu
477 Posts
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Aveng3r
United States2411 Posts
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RimJaynor
Canada145 Posts
On October 06 2012 01:22 JackReacher wrote: In ZvP, with Swarm Hosts and Vipers, Zerg now has adequate Seige AND anti-seige tools at appropriate tech levels. The Swarm Host itself acts as a cost-effective seige unit at Infestation Pit tech and can burrow by default. It spawns free units that damage ground and air alike, and can stay back with an Overseer to spot Observers. It may not counter the Colossus, but it comes at a comparable tech level and serves a similar function. At the very least, they negate one another. The Viper, with its abduct ability, come EARLY Hive tech. With this, Zerg doesn't need Corruptors to focus down Colossi anymore, as they can just yank them to their army and focus them down 1 by 1 with Roaches, Locusts, whatever Lair tech units they are fielding that hit ground. Also, unlike the Corruptor in ZvP, it's not simply a "designated anti-Colossus unit with no other role except eating supply until it turns into a Broodlord". Zerg players can invest in a useful caster unit that deals with Colossi more effectively than Corruptors, and has other roles. Also, maybe with good use of Blinding Cloud, the Viper could also help in negative the extreme range of Colossi while fast lings/roaches close the distance; Once in the face of Colossi, lings and Roaches CAN kill them, it's the run-up that ends up being suicide. I know the radius is small, but it has potential for helping minimize a LOT of damage during very large engagements, given enough Vipers to cover a good bit of ground with the spell. lol this is a post of a lazy toss player who A moves a death ball. In all honesty i don't know why im arguing it. but regardless A. Just because colossi can be hit by curruptors/vikings doesn't mean they will actually kill them. Vikings and curruptors aren't cheap either. It requires some micro, and hey there is even a cast called "hallucination" have you heard of it, where i'm here killing fake colos. B. Hive tech requires 3 base to not be an all in, meaning truthfully you won't see vipers on the field till after the 12-13 min mark...which by then you could have a 1-3 colo push. C. Have you heard of feedback...that works against casters like vipers right? D. IT WOULD BE IMPOSSIBLE TO KILL ARMIES OF 5+ Colossi | ||
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RyF
Austria508 Posts
i am not a fan of limiting options. | ||
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Decendos
Germany1338 Posts
On October 06 2012 10:05 blade55555 wrote: Nope would make the colossi way way way to strong. As a zerg swarmhosts alone do not counter colossi at all and vipers are hive tech. If colossi can't be hit by corruptors anymore I can already see a 4 colossi timing that hits just as soon as hive finishes and would kill the zerg like 100% of the time unless the protoss really really messed up. FF+4 colossi + ground army support would just crush any zerg ground army and then making the colossi's only counter the viper would be a joke as well. In short terrible idea. basically this. you cant make colossi not be hit by air while keeping FF so there is no way colossi can be attacked. if you would make colossi not be hit by air (which isnt a bad idea since it would make stargate play more viable and you could make corruptor a more interesting unit/replace it with other unit) but you would have to fix the FF issue with it. i really hope they adress FF at least in LOTV and replace it with a non-micro preventing spell like another shield that increases dmg/hp etc. or sth. like shield battery. that way you could micro and kill the colossi and make colossi a non "air" unit. as is: no way colossi becomes a non "air" unit. | ||
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XenoX101
Australia729 Posts
This is coming from a high dia/low masters P player. Colossus are already the most versatile unit in the entire game, if they can completely ignore anti-air attacks then they will become hilariously overpowered. No amount of widow mines or swarm hosts will stop Colossi since you can easily micro it back to avoid that damage, and vipers cost 100/200 and die to feedbacks + blink stalkers, plus their Abduct range is not that great against P players with quick reactions. Not even mentioning that HOTS would return to being one-dimensional if you remove these options. | ||
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PieTaster
52 Posts
Anyways, collosi I'm pretty sure is what counters SH. Vipers come later than corruptors so there will be a pretty big timing where the toss can hit before hive if corruptors can no longer counter them. I'd imagine it would be similiar to terran and their vikings. I cant imagine how they would kill collosi w/o air. | ||
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JackReacher
United States197 Posts
On October 06 2012 19:36 XenoX101 wrote: Why do you want this? Are you not satisfied with how strong the Colossus is? Give us an extremely good reason why this should happen and maybe you'll be taken a bit more seriously. This is coming from a high dia/low masters P player. Colossus are already the most versatile unit in the entire game, if they can completely ignore anti-air attacks then they will become hilariously overpowered. No amount of widow mines or swarm hosts will stop Colossi since you can easily micro it back to avoid that damage, and vipers cost 100/200 and die to feedbacks + blink stalkers, plus their Abduct range is not that great against P players with quick reactions. Not even mentioning that HOTS would return to being one-dimensional if you remove these options. This thread was made assuming nerfs would be necessary to redesign the way Colossi are countered. I'm sorry, I should have specified that in the OP. The new units in HoTS simply gave me the idea. First, another question to see what opinions people have on the matter - would this be a fair change if Colossi did friendly-fire damage like Seige Tanks? It would certainly help PvP in that it would likely encourage more intelligent unit control in large engagements, and Chargelots would have to be used a LOT more carefully in all matchups, with the advantage of Colossi not being instakilled by focus fire from groups of +1 Vikings/Corruptors, which are fairly fast units. Obviously the Viking should get SOME form of ground buff, because landed Vikings are like the worst units in the game. What if they took the idea of the Warhound being an anti-armor unit, and just applied that to landed Vikings? Now you have the same units countering Colossi, and it makes mech more viable in TvP, with Battle Hellions (and Colossus friendly fire) damaging chargelots. Just a thought, as Seige Tanks have to deploy AND they do friendly fire, yet people still build them in all matchups, admittedly far less often against Protoss. Thoughts? Also - I proposed the change to Colossus air vulnerability under the assumption that it would need some form of nerf to actually balance it out. It's more an idea to slightly redesign the role they play in matchups, forcing units that are really ONLY good against Colossi, making tech switches to Storm/Archon a bit strong from Protoss. I simply meant that with new tools from all races, it might be a good idea to at least consider making the Colossus a simple ground unit (with whatever nerfs are necessary to balance it) with more interesting counters other than "mass ATA unit X and focus fire" and then get overrun by Chargelot/Archon/Storm once "ATA unit X" is useless because of a simple tech switch. I still think that landed Vikings should take on the role that Warhounds were supposed to fit; they are great air-to-air, but they completely suck on the ground and landing Vikings to fight is like pulling SCVs, it's a desperation move. If you make them a soft counter to armor, something like a weak Immortal damage-wise, but with the same hit points, they could still be a good supplement to deal with Colossi, as they ARE mobile and could be used similar to how warp prism Immortal drops are used to fight against Colossi in Robo vs. Robo PvP. I'm not for "buffing" the Colossus, make no mistake, I just want people to at least keep an open mind about changing it - it is a ground unit, after all, and all of the new toys Protoss gets in HoTS are air units, which would mean ATA might actually be a little bit too much of a no-brainer against Protoss. The only real tech switch from Colossus that actually forces a different counter is to Templar, as Colossus are countered by ATA and obviously Void Ray, Carrier, Tempest, Oracle . . . all air. In short, the reason I think giving Colossi invulnerability to air-to-air (and friendly fire damage), giving anti-armor to landed Vikings, and tweaking any necessary stats to the Colossus is to diversify the units that are necessary as counter in each matchup. The way things are going, the Colossus is Protoss' mainstay AoE ground unit, but it has the same hard counter as the Protoss air tech, something Blizzard is trying to push in HoTS to give Protoss more options. By all means, give T and Z all the tools they need to properly counter Colossi with ground units, of course; I would just like it to be a different unit than what counters an air tech-switch, so as to see Sky Toss something that can be viable in the way that Terran and Zerg can field air armies effectively in certain situations. | ||
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Seiniyta
Belgium1815 Posts
 ecrease attack speed in half*tripple the damage vs biological units *Make the collosus require a 5 second setup time before it can shoot in which it can't walk anymore. 5 seconds to 'un-siege' it again. *Increase shields and hp by 50% **values are subject to change | ||
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