On September 12 2012 02:47 Garmer wrote: they made it a-move on purpose, nothing we can do will change their mind sadly... we should fund a kickstarter project for a BW-like-RTS; Sc2 is fucked on so many levels that is beyond repair already
Whats really sad imo is that they think casuals dont play this game because its hard rather than because of its poor uninteresting and overall bad game design, units that have no soul, cartoonish graphics, poor rts engine, epic fail battlenet, and the fact that the game doesnt suck you in neither with its MP nor SP. Casuals dont play because its not fun, not because its too hard. And I love the people who are in denial about these very serious matters!
On September 12 2012 02:47 Garmer wrote: they made it a-move on purpose, nothing we can do will change their mind sadly... we should fund a kickstarter project for a BW-like-RTS; Sc2 is fucked on so many levels that is beyond repair already
Whats really sad imo is that they think casuals dont play this game because its hard rather than because of its poor uninteresting and overall bad game design, units that have no soul, cartoonish graphics, poor rts engine, epic fail battlenet, and the fact that the game doesnt suck you in neither with its MP nor SP. Casuals dont play because its not fun, not because its too hard. And I love the people who are in denial about these very serious matters!
Not true. Many times i didn't ladder because i felt I am in too terrible shape to even stand up even ground with Toss or Zerg. Terran is not a race for casuals ATM - Warhound, as Blizz stated many times, is to change that.
On September 11 2012 01:28 red4ce wrote: I wonder if maybe the blandness of the warhound isn't a terran problem, but a zerg/protoss one. Looking back at the goliath and the dragoon, there really isn't anything inspired about their design. What made these units fun to watch was that they had an opponent worthy of micro-ing against rather than just 1a2a3a4a. For the goliath this opponent was the carrier and for the dragoon it was the vulture/spidermine.
Why don't we see this sort of thing in SC2? It isn't because the units are too limited in design. Ground units can split and target fire in SC2 just as they could in BW. It's because there aren't any enough situations for this kind of micro to take place.
The other big thing here are the distinct range tiers that everything has.
Spider mine range < marine range = dragoon range (unupgraded) < vulture range < dragoon range (upgraded) < tank range
The fact that dragoons can kite marines (they can't kite vultures since vultures are faster than goons) all day but not tanks makes micro vs say, a fake double, very, very interesting. It's not JUST the spider mines that do this.
On September 12 2012 02:47 Garmer wrote: they made it a-move on purpose, nothing we can do will change their mind sadly... we should fund a kickstarter project for a BW-like-RTS; Sc2 is fucked on so many levels that is beyond repair already
Whats really sad imo is that they think casuals dont play this game because its hard rather than because of its poor uninteresting and overall bad game design, units that have no soul, cartoonish graphics, poor rts engine, epic fail battlenet, and the fact that the game doesnt suck you in neither with its MP nor SP. Casuals dont play because its not fun, not because its too hard. And I love the people who are in denial about these very serious matters!
difficulty doesnt explain bw's success and in terms of unit synergy and things to do, micro prowess, bw offers so much more which makes it more fun
On September 12 2012 02:47 Garmer wrote: they made it a-move on purpose, nothing we can do will change their mind sadly... we should fund a kickstarter project for a BW-like-RTS; Sc2 is fucked on so many levels that is beyond repair already
Whats really sad imo is that they think casuals dont play this game because its hard rather than because of its poor uninteresting and overall bad game design, units that have no soul, cartoonish graphics, poor rts engine, epic fail battlenet, and the fact that the game doesnt suck you in neither with its MP nor SP. Casuals dont play because its not fun, not because its too hard. And I love the people who are in denial about these very serious matters!
difficulty doesnt explain bw's success and in terms of unit synergy and things to do, micro prowess, bw offers so much more which makes it more fun
The same things that make BW more fun to watch make it more difficult and frustrating to play. Much steeper curve.
Orb, what a well written piece. I agree with everything you said, and it is a sad thing when not just blizzard but other big game companies make games the same way.
Oh yea btw first post after about 2 years of no account and only lurking hai everyone ;p
I would disagree with the OP in that I think easy a-move units don't need to be removed from the game. BW had plenty of A-move units too. Instead, A-move units need to be underpowered when compared to their more skilled bretheren. A newbie should be able to utilize an a-move unit and walk over other unskilled players, but a skilled player should have a skilled method of consistently countering that unit.
The warhound is fine if it's underpowered at the pro level, but that's not what we're seeing. Meanwhile, units like the raven need to be overpowered, not balanced, at the pro level of skill. As long as each race has both the easy-to-use underpowered units, the middle-skill balanced units, and the hard-to-use overpowered units, then we'll see relatively even curves of player development in all races.
As it stands now, Terran seems to have to consistently rely on medium or high skill units in order to defeat low-medium skilled opposing units and only the very tip top elite Terrans are capable of doing it. Meanwhile, the tip-top elite zergs and especially protosses are getting stuck in a bunch with nobody able to separate himself from the pack.
With protoss especially, it seems like either every pro is doing well in the current balance patch and meta-game or every pro is doing poorly. Seems like the game isn't rewarding the high-skill units for protoss.
1) Warhound. We all know it has overlapping roles with too many units in the game and serves no other purpose than being a direct counter to immortals ( and A-move ). I completely agree with that -orb- said. Couldn't have said it better myself. Let's just scrap this unit.
2) I know some people are asking for some sort of goliath remake. But if you really think about it, the thor is essentially a goliath remake! Blizzard tried to remake the thor multiple times. They tried to make it a hero unit like the mothership.. they made it smaller so that it is easier to control, but then not small enough to seem like a goliath. Seems blizzard is trying to put the goliath into the game, but by not actually putting the goliath in. Make up your bloody mind, blizzard.
DB: "Oh maybe we can bring back the goliath by introducing a similar unit model and we call it the warhound? Sound good right? Right? RIGHT? RIGHT?" Me: "No, I don't think so Dustin."
3) Initially, the hellion was vulture + firebats hybrid.. Now, lets give the players the choice of going 60% vulture 40%firebat or 70% firebat 30% vulture!!
You might as well make them two separate units and let the player choose what to make. DB: "But wait.. the viking unit design was such a success! I love transformers!"
I think hellions are already very well designed. Despite being quite similar to the vulture, it is still distinct enough. It's also a very exciting unit to watch from a spectator POV. In my opinion, the hellions should be kept the same. Maybe throw in an upgrade to make them more viable for late game -- higher dmg output, more splash etc.
4) Bring back spider mines but make them standalone units. Isn't that really similar to the baneling? which is essentially a hybrid between the scourge and spider mine. You gonna give the protoss some of these nasty babies in LotV too?
Having said that, I still like the idea of crawling tank lines and spider mines across the map. It complements the mech philosophy very nicely.
5) Moving onto my proposed solutions: a) If we were to keep the hellions the same, we need something beefy to stand between our tanks and the enemy lings/zealot. I think a melee mech unit would be a good idea. The hellion can still be built at the player's will, and can still be used to protect the tank lines.. But it should be kept as a unit more suited for raiding and fast hit/run situations. You simply cannot have a unit that is Beefy/fast/has splash dmg/melee ALL with one click, one transformation. Players should make that conscious decision when they are queueing up units for production. We don't need a one-size-fit-all C&C unit that is built en masse.
b) The Thor is an extremely tanky unit, and it can shoot everything (up and down), but the down side of that is it is very slow. Sounds like a good concept on paper, but what we end up having is an extremely boring unit to watch, and an extremely frustrating unit to use. Also, the thor shuts down stacked air units completely.. which is reasonable given it's slow movement/atk speed, but imo the air attack serves a very niche role -- which is to completely shutdown mutalisks.
A zerg player with good mutalisk control can evade archons ( they, too, have anti-air splash). However the thors have insane range. If the zerg player goes in blindly with 3-4 thors waiting, that's just about the end of the mutalisk play. No amount of fancy micro can save your from that.
Proposed solution? The thor's anti-air seems to be tailored for anti-muta play, and it's decent ground attack + beefy hp/armor serves as protection for the tank line. Why not split it into two units? Create another tanky mech units that is not a hellion/firebat transformer. Also, create a smaller, more micro friendly anti-air mech unit. Because if you think about it.. mech play is very vulnerable to air -- nothing shoots up! In Bw, it is very common to built turrets along with your siege tank/spider mine lines for better board control. Bring in an anti-air unit that is mobile enough and effective enough to win any even-food GtA battle, but don't give it a massive anti-air burst dmg like the thor.. that way, it gives micro play more room to grow. Players need to position these anti air units strategically to catch mutalisks, while players with good muta control will not be punished too severely.
Final words: It is my intention to not describe these proposed unit in too much detail. I believe that a creative unit design is crucial, for both gameplay and spectating. That is why I only suggested a role for the new unit to fit, as well as highlight the issues with the current mech composition. Right now many units fulfill similar roles.. they are boring, give tendency to A-move/deathball syndrome, and it just feels like the unit design is all over the place.
actually i lost my interest in sc2 a while ago. i hoped hots would change it, but it seems rather disappointing for what i have seen so far. that´s why i think OP is damn right. blizzard is losing its rep.
i´m just happy TL added dota2, so i still come here quite often
On September 12 2012 03:58 RenSC2 wrote: I would disagree with the OP in that I think easy a-move units don't need to be removed from the game. BW had plenty of A-move units too. Instead, A-move units need to be underpowered when compared to their more skilled bretheren. A newbie should be able to utilize an a-move unit and walk over other unskilled players, but a skilled player should have a skilled method of consistently countering that unit.
The warhound is fine if it's underpowered at the pro level, but that's not what we're seeing. Meanwhile, units like the raven need to be overpowered, not balanced, at the pro level of skill. As long as each race has both the easy-to-use underpowered units, the middle-skill balanced units, and the hard-to-use overpowered units, then we'll see relatively even curves of player development in all races.
As it stands now, Terran seems to have to consistently rely on medium or high skill units in order to defeat low-medium skilled opposing units and only the very tip top elite Terrans are capable of doing it. Meanwhile, the tip-top elite zergs and especially protosses are getting stuck in a bunch with nobody able to separate himself from the pack.
With protoss especially, it seems like either every pro is doing well in the current balance patch and meta-game or every pro is doing poorly. Seems like the game isn't rewarding the high-skill units for protoss.
i agree. it´s been the overpowered units that made bw great. yet it was balanced since every race had those.
In SC/BW most units seemed overpowered in certain situations and weak in others.
That was the true beauty of it, this has just not translated over to SC2 well... Except with some of the old BW units that did not change totally like the Zergling/Marine/Zealot or had removed their hard counters and microcapability like Mutas...
The new units are next to all "meh". The Baneling and Hellion are probably the best "new" units.
I'd be surprised if you made a poll and even 15% voted that the warhound, in it's current state of usage (regardless of actual balance) is even "acceptable" as a unit.
Great post. I remember watching your stream the first time a warhound popped out of a factory..."what the fuck is that, it's walking so fast it doesn't even seem real, looks like a joke, is this some sort of blizzard troll?"
I also don't like the warhound. I can't see any interesting synergies for it. Also I don't see how the warhound in any form promotes the usage of siege tanks.
I agree 100%. I love almost all of the changes in HotS, but the Warhound is just so repulsive, and when I watched my first HotS TvT (TvT is one of my favorite matchup in WoL), I nearly crid T_T
the BW philosophy was not if something is too strong, we make it weaker. BW was basically "if everything is imbalanced, nothing is." On paper each race had things that seemed completely ridiculous, but as every race had these options, they effectively cancelled out but still led to a faster paced more intense game
EPT
