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There was some confusion (my fault entirely) about what I meant because I left out some crucial details (I do realize simply removing vulnerability to air-to-air and changing nothing else would make Colossi insanely imbalanced), so I added my response post to the OP. See bottom.
Reading the thread regarding Widow Mines not being suicide units now, I got to thinking about a change to an old Wing of Liberty standby; the Colossus. This might sound reasonable to you and it might not, but hear me out, because I thought a lot about it, and it seems like a completely fair (if not necessary) change in light of the new units in HoTS.
My logic is that between Terran's (newly changed) Widow Mines and their Battle Hellions, Zerg having the Viper and the Swarm Host, and Protoss having the Tempest . . . it's fair to make the Colossus not be vulnerable to anti-air only attacks anymore. All races will have legitimate ways of dealing with the Colossus and its range. I'll explain my thoughts by match-up.
In TvP, with Terran Widow Mines no longer suicide units, they can be a very effective way to take out Colossi, given that Terran positions everything in a smart way and gets good scans off to deny Observers. Moreover, with Battle Hellions being introduced, they will be an alternative to stimmed Marines at taking out Chargelots; one that doesn't get hard-countered by the Colossus in the way that stimmed bio does.
In ZvP, with Swarm Hosts and Vipers, Zerg now has adequate Seige AND anti-seige tools at appropriate tech levels. The Swarm Host itself acts as a cost-effective seige unit at Infestation Pit tech and can burrow by default. It spawns free units that damage ground and air alike, and can stay back with an Overseer to spot Observers. It may not counter the Colossus, but it comes at a comparable tech level and serves a similar function. At the very least, they negate one another. The Viper, with its abduct ability, come EARLY Hive tech. With this, Zerg doesn't need Corruptors to focus down Colossi anymore, as they can just yank them to their army and focus them down 1 by 1 with Roaches, Locusts, whatever Lair tech units they are fielding that hit ground. Also, unlike the Corruptor in ZvP, it's not simply a "designated anti-Colossus unit with no other role except eating supply until it turns into a Broodlord". Zerg players can invest in a useful caster unit that deals with Colossi more effectively than Corruptors, and has other roles. Also, maybe with good use of Blinding Cloud, the Viper could also help in negative the extreme range of Colossi while fast lings/roaches close the distance; Once in the face of Colossi, lings and Roaches CAN kill them, it's the run-up that ends up being suicide. I know the radius is small, but it has potential for helping minimize a LOT of damage during very large engagements, given enough Vipers to cover a good bit of ground with the spell.
Even in PvP, the Tempest outranges the Colossus, so it may not be the be-all, end-all unit for the matchup anymore. Sure, it will always be prominent, but every game can't be mass "laser wars" with air units able to hit them from that far away. Able to actually force one player to ATTACK into the other stationary player (something noone wants to do in PvP and why lategame PvP is always just mass Colossi with 4-5 Immortals, and as many Archons and Chargelots your Warpgates can possibly churn out) this could be a matchup-changer down the road by being able to force engagements, once people figure out the new timings, compositions, and the new metagame matures.
This is my opinion and I explained (for the most part) the thought process I used to come to the conclusion that I did, so I'm interested to hear what everyone has to say. Is such a change warranted, or at least worth testing/checking out, and why/why not?
Clarification (my response)
This thread was made assuming nerfs would be necessary to redesign the way Colossi are countered. I'm sorry, I should have specified that in the OP. The new units in HoTS simply gave me the idea.
First, another question to see what opinions people have on the matter - would this be a fair change if Colossi did friendly-fire damage like Seige Tanks? It would certainly help PvP in that it would likely encourage more intelligent unit control in large engagements, and Chargelots would have to be used a LOT more carefully in all matchups, with the advantage of Colossi not being instakilled by focus fire from groups of +1 Vikings/Corruptors, which are fairly fast units. Obviously the Viking should get SOME form of ground buff, because landed Vikings are like the worst units in the game. What if they took the idea of the Warhound being an anti-armor unit, and just applied that to landed Vikings? Now you have the same units countering Colossi, and it makes mech more viable in TvP, with Battle Hellions (and Colossus friendly fire) damaging chargelots. Just a thought, as Seige Tanks have to deploy AND they do friendly fire, yet people still build them in all matchups, admittedly far less often against Protoss. Thoughts?
Also - I proposed the change to Colossus air vulnerability under the assumption that it would need some form of nerf to actually balance it out. It's more an idea to slightly redesign the role they play in matchups, forcing units that are really ONLY good against Colossi, making tech switches to Storm/Archon a bit strong from Protoss. I simply meant that with new tools from all races, it might be a good idea to at least consider making the Colossus a simple ground unit (with whatever nerfs are necessary to balance it) with more interesting counters other than "mass ATA unit X and focus fire" and then get overrun by Chargelot/Archon/Storm once "ATA unit X" is useless because of a simple tech switch.
I still think that landed Vikings should take on the role that Warhounds were supposed to fit; they are great air-to-air, but they completely suck on the ground and landing Vikings to fight is like pulling SCVs, it's a desperation move. If you make them a soft counter to armor, something like a weak Immortal damage-wise, but with the same hit points, they could still be a good supplement to deal with Colossi, as they ARE mobile and could be used similar to how warp prism Immortal drops are used to fight against Colossi in Robo vs. Robo PvP.
I'm not for "buffing" the Colossus, make no mistake, I just want people to at least keep an open mind about changing it - it is a ground unit, after all, and all of the new toys Protoss gets in HoTS are air units, which would mean ATA might actually be a little bit too much of a no-brainer against Protoss. The only real tech switch from Colossus that actually forces a different counter is to Templar, as Colossus are countered by ATA and obviously Void Ray, Carrier, Tempest, Oracle . . . all air.
In short, the reason I think giving Colossi invulnerability to air-to-air (and friendly fire damage), giving anti-armor to landed Vikings, and tweaking any necessary stats to the Colossus is to diversify the units that are necessary as counter in each matchup. The way things are going, the Colossus is Protoss' mainstay AoE ground unit, but it has the same hard counter as the Protoss air tech, something Blizzard is trying to push in HoTS to give Protoss more options. By all means, give T and Z all the tools they need to properly counter Colossi with ground units, of course; I would just like it to be a different unit than what counters an air tech-switch, so as to see Sky Toss something that can be viable in the way that Terran and Zerg can field air armies effectively in certain situations.
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Then corruptors become the worst unit in sc2, and the subsequent transition to bl virtually impossible, I highly doubt this idea will see the light of day
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
On October 06 2012 01:59 TheLunatic wrote:
Then corruptors become the worst unit in sc2, and the subsequent transition to bl virtually impossible, I highly doubt this idea will see the light of day
Actually not entirely true. If collosus don't get hit by air, sky toss transitions are moe likely meaning that AtA will be needed later game. This could be a good idea, but only if they remove collosus standing over the top of armies.
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I truly can't see Terran's being pleased about the suggestion of a Collossus that isn't susceptible to both ground and air type damages seeing as how that's kind of how they are able to survive with bio/viking compositions.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On October 06 2012 01:22 JackReacher wrote:
In TvP, with Terran Widow Mines no longer suicide units, they can be a very effective way to take out Colossi, given that Terran positions everything in a smart way and gets good scans off to deny Observers. Moreover, with Battle Hellions being introduced, they will be an alternative to stimmed Marines at taking out Chargelots; one that doesn't get hard-countered by the Colossus in the way that stimmed bio does.
This wouldn't work too well, P always has an observer with their army so will be able to spot the mines, meaning colossi with thermal lance can just take them out.
IMO widow mines aren't the solution to colossi, but the way they are designed now lends itself perfectly to map control for T.
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No. No, no, no, no, no, no.
I'll speak as a terran mainly here, but widow mines countering colossi? Sorry, that's never going to happen. Colossi and observers outrange "lucky scans" so heavily it's not even funny.
Also, can we stop saying widow mines have already changed? THEY HAVEN'T CHANGED YET! It's been CONSIDERED! This is why the pro forum isnt readable by all of us -_-
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Hell no...that is a retarded idea how would Terran or Zerg stop colossus? You have to kill the whole army in front before hand or your just gonna lose everything trying to pick off 2 or 3 colossus and by that point it doesn't matter because you don't have an army anymore after that!
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Don't think so. Vipers could possibly work for zerg, but Terran still has issues.
On October 06 2012 01:22 JackReacher wrote:
In TvP, with Terran Widow Mines no longer suicide units, they can be a very effective way to take out Colossi, given that Terran positions everything in a smart way and gets good scans off to deny Observers. Moreover, with Battle Hellions being introduced, they will be an alternative to stimmed Marines at taking out Chargelots; one that doesn't get hard-countered by the Colossus in the way that stimmed bio does.
First off, by that logic, ghosts are a good counter to colossus, and banshees are the ultimate one. You really can't rely on sniping observers, since a keen protoss will simply make multiple observers and not move out recklessly without them if you do manage to snipe them. Battle hellions definitely can take more hits from colossus, I'll give you that, but they can't charge down the colossus like stimmed bio can when the zealots are gone, and would deal low amounts of damage anyways.
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Everyone agrees on Colossus being the dumbest unit in the game. If now you can't even get rid of it by a bunch of air units, it makes it even dumber.
Another great design idea like this?
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In TvP, with Terran Widow Mines no longer suicide units, they can be a very effective way to take out Colossi, given that Terran positions everything in a smart way and gets good scans off to deny Observers. Moreover, with Battle Hellions being introduced, they will be an alternative to stimmed Marines at taking out Chargelots; one that doesn't get hard-countered by the Colossus in the way that stimmed bio does. Widow Mines no longer suicide when they hit something? When did that happen? (hint-it didn't)
But really, Vikings plus Scan won't take out an observer following a Colossus which is guarded by Zealot/Stalker/Sentry. You need at least 6 for that,(there's also the possibility that the Protoss will just walk home and chrono an Observer to come out in 20 seconds, congratulations you sacrificed 3 Vikings to kill a 25/75 obs with a 20 second build time(with chrono)) and even then there are at least 3-4 attack paths these days, considering it takes more than 3 widow mines to kill even one Colossus, and their short range, and the amount of attack paths... Yeah, I don't see it happening.
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I don't think this is necessary. Is there a huge problem with Phoenixes killing Colossi in PvP? No. Will Widow mines actually counter Colossi? No. Swarm Hosts are actually countered by the Colossus/Observer combo. The only thing that I agree about is the Viper, but it doesn't necessitate a change this big, when the entire unit is built around this aspect. Spotting the high ground, being targeted from the low ground, walking over cliffs and units. I doubt Blizzard will consider this.
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I necroed my account to say this...
NO
Thats a terrible idea. What race can beat more than 4 collosus without having aa to take it down (not counting pvp.. all you do to counter them is make them)? No one likes collosus except for the lower league players. It has been proven time and time again. Why give people more reason to hate them?
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Yeah... No... Colossus is pretty terrible in what it does to the metagame already. About as bad ad marines really. Rather than coming up with ways to make it better, come up with ways to make it not a horrible unit in the first place.
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Terrible idea imo, this will make bio pretty much unplayable in TvP. The point of introducing mech was to allow mech and bio to both be playable option for terran. Battlehellion does kinda get hard counter by collosus because of how slow they are. They can be kited by collosus and being forced to split your upgrade into bio and mech will eat into gas if you are proposing marauder battle hellion.
Also, battlehellion does not synergize with marauder THAT amazing well becacuse they limit the marauder mobility. I dont even wana think about how zerg going to deal with collosus since they will be FORCED to go viper every PvZ. Which lead to pretty boring game imo
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On October 06 2012 02:20 DjayEl wrote:
Everyone agrees on Colossus being the dumbest unit in the game. If now you can't even get rid of it by a bunch of air units, it makes it even dumber.
Another great design idea like this?
I don't think everyone agrees that colossus are the dumbest unit in the game, I certainly don't so that makes not everybody, they are a strong unit sure but they aren't unbeatable. I also have read all the threads about how protoss mechanics ruin the game and i don't agree with those either and put them on par with other balance whine threads.
To the OP's suggestion it won't work this would make colossus way too strong vs terran and even zerg as well, saying you can pull in with viper is all well and good but from what I've seen investing in vipers is not a really cost efficient way to deal with colossus.
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RIP Vikings and Corruptors. Bad idea.
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In TvP, with Terran Widow Mines no longer suicide units, they can be a very effective way to take out Colossi, given that Terran positions everything in a smart way and gets good scans off to deny Observers. Moreover, with Battle Hellions being introduced, they will be an alternative to stimmed Marines at taking out Chargelots; one that doesn't get hard-countered by the Colossus in the way that stimmed bio does.
I don't play the Beta but I don't think that you can really attack with Widow Mines. They need time to burrow and can be killed without detection when the enemy know that they are there (Psionic Storm outranges them by 4+radius). Terrans need to focus fire every Colossus with 3 Widow Mines who have 5 range and need to be burrowed at the same place as the Colossus attack... and when they have trouble with the detection Protoss will just not attack (as the Terran can't attack them as they won't have a way to deal with the Colossi while attacking), (maybe mass Colossi as Vikings don't prevent Protoss from building more 18.2 dps (per target) units with Cliff Walk and 9 range) and wait till they see a chance to take the game. (<- boring and bad design)
To deny Observer (11 detection range) and Oracles (9 detection range, but don't need to stay within range) you will need Vikings, 270-Mineral-Scans or fragile Ravens. Both detection-units can be faster than Vikings and the Protoss really needs to walk right into the 5 range mines...
Battle Hellions will require additional gas cause they will need other Upgrades (and Factories) to deal with Chargelots.
I don't like your suggestion cause it makes TvP harder to play for Terrans and makes it easier for Protoss to sit back and defend...
In ZvP, with Swarm Hosts and Vipers, Zerg now has adequate Seige AND anti-seige tools at appropriate tech levels. The Swarm Host itself acts as a cost-effective seige unit at Infestation Pit tech and can burrow by default. It spawns free units that damage ground and air alike, and can stay back with an Overseer to spot Observers. It may not counter the Colossus, but it comes at a comparable tech level and serves a similar function. At the very least, they negate one another. The Viper, with its abduct ability, come EARLY Hive tech. With this, Zerg doesn't need Corruptors to focus down Colossi anymore, as they can just yank them to their army and focus them down 1 by 1 with Roaches, Locusts, whatever Lair tech units they are fielding that hit ground. Also, unlike the Corruptor in ZvP, it's not simply a "designated anti-Colossus unit with no other role except eating supply until it turns into a Broodlord". Zerg players can invest in a useful caster unit that deals with Colossi more effectively than Corruptors, and has other roles. Also, maybe with good use of Blinding Cloud, the Viper could also help in negative the extreme range of Colossi while fast lings/roaches close the distance; Once in the face of Colossi, lings and Roaches CAN kill them, it's the run-up that ends up being suicide. I know the radius is small, but it has potential for helping minimize a LOT of damage during very large engagements, given enough Vipers to cover a good bit of ground with the spell.
Locusts can't hit air anymore. They are actually quite bad against Aoe-damage.
Viper are costly and fragile. They need to enter the Feedback range to Abduct something and are somewhat vulnerable to Blink-Stalker. (Is the range at Liquipedia wrong? It looked shorter in streams.)
Even in PvP, the Tempest outranges the Colossus, so it may not be the be-all, end-all unit for the matchup anymore. Sure, it will always be prominent, but every game can't be mass "laser wars" with air units able to hit them from that far away. Able to actually force one player to ATTACK into the other stationary player (something noone wants to do in PvP and why lategame PvP is always just mass Colossi with 4-5 Immortals, and as many Archons and Chargelots your Warpgates can possibly churn out) this could be a matchup-changer down the road by being able to force engagements, once people figure out the new timings, compositions, and the new metagame matures.
Honestly I don't see many Protoss building air units to deny Colossus. Your suggestion only weakens Phoenix-opener and reduces options.
My logic is that between Terran's (newly changed) Widow Mines and their Battle Hellions, Zerg having the Viper and the Swarm Host, and Protoss having the Tempest . . . it's fair to make the Colossus not be vulnerable to anti-air only attacks anymore. All races will have legitimate ways of dealing with the Colossus and its range.
I guess Colossus will still be very strong. The new approaches you noted aren't that great and sometimes a lot weaker than the old approaches (Vikings).
Colossus only have two weaknesses. They can't hit air and they can be hitted by air-to-air units. They offer the best dps in the entire game (18.2 dps per target they hit), are very mobile while beeing quite save against ground units as they can stay behind or within the army with 9 range and won't even get blocked by their own army (cause they walk over the most units)... You really can't sell your suggestion as balancing.
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Yes get rid of its vulnerability to air as long as you nerf colossus with it. It was brought up in another thread but you could change the way it does splash damage to an x shaped or a vertical line. I think could compensate for its invincibility against air.
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Russian Federation216 Posts
i like this idea cuz im going to switch from T to P and invulnerable to terrans colossi (due their 9 range) would be nice
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I think it would have to be a pretty big nerf to compensate for not being hit by air anymore. I just don't see how terran would be able to counter them. Vikings are a great counter due to their 9 range, sitting over your army, slightly out of range of his. The only thing terran has that would be able to hit colo like that are tanks, and those aren't exactly the most viable in TvP.
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EPT
