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On September 20 2012 11:20 bistan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 11:18 playa wrote:On September 20 2012 11:13 bistan wrote:On September 20 2012 11:09 playa wrote:On September 20 2012 10:47 bistan wrote:On September 20 2012 08:04 playa wrote:
In BW, on ladders, I used to use the shift click on geyser trick to scout my opponent's base. It was absolutely as unintuitive as anything could be. Most people, being everyone that didn't know about this trick, would simply assume I was hacking. If you want to blame someone for not knowing tricks like this, all I can do is shake my head. So much in life is arbitrary. For example, this trick I just mentioned was eventually not allowed. You would get fined points on ladders and you would auto lose a game if you tried in a tournament. Every race could use the trick, though. In SC 2, it's built into the game to be able to pass through units to scout a base. Who complains now, though?
You guys are really biased. You're hardcore people that have prob been playing from day 1 and don't miss anything that takes place on tl.net When newer players come around, think in 5 years, they're going to have no clue wtf this carrier micro is and etc. They won't be able to just watch a game and realize someone is doing some weird trick that they need to search on tl.net to learn. And, if they do become pretty good, they're probably kinda logical. It probably won't occur to them to try some random combination of random to micro properly. They will be practicing micro in a manner that makes sense. Not in some weird way/glitch way.
Nony was one of the best players and def mechanics were a big part of that. I wouldn't blame him if he wanted the highest degree of mechanics needed for everything. If I were to start playing in 5 years though, I would simply hope that I could find Nony's video on carrier micro, without needing some act of serendipity to end up practicing how I'm supposed to. Dude Im sorry that ended like that lol The main point honestly isnt about the difficulty of the micro, its the utility of it. I dont care if they figure out some easy way of doing what Tyler does (though i think the sytem is fine and not really difficult) it has more to do with the effect it creates. Put simply, it would make carriers useful again, vs how they are now. In old broodwar games micro like this allowed for strats like sair reaver, where a pack of hydras would get wasted by cariers and their micro, or do something like make it so you can kite marines. Carriers slowly blimping into range makes them pretty useles. Of course you'll be able to find the video. I play the drums; how fucking boring would the drums be if all the little techniques you could do were just completely intuitive and you could just sit at the kit and practice single rolls for a few years and be the best drummer in the world? If the mechanics for throwing a perfect fastball were completely intuitive, what would that be like? How does one learn SC2? How does one learn anything? How obvious is it to a new chess player that the knight moves in an L shape, and pawns can't move backwards? So much in life is arbitrary right? Who the fuck would care if the pawns could move forwards and backwards? Or if a baseball mound was only 20 feet from home plate? An incredibly complex subject like say, math has so many thousands of pages written about all the things you need to learn. No one even bats an eye; you just understand that you need to read up to learn math. Why is it so bad that a video game requires you to learn it a little bit? We're talking about Starcraft here. It needs to be the most competitive game it can possibly be. I feel like it can't be that if you just make everything completely obvious in the game. If it's important enough micro that in order to improve you need to learn it, it'll be in a sticky, maybe even in a fucking book someday. The good thing is that the level of skill to do everything else AND micro the carriers would put you at a level where you should be reading micro guides or learning from pro's coaches ANYWAYS. I didn't even play Brood War, but I think I can safely say that BW was so close to becoming an actual game. One that doesn't change constantly. That seems like a big thing to me; with most video games the rules just change all the time patch after patch. BW was settling down and becoming a GAME; like chess, or go, or football. No more balance patches etc etc. I don't know what I think about that but I'm curious as to what you guys think. I just feel that with like SC2 there's just so many updates, still 2 expansions worth of units, people complaining non stop forever and ever. I think for the love of e-sports we need some game that has the content to be good enough to just BE THE GAME IT IS and no more is needed. Starcraft 2 sure as hell doesn't look like that game to me. I'm really not the person to talk about when it comes to no putting in the work to get better. I started 5 years after others and qualified for WCG US, in two of my first three years of playing the game. I still didn't know any of these tricks. The only thing I was aware of was shift click to scout. You can't have some units where micro is intuitive, such as splitting marines, yet have some units that operate in some bizarre fashion that only a select few people are privy to. If you would rather information be "hidden" on how to micro units, rather than easily accessible to all, then you really need to focus more on other ways to get an adv because that's sad. When some know and some don't, to no fault of their own, it's simply not an even playing field. There's really nothing to debate. So when someone doesn't know what a pin or a double attack is in chess, that makes chess an uneven playing field? Tactics like those are little tricks, after all. If you know so much about chess, maybe stick to talking about that. I'm sure starcraft would be better if there was no attack icon and it had a random hotkey that players had to discover. That would really help to separate the talented from the noobs. Is there really that little depth in this game that you have to grasp for hidden micro techniques? Maybe they can change it to that no races are shown when the game starts. Everything must be discovered the hard way or else it's just too ez. You must be some crazy gosu that is just desperate for a challenge. I wish I could be like that. *shrug* whatever you say, man
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On September 20 2012 11:20 bistan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 11:18 playa wrote:On September 20 2012 11:13 bistan wrote:On September 20 2012 11:09 playa wrote:On September 20 2012 10:47 bistan wrote:On September 20 2012 08:04 playa wrote:
In BW, on ladders, I used to use the shift click on geyser trick to scout my opponent's base. It was absolutely as unintuitive as anything could be. Most people, being everyone that didn't know about this trick, would simply assume I was hacking. If you want to blame someone for not knowing tricks like this, all I can do is shake my head. So much in life is arbitrary. For example, this trick I just mentioned was eventually not allowed. You would get fined points on ladders and you would auto lose a game if you tried in a tournament. Every race could use the trick, though. In SC 2, it's built into the game to be able to pass through units to scout a base. Who complains now, though?
You guys are really biased. You're hardcore people that have prob been playing from day 1 and don't miss anything that takes place on tl.net When newer players come around, think in 5 years, they're going to have no clue wtf this carrier micro is and etc. They won't be able to just watch a game and realize someone is doing some weird trick that they need to search on tl.net to learn. And, if they do become pretty good, they're probably kinda logical. It probably won't occur to them to try some random combination of random to micro properly. They will be practicing micro in a manner that makes sense. Not in some weird way/glitch way.
Nony was one of the best players and def mechanics were a big part of that. I wouldn't blame him if he wanted the highest degree of mechanics needed for everything. If I were to start playing in 5 years though, I would simply hope that I could find Nony's video on carrier micro, without needing some act of serendipity to end up practicing how I'm supposed to. Of course you'll be able to find the video. I play the drums; how fucking boring would the drums be if all the little techniques you could do were just completely intuitive and you could just sit at the kit and practice single rolls for a few years and be the best drummer in the world? If the mechanics for throwing a perfect fastball were completely intuitive, what would that be like? How does one learn SC2? How does one learn anything? How obvious is it to a new chess player that the knight moves in an L shape, and pawns can't move backwards? So much in life is arbitrary right? Who the fuck would care if the pawns could move forwards and backwards? Or if a baseball mound was only 20 feet from home plate? An incredibly complex subject like say, math has so many thousands of pages written about all the things you need to learn. No one even bats an eye; you just understand that you need to read up to learn math. Why is it so bad that a video game requires you to learn it a little bit? We're talking about Starcraft here. It needs to be the most competitive game it can possibly be. I feel like it can't be that if you just make everything completely obvious in the game. If it's important enough micro that in order to improve you need to learn it, it'll be in a sticky, maybe even in a fucking book someday. The good thing is that the level of skill to do everything else AND micro the carriers would put you at a level where you should be reading micro guides or learning from pro's coaches ANYWAYS. I didn't even play Brood War, but I think I can safely say that BW was so close to becoming an actual game. One that doesn't change constantly. That seems like a big thing to me; with most video games the rules just change all the time patch after patch. BW was settling down and becoming a GAME; like chess, or go, or football. No more balance patches etc etc. I don't know what I think about that but I'm curious as to what you guys think. I just feel that with like SC2 there's just so many updates, still 2 expansions worth of units, people complaining non stop forever and ever. I think for the love of e-sports we need some game that has the content to be good enough to just BE THE GAME IT IS and no more is needed. Starcraft 2 sure as hell doesn't look like that game to me. I'm really not the person to talk about when it comes to no putting in the work to get better. I started 5 years after others and qualified for WCG US, in two of my first three years of playing the game. I still didn't know any of these tricks. The only thing I was aware of was shift click to scout. You can't have some units where micro is intuitive, such as splitting marines, yet have some units that operate in some bizarre fashion that only a select few people are privy to. If you would rather information be "hidden" on how to micro units, rather than easily accessible to all, then you really need to focus more on other ways to get an adv because that's sad. When some know and some don't, to no fault of their own, it's simply not an even playing field. There's really nothing to debate. So when someone doesn't know what a pin or a double attack is in chess, that makes chess an uneven playing field? Tactics like those are little tricks, after all. If you know so much about chess, maybe stick to talking about that. I'm sure starcraft would be better if there was no attack icon and it had a random hotkey that players had to discover. That would really help to separate the talented from the noobs. Is there really that little depth in this game that you have to grasp for hidden micro techniques? Maybe they can change it to that no races are shown when the game starts. Everything must be discovered the hard way or else it's just too ez. You must be some crazy gosu that is just desperate for a challenge. I wish I could be like that. *shrug* whatever you say, man
Dude Im sorry that ended like that lol
The main point honestly isnt about the difficulty of the micro, its the utility of it. I dont care if they figure out some easy way of doing what Tyler does (though i think the sytem is fine and not really difficult) it has more to do with the effect it creates. Put simply, it would make carriers useful again, vs how they are now. In old broodwar games micro like this allowed for strats like sair reaver, where a pack of hydras would get wasted by cariers and their micro, or do something like make it so you can kite marines. Carriers slowly blimping into range makes them pretty useles.
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The changing targets within leash range makes sense. Honestly, should have probably been there the whole time.
Continuous deployment, makes no sense, at all. It completely defies what it means to be a carrier. If the interceptors don't need to be within the carrier to fly across the map, then why bother having the carrier. Just build the interceptors at a rate of 2 for 1 supply or something.
It just becomes an esoteric micro trick that doesn't make sense within the game world, and is only there because it adds extra things to do. Yes, it requires concentration to do, which is a good thing but is completely arbirary. It would be like adding the ability to mine faster if you toggled off auto-harvesting and had to click your harvest on the minerals each time. Or any other thing out of an unlimited pool that would require more micro, but not really make much sense.
Additionally, you can't make the arguement that it's the same thing as the Voidray. It makes perfect logical sense that if a unit amplifies it's damage the longer it fires, then you might want to charge it before heading into battle. Having a Carrier unload all it's fighters so they can fly around the map and never have to load again doesn't. "Why do they have to be loaded at all?" is a question a 5-year old would ask.
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IMO, the absence of this kind of micro is the reason why carrier is not used in mid game.
However, it doesn't take away the fact that carriers after reaching certain amount is extremely powerful in late game PvZ.
It could use some kind of nerf to make it more viable in mid game coupled with this kind of micro imo
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Canada11321 Posts
On September 20 2012 11:09 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 10:47 bistan wrote:On September 20 2012 08:04 playa wrote:
In BW, on ladders, I used to use the shift click on geyser trick to scout my opponent's base. It was absolutely as unintuitive as anything could be. Most people, being everyone that didn't know about this trick, would simply assume I was hacking. If you want to blame someone for not knowing tricks like this, all I can do is shake my head. So much in life is arbitrary. For example, this trick I just mentioned was eventually not allowed. You would get fined points on ladders and you would auto lose a game if you tried in a tournament. Every race could use the trick, though. In SC 2, it's built into the game to be able to pass through units to scout a base. Who complains now, though?
You guys are really biased. You're hardcore people that have prob been playing from day 1 and don't miss anything that takes place on tl.net When newer players come around, think in 5 years, they're going to have no clue wtf this carrier micro is and etc. They won't be able to just watch a game and realize someone is doing some weird trick that they need to search on tl.net to learn. And, if they do become pretty good, they're probably kinda logical. It probably won't occur to them to try some random combination of random to micro properly. They will be practicing micro in a manner that makes sense. Not in some weird way/glitch way.
Nony was one of the best players and def mechanics were a big part of that. I wouldn't blame him if he wanted the highest degree of mechanics needed for everything. If I were to start playing in 5 years though, I would simply hope that I could find Nony's video on carrier micro, without needing some act of serendipity to end up practicing how I'm supposed to. Of course you'll be able to find the video. I play the drums; how fucking boring would the drums be if all the little techniques you could do were just completely intuitive and you could just sit at the kit and practice single rolls for a few years and be the best drummer in the world? If the mechanics for throwing a perfect fastball were completely intuitive, what would that be like? How does one learn SC2? How does one learn anything? How obvious is it to a new chess player that the knight moves in an L shape, and pawns can't move backwards? So much in life is arbitrary right? Who the fuck would care if the pawns could move forwards and backwards? Or if a baseball mound was only 20 feet from home plate? An incredibly complex subject like say, math has so many thousands of pages written about all the things you need to learn. No one even bats an eye; you just understand that you need to read up to learn math. Why is it so bad that a video game requires you to learn it a little bit? We're talking about Starcraft here. It needs to be the most competitive game it can possibly be. I feel like it can't be that if you just make everything completely obvious in the game. If it's important enough micro that in order to improve you need to learn it, it'll be in a sticky, maybe even in a fucking book someday. The good thing is that the level of skill to do everything else AND micro the carriers would put you at a level where you should be reading micro guides or learning from pro's coaches ANYWAYS. I didn't even play Brood War, but I think I can safely say that BW was so close to becoming an actual game. One that doesn't change constantly. That seems like a big thing to me; with most video games the rules just change all the time patch after patch. BW was settling down and becoming a GAME; like chess, or go, or football. No more balance patches etc etc. I don't know what I think about that but I'm curious as to what you guys think. I just feel that with like SC2 there's just so many updates, still 2 expansions worth of units, people complaining non stop forever and ever. I think for the love of e-sports we need some game that has the content to be good enough to just BE THE GAME IT IS and no more is needed. Starcraft 2 sure as hell doesn't look like that game to me. I'm really not the person to talk about when it comes to not putting in the work to get better. I started 5 years after others and qualified for WCG US, in two of my first three years of playing the game. I still didn't know any of these tricks. The only thing I was aware of was shift click to scout. You can't have some units where micro is intuitive, such as splitting marines, yet have some units that operate in some bizarre fashion that only a select few people are privy to. If you would rather information be "hidden" on how to micro units, rather than easily accessible to all, then you really need to focus more on other ways to get an adv because that's sad. When some know and some don't, to no fault of their own, it's simply not an even playing field. There's really nothing to debate.
So does that put your WCG run at 2003 or 2004? I don't know what sort of information was available then. But what I've said before is now is not then. You are letting past experiences of when information was not as easily available, colour everything now. Any micro trick now will be quickly passed on to any player that wants to know. Blizzard can even have tutorials to demonstrate how to do it. I'm sure a Day9 Daily would explain how to do it.
Let's ignore how easily the information can be come by. Let's say the micro trick was known by 100% of Starcraft players. Would you still be opposed? Can you at least agree that it raises the bar for skill as well as increase the spectator experience? (I presume since then, you have observed Korean games including all the micro tricks they used?) Again, knowledge is distributed 100%, do you still think this is a bad thing?
@big1
Real world sense is secondary to gameplay in my mind. I'd never support air units having banking time to turn around for that reason. Gameplay trumps what happens in the real world. Besides it's only if the carriers are constantly microed will the interceptors be constantly deployed. You only the Carriers to reach their destination once and all the interceptors return. Most of the time they are inside the carrier.
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On September 20 2012 11:18 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 11:13 bistan wrote:On September 20 2012 11:09 playa wrote:On September 20 2012 10:47 bistan wrote:On September 20 2012 08:04 playa wrote:
In BW, on ladders, I used to use the shift click on geyser trick to scout my opponent's base. It was absolutely as unintuitive as anything could be. Most people, being everyone that didn't know about this trick, would simply assume I was hacking. If you want to blame someone for not knowing tricks like this, all I can do is shake my head. So much in life is arbitrary. For example, this trick I just mentioned was eventually not allowed. You would get fined points on ladders and you would auto lose a game if you tried in a tournament. Every race could use the trick, though. In SC 2, it's built into the game to be able to pass through units to scout a base. Who complains now, though?
You guys are really biased. You're hardcore people that have prob been playing from day 1 and don't miss anything that takes place on tl.net When newer players come around, think in 5 years, they're going to have no clue wtf this carrier micro is and etc. They won't be able to just watch a game and realize someone is doing some weird trick that they need to search on tl.net to learn. And, if they do become pretty good, they're probably kinda logical. It probably won't occur to them to try some random combination of random to micro properly. They will be practicing micro in a manner that makes sense. Not in some weird way/glitch way.
Nony was one of the best players and def mechanics were a big part of that. I wouldn't blame him if he wanted the highest degree of mechanics needed for everything. If I were to start playing in 5 years though, I would simply hope that I could find Nony's video on carrier micro, without needing some act of serendipity to end up practicing how I'm supposed to. Of course you'll be able to find the video. I play the drums; how fucking boring would the drums be if all the little techniques you could do were just completely intuitive and you could just sit at the kit and practice single rolls for a few years and be the best drummer in the world? If the mechanics for throwing a perfect fastball were completely intuitive, what would that be like? How does one learn SC2? How does one learn anything? How obvious is it to a new chess player that the knight moves in an L shape, and pawns can't move backwards? So much in life is arbitrary right? Who the fuck would care if the pawns could move forwards and backwards? Or if a baseball mound was only 20 feet from home plate? An incredibly complex subject like say, math has so many thousands of pages written about all the things you need to learn. No one even bats an eye; you just understand that you need to read up to learn math. Why is it so bad that a video game requires you to learn it a little bit? We're talking about Starcraft here. It needs to be the most competitive game it can possibly be. I feel like it can't be that if you just make everything completely obvious in the game. If it's important enough micro that in order to improve you need to learn it, it'll be in a sticky, maybe even in a fucking book someday. The good thing is that the level of skill to do everything else AND micro the carriers would put you at a level where you should be reading micro guides or learning from pro's coaches ANYWAYS. I didn't even play Brood War, but I think I can safely say that BW was so close to becoming an actual game. One that doesn't change constantly. That seems like a big thing to me; with most video games the rules just change all the time patch after patch. BW was settling down and becoming a GAME; like chess, or go, or football. No more balance patches etc etc. I don't know what I think about that but I'm curious as to what you guys think. I just feel that with like SC2 there's just so many updates, still 2 expansions worth of units, people complaining non stop forever and ever. I think for the love of e-sports we need some game that has the content to be good enough to just BE THE GAME IT IS and no more is needed. Starcraft 2 sure as hell doesn't look like that game to me. I'm really not the person to talk about when it comes to no putting in the work to get better. I started 5 years after others and qualified for WCG US, in two of my first three years of playing the game. I still didn't know any of these tricks. The only thing I was aware of was shift click to scout. You can't have some units where micro is intuitive, such as splitting marines, yet have some units that operate in some bizarre fashion that only a select few people are privy to. If you would rather information be "hidden" on how to micro units, rather than easily accessible to all, then you really need to focus more on other ways to get an adv because that's sad. When some know and some don't, to no fault of their own, it's simply not an even playing field. There's really nothing to debate. So when someone doesn't know what a pin or a double attack is in chess, that makes chess an uneven playing field? Tactics like those are little tricks, after all. If you know so much about chess, maybe stick to talking about that. I'm sure starcraft would be better if there was no attack icon and it had a random hotkey that players had to discover. That would really help to separate the talented from the noobs. Is there really that little depth in this game that you have to grasp for hidden micro techniques? Maybe they can change it to that no races are shown when the game starts. Everything must be discovered the hard way or else it's just too ez. You must be some crazy gosu that is just desperate for a challenge. I wish I could be like that.
you must be some crazy noob who just doesn't want any micro intricacies because you're too lazy to try and find out things for yourself. you want the one dimensional a-move style and would want to be spoon-fed with every single detail and intricacy the game has to offer.
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On September 20 2012 11:18 playa wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 20 2012 11:13 bistan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 11:09 playa wrote:On September 20 2012 10:47 bistan wrote:On September 20 2012 08:04 playa wrote:
In BW, on ladders, I used to use the shift click on geyser trick to scout my opponent's base. It was absolutely as unintuitive as anything could be. Most people, being everyone that didn't know about this trick, would simply assume I was hacking. If you want to blame someone for not knowing tricks like this, all I can do is shake my head. So much in life is arbitrary. For example, this trick I just mentioned was eventually not allowed. You would get fined points on ladders and you would auto lose a game if you tried in a tournament. Every race could use the trick, though. In SC 2, it's built into the game to be able to pass through units to scout a base. Who complains now, though?
You guys are really biased. You're hardcore people that have prob been playing from day 1 and don't miss anything that takes place on tl.net When newer players come around, think in 5 years, they're going to have no clue wtf this carrier micro is and etc. They won't be able to just watch a game and realize someone is doing some weird trick that they need to search on tl.net to learn. And, if they do become pretty good, they're probably kinda logical. It probably won't occur to them to try some random combination of random to micro properly. They will be practicing micro in a manner that makes sense. Not in some weird way/glitch way.
Nony was one of the best players and def mechanics were a big part of that. I wouldn't blame him if he wanted the highest degree of mechanics needed for everything. If I were to start playing in 5 years though, I would simply hope that I could find Nony's video on carrier micro, without needing some act of serendipity to end up practicing how I'm supposed to. Of course you'll be able to find the video. I play the drums; how fucking boring would the drums be if all the little techniques you could do were just completely intuitive and you could just sit at the kit and practice single rolls for a few years and be the best drummer in the world? If the mechanics for throwing a perfect fastball were completely intuitive, what would that be like? How does one learn SC2? How does one learn anything? How obvious is it to a new chess player that the knight moves in an L shape, and pawns can't move backwards? So much in life is arbitrary right? Who the fuck would care if the pawns could move forwards and backwards? Or if a baseball mound was only 20 feet from home plate? An incredibly complex subject like say, math has so many thousands of pages written about all the things you need to learn. No one even bats an eye; you just understand that you need to read up to learn math. Why is it so bad that a video game requires you to learn it a little bit? We're talking about Starcraft here. It needs to be the most competitive game it can possibly be. I feel like it can't be that if you just make everything completely obvious in the game. If it's important enough micro that in order to improve you need to learn it, it'll be in a sticky, maybe even in a fucking book someday. The good thing is that the level of skill to do everything else AND micro the carriers would put you at a level where you should be reading micro guides or learning from pro's coaches ANYWAYS. I didn't even play Brood War, but I think I can safely say that BW was so close to becoming an actual game. One that doesn't change constantly. That seems like a big thing to me; with most video games the rules just change all the time patch after patch. BW was settling down and becoming a GAME; like chess, or go, or football. No more balance patches etc etc. I don't know what I think about that but I'm curious as to what you guys think. I just feel that with like SC2 there's just so many updates, still 2 expansions worth of units, people complaining non stop forever and ever. I think for the love of e-sports we need some game that has the content to be good enough to just BE THE GAME IT IS and no more is needed. Starcraft 2 sure as hell doesn't look like that game to me. I'm really not the person to talk about when it comes to no putting in the work to get better. I started 5 years after others and qualified for WCG US, in two of my first three years of playing the game. I still didn't know any of these tricks. The only thing I was aware of was shift click to scout. You can't have some units where micro is intuitive, such as splitting marines, yet have some units that operate in some bizarre fashion that only a select few people are privy to. If you would rather information be "hidden" on how to micro units, rather than easily accessible to all, then you really need to focus more on other ways to get an adv because that's sad. When some know and some don't, to no fault of their own, it's simply not an even playing field. There's really nothing to debate. So when someone doesn't know what a pin or a double attack is in chess, that makes chess an uneven playing field? Tactics like those are little tricks, after all. If you know so much about chess, maybe stick to talking about that. I'm sure starcraft would be better if there was no attack icon and it had a random hotkey that players had to discover. That would really help to separate the talented from the noobs. Is there really that little depth in this game that you have to grasp for hidden micro techniques? Maybe they can change it to that no races are shown when the game starts. Everything must be discovered the hard way or else it's just too ez. You must be some crazy gosu that is just desperate for a challenge. I wish I could be like that.
Let's come back to earth a little here. No one is suggesting we remove a-move from the game. In fact, that's just the thing. Every unit will still have the a-move feature, which has the most "basic" of micro abilities (stutter step) since it cannot be avoided - a unit moves and attacks, you can stutter step it (probably an exaggeration, but you get the point). But you can increase the effectiveness of units with other micro-able actions. Different micro abilities for higher tier units to add more to the game itself. Something unique to a unit to spice things up a bit and really show players abilities. Not everyone will have to be good at the same thing like stutter step micro. Some may be good at Carrier micro, like how Jangbi was in BW and some may be terrible at it, like how Bisu wasn't particularly keen on using carriers, but he's still pretty good at making the most of other units. It's fun because it adds individuality to the pro gamers you watch. It also adds a certain style to yourself and differentiates you further from other people. it adds and doesn't merely replace anything.
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Thanks for showing that "newer =/= better" ...
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On September 20 2012 15:22 mage36 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 11:18 playa wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 20 2012 11:13 bistan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 11:09 playa wrote:On September 20 2012 10:47 bistan wrote:On September 20 2012 08:04 playa wrote:
In BW, on ladders, I used to use the shift click on geyser trick to scout my opponent's base. It was absolutely as unintuitive as anything could be. Most people, being everyone that didn't know about this trick, would simply assume I was hacking. If you want to blame someone for not knowing tricks like this, all I can do is shake my head. So much in life is arbitrary. For example, this trick I just mentioned was eventually not allowed. You would get fined points on ladders and you would auto lose a game if you tried in a tournament. Every race could use the trick, though. In SC 2, it's built into the game to be able to pass through units to scout a base. Who complains now, though?
You guys are really biased. You're hardcore people that have prob been playing from day 1 and don't miss anything that takes place on tl.net When newer players come around, think in 5 years, they're going to have no clue wtf this carrier micro is and etc. They won't be able to just watch a game and realize someone is doing some weird trick that they need to search on tl.net to learn. And, if they do become pretty good, they're probably kinda logical. It probably won't occur to them to try some random combination of random to micro properly. They will be practicing micro in a manner that makes sense. Not in some weird way/glitch way.
Nony was one of the best players and def mechanics were a big part of that. I wouldn't blame him if he wanted the highest degree of mechanics needed for everything. If I were to start playing in 5 years though, I would simply hope that I could find Nony's video on carrier micro, without needing some act of serendipity to end up practicing how I'm supposed to. Of course you'll be able to find the video. I play the drums; how fucking boring would the drums be if all the little techniques you could do were just completely intuitive and you could just sit at the kit and practice single rolls for a few years and be the best drummer in the world? If the mechanics for throwing a perfect fastball were completely intuitive, what would that be like? How does one learn SC2? How does one learn anything? How obvious is it to a new chess player that the knight moves in an L shape, and pawns can't move backwards? So much in life is arbitrary right? Who the fuck would care if the pawns could move forwards and backwards? Or if a baseball mound was only 20 feet from home plate? An incredibly complex subject like say, math has so many thousands of pages written about all the things you need to learn. No one even bats an eye; you just understand that you need to read up to learn math. Why is it so bad that a video game requires you to learn it a little bit? We're talking about Starcraft here. It needs to be the most competitive game it can possibly be. I feel like it can't be that if you just make everything completely obvious in the game. If it's important enough micro that in order to improve you need to learn it, it'll be in a sticky, maybe even in a fucking book someday. The good thing is that the level of skill to do everything else AND micro the carriers would put you at a level where you should be reading micro guides or learning from pro's coaches ANYWAYS. I didn't even play Brood War, but I think I can safely say that BW was so close to becoming an actual game. One that doesn't change constantly. That seems like a big thing to me; with most video games the rules just change all the time patch after patch. BW was settling down and becoming a GAME; like chess, or go, or football. No more balance patches etc etc. I don't know what I think about that but I'm curious as to what you guys think. I just feel that with like SC2 there's just so many updates, still 2 expansions worth of units, people complaining non stop forever and ever. I think for the love of e-sports we need some game that has the content to be good enough to just BE THE GAME IT IS and no more is needed. Starcraft 2 sure as hell doesn't look like that game to me. I'm really not the person to talk about when it comes to no putting in the work to get better. I started 5 years after others and qualified for WCG US, in two of my first three years of playing the game. I still didn't know any of these tricks. The only thing I was aware of was shift click to scout. You can't have some units where micro is intuitive, such as splitting marines, yet have some units that operate in some bizarre fashion that only a select few people are privy to. If you would rather information be "hidden" on how to micro units, rather than easily accessible to all, then you really need to focus more on other ways to get an adv because that's sad. When some know and some don't, to no fault of their own, it's simply not an even playing field. There's really nothing to debate. So when someone doesn't know what a pin or a double attack is in chess, that makes chess an uneven playing field? Tactics like those are little tricks, after all. If you know so much about chess, maybe stick to talking about that. I'm sure starcraft would be better if there was no attack icon and it had a random hotkey that players had to discover. That would really help to separate the talented from the noobs. Is there really that little depth in this game that you have to grasp for hidden micro techniques? Maybe they can change it to that no races are shown when the game starts. Everything must be discovered the hard way or else it's just too ez. You must be some crazy gosu that is just desperate for a challenge. I wish I could be like that. Let's come back to earth a little here. No one is suggesting we remove a-move from the game. In fact, that's just the thing. Every unit will still have the a-move feature, which has the most "basic" of micro abilities (stutter step) since it cannot be avoided - a unit moves and attacks, you can stutter step it (probably an exaggeration, but you get the point). But you can increase the effectiveness of units with other micro-able actions. Different micro abilities for higher tier units to add more to the game itself. Something unique to a unit to spice things up a bit and really show players abilities. Not everyone will have to be good at the same thing like stutter step micro. Some may be good at Carrier micro, like how Jangbi was in BW and some may be terrible at it, like how Bisu wasn't particularly keen on using carriers, but he's still pretty good at making the most of other units. It's fun because it adds individuality to the pro gamers you watch. It also adds a certain style to yourself and differentiates you further from other people. it adds and doesn't merely replace anything.
he wants everything not to have "unintuitive" micro features so that no one will have an "unfair" advantage just because he knows some sort of micro feature and his opponent doesn't. maybe he's still sore about his "WCG" run where he lost to real pros who knew these micro features and he didn't.
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On September 20 2012 15:29 AlmondCS wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 15:22 mage36 wrote:On September 20 2012 11:18 playa wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 20 2012 11:13 bistan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 11:09 playa wrote:On September 20 2012 10:47 bistan wrote:On September 20 2012 08:04 playa wrote:
In BW, on ladders, I used to use the shift click on geyser trick to scout my opponent's base. It was absolutely as unintuitive as anything could be. Most people, being everyone that didn't know about this trick, would simply assume I was hacking. If you want to blame someone for not knowing tricks like this, all I can do is shake my head. So much in life is arbitrary. For example, this trick I just mentioned was eventually not allowed. You would get fined points on ladders and you would auto lose a game if you tried in a tournament. Every race could use the trick, though. In SC 2, it's built into the game to be able to pass through units to scout a base. Who complains now, though?
You guys are really biased. You're hardcore people that have prob been playing from day 1 and don't miss anything that takes place on tl.net When newer players come around, think in 5 years, they're going to have no clue wtf this carrier micro is and etc. They won't be able to just watch a game and realize someone is doing some weird trick that they need to search on tl.net to learn. And, if they do become pretty good, they're probably kinda logical. It probably won't occur to them to try some random combination of random to micro properly. They will be practicing micro in a manner that makes sense. Not in some weird way/glitch way.
Nony was one of the best players and def mechanics were a big part of that. I wouldn't blame him if he wanted the highest degree of mechanics needed for everything. If I were to start playing in 5 years though, I would simply hope that I could find Nony's video on carrier micro, without needing some act of serendipity to end up practicing how I'm supposed to. Of course you'll be able to find the video. I play the drums; how fucking boring would the drums be if all the little techniques you could do were just completely intuitive and you could just sit at the kit and practice single rolls for a few years and be the best drummer in the world? If the mechanics for throwing a perfect fastball were completely intuitive, what would that be like? How does one learn SC2? How does one learn anything? How obvious is it to a new chess player that the knight moves in an L shape, and pawns can't move backwards? So much in life is arbitrary right? Who the fuck would care if the pawns could move forwards and backwards? Or if a baseball mound was only 20 feet from home plate? An incredibly complex subject like say, math has so many thousands of pages written about all the things you need to learn. No one even bats an eye; you just understand that you need to read up to learn math. Why is it so bad that a video game requires you to learn it a little bit? We're talking about Starcraft here. It needs to be the most competitive game it can possibly be. I feel like it can't be that if you just make everything completely obvious in the game. If it's important enough micro that in order to improve you need to learn it, it'll be in a sticky, maybe even in a fucking book someday. The good thing is that the level of skill to do everything else AND micro the carriers would put you at a level where you should be reading micro guides or learning from pro's coaches ANYWAYS. I didn't even play Brood War, but I think I can safely say that BW was so close to becoming an actual game. One that doesn't change constantly. That seems like a big thing to me; with most video games the rules just change all the time patch after patch. BW was settling down and becoming a GAME; like chess, or go, or football. No more balance patches etc etc. I don't know what I think about that but I'm curious as to what you guys think. I just feel that with like SC2 there's just so many updates, still 2 expansions worth of units, people complaining non stop forever and ever. I think for the love of e-sports we need some game that has the content to be good enough to just BE THE GAME IT IS and no more is needed. Starcraft 2 sure as hell doesn't look like that game to me. I'm really not the person to talk about when it comes to no putting in the work to get better. I started 5 years after others and qualified for WCG US, in two of my first three years of playing the game. I still didn't know any of these tricks. The only thing I was aware of was shift click to scout. You can't have some units where micro is intuitive, such as splitting marines, yet have some units that operate in some bizarre fashion that only a select few people are privy to. If you would rather information be "hidden" on how to micro units, rather than easily accessible to all, then you really need to focus more on other ways to get an adv because that's sad. When some know and some don't, to no fault of their own, it's simply not an even playing field. There's really nothing to debate. So when someone doesn't know what a pin or a double attack is in chess, that makes chess an uneven playing field? Tactics like those are little tricks, after all. If you know so much about chess, maybe stick to talking about that. I'm sure starcraft would be better if there was no attack icon and it had a random hotkey that players had to discover. That would really help to separate the talented from the noobs. Is there really that little depth in this game that you have to grasp for hidden micro techniques? Maybe they can change it to that no races are shown when the game starts. Everything must be discovered the hard way or else it's just too ez. You must be some crazy gosu that is just desperate for a challenge. I wish I could be like that. Let's come back to earth a little here. No one is suggesting we remove a-move from the game. In fact, that's just the thing. Every unit will still have the a-move feature, which has the most "basic" of micro abilities (stutter step) since it cannot be avoided - a unit moves and attacks, you can stutter step it (probably an exaggeration, but you get the point). But you can increase the effectiveness of units with other micro-able actions. Different micro abilities for higher tier units to add more to the game itself. Something unique to a unit to spice things up a bit and really show players abilities. Not everyone will have to be good at the same thing like stutter step micro. Some may be good at Carrier micro, like how Jangbi was in BW and some may be terrible at it, like how Bisu wasn't particularly keen on using carriers, but he's still pretty good at making the most of other units. It's fun because it adds individuality to the pro gamers you watch. It also adds a certain style to yourself and differentiates you further from other people. it adds and doesn't merely replace anything. he wants everything not to have "unintuitive" micro features so that no one will have an "unfair" advantage just because he knows some sort of micro feature and his opponent doesn't. maybe he's still sore about his "WCG" run where he lost to real pros who knew these micro features and he didn't.
but... but... it's still fair for everyone since everyone can learn it. It's like telling the rest of the NBA players that they can't dunk just because one player can't. He can still train his body, like the rest of the players who have put time and effort to be able to do that.
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On September 20 2012 15:22 mage36 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 11:18 playa wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 20 2012 11:13 bistan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 11:09 playa wrote:On September 20 2012 10:47 bistan wrote:On September 20 2012 08:04 playa wrote:
In BW, on ladders, I used to use the shift click on geyser trick to scout my opponent's base. It was absolutely as unintuitive as anything could be. Most people, being everyone that didn't know about this trick, would simply assume I was hacking. If you want to blame someone for not knowing tricks like this, all I can do is shake my head. So much in life is arbitrary. For example, this trick I just mentioned was eventually not allowed. You would get fined points on ladders and you would auto lose a game if you tried in a tournament. Every race could use the trick, though. In SC 2, it's built into the game to be able to pass through units to scout a base. Who complains now, though?
You guys are really biased. You're hardcore people that have prob been playing from day 1 and don't miss anything that takes place on tl.net When newer players come around, think in 5 years, they're going to have no clue wtf this carrier micro is and etc. They won't be able to just watch a game and realize someone is doing some weird trick that they need to search on tl.net to learn. And, if they do become pretty good, they're probably kinda logical. It probably won't occur to them to try some random combination of random to micro properly. They will be practicing micro in a manner that makes sense. Not in some weird way/glitch way.
Nony was one of the best players and def mechanics were a big part of that. I wouldn't blame him if he wanted the highest degree of mechanics needed for everything. If I were to start playing in 5 years though, I would simply hope that I could find Nony's video on carrier micro, without needing some act of serendipity to end up practicing how I'm supposed to. Of course you'll be able to find the video. I play the drums; how fucking boring would the drums be if all the little techniques you could do were just completely intuitive and you could just sit at the kit and practice single rolls for a few years and be the best drummer in the world? If the mechanics for throwing a perfect fastball were completely intuitive, what would that be like? How does one learn SC2? How does one learn anything? How obvious is it to a new chess player that the knight moves in an L shape, and pawns can't move backwards? So much in life is arbitrary right? Who the fuck would care if the pawns could move forwards and backwards? Or if a baseball mound was only 20 feet from home plate? An incredibly complex subject like say, math has so many thousands of pages written about all the things you need to learn. No one even bats an eye; you just understand that you need to read up to learn math. Why is it so bad that a video game requires you to learn it a little bit? We're talking about Starcraft here. It needs to be the most competitive game it can possibly be. I feel like it can't be that if you just make everything completely obvious in the game. If it's important enough micro that in order to improve you need to learn it, it'll be in a sticky, maybe even in a fucking book someday. The good thing is that the level of skill to do everything else AND micro the carriers would put you at a level where you should be reading micro guides or learning from pro's coaches ANYWAYS. I didn't even play Brood War, but I think I can safely say that BW was so close to becoming an actual game. One that doesn't change constantly. That seems like a big thing to me; with most video games the rules just change all the time patch after patch. BW was settling down and becoming a GAME; like chess, or go, or football. No more balance patches etc etc. I don't know what I think about that but I'm curious as to what you guys think. I just feel that with like SC2 there's just so many updates, still 2 expansions worth of units, people complaining non stop forever and ever. I think for the love of e-sports we need some game that has the content to be good enough to just BE THE GAME IT IS and no more is needed. Starcraft 2 sure as hell doesn't look like that game to me. I'm really not the person to talk about when it comes to no putting in the work to get better. I started 5 years after others and qualified for WCG US, in two of my first three years of playing the game. I still didn't know any of these tricks. The only thing I was aware of was shift click to scout. You can't have some units where micro is intuitive, such as splitting marines, yet have some units that operate in some bizarre fashion that only a select few people are privy to. If you would rather information be "hidden" on how to micro units, rather than easily accessible to all, then you really need to focus more on other ways to get an adv because that's sad. When some know and some don't, to no fault of their own, it's simply not an even playing field. There's really nothing to debate. So when someone doesn't know what a pin or a double attack is in chess, that makes chess an uneven playing field? Tactics like those are little tricks, after all. If you know so much about chess, maybe stick to talking about that. I'm sure starcraft would be better if there was no attack icon and it had a random hotkey that players had to discover. That would really help to separate the talented from the noobs. Is there really that little depth in this game that you have to grasp for hidden micro techniques? Maybe they can change it to that no races are shown when the game starts. Everything must be discovered the hard way or else it's just too ez. You must be some crazy gosu that is just desperate for a challenge. I wish I could be like that. Let's come back to earth a little here. No one is suggesting we remove a-move from the game. In fact, that's just the thing. Every unit will still have the a-move feature, which has the most "basic" of micro abilities (stutter step) since it cannot be avoided - a unit moves and attacks, you can stutter step it (probably an exaggeration, but you get the point). But you can increase the effectiveness of units with other micro-able actions. Different micro abilities for higher tier units to add more to the game itself. Something unique to a unit to spice things up a bit and really show players abilities. Not everyone will have to be good at the same thing like stutter step micro. Some may be good at Carrier micro, like how Jangbi was in BW and some may be terrible at it, like how Bisu wasn't particularly keen on using carriers, but he's still pretty good at making the most of other units. It's fun because it adds individuality to the pro gamers you watch. It also adds a certain style to yourself and differentiates you further from other people. it adds and doesn't merely replace anything.
I like the chess analogy. It's like complaining about castling no?
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On September 20 2012 15:57 ShadeR wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 15:22 mage36 wrote:On September 20 2012 11:18 playa wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 20 2012 11:13 bistan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 11:09 playa wrote:On September 20 2012 10:47 bistan wrote:On September 20 2012 08:04 playa wrote:
In BW, on ladders, I used to use the shift click on geyser trick to scout my opponent's base. It was absolutely as unintuitive as anything could be. Most people, being everyone that didn't know about this trick, would simply assume I was hacking. If you want to blame someone for not knowing tricks like this, all I can do is shake my head. So much in life is arbitrary. For example, this trick I just mentioned was eventually not allowed. You would get fined points on ladders and you would auto lose a game if you tried in a tournament. Every race could use the trick, though. In SC 2, it's built into the game to be able to pass through units to scout a base. Who complains now, though?
You guys are really biased. You're hardcore people that have prob been playing from day 1 and don't miss anything that takes place on tl.net When newer players come around, think in 5 years, they're going to have no clue wtf this carrier micro is and etc. They won't be able to just watch a game and realize someone is doing some weird trick that they need to search on tl.net to learn. And, if they do become pretty good, they're probably kinda logical. It probably won't occur to them to try some random combination of random to micro properly. They will be practicing micro in a manner that makes sense. Not in some weird way/glitch way.
Nony was one of the best players and def mechanics were a big part of that. I wouldn't blame him if he wanted the highest degree of mechanics needed for everything. If I were to start playing in 5 years though, I would simply hope that I could find Nony's video on carrier micro, without needing some act of serendipity to end up practicing how I'm supposed to. Of course you'll be able to find the video. I play the drums; how fucking boring would the drums be if all the little techniques you could do were just completely intuitive and you could just sit at the kit and practice single rolls for a few years and be the best drummer in the world? If the mechanics for throwing a perfect fastball were completely intuitive, what would that be like? How does one learn SC2? How does one learn anything? How obvious is it to a new chess player that the knight moves in an L shape, and pawns can't move backwards? So much in life is arbitrary right? Who the fuck would care if the pawns could move forwards and backwards? Or if a baseball mound was only 20 feet from home plate? An incredibly complex subject like say, math has so many thousands of pages written about all the things you need to learn. No one even bats an eye; you just understand that you need to read up to learn math. Why is it so bad that a video game requires you to learn it a little bit? We're talking about Starcraft here. It needs to be the most competitive game it can possibly be. I feel like it can't be that if you just make everything completely obvious in the game. If it's important enough micro that in order to improve you need to learn it, it'll be in a sticky, maybe even in a fucking book someday. The good thing is that the level of skill to do everything else AND micro the carriers would put you at a level where you should be reading micro guides or learning from pro's coaches ANYWAYS. I didn't even play Brood War, but I think I can safely say that BW was so close to becoming an actual game. One that doesn't change constantly. That seems like a big thing to me; with most video games the rules just change all the time patch after patch. BW was settling down and becoming a GAME; like chess, or go, or football. No more balance patches etc etc. I don't know what I think about that but I'm curious as to what you guys think. I just feel that with like SC2 there's just so many updates, still 2 expansions worth of units, people complaining non stop forever and ever. I think for the love of e-sports we need some game that has the content to be good enough to just BE THE GAME IT IS and no more is needed. Starcraft 2 sure as hell doesn't look like that game to me. I'm really not the person to talk about when it comes to no putting in the work to get better. I started 5 years after others and qualified for WCG US, in two of my first three years of playing the game. I still didn't know any of these tricks. The only thing I was aware of was shift click to scout. You can't have some units where micro is intuitive, such as splitting marines, yet have some units that operate in some bizarre fashion that only a select few people are privy to. If you would rather information be "hidden" on how to micro units, rather than easily accessible to all, then you really need to focus more on other ways to get an adv because that's sad. When some know and some don't, to no fault of their own, it's simply not an even playing field. There's really nothing to debate. So when someone doesn't know what a pin or a double attack is in chess, that makes chess an uneven playing field? Tactics like those are little tricks, after all. If you know so much about chess, maybe stick to talking about that. I'm sure starcraft would be better if there was no attack icon and it had a random hotkey that players had to discover. That would really help to separate the talented from the noobs. Is there really that little depth in this game that you have to grasp for hidden micro techniques? Maybe they can change it to that no races are shown when the game starts. Everything must be discovered the hard way or else it's just too ez. You must be some crazy gosu that is just desperate for a challenge. I wish I could be like that. Let's come back to earth a little here. No one is suggesting we remove a-move from the game. In fact, that's just the thing. Every unit will still have the a-move feature, which has the most "basic" of micro abilities (stutter step) since it cannot be avoided - a unit moves and attacks, you can stutter step it (probably an exaggeration, but you get the point). But you can increase the effectiveness of units with other micro-able actions. Different micro abilities for higher tier units to add more to the game itself. Something unique to a unit to spice things up a bit and really show players abilities. Not everyone will have to be good at the same thing like stutter step micro. Some may be good at Carrier micro, like how Jangbi was in BW and some may be terrible at it, like how Bisu wasn't particularly keen on using carriers, but he's still pretty good at making the most of other units. It's fun because it adds individuality to the pro gamers you watch. It also adds a certain style to yourself and differentiates you further from other people. it adds and doesn't merely replace anything. I like the chess analogy. It's like complaining about castling no?
yes i think that's the point. the guy complains that he doesn't want unintuitive things in his games such as castling in chess
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I wouldn't expect many to be able to relate... Many of times, I would go something like 50-5 on a ladder and all of my losses would be to 2 gate zealot rush in t vs p. I watched a Nada replay on Korhal that blew my mind. He was killing zealots like it was nothing with vultures. So, what do I do... I practice trying to use attack move without the adv of lan. So much time wasted basically attempting the impossible, simply because I didn't know to use P instead of "A." There is absolutely no freaking skill involved in knowing micro gimmicks.
This game should come down to mastery, not perverted ideas of skill. I'm not a hypocrite. I want the better player to win. I don't want to know any tricks that he/she doesn't. If that makes me wrong/bad person, then I'm not ashamed.
BW was boring in that after a certain time, you just didn't see new players rise to the top. For a period of a few years, Koll was probably the only new face. All of these micro tricks remaining hidden from the majority of the player base is simply more obstacles in the way, which in part leads to the same faces at the highest level. If you already have a games adv, what more of an adv do you really need? More emphasis on "talent," less emphasis on when you started playing and how much of a tl.net addiction you have.
Personally, I'd rather spend more time playing than browsing tl.net. And especially not browsing for what new quirky micro trick bs do I need to learn now. It's my opinion, but I prefer a game that can be taken at face value. You don't have to always wonder what trick you're not privy to atm. That's a good thing. And if you have a problem with blizzard adding tutorials, if not simply links to videos from tl.net, then you're simply not a reasonable person. You should ask yourself why you're not a reasonable person.
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On September 20 2012 16:14 playa wrote:
I wouldn't expect many to be able to relate... Many of times, I would go something like 50-5 on a ladder and all of my losses would be to 2 gate zealot rush in t vs p. I watched a Nada replay on Korhal that blew my mind. He was killing zealots like it was nothing with vultures. So, what do I do... I practice trying to use attack move without the adv of lan. So much time wasted basically attempting the impossible, simply because I didn't know to use P instead of "A." There is absolutely no freaking skill involved in knowing micro gimmicks.
This game should come down to mastery, not perverted ideas of skill. I'm not a hypocrite. I want the better player to win. I don't want to know any tricks that he/she doesn't. If that makes me wrong/bad person, then I'm not ashamed.
BW was boring in that after a certain time, you just didn't see new players rise to the top. For a period of a few years, Koll was probably the only new face. All of these micro tricks remaining hidden from the majority of the player base is simply more obstacles in the way, which in part leads to the same faces at the highest level. If you already have a games adv, what more of an adv do you really need? More emphasis on "talent," less emphasis on when you started playing and how much of a tl.net addiction you have.
Personally, I'd rather spend more time playing than browsing tl.net. And especially not browsing for what new quirky micro trick bs do I need to learn now. It's my opinion, but I prefer a game that can be taken at face value. You don't have to always wonder what trick you're not privy to atm. That's a good thing. And if you have a problem with blizzard adding tutorials, if not simply links to videos from tl.net, then you're simply not a reasonable person. You should ask yourself why you're not a reasonable person.
wow you must be THAT good! wow! you should be a progamer!
lol at no skill comment. a-move=no skill. patrol micro requires skill. if u dont wanna micro then a-move. no one's forcing u to use the micro. or maybe you're just a sore loser who doesn't wanna try anything else except a-move. if u want a game that's simple enough to play with no quirky micro tricks u can learn, then go play red alert... the game suits your one-dimensional way of thinking
and no one ever said that we didn't want tutorials.
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On September 20 2012 16:14 playa wrote:
I wouldn't expect many to be able to relate... Many of times, I would go something like 50-5 on a ladder and all of my losses would be to 2 gate zealot rush in t vs p. I watched a Nada replay on Korhal that blew my mind. He was killing zealots like it was nothing with vultures. So, what do I do... I practice trying to use attack move without the adv of lan. So much time wasted basically attempting the impossible, simply because I didn't know to use P instead of "A." There is absolutely no freaking skill involved in knowing micro gimmicks.
This game should come down to mastery, not perverted ideas of skill. I'm not a hypocrite. I want the better player to win. I don't want to know any tricks that he/she doesn't. If that makes me wrong/bad person, then I'm not ashamed.
BW was boring in that after a certain time, you just didn't see new players rise to the top. For a period of a few years, Koll was probably the only new face. All of these micro tricks remaining hidden from the majority of the player base is simply more obstacles in the way, which in part leads to the same faces at the highest level. If you already have a games adv, what more of an adv do you really need? More emphasis on "talent," less emphasis on when you started playing and how much of a tl.net addiction you have.
Personally, I'd rather spend more time playing than browsing tl.net. And especially not browsing for what new quirky micro trick bs do I need to learn now. It's my opinion, but I prefer a game that can be taken at face value. You don't have to always wonder what trick you're not privy to atm. That's a good thing. And if you have a problem with blizzard adding tutorials, if not simply links to videos from tl.net, then you're simply not a reasonable person. You should ask yourself why you're not a reasonable person.
It should be about talent AND the effort you put into the game. It could also be a way for Blizzard to indirectly reward people who have been playing their game for a long time. Since this thread is about carrier micro, I'll just focus on that for this post. It's not just you know about the Carrier Micro that you suddenly have the advantage. It's still pretty hard to do and takes a lot of time to master (you did say it should come down to mastery). Plus you're using APM instead of doing something else. You still have to balance it out with other things you have to do like creating more units or multiple engagements in the map.
In fact, it wouldn't really matter if you knew about the Carrier Micro but can't put it to good use or I dare say you may even be worse off by attempting it but failing bad and also neglecting other stuff you have to do in-game. I'm sure all pros know about it, but they still have different levels of success because others know how to use it to full efficiency while others don't quite grasp it fully just yet for a variety of reasons. The point is, it's not an advantage because it's not just one click of a button and it does what you tell it to do. It's something that turns into an advantage because you have trained yourself to know how to do it and do it effectively.
No one is saying Blizzard shouldn't add a tutorial. In fact it will probably be better if they do since they can tell people that this unit can do this neat micro but it's not a buff. You have to know how to use it or else it might even do more harm than good. The harder the micro is, the more chances of a player mis-micro-ing it like a greater risk but greater reward kind of thing. Do I just leave my carrier on a-move where I'm sure what it will do? Or do I micro it and have a chance of it not being as effective as just a-moving it if I don't do it properly but will increase its efficiency if I do micro it properly?
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On September 20 2012 16:14 playa wrote:
I wouldn't expect many to be able to relate... Many of times, I would go something like 50-5 on a ladder and all of my losses would be to 2 gate zealot rush in t vs p. I watched a Nada replay on Korhal that blew my mind. He was killing zealots like it was nothing with vultures. So, what do I do... I practice trying to use attack move without the adv of lan. So much time wasted basically attempting the impossible, simply because I didn't know to use P instead of "A." There is absolutely no freaking skill involved in knowing micro gimmicks.
This game should come down to mastery, not perverted ideas of skill. I'm not a hypocrite. I want the better player to win. I don't want to know any tricks that he/she doesn't. If that makes me wrong/bad person, then I'm not ashamed.
BW was boring in that after a certain time, you just didn't see new players rise to the top. For a period of a few years, Koll was probably the only new face. All of these micro tricks remaining hidden from the majority of the player base is simply more obstacles in the way, which in part leads to the same faces at the highest level. If you already have a games adv, what more of an adv do you really need? More emphasis on "talent," less emphasis on when you started playing and how much of a tl.net addiction you have.
Personally, I'd rather spend more time playing than browsing tl.net. And especially not browsing for what new quirky micro trick bs do I need to learn now. It's my opinion, but I prefer a game that can be taken at face value. You don't have to always wonder what trick you're not privy to atm. That's a good thing. And if you have a problem with blizzard adding tutorials, if not simply links to videos from tl.net, then you're simply not a reasonable person. You should ask yourself why you're not a reasonable person.
Talking about carrier micro please keep the patrol stuff out of the equation, it doesn't have anything to do with this and nobody is arguing for bringing it back here (Even if, it would be off topic).
Reading your comments it seems you have more of a problem with the interceptors staying outside than with the target-switch in leash range?
Concerning the carrier's behaviour with target-switch on leash-range i don't even consider this to be a hidden mechanic or in any way unintuitive. This was pretty clear once you used carriers in BW (imo). You tell them to attack a new target and the interceptors switch but carriers fly towards it, you tell carriers to fly somewhere else, carriers still attack. Would have been more unintuitive to have them fly back in to attack a new target when they can attack targets from a further distance once interceptors are out.
I can see your concern with the interceptors staying outside, it was really strange when I first discovered it in Brood War. It's also true, that just by not being obvious a mechanic doesn't necessarily increase the potential for a pro's skill showing through it. I don't think anyone's saying "We need more hidden mechanics for the pros to shine". Still, It is not that hard to figure out on your own after all. You are bound to notics, that sometimes interceptors pop out not 1 at a time but all at once. If you noticed this and are even in the slightest interested in the game mechanics you will try to reproduce it and quickly see that this happens when the carriers stay moving. That's a completely different thing than using patrol. This will maybe never naturally occur in a normal game to you.
Basically it's about bringing the carrier back to being the powerful unit it should be considering its cost and position in the tech-tree anyway. The described mechanics add a lot to the carrier. Both of those things are definitely buffs. Targetswitch in leash range can be considered a non-issue I think? Interceptors staying outside to instantly attack vs returning to get healed adds a lot of depth to carrier micro I think. I would definitly be for adding it in.
As I said this is not all that hidden. And if you want everything to be obvious you should also complain about stuff like marauder missles missing blink stalkers when you blink just at the right moment, dropshipmicro to prevent damage, archon-toilet, move+shift blink to get large groups of stalkers across cliffs, scouting probes mining mineralpatches to screw up your worker AI, basically every use of game-mechanic that isn't instantly obvious. Where would you want to draw that line? I can definitely see that at some point it does get ridiculous. Like If you had to run your stalker in a pentagram to get a temporary speedboost or something like that :D
I even don't have anything against more complicated stuff being possible, as long as the difference it makes is slight enough to only matter at a certain level. Let's be honest, anyone who is a little bit interested in playing this game and considers it more then just passtime casual gaming a few times per month will easily found out all this stuff. And if, as I said, it doesn't make too big of a difference, the other players will just play normally, not really suffering any consequences anyway. For a bronzeleaguer it is not bad not to know about carrier-micro, he probably also doesn't know that 4 sentries can chain-forcefield a ramp, or about camerasaves, or about efficient use of hotykes and controlgroups, or cloning. Still he will benefit much much more from getting is macro up than slightly increasing the efficiency of his carriers. For everyone more into the game it is no problem in the age of internet and youtube, to find out this stuff. He could also go to the extreme and just ask someone he sees doing this, how it is possible. Or use google.
Also you are greatly exaggerating with having to do daily checks on tl.net to see the newest "micro quirks". It's not like this stuff gets discovered on a daily, weekly or even monthly basis...
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On September 20 2012 16:36 AlmondCS wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 16:14 playa wrote:
I wouldn't expect many to be able to relate... Many of times, I would go something like 50-5 on a ladder and all of my losses would be to 2 gate zealot rush in t vs p. I watched a Nada replay on Korhal that blew my mind. He was killing zealots like it was nothing with vultures. So, what do I do... I practice trying to use attack move without the adv of lan. So much time wasted basically attempting the impossible, simply because I didn't know to use P instead of "A." There is absolutely no freaking skill involved in knowing micro gimmicks.
This game should come down to mastery, not perverted ideas of skill. I'm not a hypocrite. I want the better player to win. I don't want to know any tricks that he/she doesn't. If that makes me wrong/bad person, then I'm not ashamed.
BW was boring in that after a certain time, you just didn't see new players rise to the top. For a period of a few years, Koll was probably the only new face. All of these micro tricks remaining hidden from the majority of the player base is simply more obstacles in the way, which in part leads to the same faces at the highest level. If you already have a games adv, what more of an adv do you really need? More emphasis on "talent," less emphasis on when you started playing and how much of a tl.net addiction you have.
Personally, I'd rather spend more time playing than browsing tl.net. And especially not browsing for what new quirky micro trick bs do I need to learn now. It's my opinion, but I prefer a game that can be taken at face value. You don't have to always wonder what trick you're not privy to atm. That's a good thing. And if you have a problem with blizzard adding tutorials, if not simply links to videos from tl.net, then you're simply not a reasonable person. You should ask yourself why you're not a reasonable person.
wow you must be THAT good! wow! you should be a progamer! lol at no skill comment. a-move=no skill. patrol micro requires skill. if u dont wanna micro then a-move. no one's forcing u to use the micro. or maybe you're just a sore loser who doesn't wanna try anything else except a-move. if u want a game that's simple enough to play with no quirky micro tricks u can learn, then go play red alert... the game suits your one-dimensional way of thinking and no one ever said that we didn't want tutorials.
Don't know whether to debate abortion or what you said. Yes, I guess P is harder to hit than A on the keyboard. One-dimensional thinking. Too bad this isn't a game requiring thinking or I'm sure you would be amazing. Bummer. Tough break. As for the carrier thing, this is more about a "slippery slope" than simply 1 trick; if everyone goes crazy over this, who is to stop people from clamoring for every other BW trick to be brought back? There's nothing to debate here, in my eyes. I would hope the discussion would be directed more towards the viability/strength of the carrier.
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On September 20 2012 16:14 playa wrote:
I wouldn't expect many to be able to relate... Many of times, I would go something like 50-5 on a ladder and all of my losses would be to 2 gate zealot rush in t vs p. I watched a Nada replay on Korhal that blew my mind. He was killing zealots like it was nothing with vultures. So, what do I do... I practice trying to use attack move without the adv of lan. So much time wasted basically attempting the impossible, simply because I didn't know to use P instead of "A." There is absolutely no freaking skill involved in knowing micro gimmicks.
This game should come down to mastery, not perverted ideas of skill. I'm not a hypocrite. I want the better player to win. I don't want to know any tricks that he/she doesn't. If that makes me wrong/bad person, then I'm not ashamed.
BW was boring in that after a certain time, you just didn't see new players rise to the top. For a period of a few years, Koll was probably the only new face. All of these micro tricks remaining hidden from the majority of the player base is simply more obstacles in the way, which in part leads to the same faces at the highest level. If you already have a games adv, what more of an adv do you really need? More emphasis on "talent," less emphasis on when you started playing and how much of a tl.net addiction you have.
Personally, I'd rather spend more time playing than browsing tl.net. And especially not browsing for what new quirky micro trick bs do I need to learn now. It's my opinion, but I prefer a game that can be taken at face value. You don't have to always wonder what trick you're not privy to atm. That's a good thing. And if you have a problem with blizzard adding tutorials, if not simply links to videos from tl.net, then you're simply not a reasonable person. You should ask yourself why you're not a reasonable person.
Why didnt you ask any of your opponents for advice? Its pretty hard to not know about those things if you play the game a couple of hours every day. Really, if its anyone's fault, its yours.
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On September 20 2012 16:14 playa wrote:
I wouldn't expect many to be able to relate... Many of times, I would go something like 50-5 on a ladder and all of my losses would be to 2 gate zealot rush in t vs p. I watched a Nada replay on Korhal that blew my mind. He was killing zealots like it was nothing with vultures. So, what do I do... I practice trying to use attack move without the adv of lan. So much time wasted basically attempting the impossible, simply because I didn't know to use P instead of "A." There is absolutely no freaking skill involved in knowing micro gimmicks.
This game should come down to mastery, not perverted ideas of skill. I'm not a hypocrite. I want the better player to win. I don't want to know any tricks that he/she doesn't. If that makes me wrong/bad person, then I'm not ashamed.
BW was boring in that after a certain time, you just didn't see new players rise to the top. For a period of a few years, Koll was probably the only new face. All of these micro tricks remaining hidden from the majority of the player base is simply more obstacles in the way, which in part leads to the same faces at the highest level. If you already have a games adv, what more of an adv do you really need? More emphasis on "talent," less emphasis on when you started playing and how much of a tl.net addiction you have.
Personally, I'd rather spend more time playing than browsing tl.net. And especially not browsing for what new quirky micro trick bs do I need to learn now. It's my opinion, but I prefer a game that can be taken at face value. You don't have to always wonder what trick you're not privy to atm. That's a good thing. And if you have a problem with blizzard adding tutorials, if not simply links to videos from tl.net, then you're simply not a reasonable person. You should ask yourself why you're not a reasonable person.
At this time and age, it would be unreasonable for Blizzard to implement a change without telling the public about it. BW was BW, and in all seriousness, Blizzard did nothing to implement things like patrol micro or muta stacking, so the game developers didn't know about it. If Blizzard decides to implement something like this in SC2, people would know about it, it'd probably be posted in some post or some patch notes.
Is it stupid to be wasting time trying to achieve the impossible because you don't know about a micro trick? Yes, but in the same way, it's stupid trying to get to higher ranks because you think 4 gate is the only build Protoss has, or it's stupid to try and get to C- without learning that getting detection in TvP is good, or it's stupid to try and go professional when you don't even understand timing or map control. If you really like the game, you'd want to learn more about it. Is not watching streams and fpviews part of learning? Do you not have the commands and actions in the actual replays themselves? Do you not have casters going around screaming "omg player X needs to micro against Y" all the time?
Saying that the TBLS dominated BW for the last couple of years because they knew "micro tricks" is a laughable claim. The TBLS had talent, they understood the game at a much higher level than whatever you thought you had at WCG. Maybe back in the day, when July and Nada knew about patrol micro or muta stacking would this claim be somehow relevant but even then, strategies and knowledge got passed around really quickly. You couldn't survive on that knowledge of a "micro trick" alone.
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EPT
