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On September 21 2012 00:44 LgNKami wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 00:20 Big J wrote:On September 20 2012 23:59 LgNKami wrote:On September 20 2012 23:53 Big J wrote:
I did only watch up to 10mins, but I absolutly didn't want to watch any further, as I just completly disagree. Awesome gameplay is created by units that are balanced in ways so that they are used actively all the time.
Just using his examples:
Reaper: 5rax reaper was completly overpowered, but it was awesome to play with, awesome tense to watch and even playing against it, was in a way awesome, because it felt soooo good when you could beat it, while it was sooooo tense all the time.
What they did with the reaper was nerf it into an underpowered state. What they should have done, is BALANCE IT in a way that reapers would still get used! Find that sweetspot that creates tense gameplay, where most of the time a player will get an advantage of it, but not wins or loses straight up.
Tempest: it's a unit that shoots the opponent. Always (not anymore with 15range, but I'd hope it gets a little bit more again throughout the beta). If properly BALANCED. How does that not create tense moments? What the game needs is more units that can attack even if you don't allin.
The HotS units are some of the best ideas because if we look at them:
Oracle: fast harass unit; support unit for hit squads against fungal - introduces more active play
Tempest: long ranged unit; when properly used, it should shoot the opponent and force a reaction that is not "turtle harder) - introduces active play
MS Core: Allows Protoss to walk out on the map early; introduces active play
Swarm Host: Sends Units to the opponent from long range; Should always do that, because the unit should be safe itself. - introduces active play
Battle Hellion: allows the hellion to be a better combat unit if need be; producing more fast harass units means more active play.
Basically the only unit that is somewhat questionable in terms of more active play is the widow mine, as it could turn out that the best way to play against it would be to sit back and not move until you are ready to clear the map from minefields with a huge army (though for that the widow mine would have to be properly balanced first)
What blizzard needs to do, is balance units in ways so that they actually can do more stuff, even if the opponent turtles, while diminishing their all-in potential. In WoL, mostly just the 2nd one has been done.
It's not a question of design, if the reaper is overpowered. It's a question of "how close is the battle between reapers and the defender". sure balance is good, but if everything is already balanced in the beta or even before it, why not just release the game? Considering that you said that you stopped listening 10 minutes in means that youdidnt hear anything else that he had to say regarding the issue. Yeah, listened to the rest now. All he talks is stuff that can and should be achieved via balance. Thors are too bad anti air vs anthing but mutalisks? Buff it against other things. AoE is too good? Nerf it. Marines are too good in big balls now? Nerf the big balls. There are a lot of simple parameters that are responsible for that (supply, range, dps, upgrades, production) There is literarily nothing that he mentioned, that could not be dealt with by balancing. almost everything you said goes against each other though. Only way to nerf big balls of marines is to have good aoe, but you also said nerf aoe. Thors are made to counter light air units, viking is supposed to counter everything else as the viking is basically a goliath that isnt ground based and doesnt have an aoe aa-attack.Maybe remove the viking and the thor to replace them with a bw goliath? marines do a ton of damage but only when together, if you make them spread then they are in small groups (1-3 if you are good at splitting). A single zealot or archon can clean up 3 marines easily right? just throwing around some random ideas.
Why is the only way to nerf marines good AoE? (apart from me not thinking that there is anything wrong with the relationship between AoE and Marines) Make marines bigger and give them less range and less dps and suddenly big marine balls suck hardcore, because instead of 50marines shooting at once, only 30will shoot and 20 will try to hump their big fat frontman.
Of course really balancing everything out with the the parameter changes I wrote is hard as it will create other problems. But autospread will give you incredible problems as well.
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On September 21 2012 00:23 Dephy wrote:
ehm i think you got it wrong, tvp in wol playing mech is not viable(at any level), what they are trying to make is make mech viable. The most easy way would just remove thor cannons and its mana. guess what? instead of 200hp 300min/200gas unit, you have 400hp unit.. problem solved tvp mech viable.
Second your comment about positioning is bullshit, because there is no positioning in low lvl games, terran mech armies lose in straight up battles. For example terran is sieged up, toss a moves, both players does zero micro, toss wins.
Now can you explain a noob why he cant make high tech unit in certain mu and must really on first avaible bio units? And why is that not imbalanced.
As far as i am aware both ZERG and TOSS pretty much can make all units in every mu, especially on low level. So why cant terran make half of there tech tree units. Your logic is flawed.
Zerg has to make lings/spine crawlers/queens to defend before they even think about going to stuff like mutas, you think thats imbalanced too? Or how Protoss has to make zealots, stalkers, and sentries before they can branch of into templar tech or robo tech. I guess thats imbalanced too.
I understand what you're saying about how terran cant make half of there tech tree but, do you notice how terran players dont ever transition into mech and instead just plain out start making factories with a ton of mech units? If I was a zerg or toss player, I would read it and then simply counter it. No race should be able to just "tech" without some kind of problem, especially the way the terran players try to tech when they play mech. Protoss dont rush for collosus or templar. Why? because its bad and will cause you to lose the game simply because you dont have enough units to defend yourself. Same with zerg. Why should terran be any different?
I am a terran player btw but this I always try to play the devils advocate. Players wonder why mech doesnt work, well maybe if you actually did something throughout the early and mid-game instead of turtling on 2-3 bases, you would probably be in a better position to transition to mech.
The ONLY thing that could be wrong with mech in tvp is the Thor, BUT a high templar should not be able to get in range of a thor to feedback it thanks to ghosts and how they outrange templar with both snipe and emp. If you dont make ghosts simply because you want an all-mech army, then you will just lose simply because emp is an important part of TvP that should not be left out of any unit comp in WoL. Even if you go sky-terran vs P, you still need to be able to deal with feedbacks and storms.
On September 21 2012 00:52 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 00:44 LgNKami wrote:On September 21 2012 00:20 Big J wrote:On September 20 2012 23:59 LgNKami wrote:On September 20 2012 23:53 Big J wrote:
I did only watch up to 10mins, but I absolutly didn't want to watch any further, as I just completly disagree. Awesome gameplay is created by units that are balanced in ways so that they are used actively all the time.
Just using his examples:
Reaper: 5rax reaper was completly overpowered, but it was awesome to play with, awesome tense to watch and even playing against it, was in a way awesome, because it felt soooo good when you could beat it, while it was sooooo tense all the time.
What they did with the reaper was nerf it into an underpowered state. What they should have done, is BALANCE IT in a way that reapers would still get used! Find that sweetspot that creates tense gameplay, where most of the time a player will get an advantage of it, but not wins or loses straight up.
Tempest: it's a unit that shoots the opponent. Always (not anymore with 15range, but I'd hope it gets a little bit more again throughout the beta). If properly BALANCED. How does that not create tense moments? What the game needs is more units that can attack even if you don't allin.
The HotS units are some of the best ideas because if we look at them:
Oracle: fast harass unit; support unit for hit squads against fungal - introduces more active play
Tempest: long ranged unit; when properly used, it should shoot the opponent and force a reaction that is not "turtle harder) - introduces active play
MS Core: Allows Protoss to walk out on the map early; introduces active play
Swarm Host: Sends Units to the opponent from long range; Should always do that, because the unit should be safe itself. - introduces active play
Battle Hellion: allows the hellion to be a better combat unit if need be; producing more fast harass units means more active play.
Basically the only unit that is somewhat questionable in terms of more active play is the widow mine, as it could turn out that the best way to play against it would be to sit back and not move until you are ready to clear the map from minefields with a huge army (though for that the widow mine would have to be properly balanced first)
What blizzard needs to do, is balance units in ways so that they actually can do more stuff, even if the opponent turtles, while diminishing their all-in potential. In WoL, mostly just the 2nd one has been done.
It's not a question of design, if the reaper is overpowered. It's a question of "how close is the battle between reapers and the defender". sure balance is good, but if everything is already balanced in the beta or even before it, why not just release the game? Considering that you said that you stopped listening 10 minutes in means that youdidnt hear anything else that he had to say regarding the issue. Yeah, listened to the rest now. All he talks is stuff that can and should be achieved via balance. Thors are too bad anti air vs anthing but mutalisks? Buff it against other things. AoE is too good? Nerf it. Marines are too good in big balls now? Nerf the big balls. There are a lot of simple parameters that are responsible for that (supply, range, dps, upgrades, production) There is literarily nothing that he mentioned, that could not be dealt with by balancing. almost everything you said goes against each other though. Only way to nerf big balls of marines is to have good aoe, but you also said nerf aoe. Thors are made to counter light air units, viking is supposed to counter everything else as the viking is basically a goliath that isnt ground based and doesnt have an aoe aa-attack.Maybe remove the viking and the thor to replace them with a bw goliath? marines do a ton of damage but only when together, if you make them spread then they are in small groups (1-3 if you are good at splitting). A single zealot or archon can clean up 3 marines easily right? just throwing around some random ideas. Why is the only way to nerf marines good AoE? (apart from me not thinking that there is anything wrong with the relationship between AoE and Marines) Make marines bigger and give them less range and less dps and suddenly big marine balls suck hardcore, because instead of 50marines shooting at once, only 30will shoot and 20 will try to hump their big fat frontman. Of course really balancing everything out with the the parameter changes I wrote is hard as it will create other problems. But autospread will give you incredible problems as well.
Auto spreading would be bad. What Filter was mentioning was the mechanic that auto-clumps your units when you do any type of move command. That is a bad mechanic that should be removed as its bad for all races.
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On September 21 2012 00:07 Jermstuddog wrote:
1) The Marine.
I have hated this unit since day 1, and I have offered a simple solution to it's broken numbers for at least a year now. -5hp. That's it. Filter brings up the mechanic of unit spread during movement and I think this moreso adds to the power of the marine rather than takes away from it. Marines having the highest DPS per cost in the game isn't as much of an issue as their extreme cost-effectiveness is. The cost-effectiveness comes from their tankiness, not their damage output.
Bio was non-existant in BW TvP not because Tanks and Vultures were awesome, but because Marines simply died too damn fast. They did great damage, but 1 small mistake and the whole game was over. This is why mech was the standard in that MU and the late-game standard for every MU.
Marines doing great damage is fine. Marines having 55 hp, being able to tank Zealots, Banelings, Archons, and Siege Tanks is not. Marines need to be squishier for the health of the game and the Terran race specifically, they are currently too good in WoL and need to be addressed in a direct manner. IMO, this unit is responsible for 90% of the balance problems in SC2 right now because it is too powerful and artificially inflates the power of the other races units simply because they need ways to deal with the Marine.
I just wanted to say that I cant agree more about the marine. As far as I know, the Zerglings stayed the same number wise as in BW (Except for Adrenal glands I guess is a nerf) and the same can be said about the zealot (Except for charge is also a nerf).
Then comes the marine.
Free +5 HP.
Upgradable +10 HP.
Dont need to upgrade range anymore, they come with it.
I mean... at this point, why make an upgrade for an already shitty unit like the Hydralisk so it gets +1 range when the marines come with it? Makes no sense, either give the Hydras their free range like the marines or have the marines have to upgrade their range to have 5.
And for the free 5 HP buff, it makes EVERYTHING less good against the marine. They never needed it, it was a free buff probably because it was the Terran expasion or because Browder just felt like marines are cool or something...
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On September 21 2012 00:52 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 00:44 LgNKami wrote:On September 21 2012 00:20 Big J wrote:On September 20 2012 23:59 LgNKami wrote:On September 20 2012 23:53 Big J wrote:
I did only watch up to 10mins, but I absolutly didn't want to watch any further, as I just completly disagree. Awesome gameplay is created by units that are balanced in ways so that they are used actively all the time.
Just using his examples:
Reaper: 5rax reaper was completly overpowered, but it was awesome to play with, awesome tense to watch and even playing against it, was in a way awesome, because it felt soooo good when you could beat it, while it was sooooo tense all the time.
What they did with the reaper was nerf it into an underpowered state. What they should have done, is BALANCE IT in a way that reapers would still get used! Find that sweetspot that creates tense gameplay, where most of the time a player will get an advantage of it, but not wins or loses straight up.
Tempest: it's a unit that shoots the opponent. Always (not anymore with 15range, but I'd hope it gets a little bit more again throughout the beta). If properly BALANCED. How does that not create tense moments? What the game needs is more units that can attack even if you don't allin.
The HotS units are some of the best ideas because if we look at them:
Oracle: fast harass unit; support unit for hit squads against fungal - introduces more active play
Tempest: long ranged unit; when properly used, it should shoot the opponent and force a reaction that is not "turtle harder) - introduces active play
MS Core: Allows Protoss to walk out on the map early; introduces active play
Swarm Host: Sends Units to the opponent from long range; Should always do that, because the unit should be safe itself. - introduces active play
Battle Hellion: allows the hellion to be a better combat unit if need be; producing more fast harass units means more active play.
Basically the only unit that is somewhat questionable in terms of more active play is the widow mine, as it could turn out that the best way to play against it would be to sit back and not move until you are ready to clear the map from minefields with a huge army (though for that the widow mine would have to be properly balanced first)
What blizzard needs to do, is balance units in ways so that they actually can do more stuff, even if the opponent turtles, while diminishing their all-in potential. In WoL, mostly just the 2nd one has been done.
It's not a question of design, if the reaper is overpowered. It's a question of "how close is the battle between reapers and the defender". sure balance is good, but if everything is already balanced in the beta or even before it, why not just release the game? Considering that you said that you stopped listening 10 minutes in means that youdidnt hear anything else that he had to say regarding the issue. Yeah, listened to the rest now. All he talks is stuff that can and should be achieved via balance. Thors are too bad anti air vs anthing but mutalisks? Buff it against other things. AoE is too good? Nerf it. Marines are too good in big balls now? Nerf the big balls. There are a lot of simple parameters that are responsible for that (supply, range, dps, upgrades, production) There is literarily nothing that he mentioned, that could not be dealt with by balancing. almost everything you said goes against each other though. Only way to nerf big balls of marines is to have good aoe, but you also said nerf aoe. Thors are made to counter light air units, viking is supposed to counter everything else as the viking is basically a goliath that isnt ground based and doesnt have an aoe aa-attack.Maybe remove the viking and the thor to replace them with a bw goliath? marines do a ton of damage but only when together, if you make them spread then they are in small groups (1-3 if you are good at splitting). A single zealot or archon can clean up 3 marines easily right? just throwing around some random ideas. Why is the only way to nerf marines good AoE? (apart from me not thinking that there is anything wrong with the relationship between AoE and Marines) Make marines bigger and give them less range and less dps and suddenly big marine balls suck hardcore, because instead of 50marines shooting at once, only 30will shoot and 20 will try to hump their big fat frontman. Of course really balancing everything out with the the parameter changes I wrote is hard as it will create other problems. But autospread will give you incredible problems as well.
They tried with a unit called the Warhound. It was o big for its supply so army compositions with it seemed so big and scary even if it something like that it's not a big advantage. In chokepoints they sucked so hard because just 10% of them actually fight in these situations.
Well, people bitched so much about that, then Blizz removed it, Because people just coudn't blind counter it and were getting angrier.
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On September 21 2012 01:00 baba1 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 00:07 Jermstuddog wrote:
1) The Marine.
I have hated this unit since day 1, and I have offered a simple solution to it's broken numbers for at least a year now. -5hp. That's it. Filter brings up the mechanic of unit spread during movement and I think this moreso adds to the power of the marine rather than takes away from it. Marines having the highest DPS per cost in the game isn't as much of an issue as their extreme cost-effectiveness is. The cost-effectiveness comes from their tankiness, not their damage output.
Bio was non-existant in BW TvP not because Tanks and Vultures were awesome, but because Marines simply died too damn fast. They did great damage, but 1 small mistake and the whole game was over. This is why mech was the standard in that MU and the late-game standard for every MU.
Marines doing great damage is fine. Marines having 55 hp, being able to tank Zealots, Banelings, Archons, and Siege Tanks is not. Marines need to be squishier for the health of the game and the Terran race specifically, they are currently too good in WoL and need to be addressed in a direct manner. IMO, this unit is responsible for 90% of the balance problems in SC2 right now because it is too powerful and artificially inflates the power of the other races units simply because they need ways to deal with the Marine.
I just wanted to say that I cant agree more about the marine. As far as I know, the Zerglings stayed the same number wise as in BW (Except for Adrenal glands I guess is a nerf) and the same can be said about the zealot (Except for charge is also a nerf). Then comes the marine. Free +5 HP. Upgradable +10 HP. Dont need to upgrade range anymore, they come with it. I mean... at this point, why make an upgrade for an already shitty unit like the Hydralisk so it gets +1 range when the marines come with it? Makes no sense, either give the Hydras their free range like the marines or have the marines have to upgrade their range to have 5. And for the free 5 HP buff, it makes EVERYTHING less good against the marine. They never needed it, it was a free buff probably because it was the Terran expasion or because Browder just felt like marines are cool or something...
does terran need sensor tower? why isnt ghost emp an upgrade? why does terran get PFs?
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It always upsets me when people advocate replacing the Medivac w/ the Medic. 
The Medivac is the best addition in SC2.
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On September 21 2012 01:09 Herect wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 00:52 Big J wrote:On September 21 2012 00:44 LgNKami wrote:On September 21 2012 00:20 Big J wrote:On September 20 2012 23:59 LgNKami wrote:On September 20 2012 23:53 Big J wrote:
I did only watch up to 10mins, but I absolutly didn't want to watch any further, as I just completly disagree. Awesome gameplay is created by units that are balanced in ways so that they are used actively all the time.
Just using his examples:
Reaper: 5rax reaper was completly overpowered, but it was awesome to play with, awesome tense to watch and even playing against it, was in a way awesome, because it felt soooo good when you could beat it, while it was sooooo tense all the time.
What they did with the reaper was nerf it into an underpowered state. What they should have done, is BALANCE IT in a way that reapers would still get used! Find that sweetspot that creates tense gameplay, where most of the time a player will get an advantage of it, but not wins or loses straight up.
Tempest: it's a unit that shoots the opponent. Always (not anymore with 15range, but I'd hope it gets a little bit more again throughout the beta). If properly BALANCED. How does that not create tense moments? What the game needs is more units that can attack even if you don't allin.
The HotS units are some of the best ideas because if we look at them:
Oracle: fast harass unit; support unit for hit squads against fungal - introduces more active play
Tempest: long ranged unit; when properly used, it should shoot the opponent and force a reaction that is not "turtle harder) - introduces active play
MS Core: Allows Protoss to walk out on the map early; introduces active play
Swarm Host: Sends Units to the opponent from long range; Should always do that, because the unit should be safe itself. - introduces active play
Battle Hellion: allows the hellion to be a better combat unit if need be; producing more fast harass units means more active play.
Basically the only unit that is somewhat questionable in terms of more active play is the widow mine, as it could turn out that the best way to play against it would be to sit back and not move until you are ready to clear the map from minefields with a huge army (though for that the widow mine would have to be properly balanced first)
What blizzard needs to do, is balance units in ways so that they actually can do more stuff, even if the opponent turtles, while diminishing their all-in potential. In WoL, mostly just the 2nd one has been done.
It's not a question of design, if the reaper is overpowered. It's a question of "how close is the battle between reapers and the defender". sure balance is good, but if everything is already balanced in the beta or even before it, why not just release the game? Considering that you said that you stopped listening 10 minutes in means that youdidnt hear anything else that he had to say regarding the issue. Yeah, listened to the rest now. All he talks is stuff that can and should be achieved via balance. Thors are too bad anti air vs anthing but mutalisks? Buff it against other things. AoE is too good? Nerf it. Marines are too good in big balls now? Nerf the big balls. There are a lot of simple parameters that are responsible for that (supply, range, dps, upgrades, production) There is literarily nothing that he mentioned, that could not be dealt with by balancing. almost everything you said goes against each other though. Only way to nerf big balls of marines is to have good aoe, but you also said nerf aoe. Thors are made to counter light air units, viking is supposed to counter everything else as the viking is basically a goliath that isnt ground based and doesnt have an aoe aa-attack.Maybe remove the viking and the thor to replace them with a bw goliath? marines do a ton of damage but only when together, if you make them spread then they are in small groups (1-3 if you are good at splitting). A single zealot or archon can clean up 3 marines easily right? just throwing around some random ideas. Why is the only way to nerf marines good AoE? (apart from me not thinking that there is anything wrong with the relationship between AoE and Marines) Make marines bigger and give them less range and less dps and suddenly big marine balls suck hardcore, because instead of 50marines shooting at once, only 30will shoot and 20 will try to hump their big fat frontman. Of course really balancing everything out with the the parameter changes I wrote is hard as it will create other problems. But autospread will give you incredible problems as well. They tried with a unit called the Warhound. It was o big for its supply so army compositions with it seemed so big and scary even if it something like that it's not a big advantage. In chokepoints they sucked so hard because just 10% of them actually fight in these situations. Well, people bitched so much about that, then Blizz removed it, Because people just coudn't blind counter it and were getting angrier.
The thing about it is though, Blizzard tried something to see how it would work in the game. It didnt work, and the rest is history. Why can't they try that with BW units instead of saying that it wouldn't be interesting enough to bring them back while coming up with "new units" that have the same concepts as the old units?
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On September 21 2012 01:12 SarcasmMonster wrote:It always upsets me when people advocate replacing the Medivac w/ the Medic. The Medivac is the best addition in SC2.
I agree with this actually. I like the Medivac much more than dropship + medic.
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On September 21 2012 01:00 baba1 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 00:07 Jermstuddog wrote:
1) The Marine.
I have hated this unit since day 1, and I have offered a simple solution to it's broken numbers for at least a year now. -5hp. That's it. Filter brings up the mechanic of unit spread during movement and I think this moreso adds to the power of the marine rather than takes away from it. Marines having the highest DPS per cost in the game isn't as much of an issue as their extreme cost-effectiveness is. The cost-effectiveness comes from their tankiness, not their damage output.
Bio was non-existant in BW TvP not because Tanks and Vultures were awesome, but because Marines simply died too damn fast. They did great damage, but 1 small mistake and the whole game was over. This is why mech was the standard in that MU and the late-game standard for every MU.
Marines doing great damage is fine. Marines having 55 hp, being able to tank Zealots, Banelings, Archons, and Siege Tanks is not. Marines need to be squishier for the health of the game and the Terran race specifically, they are currently too good in WoL and need to be addressed in a direct manner. IMO, this unit is responsible for 90% of the balance problems in SC2 right now because it is too powerful and artificially inflates the power of the other races units simply because they need ways to deal with the Marine.
I just wanted to say that I cant agree more about the marine. As far as I know, the Zerglings stayed the same number wise as in BW (Except for Adrenal glands I guess is a nerf) and the same can be said about the zealot (Except for charge is also a nerf). Then comes the marine. Free +5 HP. Upgradable +10 HP. Dont need to upgrade range anymore, they come with it. I mean... at this point, why make an upgrade for an already shitty unit like the Hydralisk so it gets +1 range when the marines come with it? Makes no sense, either give the Hydras their free range like the marines or have the marines have to upgrade their range to have 5. And for the free 5 HP buff, it makes EVERYTHING less good against the marine. They never needed it, it was a free buff probably because it was the Terran expasion or because Browder just felt like marines are cool or something...
The reason why marines got the buff is because healing them came later in the game. Because of that, they were ok at the beginning but are really powerful at the point medivacs come out. They also got a plus one to dmg, btw. Zealots got a 1 armor but shields were reduced by 10 compared to BW.
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I do agree with the base concept, the problem is that the "unavaiable strategies" are more for the terran race, so the point should be not to do terran easier but to do protoss and zerg harder. Btw blizzard has made it's choise, they choosed to watch for casual gamers and the easy money, atm I don't know if I will buy Hots and probably there is a lot of people just like me it's actually thinking about that decision.
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On September 21 2012 01:12 SarcasmMonster wrote:It always upsets me when people advocate replacing the Medivac w/ the Medic. The Medivac is the best addition in SC2.
It's a cool concept, but breaks other shit so hard. Now you've got bio with flying medics who can transport your bio everywhere on the map regardless of terrain features. You have less attacking options in the beginning because you don't have medics healing you. It's not as good as you think it is, it has good things going for it, but when you analyze it further, it creates a lot of problems. Medics took up space in your ground army, making you less prone to aoe but they could also block melee units like zerglings. With sc2's engine, marines can clump up even better, making their dps even more insane, but even more vulnerable to aoe, which means aoe got nerfed even harder and thus people who could split well, their marines got even more stronger, resulting in other terran stuff not being as strong and other races needing other buffs and so on and so on....
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On September 21 2012 01:20 wcr.4fun wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 01:12 SarcasmMonster wrote:It always upsets me when people advocate replacing the Medivac w/ the Medic. The Medivac is the best addition in SC2. It's a cool concept, but breaks other shit so hard. Now you've got bio with flying medics who can transport your bio everywhere on the map regardless of terrain features. You have less attacking options in the beginning because you don't have medics healing you. It's not as good as you think it is, it has good things going for it, but when you analyze it further, it creates a lot of problems.
I find bio play in SC2 much better than bio play in BW. I feel like SC2 is more encouraging of multitasking w/ bio (<3 MMA)
You have less attacking options in the beginning because you don't have medics healing you.
 already has a very strong early game, I don't see that as necessarily a problem.
Anyways just finished the vid. Agree with your conclusion.
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I disagree with your comment on bringing back broodwar units. We need to embrace the new and make sc2 a totally different game. But I do agree that blizzard is simplifying the game way too much.
Also due to the pathing and way the ai works when moving. ( Auto clumps) Lurkers and reavers would be a bit too powerful. If 1 race gets a burst splash unit that 1 shots things, then in that case i'd say terran needs one as well. Either increase tank damage or decreased HSM energy needs.
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On September 21 2012 01:09 Herect wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 00:52 Big J wrote:On September 21 2012 00:44 LgNKami wrote:On September 21 2012 00:20 Big J wrote:On September 20 2012 23:59 LgNKami wrote:On September 20 2012 23:53 Big J wrote:
I did only watch up to 10mins, but I absolutly didn't want to watch any further, as I just completly disagree. Awesome gameplay is created by units that are balanced in ways so that they are used actively all the time.
Just using his examples:
Reaper: 5rax reaper was completly overpowered, but it was awesome to play with, awesome tense to watch and even playing against it, was in a way awesome, because it felt soooo good when you could beat it, while it was sooooo tense all the time.
What they did with the reaper was nerf it into an underpowered state. What they should have done, is BALANCE IT in a way that reapers would still get used! Find that sweetspot that creates tense gameplay, where most of the time a player will get an advantage of it, but not wins or loses straight up.
Tempest: it's a unit that shoots the opponent. Always (not anymore with 15range, but I'd hope it gets a little bit more again throughout the beta). If properly BALANCED. How does that not create tense moments? What the game needs is more units that can attack even if you don't allin.
The HotS units are some of the best ideas because if we look at them:
Oracle: fast harass unit; support unit for hit squads against fungal - introduces more active play
Tempest: long ranged unit; when properly used, it should shoot the opponent and force a reaction that is not "turtle harder) - introduces active play
MS Core: Allows Protoss to walk out on the map early; introduces active play
Swarm Host: Sends Units to the opponent from long range; Should always do that, because the unit should be safe itself. - introduces active play
Battle Hellion: allows the hellion to be a better combat unit if need be; producing more fast harass units means more active play.
Basically the only unit that is somewhat questionable in terms of more active play is the widow mine, as it could turn out that the best way to play against it would be to sit back and not move until you are ready to clear the map from minefields with a huge army (though for that the widow mine would have to be properly balanced first)
What blizzard needs to do, is balance units in ways so that they actually can do more stuff, even if the opponent turtles, while diminishing their all-in potential. In WoL, mostly just the 2nd one has been done.
It's not a question of design, if the reaper is overpowered. It's a question of "how close is the battle between reapers and the defender". sure balance is good, but if everything is already balanced in the beta or even before it, why not just release the game? Considering that you said that you stopped listening 10 minutes in means that youdidnt hear anything else that he had to say regarding the issue. Yeah, listened to the rest now. All he talks is stuff that can and should be achieved via balance. Thors are too bad anti air vs anthing but mutalisks? Buff it against other things. AoE is too good? Nerf it. Marines are too good in big balls now? Nerf the big balls. There are a lot of simple parameters that are responsible for that (supply, range, dps, upgrades, production) There is literarily nothing that he mentioned, that could not be dealt with by balancing. almost everything you said goes against each other though. Only way to nerf big balls of marines is to have good aoe, but you also said nerf aoe. Thors are made to counter light air units, viking is supposed to counter everything else as the viking is basically a goliath that isnt ground based and doesnt have an aoe aa-attack.Maybe remove the viking and the thor to replace them with a bw goliath? marines do a ton of damage but only when together, if you make them spread then they are in small groups (1-3 if you are good at splitting). A single zealot or archon can clean up 3 marines easily right? just throwing around some random ideas. Why is the only way to nerf marines good AoE? (apart from me not thinking that there is anything wrong with the relationship between AoE and Marines) Make marines bigger and give them less range and less dps and suddenly big marine balls suck hardcore, because instead of 50marines shooting at once, only 30will shoot and 20 will try to hump their big fat frontman. Of course really balancing everything out with the the parameter changes I wrote is hard as it will create other problems. But autospread will give you incredible problems as well. They tried with a unit called the Warhound. It was o big for its supply so army compositions with it seemed so big and scary even if it something like that it's not a big advantage. In chokepoints they sucked so hard because just 10% of them actually fight in these situations. Well, people bitched so much about that, then Blizz removed it, Because people just coudn't blind counter it and were getting angrier.
Warhound had 7range and did not suck in chokepoints.
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On September 21 2012 01:20 BuffaloSoldier wrote:
I do agree with the base concept, the problem is that the "unavaiable strategies" are more for the terran race, so the point should be not to do terran easier but to do protoss and zerg harder. Btw blizzard has made it's choise, they choosed to watch for casual gamers and the easy money, atm I don't know if I will buy Hots and probably there is a lot of people just like me it's actually thinking about that decision.
Thinking the same thing. It is seriously hinged on new units and modifications to old ones. Personally, i don't think they even have to bring back old bw units. All they have to do is make fun units with unique concepts. I'm hoping they fix it coz it would be worth the money for sure. If not, then i might jsut take up Dustin Browder's suggestion and pick up bw.
On a side note, they really should not make units based on bw units but aren't as exciting. Gets people comparing them and asking why they don't just bring back the old units.
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On September 21 2012 01:25 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 01:20 wcr.4fun wrote:On September 21 2012 01:12 SarcasmMonster wrote:It always upsets me when people advocate replacing the Medivac w/ the Medic. The Medivac is the best addition in SC2. It's a cool concept, but breaks other shit so hard. Now you've got bio with flying medics who can transport your bio everywhere on the map regardless of terrain features. You have less attacking options in the beginning because you don't have medics healing you. It's not as good as you think it is, it has good things going for it, but when you analyze it further, it creates a lot of problems. I find bio play in SC2 much better than bio play in BW. I feel like SC2 is more encouraging of multitasking w/ bio (<3 MMA) Show nested quote +You have less attacking options in the beginning because you don't have medics healing you. already has a very strong early game, I don't see that as necessarily a problem. Anyways just finished the vid. Agree with your conclusion.
They buffed marines (+1 range, +5 free health, + shield etc) to make aggression possible. Combined with medivacs, marines get insane in the mid/end game.
I also saw another poster explaining it pretty well: "Bio is still just so mobile, thanks to medivacs (which I very much dislike from a design standpoint). Bio can see up cliffs, move up cliffs, heal, and deal massive damage, all thanks to medivacs. Also, since the dropship is also a medic, it frees up one or two more slots in the cargo hold for more units. Obviously Terran drops are absolutely devastating in SC2 compared to BW.
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While I might not agree with his points I definitely agree with the "Fuck Balance" point and lets figure out better gameplay. Starcraft 2 might not last for LoV, Especially if HOTS is more of the same style. I know the numbers are going to dwindle over time but damn. Ladder is just Zerg and Protoss in the high master area on NA. I literally get 10% or less Terrans to play against.
I don't even know how many times I have posted about bringing the Reaver back just to test it on beta I can tell you it's more than 4, It's my favorite BW unit and easily a great replacement for the ever boring Colossus.
I am sure this video like many other will be looked over and nothing changed because Blizzard is pretty stubborn with the way they want to make their game. In the end it's up to them to make a game that we will continue to play like BW for 10+ years.
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On September 21 2012 01:36 SigmaoctanusIV wrote:
While I might not agree with his points I definitely agree with the "Fuck Balance" point and lets figure out better gameplay. Starcraft 2 might not last for LoV, Especially if HOTS is more of the same style. I know the numbers are going to dwindle over time but damn. Ladder is just Zerg and Protoss in the high master area on NA. I literally get 10% or less Terrans to play against.
I don't even know how many times I have posted about bringing the Reaver back just to test it on beta I can tell you it's more than 4, It's my favorite BW unit and easily a great replacement for the ever boring Colossus.
I am sure this video like many other will be looked over and nothing changed because Blizzard is pretty stubborn with the way they want to make their game. In the end it's up to them to make a game that we will continue to play like BW for 10+ years.
Would really be a shame if they killed bw and have this die out soon after.
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United Kingdom14464 Posts
wtff. I thought this was kinda terrible.
The point about people whining balance and not talking about gameplay is good, but apart from that... well I'm at a loss.
What else in there was meaningful? There was some hope for BW units back in before (which we've heard a million times before). There was some complaining about marines (!). I'm honestly confused by why this has received a positive response. Some one help me please.
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On September 21 2012 01:42 MCDayC wrote:
wtff. I thought this was kinda terrible.
The point about people whining balance and not talking about gameplay is good, but apart from that... well I'm at a loss.
What else in there was meaningful? There was some hope for BW units back in before (which we've heard a million times before). There was some complaining about marines (!). I'm honestly confused by why this has received a positive response. Some one help me please.
its true blizzard will do fuck-all about it. but these are players who are just expressing their concerns, who want to play the best (and most entertaining) game possible. they do not agree blizzard is doing a good job at that.
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EPT
