EPTShould Colossus no longer count as an "air unit"? - Page 2
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SheaR619
United States2399 Posts
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Treehead
999 Posts
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Berailfor
441 Posts
In ZvP Protoss has oracles which as of now can prevent colossi from being pulled. Therefore if corruptors couldn't hurt them, nothing could. PvP is the only matchup where this change might not cause SEVERE imbalances. If what I said is false then please reply and I'd be happy to discuss with you. | ||
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Masada714
United States89 Posts
The solution to this I think would be something like remove the Massive tag and this way it can be slowed by Marauders and possibly remove Thermal Lance or only make the upgrade give it +1 or +2 range instead. Then you can adjust the cost to make it reasonably fair for both sides. Idk, something like that. | ||
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Toads
Canada1795 Posts
On October 06 2012 05:06 Masada714 wrote: The Colossus is the only ground unit that can be hit by AtA units and not only that but Vikings and Corruptors are one of the hardest counters in the game. I 've seen so many times on this forum about having such hard counters is bad for the game. I do agree that they should remove AtA attack against the Colossus but other people are right that it would be too strong if it is not nerfed as well. The solution to this I think would be something like remove the Massive tag and this way it can be slowed by Marauders and possibly remove Thermal Lance or only make the upgrade give it +1 or +2 range instead. Then you can adjust the cost to make it reasonably fair for both sides. Idk, something like that. Still, zerg would have nothing to do against them. Locust is like Hydra but weaker | ||
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Masada714
United States89 Posts
On October 06 2012 05:17 Toads wrote: Still, zerg would have nothing to do against them. Locust is like Hydra but weaker Zerg, would still be able to abduct with Viper and with a reduced range or no range upgrade it would be easier for the Z army to get closer and snipe it. | ||
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Berailfor
441 Posts
On October 06 2012 05:06 Masada714 wrote: The Colossus is the only ground unit that can be hit by AtA units and not only that but Vikings and Corruptors are one of the hardest counters in the game. I 've seen so many times on this forum about having such hard counters is bad for the game. I do agree that they should remove AtA attack against the Colossus but other people are right that it would be too strong if it is not nerfed as well. The solution to this I think would be something like remove the Massive tag and this way it can be slowed by Marauders and possibly remove Thermal Lance or only make the upgrade give it +1 or +2 range instead. Then you can adjust the cost to make it reasonably fair for both sides. Idk, something like that. First off, This isn't a scenario of a hard counter. Yes if it was 1 colossi vs 1 Viking that would be a "hard counter" but it's not. There is stalkers, sentries, zealots, marines and marauders, etc. This makes it much less of a hard counter. In fact it's quite the contrary. Now it comes down to a micro battle. Are the stalkers hitting the Vikings? Are they so far out their vulnerable to Terran bio? Are the Vikings in a good position to poke colossi without being attacked? These are all things happening because of this mechanic. I 100% disagree with you first of all, I think the AA attacks hitting colossi is a GREAT mechanic allowing for positioning to be a big deal in battles. And are you kidding?!? Reduce the range of thermal lance?! Have you seen what happens when marauders go up against colossi that don't have thermal lance?! If you don't have like 5+ colossi they just get instafocused and die, or can't shoot at all cause they're too far away. On what merit do you think your balance suggestions are worthwhile? Have you even THOUGHT of the implications of them? Apparently not, THEY WOULD BREAK THE GAME. So much would need to be changed if what you said was put into action. Cmon man think about things before you post them, especially with the new units coming out, colossi that couldn't stay behind your army would get instapulled by vipers, or instafocused by bio, and then what do you do with the Viking considered it was 100% designed around the colossi. | ||
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Tuczniak
1561 Posts
Also those reasons why terran could deal with it are pretty funny. Maybe if mines had 10 range and +100 against massive :D | ||
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CrtBalorda
Slovenia704 Posts
I think this could also cause some stupid problems in team games where collossus wreck everything. | ||
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Autofire2
Pakistan290 Posts
Yes, OP, if you assume Terran is always several leagues (literal or metaphorical) ahead of their opponents in micro and is also lucky, sure, no unit is too strong. You're asking for a perfect storm of composition, skill and luck to possibly take down the quintessential A-move unit in the game. What, you think Terran has been getting too much love in HotS? | ||
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Jukez
United States51 Posts
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vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
On October 06 2012 05:34 Jukez wrote: I think thye should also hit air. Then you wouldnt need stalkers. They need force fields and guardian shield as well and also have detection. | ||
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Masada714
United States89 Posts
On October 06 2012 05:26 Berailfor wrote: First off, This isn't a scenario of a hard counter. Yes if it was 1 colossi vs 1 Viking that would be a "hard counter" but it's not. There is stalkers, sentries, zealots, marines and marauders, etc. This makes it much less of a hard counter. In fact it's quite the contrary. Now it comes down to a micro battle. Are the stalkers hitting the Vikings? Are they so far out their vulnerable to Terran bio? Are the Vikings in a good position to poke colossi without being attacked? These are all things happening because of this mechanic. I 100% disagree with you first of all, I think the AA attacks hitting colossi is a GREAT mechanic allowing for positioning to be a big deal in battles. And are you kidding?!? Reduce the range of thermal lance?! Have you seen what happens when marauders go up against colossi that don't have thermal lance?! If you don't have like 5+ colossi they just get instafocused and die, or can't shoot at all cause they're too far away. On what merit do you think your balance suggestions are worthwhile? Have you even THOUGHT of the implications of them? Apparently not, THEY WOULD BREAK THE GAME. So much would need to be changed if what you said was put into action. Cmon man think about things before you post them, especially with the new units coming out, colossi that couldn't stay behind your army would get instapulled by vipers, or instafocused by bio, and then what do you do with the Viking considered it was 100% designed around the colossi. I'm sure you think the AA attacks is a GREAT mechanic against Colossus since it can't shoot back lol? I'm certainly well aware as to what Marauders can do against Colossus. It's not like reducing the range makes it instantly in range of everything and easily killed! In regards, to your viper comment it's not as if the viper and colossus come out at the same time to make it not worth teching to. And as for the Viking since it is an Air unit, how about it is used to fight other Air units if there is any out, if not you can focus more on medivacs or dare I say use the money that you would of spent on Vikings to further Starport tech to get BC's or Banshees. | ||
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Toads
Canada1795 Posts
On October 06 2012 05:25 Masada714 wrote: Zerg, would still be able to abduct with Viper and with a reduced range or no range upgrade it would be easier for the Z army to get closer and snipe it. So you're telling me zerg HAVE to get a hive to survive when a protoss can get 4 collosis way before it happen ? | ||
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naastyOne
491 Posts
The clif walking is interesting, the vulrnability to long-range anti-air is a needed trade-off for it`s combination of range and mobility. Oh, and what would be there instead of Colosus? The reaver-shuttle(warpprism) gimmic, that would get shut down by 5 Vikings, that only ever worked due to lack of long ranged mid-tier anti-air in BW? Seriously, that shit hardcountered bio so hard, it`s mere existance made nobody played bio vs toss. What Toss needs, is buffing stargate to the point where you could go stargate protoss instead of robo protoss. | ||
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Toads
Canada1795 Posts
On October 06 2012 05:50 naastyOne wrote: Colosus is great unit as it. The clif walking is interesting, the vulrnability to long-range anti-air is a needed trade-off for it`s combination of range and mobility. Oh, and what would be there instead of Colosus? The reaver-shuttle(warpprism) gimmic, that would get shut down by 5 Vikings, that only ever worked due to lack of long ranged mid-tier anti-air in BW? Seriously, that shit hardcountered bio so hard, it`s mere existance made nobody played bio vs toss. What are you talking about ? Blizzard try to buff mech because the only way to play against toss right now is bio ?_? | ||
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nakedsurfer
Canada500 Posts
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naastyOne
491 Posts
On October 06 2012 05:53 Toads wrote: What are you talking about ? Blizzard try to buff mech because the only way to play against toss right now is bio ?_? I was talking to idiots crying about colosus as an awfull unit, and should be removed. Some of them seriously want the return of reaver, that was ridiculously broken, because there was almost no way to deny the shulle micro in BW, and that is why in BW everyone was meching agains P. The SC2 mech, has a trouble with immortal and chargelot, not Colosus. | ||
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Berailfor
441 Posts
On October 06 2012 05:38 Masada714 wrote: I'm sure you think the AA attacks is a GREAT mechanic against Colossus since it can't shoot back lol? I'm certainly well aware as to what Marauders can do against Colossus. It's not like reducing the range makes it instantly in range of everything and easily killed! In regards, to your viper comment it's not as if the viper and colossus come out at the same time to make it not worth teching to. And as for the Viking since it is an Air unit, how about it is used to fight other Air units if there is any out, if not you can focus more on medivacs or dare I say use the money that you would of spent on Vikings to further Starport tech to get BC's or Banshees. First off I'm a toss, so using an argument suggesting I think it's a great mechanic because I can own them with Vikings is false. I already explained my reasoning, don't try to put words in my mouth, I said it makes for a positional game in which units are dancing around eachother constantly trying to pick at vulnerable spots in the others army. In small engagements with reduced range, the range would either still be long enough that Vikings are a necessity. Or it'd be not long enough that they just die to bio focusing. In large engagements, nothing Terran has as a ground unit can stand up to high colossi numbers, so you'd just lose. Seriously PvT and PvZ would be completely broken without this mechanic and would need a complete rework. I don't know how you can't see that. And yes dare you say get BC's or banshees. You'd just lose. that money not going to Vikings should be spent on more MM and ghosts. So sure, maybe because colossi would be completely broken you'd be force to make something colossi can't hit. But then you'd just die to high Templar and stalkers overwhelming you the second it was scouted. And then once again, the exact thing your trying to prevent happens, building an air unit to deal with colossi. Am I wrong? | ||
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Masada714
United States89 Posts
On October 06 2012 05:49 Toads wrote: So you're telling me zerg HAVE to get a hive to survive when a protoss can get 4 collosis way before it happen ? Not at all, just that vipers is one way for them to deal with them. That comment brings up something interesting though. How is that any different then now for Zergs, as they seem to say in ZvP try to survive until Hive and get the critical amount of Broodlords? Although, like I said with a reduced range to 7 or 8 with the upgrade it would be easier for armies to kill off the Colossus. | ||
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