|
There was some confusion (my fault entirely) about what I meant because I left out some crucial details (I do realize simply removing vulnerability to air-to-air and changing nothing else would make Colossi insanely imbalanced), so I added my response post to the OP. See bottom.
Reading the thread regarding Widow Mines not being suicide units now, I got to thinking about a change to an old Wing of Liberty standby; the Colossus. This might sound reasonable to you and it might not, but hear me out, because I thought a lot about it, and it seems like a completely fair (if not necessary) change in light of the new units in HoTS.
My logic is that between Terran's (newly changed) Widow Mines and their Battle Hellions, Zerg having the Viper and the Swarm Host, and Protoss having the Tempest . . . it's fair to make the Colossus not be vulnerable to anti-air only attacks anymore. All races will have legitimate ways of dealing with the Colossus and its range. I'll explain my thoughts by match-up.
In TvP, with Terran Widow Mines no longer suicide units, they can be a very effective way to take out Colossi, given that Terran positions everything in a smart way and gets good scans off to deny Observers. Moreover, with Battle Hellions being introduced, they will be an alternative to stimmed Marines at taking out Chargelots; one that doesn't get hard-countered by the Colossus in the way that stimmed bio does.
In ZvP, with Swarm Hosts and Vipers, Zerg now has adequate Seige AND anti-seige tools at appropriate tech levels. The Swarm Host itself acts as a cost-effective seige unit at Infestation Pit tech and can burrow by default. It spawns free units that damage ground and air alike, and can stay back with an Overseer to spot Observers. It may not counter the Colossus, but it comes at a comparable tech level and serves a similar function. At the very least, they negate one another. The Viper, with its abduct ability, come EARLY Hive tech. With this, Zerg doesn't need Corruptors to focus down Colossi anymore, as they can just yank them to their army and focus them down 1 by 1 with Roaches, Locusts, whatever Lair tech units they are fielding that hit ground. Also, unlike the Corruptor in ZvP, it's not simply a "designated anti-Colossus unit with no other role except eating supply until it turns into a Broodlord". Zerg players can invest in a useful caster unit that deals with Colossi more effectively than Corruptors, and has other roles. Also, maybe with good use of Blinding Cloud, the Viper could also help in negative the extreme range of Colossi while fast lings/roaches close the distance; Once in the face of Colossi, lings and Roaches CAN kill them, it's the run-up that ends up being suicide. I know the radius is small, but it has potential for helping minimize a LOT of damage during very large engagements, given enough Vipers to cover a good bit of ground with the spell.
Even in PvP, the Tempest outranges the Colossus, so it may not be the be-all, end-all unit for the matchup anymore. Sure, it will always be prominent, but every game can't be mass "laser wars" with air units able to hit them from that far away. Able to actually force one player to ATTACK into the other stationary player (something noone wants to do in PvP and why lategame PvP is always just mass Colossi with 4-5 Immortals, and as many Archons and Chargelots your Warpgates can possibly churn out) this could be a matchup-changer down the road by being able to force engagements, once people figure out the new timings, compositions, and the new metagame matures.
This is my opinion and I explained (for the most part) the thought process I used to come to the conclusion that I did, so I'm interested to hear what everyone has to say. Is such a change warranted, or at least worth testing/checking out, and why/why not?
Clarification (my response)
This thread was made assuming nerfs would be necessary to redesign the way Colossi are countered. I'm sorry, I should have specified that in the OP. The new units in HoTS simply gave me the idea.
First, another question to see what opinions people have on the matter - would this be a fair change if Colossi did friendly-fire damage like Seige Tanks? It would certainly help PvP in that it would likely encourage more intelligent unit control in large engagements, and Chargelots would have to be used a LOT more carefully in all matchups, with the advantage of Colossi not being instakilled by focus fire from groups of +1 Vikings/Corruptors, which are fairly fast units. Obviously the Viking should get SOME form of ground buff, because landed Vikings are like the worst units in the game. What if they took the idea of the Warhound being an anti-armor unit, and just applied that to landed Vikings? Now you have the same units countering Colossi, and it makes mech more viable in TvP, with Battle Hellions (and Colossus friendly fire) damaging chargelots. Just a thought, as Seige Tanks have to deploy AND they do friendly fire, yet people still build them in all matchups, admittedly far less often against Protoss. Thoughts?
Also - I proposed the change to Colossus air vulnerability under the assumption that it would need some form of nerf to actually balance it out. It's more an idea to slightly redesign the role they play in matchups, forcing units that are really ONLY good against Colossi, making tech switches to Storm/Archon a bit strong from Protoss. I simply meant that with new tools from all races, it might be a good idea to at least consider making the Colossus a simple ground unit (with whatever nerfs are necessary to balance it) with more interesting counters other than "mass ATA unit X and focus fire" and then get overrun by Chargelot/Archon/Storm once "ATA unit X" is useless because of a simple tech switch.
I still think that landed Vikings should take on the role that Warhounds were supposed to fit; they are great air-to-air, but they completely suck on the ground and landing Vikings to fight is like pulling SCVs, it's a desperation move. If you make them a soft counter to armor, something like a weak Immortal damage-wise, but with the same hit points, they could still be a good supplement to deal with Colossi, as they ARE mobile and could be used similar to how warp prism Immortal drops are used to fight against Colossi in Robo vs. Robo PvP.
I'm not for "buffing" the Colossus, make no mistake, I just want people to at least keep an open mind about changing it - it is a ground unit, after all, and all of the new toys Protoss gets in HoTS are air units, which would mean ATA might actually be a little bit too much of a no-brainer against Protoss. The only real tech switch from Colossus that actually forces a different counter is to Templar, as Colossus are countered by ATA and obviously Void Ray, Carrier, Tempest, Oracle . . . all air.
In short, the reason I think giving Colossi invulnerability to air-to-air (and friendly fire damage), giving anti-armor to landed Vikings, and tweaking any necessary stats to the Colossus is to diversify the units that are necessary as counter in each matchup. The way things are going, the Colossus is Protoss' mainstay AoE ground unit, but it has the same hard counter as the Protoss air tech, something Blizzard is trying to push in HoTS to give Protoss more options. By all means, give T and Z all the tools they need to properly counter Colossi with ground units, of course; I would just like it to be a different unit than what counters an air tech-switch, so as to see Sky Toss something that can be viable in the way that Terran and Zerg can field air armies effectively in certain situations.
|
Then corruptors become the worst unit in sc2, and the subsequent transition to bl virtually impossible, I highly doubt this idea will see the light of day
|
United Kingdom12022 Posts
On October 06 2012 01:59 TheLunatic wrote:
Then corruptors become the worst unit in sc2, and the subsequent transition to bl virtually impossible, I highly doubt this idea will see the light of day
Actually not entirely true. If collosus don't get hit by air, sky toss transitions are moe likely meaning that AtA will be needed later game. This could be a good idea, but only if they remove collosus standing over the top of armies.
|
I truly can't see Terran's being pleased about the suggestion of a Collossus that isn't susceptible to both ground and air type damages seeing as how that's kind of how they are able to survive with bio/viking compositions.
|
United Kingdom14103 Posts
On October 06 2012 01:22 JackReacher wrote:
In TvP, with Terran Widow Mines no longer suicide units, they can be a very effective way to take out Colossi, given that Terran positions everything in a smart way and gets good scans off to deny Observers. Moreover, with Battle Hellions being introduced, they will be an alternative to stimmed Marines at taking out Chargelots; one that doesn't get hard-countered by the Colossus in the way that stimmed bio does.
This wouldn't work too well, P always has an observer with their army so will be able to spot the mines, meaning colossi with thermal lance can just take them out.
IMO widow mines aren't the solution to colossi, but the way they are designed now lends itself perfectly to map control for T.
|
No. No, no, no, no, no, no.
I'll speak as a terran mainly here, but widow mines countering colossi? Sorry, that's never going to happen. Colossi and observers outrange "lucky scans" so heavily it's not even funny.
Also, can we stop saying widow mines have already changed? THEY HAVEN'T CHANGED YET! It's been CONSIDERED! This is why the pro forum isnt readable by all of us -_-
|
Hell no...that is a retarded idea how would Terran or Zerg stop colossus? You have to kill the whole army in front before hand or your just gonna lose everything trying to pick off 2 or 3 colossus and by that point it doesn't matter because you don't have an army anymore after that!
|
Don't think so. Vipers could possibly work for zerg, but Terran still has issues.
On October 06 2012 01:22 JackReacher wrote:
In TvP, with Terran Widow Mines no longer suicide units, they can be a very effective way to take out Colossi, given that Terran positions everything in a smart way and gets good scans off to deny Observers. Moreover, with Battle Hellions being introduced, they will be an alternative to stimmed Marines at taking out Chargelots; one that doesn't get hard-countered by the Colossus in the way that stimmed bio does.
First off, by that logic, ghosts are a good counter to colossus, and banshees are the ultimate one. You really can't rely on sniping observers, since a keen protoss will simply make multiple observers and not move out recklessly without them if you do manage to snipe them. Battle hellions definitely can take more hits from colossus, I'll give you that, but they can't charge down the colossus like stimmed bio can when the zealots are gone, and would deal low amounts of damage anyways.
|
Everyone agrees on Colossus being the dumbest unit in the game. If now you can't even get rid of it by a bunch of air units, it makes it even dumber.
Another great design idea like this?
|
In TvP, with Terran Widow Mines no longer suicide units, they can be a very effective way to take out Colossi, given that Terran positions everything in a smart way and gets good scans off to deny Observers. Moreover, with Battle Hellions being introduced, they will be an alternative to stimmed Marines at taking out Chargelots; one that doesn't get hard-countered by the Colossus in the way that stimmed bio does. Widow Mines no longer suicide when they hit something? When did that happen? (hint-it didn't)
But really, Vikings plus Scan won't take out an observer following a Colossus which is guarded by Zealot/Stalker/Sentry. You need at least 6 for that,(there's also the possibility that the Protoss will just walk home and chrono an Observer to come out in 20 seconds, congratulations you sacrificed 3 Vikings to kill a 25/75 obs with a 20 second build time(with chrono)) and even then there are at least 3-4 attack paths these days, considering it takes more than 3 widow mines to kill even one Colossus, and their short range, and the amount of attack paths... Yeah, I don't see it happening.
|
I don't think this is necessary. Is there a huge problem with Phoenixes killing Colossi in PvP? No. Will Widow mines actually counter Colossi? No. Swarm Hosts are actually countered by the Colossus/Observer combo. The only thing that I agree about is the Viper, but it doesn't necessitate a change this big, when the entire unit is built around this aspect. Spotting the high ground, being targeted from the low ground, walking over cliffs and units. I doubt Blizzard will consider this.
|
I necroed my account to say this...
NO
Thats a terrible idea. What race can beat more than 4 collosus without having aa to take it down (not counting pvp.. all you do to counter them is make them)? No one likes collosus except for the lower league players. It has been proven time and time again. Why give people more reason to hate them?
|
Yeah... No... Colossus is pretty terrible in what it does to the metagame already. About as bad ad marines really. Rather than coming up with ways to make it better, come up with ways to make it not a horrible unit in the first place.
|
Terrible idea imo, this will make bio pretty much unplayable in TvP. The point of introducing mech was to allow mech and bio to both be playable option for terran. Battlehellion does kinda get hard counter by collosus because of how slow they are. They can be kited by collosus and being forced to split your upgrade into bio and mech will eat into gas if you are proposing marauder battle hellion.
Also, battlehellion does not synergize with marauder THAT amazing well becacuse they limit the marauder mobility. I dont even wana think about how zerg going to deal with collosus since they will be FORCED to go viper every PvZ. Which lead to pretty boring game imo
|
On October 06 2012 02:20 DjayEl wrote:
Everyone agrees on Colossus being the dumbest unit in the game. If now you can't even get rid of it by a bunch of air units, it makes it even dumber.
Another great design idea like this?
I don't think everyone agrees that colossus are the dumbest unit in the game, I certainly don't so that makes not everybody, they are a strong unit sure but they aren't unbeatable. I also have read all the threads about how protoss mechanics ruin the game and i don't agree with those either and put them on par with other balance whine threads.
To the OP's suggestion it won't work this would make colossus way too strong vs terran and even zerg as well, saying you can pull in with viper is all well and good but from what I've seen investing in vipers is not a really cost efficient way to deal with colossus.
|
RIP Vikings and Corruptors. Bad idea.
|
In TvP, with Terran Widow Mines no longer suicide units, they can be a very effective way to take out Colossi, given that Terran positions everything in a smart way and gets good scans off to deny Observers. Moreover, with Battle Hellions being introduced, they will be an alternative to stimmed Marines at taking out Chargelots; one that doesn't get hard-countered by the Colossus in the way that stimmed bio does.
I don't play the Beta but I don't think that you can really attack with Widow Mines. They need time to burrow and can be killed without detection when the enemy know that they are there (Psionic Storm outranges them by 4+radius). Terrans need to focus fire every Colossus with 3 Widow Mines who have 5 range and need to be burrowed at the same place as the Colossus attack... and when they have trouble with the detection Protoss will just not attack (as the Terran can't attack them as they won't have a way to deal with the Colossi while attacking), (maybe mass Colossi as Vikings don't prevent Protoss from building more 18.2 dps (per target) units with Cliff Walk and 9 range) and wait till they see a chance to take the game. (<- boring and bad design)
To deny Observer (11 detection range) and Oracles (9 detection range, but don't need to stay within range) you will need Vikings, 270-Mineral-Scans or fragile Ravens. Both detection-units can be faster than Vikings and the Protoss really needs to walk right into the 5 range mines...
Battle Hellions will require additional gas cause they will need other Upgrades (and Factories) to deal with Chargelots.
I don't like your suggestion cause it makes TvP harder to play for Terrans and makes it easier for Protoss to sit back and defend...
In ZvP, with Swarm Hosts and Vipers, Zerg now has adequate Seige AND anti-seige tools at appropriate tech levels. The Swarm Host itself acts as a cost-effective seige unit at Infestation Pit tech and can burrow by default. It spawns free units that damage ground and air alike, and can stay back with an Overseer to spot Observers. It may not counter the Colossus, but it comes at a comparable tech level and serves a similar function. At the very least, they negate one another. The Viper, with its abduct ability, come EARLY Hive tech. With this, Zerg doesn't need Corruptors to focus down Colossi anymore, as they can just yank them to their army and focus them down 1 by 1 with Roaches, Locusts, whatever Lair tech units they are fielding that hit ground. Also, unlike the Corruptor in ZvP, it's not simply a "designated anti-Colossus unit with no other role except eating supply until it turns into a Broodlord". Zerg players can invest in a useful caster unit that deals with Colossi more effectively than Corruptors, and has other roles. Also, maybe with good use of Blinding Cloud, the Viper could also help in negative the extreme range of Colossi while fast lings/roaches close the distance; Once in the face of Colossi, lings and Roaches CAN kill them, it's the run-up that ends up being suicide. I know the radius is small, but it has potential for helping minimize a LOT of damage during very large engagements, given enough Vipers to cover a good bit of ground with the spell.
Locusts can't hit air anymore. They are actually quite bad against Aoe-damage.
Viper are costly and fragile. They need to enter the Feedback range to Abduct something and are somewhat vulnerable to Blink-Stalker. (Is the range at Liquipedia wrong? It looked shorter in streams.)
Even in PvP, the Tempest outranges the Colossus, so it may not be the be-all, end-all unit for the matchup anymore. Sure, it will always be prominent, but every game can't be mass "laser wars" with air units able to hit them from that far away. Able to actually force one player to ATTACK into the other stationary player (something noone wants to do in PvP and why lategame PvP is always just mass Colossi with 4-5 Immortals, and as many Archons and Chargelots your Warpgates can possibly churn out) this could be a matchup-changer down the road by being able to force engagements, once people figure out the new timings, compositions, and the new metagame matures.
Honestly I don't see many Protoss building air units to deny Colossus. Your suggestion only weakens Phoenix-opener and reduces options.
My logic is that between Terran's (newly changed) Widow Mines and their Battle Hellions, Zerg having the Viper and the Swarm Host, and Protoss having the Tempest . . . it's fair to make the Colossus not be vulnerable to anti-air only attacks anymore. All races will have legitimate ways of dealing with the Colossus and its range.
I guess Colossus will still be very strong. The new approaches you noted aren't that great and sometimes a lot weaker than the old approaches (Vikings).
Colossus only have two weaknesses. They can't hit air and they can be hitted by air-to-air units. They offer the best dps in the entire game (18.2 dps per target they hit), are very mobile while beeing quite save against ground units as they can stay behind or within the army with 9 range and won't even get blocked by their own army (cause they walk over the most units)... You really can't sell your suggestion as balancing.
|
Yes get rid of its vulnerability to air as long as you nerf colossus with it. It was brought up in another thread but you could change the way it does splash damage to an x shaped or a vertical line. I think could compensate for its invincibility against air.
|
Russian Federation216 Posts
i like this idea cuz im going to switch from T to P and invulnerable to terrans colossi (due their 9 range) would be nice
|
I think it would have to be a pretty big nerf to compensate for not being hit by air anymore. I just don't see how terran would be able to counter them. Vikings are a great counter due to their 9 range, sitting over your army, slightly out of range of his. The only thing terran has that would be able to hit colo like that are tanks, and those aren't exactly the most viable in TvP.
|
well they would have to sacrifice their mobility to be the speed of reaver imo that would be a good nerf and then buff their damage a little. That would be the only thing I can see working
|
Wait a minute. You think Colossi should be stronger? Give me one good reason you don't think Colossi will be plenty popular in HotS (despite the fact that it's not interesting). I'll give you one of the bat - Colossi are one of the only protoss units which kill Locusts quickly enough to actually hurt the Swarm hosts behind them.
|
No, just no. The Viking was a unit designed around the colossi. And your expectations of denying observers to make widow mines be effective against them is not only completely unreasonable, but down right impossible. How could you possibly expect observers to be denied when they are floating around with the deathball. Especially with people probably getting quicker motherships, next thing you know all your stray Vikings (if they already didn't die to blink stalkers for being out of position) will get vortexed and you'll just outright lose.
In ZvP Protoss has oracles which as of now can prevent colossi from being pulled. Therefore if corruptors couldn't hurt them, nothing could.
PvP is the only matchup where this change might not cause SEVERE imbalances.
If what I said is false then please reply and I'd be happy to discuss with you.
|
The Colossus is the only ground unit that can be hit by AtA units and not only that but Vikings and Corruptors are one of the hardest counters in the game. I 've seen so many times on this forum about having such hard counters is bad for the game. I do agree that they should remove AtA attack against the Colossus but other people are right that it would be too strong if it is not nerfed as well.
The solution to this I think would be something like remove the Massive tag and this way it can be slowed by Marauders and possibly remove Thermal Lance or only make the upgrade give it +1 or +2 range instead. Then you can adjust the cost to make it reasonably fair for both sides. Idk, something like that.
|
On October 06 2012 05:06 Masada714 wrote:
The Colossus is the only ground unit that can be hit by AtA units and not only that but Vikings and Corruptors are one of the hardest counters in the game. I 've seen so many times on this forum about having such hard counters is bad for the game. I do agree that they should remove AtA attack against the Colossus but other people are right that it would be too strong if it is not nerfed as well.
The solution to this I think would be something like remove the Massive tag and this way it can be slowed by Marauders and possibly remove Thermal Lance or only make the upgrade give it +1 or +2 range instead. Then you can adjust the cost to make it reasonably fair for both sides. Idk, something like that.
Still, zerg would have nothing to do against them. Locust is like Hydra but weaker
|
On October 06 2012 05:17 Toads wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 05:06 Masada714 wrote:
The Colossus is the only ground unit that can be hit by AtA units and not only that but Vikings and Corruptors are one of the hardest counters in the game. I 've seen so many times on this forum about having such hard counters is bad for the game. I do agree that they should remove AtA attack against the Colossus but other people are right that it would be too strong if it is not nerfed as well.
The solution to this I think would be something like remove the Massive tag and this way it can be slowed by Marauders and possibly remove Thermal Lance or only make the upgrade give it +1 or +2 range instead. Then you can adjust the cost to make it reasonably fair for both sides. Idk, something like that. Still, zerg would have nothing to do against them. Locust is like Hydra but weaker
Zerg, would still be able to abduct with Viper and with a reduced range or no range upgrade it would be easier for the Z army to get closer and snipe it.
|
On October 06 2012 05:06 Masada714 wrote:
The Colossus is the only ground unit that can be hit by AtA units and not only that but Vikings and Corruptors are one of the hardest counters in the game. I 've seen so many times on this forum about having such hard counters is bad for the game. I do agree that they should remove AtA attack against the Colossus but other people are right that it would be too strong if it is not nerfed as well.
The solution to this I think would be something like remove the Massive tag and this way it can be slowed by Marauders and possibly remove Thermal Lance or only make the upgrade give it +1 or +2 range instead. Then you can adjust the cost to make it reasonably fair for both sides. Idk, something like that.
First off, This isn't a scenario of a hard counter. Yes if it was 1 colossi vs 1 Viking that would be a "hard counter" but it's not. There is stalkers, sentries, zealots, marines and marauders, etc. This makes it much less of a hard counter. In fact it's quite the contrary. Now it comes down to a micro battle. Are the stalkers hitting the Vikings? Are they so far out their vulnerable to Terran bio? Are the Vikings in a good position to poke colossi without being attacked? These are all things happening because of this mechanic. I 100% disagree with you first of all, I think the AA attacks hitting colossi is a GREAT mechanic allowing for positioning to be a big deal in battles. And are you kidding?!? Reduce the range of thermal lance?! Have you seen what happens when marauders go up against colossi that don't have thermal lance?! If you don't have like 5+ colossi they just get instafocused and die, or can't shoot at all cause they're too far away. On what merit do you think your balance suggestions are worthwhile? Have you even THOUGHT of the implications of them? Apparently not, THEY WOULD BREAK THE GAME. So much would need to be changed if what you said was put into action. Cmon man think about things before you post them, especially with the new units coming out, colossi that couldn't stay behind your army would get instapulled by vipers, or instafocused by bio, and then what do you do with the Viking considered it was 100% designed around the colossi.
|
It would be fine if the colossus would be completely reworked. But as it is, no.
Also those reasons why terran could deal with it are pretty funny. Maybe if mines had 10 range and +100 against massive :D
|
No collosuss should no longer be in the game! Besides why would you want to buff this shitty unit unless toss is doing poorly? And you cant really judge hots balance quite yet. And I dont think that the concept of the collossus being an air and ground unit is going away.
I think this could also cause some stupid problems in team games where collossus wreck everything.
|
In TvP, with Terran Widow Mines no longer suicide units, they can be a very effective way to take out Colossi, given that Terran positions everything in a smart way and gets good scans off to deny Observers. Moreover, with Battle Hellions being introduced, they will be an alternative to stimmed Marines at taking out Chargelots; one that doesn't get hard-countered by the Colossus in the way that stimmed bio does.
Yes, OP, if you assume Terran is always several leagues (literal or metaphorical) ahead of their opponents in micro and is also lucky, sure, no unit is too strong.
You're asking for a perfect storm of composition, skill and luck to possibly take down the quintessential A-move unit in the game. What, you think Terran has been getting too much love in HotS?
|
I think thye should also hit air. Then you wouldnt need stalkers.
|
On October 06 2012 05:34 Jukez wrote:
I think thye should also hit air. Then you wouldnt need stalkers.
They need force fields and guardian shield as well and also have detection.
|
On October 06 2012 05:26 Berailfor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 05:06 Masada714 wrote:
The Colossus is the only ground unit that can be hit by AtA units and not only that but Vikings and Corruptors are one of the hardest counters in the game. I 've seen so many times on this forum about having such hard counters is bad for the game. I do agree that they should remove AtA attack against the Colossus but other people are right that it would be too strong if it is not nerfed as well.
The solution to this I think would be something like remove the Massive tag and this way it can be slowed by Marauders and possibly remove Thermal Lance or only make the upgrade give it +1 or +2 range instead. Then you can adjust the cost to make it reasonably fair for both sides. Idk, something like that. First off, This isn't a scenario of a hard counter. Yes if it was 1 colossi vs 1 Viking that would be a "hard counter" but it's not. There is stalkers, sentries, zealots, marines and marauders, etc. This makes it much less of a hard counter. In fact it's quite the contrary. Now it comes down to a micro battle. Are the stalkers hitting the Vikings? Are they so far out their vulnerable to Terran bio? Are the Vikings in a good position to poke colossi without being attacked? These are all things happening because of this mechanic. I 100% disagree with you first of all, I think the AA attacks hitting colossi is a GREAT mechanic allowing for positioning to be a big deal in battles. And are you kidding?!? Reduce the range of thermal lance?! Have you seen what happens when marauders go up against colossi that don't have thermal lance?! If you don't have like 5+ colossi they just get instafocused and die, or can't shoot at all cause they're too far away. On what merit do you think your balance suggestions are worthwhile? Have you even THOUGHT of the implications of them? Apparently not, THEY WOULD BREAK THE GAME. So much would need to be changed if what you said was put into action. Cmon man think about things before you post them, especially with the new units coming out, colossi that couldn't stay behind your army would get instapulled by vipers, or instafocused by bio, and then what do you do with the Viking considered it was 100% designed around the colossi.
I'm sure you think the AA attacks is a GREAT mechanic against Colossus since it can't shoot back lol? I'm certainly well aware as to what Marauders can do against Colossus. It's not like reducing the range makes it instantly in range of everything and easily killed! In regards, to your viper comment it's not as if the viper and colossus come out at the same time to make it not worth teching to. And as for the Viking since it is an Air unit, how about it is used to fight other Air units if there is any out, if not you can focus more on medivacs or dare I say use the money that you would of spent on Vikings to further Starport tech to get BC's or Banshees.
|
On October 06 2012 05:25 Masada714 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 05:17 Toads wrote:On October 06 2012 05:06 Masada714 wrote:
The Colossus is the only ground unit that can be hit by AtA units and not only that but Vikings and Corruptors are one of the hardest counters in the game. I 've seen so many times on this forum about having such hard counters is bad for the game. I do agree that they should remove AtA attack against the Colossus but other people are right that it would be too strong if it is not nerfed as well.
The solution to this I think would be something like remove the Massive tag and this way it can be slowed by Marauders and possibly remove Thermal Lance or only make the upgrade give it +1 or +2 range instead. Then you can adjust the cost to make it reasonably fair for both sides. Idk, something like that. Still, zerg would have nothing to do against them. Locust is like Hydra but weaker Zerg, would still be able to abduct with Viper and with a reduced range or no range upgrade it would be easier for the Z army to get closer and snipe it.
So you're telling me zerg HAVE to get a hive to survive when a protoss can get 4 collosis way before it happen ?
|
Colosus is great unit as it.
The clif walking is interesting, the vulrnability to long-range anti-air is a needed trade-off for it`s combination of range and mobility.
Oh, and what would be there instead of Colosus? The reaver-shuttle(warpprism) gimmic, that would get shut down by 5 Vikings, that only ever worked due to lack of long ranged mid-tier anti-air in BW?
Seriously, that shit hardcountered bio so hard, it`s mere existance made nobody played bio vs toss.
What Toss needs, is buffing stargate to the point where you could go stargate protoss instead of robo protoss.
|
On October 06 2012 05:50 naastyOne wrote:
Colosus is great unit as it.
The clif walking is interesting, the vulrnability to long-range anti-air is a needed trade-off for it`s combination of range and mobility.
Oh, and what would be there instead of Colosus? The reaver-shuttle(warpprism) gimmic, that would get shut down by 5 Vikings, that only ever worked due to lack of long ranged mid-tier anti-air in BW?
Seriously, that shit hardcountered bio so hard, it`s mere existance made nobody played bio vs toss.
What are you talking about ? Blizzard try to buff mech because the only way to play against toss right now is bio ?_?
|
If they made colossus not count as an air unit, they'd definitely have to nerf its damage.
|
On October 06 2012 05:53 Toads wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 05:50 naastyOne wrote:
Colosus is great unit as it.
The clif walking is interesting, the vulrnability to long-range anti-air is a needed trade-off for it`s combination of range and mobility.
Oh, and what would be there instead of Colosus? The reaver-shuttle(warpprism) gimmic, that would get shut down by 5 Vikings, that only ever worked due to lack of long ranged mid-tier anti-air in BW?
Seriously, that shit hardcountered bio so hard, it`s mere existance made nobody played bio vs toss. What are you talking about ? Blizzard try to buff mech because the only way to play against toss right now is bio ?_?
I was talking to idiots crying about colosus as an awfull unit, and should be removed.
Some of them seriously want the return of reaver, that was ridiculously broken, because there was almost no way to deny the shulle micro in BW, and that is why in BW everyone was meching agains P.
The SC2 mech, has a trouble with immortal and chargelot, not Colosus.
|
On October 06 2012 05:38 Masada714 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 05:26 Berailfor wrote:On October 06 2012 05:06 Masada714 wrote:
The Colossus is the only ground unit that can be hit by AtA units and not only that but Vikings and Corruptors are one of the hardest counters in the game. I 've seen so many times on this forum about having such hard counters is bad for the game. I do agree that they should remove AtA attack against the Colossus but other people are right that it would be too strong if it is not nerfed as well.
The solution to this I think would be something like remove the Massive tag and this way it can be slowed by Marauders and possibly remove Thermal Lance or only make the upgrade give it +1 or +2 range instead. Then you can adjust the cost to make it reasonably fair for both sides. Idk, something like that. First off, This isn't a scenario of a hard counter. Yes if it was 1 colossi vs 1 Viking that would be a "hard counter" but it's not. There is stalkers, sentries, zealots, marines and marauders, etc. This makes it much less of a hard counter. In fact it's quite the contrary. Now it comes down to a micro battle. Are the stalkers hitting the Vikings? Are they so far out their vulnerable to Terran bio? Are the Vikings in a good position to poke colossi without being attacked? These are all things happening because of this mechanic. I 100% disagree with you first of all, I think the AA attacks hitting colossi is a GREAT mechanic allowing for positioning to be a big deal in battles. And are you kidding?!? Reduce the range of thermal lance?! Have you seen what happens when marauders go up against colossi that don't have thermal lance?! If you don't have like 5+ colossi they just get instafocused and die, or can't shoot at all cause they're too far away. On what merit do you think your balance suggestions are worthwhile? Have you even THOUGHT of the implications of them? Apparently not, THEY WOULD BREAK THE GAME. So much would need to be changed if what you said was put into action. Cmon man think about things before you post them, especially with the new units coming out, colossi that couldn't stay behind your army would get instapulled by vipers, or instafocused by bio, and then what do you do with the Viking considered it was 100% designed around the colossi. I'm sure you think the AA attacks is a GREAT mechanic against Colossus since it can't shoot back lol? I'm certainly well aware as to what Marauders can do against Colossus. It's not like reducing the range makes it instantly in range of everything and easily killed! In regards, to your viper comment it's not as if the viper and colossus come out at the same time to make it not worth teching to. And as for the Viking since it is an Air unit, how about it is used to fight other Air units if there is any out, if not you can focus more on medivacs or dare I say use the money that you would of spent on Vikings to further Starport tech to get BC's or Banshees.
First off I'm a toss, so using an argument suggesting I think it's a great mechanic because I can own them with Vikings is false. I already explained my reasoning, don't try to put words in my mouth, I said it makes for a positional game in which units are dancing around eachother constantly trying to pick at vulnerable spots in the others army. In small engagements with reduced range, the range would either still be long enough that Vikings are a necessity. Or it'd be not long enough that they just die to bio focusing. In large engagements, nothing Terran has as a ground unit can stand up to high colossi numbers, so you'd just lose. Seriously PvT and PvZ would be completely broken without this mechanic and would need a complete rework. I don't know how you can't see that. And yes dare you say get BC's or banshees. You'd just lose. that money not going to Vikings should be spent on more MM and ghosts. So sure, maybe because colossi would be completely broken you'd be force to make something colossi can't hit. But then you'd just die to high Templar and stalkers overwhelming you the second it was scouted. And then once again, the exact thing your trying to prevent happens, building an air unit to deal with colossi. Am I wrong?
|
On October 06 2012 05:49 Toads wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 05:25 Masada714 wrote:On October 06 2012 05:17 Toads wrote:On October 06 2012 05:06 Masada714 wrote:
The Colossus is the only ground unit that can be hit by AtA units and not only that but Vikings and Corruptors are one of the hardest counters in the game. I 've seen so many times on this forum about having such hard counters is bad for the game. I do agree that they should remove AtA attack against the Colossus but other people are right that it would be too strong if it is not nerfed as well.
The solution to this I think would be something like remove the Massive tag and this way it can be slowed by Marauders and possibly remove Thermal Lance or only make the upgrade give it +1 or +2 range instead. Then you can adjust the cost to make it reasonably fair for both sides. Idk, something like that. Still, zerg would have nothing to do against them. Locust is like Hydra but weaker Zerg, would still be able to abduct with Viper and with a reduced range or no range upgrade it would be easier for the Z army to get closer and snipe it. So you're telling me zerg HAVE to get a hive to survive when a protoss can get 4 collosis way before it happen ?
Not at all, just that vipers is one way for them to deal with them. That comment brings up something interesting though. How is that any different then now for Zergs, as they seem to say in ZvP try to survive until Hive and get the critical amount of Broodlords? Although, like I said with a reduced range to 7 or 8 with the upgrade it would be easier for armies to kill off the Colossus.
|
this is silly you think widow mines and battle helliens are a reliable way to deal with colosuss LOL. the counter to widow mines is detection and the hellion does nothing other then kill zlots faster... i would like this if you nerfed the colousus hard which i think would make it take more skill to use and mb make it cheaper but 9 range and a ton of splash, the only way to kill it is with vikings end of story
|
On October 06 2012 05:59 Berailfor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 05:38 Masada714 wrote:On October 06 2012 05:26 Berailfor wrote:On October 06 2012 05:06 Masada714 wrote:
The Colossus is the only ground unit that can be hit by AtA units and not only that but Vikings and Corruptors are one of the hardest counters in the game. I 've seen so many times on this forum about having such hard counters is bad for the game. I do agree that they should remove AtA attack against the Colossus but other people are right that it would be too strong if it is not nerfed as well.
The solution to this I think would be something like remove the Massive tag and this way it can be slowed by Marauders and possibly remove Thermal Lance or only make the upgrade give it +1 or +2 range instead. Then you can adjust the cost to make it reasonably fair for both sides. Idk, something like that. First off, This isn't a scenario of a hard counter. Yes if it was 1 colossi vs 1 Viking that would be a "hard counter" but it's not. There is stalkers, sentries, zealots, marines and marauders, etc. This makes it much less of a hard counter. In fact it's quite the contrary. Now it comes down to a micro battle. Are the stalkers hitting the Vikings? Are they so far out their vulnerable to Terran bio? Are the Vikings in a good position to poke colossi without being attacked? These are all things happening because of this mechanic. I 100% disagree with you first of all, I think the AA attacks hitting colossi is a GREAT mechanic allowing for positioning to be a big deal in battles. And are you kidding?!? Reduce the range of thermal lance?! Have you seen what happens when marauders go up against colossi that don't have thermal lance?! If you don't have like 5+ colossi they just get instafocused and die, or can't shoot at all cause they're too far away. On what merit do you think your balance suggestions are worthwhile? Have you even THOUGHT of the implications of them? Apparently not, THEY WOULD BREAK THE GAME. So much would need to be changed if what you said was put into action. Cmon man think about things before you post them, especially with the new units coming out, colossi that couldn't stay behind your army would get instapulled by vipers, or instafocused by bio, and then what do you do with the Viking considered it was 100% designed around the colossi. I'm sure you think the AA attacks is a GREAT mechanic against Colossus since it can't shoot back lol? I'm certainly well aware as to what Marauders can do against Colossus. It's not like reducing the range makes it instantly in range of everything and easily killed! In regards, to your viper comment it's not as if the viper and colossus come out at the same time to make it not worth teching to. And as for the Viking since it is an Air unit, how about it is used to fight other Air units if there is any out, if not you can focus more on medivacs or dare I say use the money that you would of spent on Vikings to further Starport tech to get BC's or Banshees. First off I'm a toss, so using an argument suggesting I think it's a great mechanic because I can own them with Vikings is false. I already explained my reasoning, don't try to put words in my mouth, I said it makes for a positional game in which units are dancing around eachother constantly trying to pick at vulnerable spots in the others army. In small engagements with reduced range, the range would either still be long enough that Vikings are a necessity. Or it'd be not long enough that they just die to bio focusing. In large engagements, nothing Terran has as a ground unit can stand up to high colossi numbers, so you'd just lose. Seriously PvT and PvZ would be completely broken without this mechanic and would need a complete rework. I don't know how you can't see that. And yes dare you say get BC's or banshees. You'd just lose. that money not going to Vikings should be spent on more MM and ghosts. So sure, maybe because colossi would be completely broken you'd be force to make something colossi can't hit. But then you'd just die to high Templar and stalkers overwhelming you the second it was scouted. And then once again, the exact thing your trying to prevent happens, building an air unit to deal with colossi. Am I wrong?
I do apologize for assuming you were T, that is a mistake. However, I'm not convinced that removing the AtA attack against it would break PvZ and PvT. What I said was just merely a suggestion in regards to the OP topic and maybe it is not viable but since we are in Beta for HotS and when they start looking at WoL units, hey why not? The main difference for the BC/Banshee thing is that they specifically are able to hit ground, so yes you would run into the same problem with the Viking in not being able to shoot it, but that should be acceptable since that is what BC/Banshee should be able to hit.
|
LOL.... worst suggestion i have heard in a while. if you did research you would know that new widow mine suggestion is only supposed to have 5-6 range. what is gonna shoot colossus? 5-6 range widow mines can not reach them, not to mention colossus can just kill the widow mine. so thats that, and hellions are basically a melee units that runs super slow, so they would die before they even got near the colossus. swarm hosts are also super short range and vulerable to splash, their exact counter is colossus.... i could probably come up with about 50 more reasons that removing AtA against colossus would be bad idea. lol fair? i dont know man, i think you should reconsider your definition of fair.
|
On October 06 2012 02:03 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 01:59 TheLunatic wrote:
Then corruptors become the worst unit in sc2, and the subsequent transition to bl virtually impossible, I highly doubt this idea will see the light of day Actually not entirely true. If collosus don't get hit by air, sky toss transitions are moe likely meaning that AtA will be needed later game. This could be a good idea, but only if they remove collosus standing over the top of armies.
Why would air transitions be more likely if the colossus was stronger?
|
On October 06 2012 06:39 MateShade wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 02:03 Qikz wrote:On October 06 2012 01:59 TheLunatic wrote:
Then corruptors become the worst unit in sc2, and the subsequent transition to bl virtually impossible, I highly doubt this idea will see the light of day Actually not entirely true. If collosus don't get hit by air, sky toss transitions are moe likely meaning that AtA will be needed later game. This could be a good idea, but only if they remove collosus standing over the top of armies. Why would air transitions be more likely if the colossus was stronger?
Theoretically, because with colosus like it is, your enemy mases anti-air units(vikings and corruptors) to deal with them, so if you transition into air, you`ll get owned even more, since not only the colosus but your entire(air) army will become more vulrnable to superior air units of enemy.
This is kind of true, in that Protoss doesn`t quite have good air unit to controll air, compared to Vikings or corrupters. maybe carrier, but you can not produce those fast.
Although, Tempest with anti-air splash would fix that handilly.
Although, I would say that there is a problem of other races rely on air superiority way too much, to deal with colosus than they should, and if they can not win air superiority, they can have almost nothing to counter colosus, And if they have to be capable of wining air superiority, that means, they have to be capable of dealing tith toss air units in the first place.
|
Colossus has new vulnerabilities in HotS and that is a good thing. When it comes to the widow mine I'm not sure it would necessarily be effective like you say anyway.
Personally I think they should give the colossus a nerf of some sort and make up for it by giving a buff to the carrier or something.
|
On October 06 2012 07:46 happyness wrote:
Colossus has new vulnerabilities in HotS and that is a good thing. When it comes to the widow mine I'm not sure it would necessarily be effective like you say anyway.
Personally I think they should give the colossus a nerf of some sort and make up for it by giving a buff to the carrier or something.
Carrier is already super good if you manage to mass it. The problem is in not dying between starting and getting a mass of carriers. buffing a carrier will make it OP in big numbers.
Nerfing the colosus is stupid. why should the robo end-game be weak compared to stargate endgame? stargate needs better mid game, not late game.
|
On October 06 2012 01:22 JackReacher wrote:
Reading the thread regarding Widow Mines not being suicide units now, I got to thinking about a change to an old Wing of Liberty standby; the Colossus. This might sound reasonable to you and it might not, but hear me out, because I thought a lot about it, and it seems like a completely fair (if not necessary) change in light of the new units in HoTS.
My logic is that between Terran's (newly changed) Widow Mines and their Battle Hellions, Zerg having the Viper and the Swarm Host, and Protoss having the Tempest . . . it's fair to make the Colossus not be vulnerable to anti-air only attacks anymore. All races will have legitimate ways of dealing with the Colossus and its range. I'll explain my thoughts by match-up.
In TvP, with Terran Widow Mines no longer suicide units, they can be a very effective way to take out Colossi, given that Terran positions everything in a smart way and gets good scans off to deny Observers. Moreover, with Battle Hellions being introduced, they will be an alternative to stimmed Marines at taking out Chargelots; one that doesn't get hard-countered by the Colossus in the way that stimmed bio does.
Okay. So assuming a 9 range Colossus blunders into a 5 range Widow Mine deathfield, here is the toll:
Protoss:
1 Colossi, 300/200/6
Terran:
1 Scan, 270 minerals
4 Widow Mines 300/100/6 (1 to kill obs, 3 to kill the Colossi). The Widow Mines stay alive but are sitting ducks for the next 40 seconds. Doing 160 damage over 40 sec is 4 dps. A single Zergling or Marine does about 7 dps without upgrades. So it does about half the dps of an not stimmed Marine.
Yeah I don't see it happening. The Colossi is probably the last Protoss unit in the game that needs a buff.
|
United States7483 Posts
Um, I'm a protoss and all I can say is that this is a terrible idea.
|
Nope would make the colossi way way way to strong.
As a zerg swarmhosts alone do not counter colossi at all and vipers are hive tech. If colossi can't be hit by corruptors anymore I can already see a 4 colossi timing that hits just as soon as hive finishes and would kill the zerg like 100% of the time unless the protoss really really messed up.
FF+4 colossi + ground army support would just crush any zerg ground army and then making the colossi's only counter the viper would be a joke as well. In short terrible idea.
|
wtf how would colossus ever die? other than a surprise flank, with half decent control your colossus would never die. there is a reason that terrans stop building medivacs and get vikings when colossus come out. because you can't kill them otherwise. Same with Zerg going corruptor. None of the new units change that.
|
this is the dumbest idea i've ever heard. What they should do is just get rid of the colossus and give us back the reaver.
|
I would argue that the colossus is back down to being a reasonable unit in hots given the changes to the other races. making it invulnerable to air to air attacks now......... is possibly the worst idea ive ever heard.
|
On October 06 2012 01:22 JackReacher wrote:
In ZvP, with Swarm Hosts and Vipers, Zerg now has adequate Seige AND anti-seige tools at appropriate tech levels. The Swarm Host itself acts as a cost-effective seige unit at Infestation Pit tech and can burrow by default. It spawns free units that damage ground and air alike, and can stay back with an Overseer to spot Observers. It may not counter the Colossus, but it comes at a comparable tech level and serves a similar function. At the very least, they negate one another. The Viper, with its abduct ability, come EARLY Hive tech. With this, Zerg doesn't need Corruptors to focus down Colossi anymore, as they can just yank them to their army and focus them down 1 by 1 with Roaches, Locusts, whatever Lair tech units they are fielding that hit ground. Also, unlike the Corruptor in ZvP, it's not simply a "designated anti-Colossus unit with no other role except eating supply until it turns into a Broodlord". Zerg players can invest in a useful caster unit that deals with Colossi more effectively than Corruptors, and has other roles. Also, maybe with good use of Blinding Cloud, the Viper could also help in negative the extreme range of Colossi while fast lings/roaches close the distance; Once in the face of Colossi, lings and Roaches CAN kill them, it's the run-up that ends up being suicide. I know the radius is small, but it has potential for helping minimize a LOT of damage during very large engagements, given enough Vipers to cover a good bit of ground with the spell.
lol this is a post of a lazy toss player who A moves a death ball. In all honesty i don't know why im arguing it. but regardless
A. Just because colossi can be hit by curruptors/vikings doesn't mean they will actually kill them. Vikings and curruptors aren't cheap either. It requires some micro, and hey there is even a cast called "hallucination" have you heard of it, where i'm here killing fake colos.
B. Hive tech requires 3 base to not be an all in, meaning truthfully you won't see vipers on the field till after the 12-13 min mark...which by then you could have a 1-3 colo push.
C. Have you heard of feedback...that works against casters like vipers right?
D. IT WOULD BE IMPOSSIBLE TO KILL ARMIES OF 5+ Colossi
|
this would reduce bio play in TvP to Zero....
i am not a fan of limiting options.
|
On October 06 2012 10:05 blade55555 wrote:
Nope would make the colossi way way way to strong.
As a zerg swarmhosts alone do not counter colossi at all and vipers are hive tech. If colossi can't be hit by corruptors anymore I can already see a 4 colossi timing that hits just as soon as hive finishes and would kill the zerg like 100% of the time unless the protoss really really messed up.
FF+4 colossi + ground army support would just crush any zerg ground army and then making the colossi's only counter the viper would be a joke as well. In short terrible idea.
basically this. you cant make colossi not be hit by air while keeping FF so there is no way colossi can be attacked. if you would make colossi not be hit by air (which isnt a bad idea since it would make stargate play more viable and you could make corruptor a more interesting unit/replace it with other unit) but you would have to fix the FF issue with it.
i really hope they adress FF at least in LOTV and replace it with a non-micro preventing spell like another shield that increases dmg/hp etc. or sth. like shield battery. that way you could micro and kill the colossi and make colossi a non "air" unit. as is: no way colossi becomes a non "air" unit.
|
Why do you want this? Are you not satisfied with how strong the Colossus is? Give us an extremely good reason why this should happen and maybe you'll be taken a bit more seriously.
This is coming from a high dia/low masters P player. Colossus are already the most versatile unit in the entire game, if they can completely ignore anti-air attacks then they will become hilariously overpowered. No amount of widow mines or swarm hosts will stop Colossi since you can easily micro it back to avoid that damage, and vipers cost 100/200 and die to feedbacks + blink stalkers, plus their Abduct range is not that great against P players with quick reactions. Not even mentioning that HOTS would return to being one-dimensional if you remove these options.
|
Locusts don't even hit air anymore....
Anyways, collosi I'm pretty sure is what counters SH. Vipers come later than corruptors so there will be a pretty big timing where the toss can hit before hive if corruptors can no longer counter them. I'd imagine it would be similiar to terran and their vikings. I cant imagine how they would kill collosi w/o air.
|
On October 06 2012 19:36 XenoX101 wrote:
Why do you want this? Are you not satisfied with how strong the Colossus is? Give us an extremely good reason why this should happen and maybe you'll be taken a bit more seriously.
This is coming from a high dia/low masters P player. Colossus are already the most versatile unit in the entire game, if they can completely ignore anti-air attacks then they will become hilariously overpowered. No amount of widow mines or swarm hosts will stop Colossi since you can easily micro it back to avoid that damage, and vipers cost 100/200 and die to feedbacks + blink stalkers, plus their Abduct range is not that great against P players with quick reactions. Not even mentioning that HOTS would return to being one-dimensional if you remove these options.
This thread was made assuming nerfs would be necessary to redesign the way Colossi are countered. I'm sorry, I should have specified that in the OP. The new units in HoTS simply gave me the idea.
First, another question to see what opinions people have on the matter - would this be a fair change if Colossi did friendly-fire damage like Seige Tanks? It would certainly help PvP in that it would likely encourage more intelligent unit control in large engagements, and Chargelots would have to be used a LOT more carefully in all matchups, with the advantage of Colossi not being instakilled by focus fire from groups of +1 Vikings/Corruptors, which are fairly fast units. Obviously the Viking should get SOME form of ground buff, because landed Vikings are like the worst units in the game. What if they took the idea of the Warhound being an anti-armor unit, and just applied that to landed Vikings? Now you have the same units countering Colossi, and it makes mech more viable in TvP, with Battle Hellions (and Colossus friendly fire) damaging chargelots. Just a thought, as Seige Tanks have to deploy AND they do friendly fire, yet people still build them in all matchups, admittedly far less often against Protoss. Thoughts?
Also - I proposed the change to Colossus air vulnerability under the assumption that it would need some form of nerf to actually balance it out. It's more an idea to slightly redesign the role they play in matchups, forcing units that are really ONLY good against Colossi, making tech switches to Storm/Archon a bit strong from Protoss. I simply meant that with new tools from all races, it might be a good idea to at least consider making the Colossus a simple ground unit (with whatever nerfs are necessary to balance it) with more interesting counters other than "mass ATA unit X and focus fire" and then get overrun by Chargelot/Archon/Storm once "ATA unit X" is useless because of a simple tech switch.
I still think that landed Vikings should take on the role that Warhounds were supposed to fit; they are great air-to-air, but they completely suck on the ground and landing Vikings to fight is like pulling SCVs, it's a desperation move. If you make them a soft counter to armor, something like a weak Immortal damage-wise, but with the same hit points, they could still be a good supplement to deal with Colossi, as they ARE mobile and could be used similar to how warp prism Immortal drops are used to fight against Colossi in Robo vs. Robo PvP.
I'm not for "buffing" the Colossus, make no mistake, I just want people to at least keep an open mind about changing it - it is a ground unit, after all, and all of the new toys Protoss gets in HoTS are air units, which would mean ATA might actually be a little bit too much of a no-brainer against Protoss. The only real tech switch from Colossus that actually forces a different counter is to Templar, as Colossus are countered by ATA and obviously Void Ray, Carrier, Tempest, Oracle . . . all air.
In short, the reason I think giving Colossi invulnerability to air-to-air (and friendly fire damage), giving anti-armor to landed Vikings, and tweaking any necessary stats to the Colossus is to diversify the units that are necessary as counter in each matchup. The way things are going, the Colossus is Protoss' mainstay AoE ground unit, but it has the same hard counter as the Protoss air tech, something Blizzard is trying to push in HoTS to give Protoss more options. By all means, give T and Z all the tools they need to properly counter Colossi with ground units, of course; I would just like it to be a different unit than what counters an air tech-switch, so as to see Sky Toss something that can be viable in the way that Terran and Zerg can field air armies effectively in certain situations.
|
*Remove Collosus being able to hit by air
 ecrease attack speed in half
*tripple the damage vs biological units
*Make the collosus require a 5 second setup time before it can shoot in which it can't walk anymore. 5 seconds to 'un-siege' it again.
*Increase shields and hp by 50%
**values are subject to change
|
I don't know about all that, but I think a slight redesign is in order, because with the new HoTS units, the Colossus' being countered by anti-air units is redundant as all races are being given tools that either counter the Colossus as a ground unit or fill a similar role to the Colossus, creating an equal playing field.
With it being countered as though it were an air unit, it will be a useless tech switch both TO Colossus FROM air, and FROM Colossus TO air, as Void Ray/Tempest/Carrier and Colossus have the EXACT same counters in anti-capital ship units like Vikings and Corruptors. It just doesn't make sense when things like Vipers are designed to counter the Colossus as a ground unit; it makes buffing SkyToss completely pointless as one can simply mass up Viking/Corruptor and be safe against virtually ANY high-supply strong Protoss lategame unit.
Imagine if Broodlords could be hit by Marauders and were dealt bonus damage, and how this would affect TvZ and the viability of tech switches between Ultralisk and Broodlord. It's the same exact situation with the new Protoss units all being air while Colossus is still countered by the very units that counter Toss air. If Colossus can be hit by anti-air, you may as well make Broodlords and Battlecruisers vulnerable to Immortals, because that's exactly what the situation amounts to.
|
PvT would become a 99% win ratio at lower leagues and a 75% win ratio at higher leagues
Don't need evidence for that
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
