On September 08 2012 02:06 Illiterate wrote: I find it funny that Blizzard changed the energy cost of Contaminate just as DESTINY was finding out how good it was, but before it was abused. I would have liked to have seen it be abused.
Also, I just had an idea, what if you could for no cost but only time (about 20 seconds?) change a mutalisk to a corruptor and vice versa? Or would that be insanely overpowered?
I fixed your post. Destiny is the sole reason why it got nerfed, because he invented an unstopable 1 base all in vs protoss(protoss would never get warpgate, thus they would lose to 2 base roaches).
On Topic: The corruptor is a boring, one-dimensional unit. It's effin good, but it's boring as shit, and i don't even want to look at them.
Bullshit. Protoss produces fast enough from gateways alone, not only to hold such play, but also to expand, if they choose to go gateway expand. Contaminate wasn't nerfed, the Overseer was buffed in a way that meant that contaminate had to have its energycost nerfed accordingly to keep it on even powerlevel with before.
May or may not be true that such an allin might have had a place before, but noone ever cared about it as it would definatly have been dealable. 2base roach is really weak, especially as you have to invest heavily into lair and overseers early on.
On September 08 2012 02:06 Illiterate wrote: I find it funny that Blizzard changed the energy cost of Contaminate just as DESTINY was finding out how good it was, but before it was abused. I would have liked to have seen it be abused.
Also, I just had an idea, what if you could for no cost but only time (about 20 seconds?) change a mutalisk to a corruptor and vice versa? Or would that be insanely overpowered?
I fixed your post. Destiny is the sole reason why it got nerfed, because he invented an unstopable 1 base all in vs protoss(protoss would never get warpgate, thus they would lose to 2 base roaches).
On Topic: The corruptor is a boring, one-dimensional unit. It's effin good, but it's boring as shit, and i don't even want to look at them.
Then why don't we change the Corruptor to not be just one-dimensional boring unit that it is right now? I think that Blizzard will come up with something.
On September 07 2012 21:10 HowardRoark wrote: Instead of Corruption I thought out a new feature for the Corruptor:
Corruption Crash - Some kind of one time use Kamikaze attack that make the Corruptor crash land on the ground. Either to crash into buildings that will be corrupted, or some kind of crash land on open ground or crash into a unit that does a certain amount of damage to the unit and afterwards the Corruptor is destroyed.
Perhaps it's spell can be to crash land into static defences unpowering them for a certain amount of time. Imagine as a last resort the Zerg's Corruptors, after killed all Colossus in the enemy army start to fall from the sky on every Photon cannon and Stalker nearby. It should be very spectator friendly seeing all Corruptors fall from the sky in a last valiant effort to feign defeat. It also follows the lore of masses of Zerg sacrificing themselves: Think Locusts, Banelings, Broodlings, and now Kamikaze Corruptors. It could be balanced easily to not be OP by making the impact damage as low as necessary. It could also add lots of spectator friendly micro moments if, when spotted, the enemy units tries to dodge the falling Corruptors that all of a sudden start to rain from the sky.
What do you think?
I love this idea. Probably just because I am a retard and make corruptors to soon and lose even though I am way a head
On October 04 2012 07:00 StreetWise wrote: Browder stated on the b.net forums they are open to changing WOL units, however they are looking at tweaking HOTS units first.
nothing new. There were multiple posts from him about this already. It's just that people will cry until the patches hit the servers.
Stuff like the BC vs ground buff, carrier removal, Raven buff etc were already in the game and removed because blizzard wanted to force people into trying the new units in the WoL setup first, before they start going exclusively mass raven/BC (which they did). And there were a lot of comments about changing units "down the road" etc...
I think it is time for TL to start a "Reasonable wishlist"-thread for blizzard. Basically a list thread about units that are boring and should be changed (reasonably; unlike changes that blizzard won't make like pathing, selection, BW-units and complete removal/overhaul of core units)
Cool post, would definitely recommend like others, to repost on battle.net forums. Maybe not for a little while as DB has posted several times now that they are not dealing with old units until they finish messing with new stuff.
On October 04 2012 07:00 StreetWise wrote: Browder stated on the b.net forums they are open to changing WOL units, however they are looking at tweaking HOTS units first.
nothing new. There were multiple posts from him about this already. It's just that people will cry until the patches hit the servers.
Stuff like the BC vs ground buff, carrier removal, Raven buff etc were already in the game and removed because blizzard wanted to force people into trying the new units in the WoL setup first, before they start going exclusively mass raven/BC (which they did). And there were a lot of comments about changing units "down the road" etc...
I think it is time for TL to start a "Reasonable wishlist"-thread for blizzard. Basically a list thread about units that are boring and should be changed (reasonably; unlike changes that blizzard won't make like pathing, selection, BW-units and complete removal/overhaul of core units)
Would absolutely love to see that. If we really want blizzard to change stuff we need a decent following for it. A collective and embraced list of reasonable changes would be really cool.
On October 04 2012 07:00 StreetWise wrote: Browder stated on the b.net forums they are open to changing WOL units, however they are looking at tweaking HOTS units first.
im glad for that clarification. the last statement was pretty brunt about not touching old units.
in regards to a previous post of mine, adding acid spores to the corruptor:
FYI Acid Spores was the Devourer attack from brood wars. Each attack placed 1 acid spore on the target which reduced the target attack speed, stackable upto 9 acid spores, iirc upto 12% reduction in dps.
The way SC2 is designed, corrupters are solely built to be a hard counter to massive units: colo, carrier, BC, BL, and now tempest. The corrupter fills the original role of the scourge in some respects by making it very hard for toss and terran to build these units. With these expensive units dying very quickly, corrupter have contributed to the stale evolution of the game.
But this is an opportunity to allow units like the carrier, BC, and now tempest, to add another sorrily needed dynamic to the game. A change in the DPS model of the corrupter is probably needed to balance the reward.
How acid spores will effect units and matchups (assuming reduced corrupter dps): Colossus: survives longer in an engagement from lowered corrupter dps, but ground attack speed is reduced Carrier: markedly increased effectiveness vZ because corrupter cannot kill as fast and acid spores have no effect on interceptors. Tempest: To note since I wrote this blizzard added +massive to tempest. Tempest are most likely built to counter BL, Tempest already has low DPS, forces zerg to make decisions regarding the number of corrupters they build/morph, for whether they want to reduce tempest effectiveness or add BLs to their army. BC: survives longer in an engagement from lowered corrupter dps, but overall damage effectiveness is reduced .
Even having acid spores as a spell (to replace/in addition to corruption) would be neat, effecting both ground and air targets, adding another level of micro to the unit. In this regard, returning energy to the corruptor?
i have no real solid maths on the above, just an idea.
On October 04 2012 07:00 StreetWise wrote: Browder stated on the b.net forums they are open to changing WOL units, however they are looking at tweaking HOTS units first.
FYI Acid Spores was the Devourer attack from brood wars. Each attack placed 1 acid spore on the target which reduced the target attack speed, stackable upto 9 acid spores, iirc upto 12% reduction in dps.
The way SC2 is designed, corrupters are solely built to be a hard counter to massive units: colo, carrier, BC, BL, and now tempest. The corrupter fills the original role of the scourge in some respects by making it very hard for toss and terran to build these units. With these expensive units dying very quickly, corrupter have contributed to the stale evolution of the game.
But this is an opportunity to allow units like the carrier, BC, and now tempest, to add another sorrily needed dynamic to the game. A change in the DPS model of the corrupter is probably needed to balance the reward.
How acid spores will effect units and matchups (assuming reduced corrupter dps): Colossus: survives longer in an engagement from lowered corrupter dps, but ground attack speed is reduced Carrier: markedly increased effectiveness vZ because corrupter cannot kill as fast and acid spores have no effect on interceptors. Tempest: To note since I wrote this blizzard added +massive to tempest. Tempest are most likely built to counter BL, Tempest already has low DPS, forces zerg to make decisions regarding the number of corrupters they build/morph, for whether they want to reduce tempest effectiveness or add BLs to their army. BC: survives longer in an engagement from lowered corrupter dps, but overall damage effectiveness is reduced .
Even having acid spores as a spell (to replace/in addition to corruption) would be neat, effecting both ground and air targets, adding another level of micro to the unit. In this regard, returning energy to the corruptor?
i have no real solid maths on the above, just an idea.
If I recall correctly, the biggest boon that acid spores gave was the fact that they acted as negative armor adjustments and were applied in a splash, even though the actual damage of the attack only hit one target. So with 9 spores a 3/3 Battlecruiser would actually sit at -3 armor, meaning each hit it would take would actually add three damage to it. This made a few devourers with a hand full of mutas (and hydras, of course) that much more deadly since each glave bounce would benefit from the armor reduction. Making the opposing units attack slightly slower was really just gravy on top of this.
As for cool new uses for the overseer, I've always wondered why zerg doesn't have some sort of cliff walking ability. What if... the overseer's energy could be used to simulate cliff walking? When the drop tech is researched, instead of the overseer being a transport, it could attach its tentacles to the same space worth of units that it would have been able to as an overlord (maybe excluding massive units?). Then it could hop units up cliffs until it's energy runs out, kinda of like cloak, only the energy would run out faster the more units are attached by the tentacles. In this way no one unit really gets the cliff walking ability, so you don't have to worry about infinite cliff crawling lings like in the HOTS single player previews from a while back. But Zerg then do have a bit more options when it comes to some of the more closed off spaces.
As for the corruptor, I've had a few ideas, but none that were quite as good (imo) as the overseer idea, so I'll leave it at that. I do think these units could use a little love, though.
On October 04 2012 07:00 StreetWise wrote: Browder stated on the b.net forums they are open to changing WOL units, however they are looking at tweaking HOTS units first.
nothing new. There were multiple posts from him about this already. It's just that people will cry until the patches hit the servers.
Stuff like the BC vs ground buff, carrier removal, Raven buff etc were already in the game and removed because blizzard wanted to force people into trying the new units in the WoL setup first, before they start going exclusively mass raven/BC (which they did). And there were a lot of comments about changing units "down the road" etc...
I think it is time for TL to start a "Reasonable wishlist"-thread for blizzard. Basically a list thread about units that are boring and should be changed (reasonably; unlike changes that blizzard won't make like pathing, selection, BW-units and complete removal/overhaul of core units)
Would absolutely love to see that. If we really want blizzard to change stuff we need a decent following for it. A collective and embraced list of reasonable changes would be really cool.
yeah. It wouldn't even need to be concrete changes. It could be just general suggestions like:
overseer: problems: it has no use outside of scouting and detection. contaminate is not useful and hard to balance with a 0 supply 50/50 unit suggestion: remove contaminate, add a different spell
and then add an example: 125energy spell: every ability of the targeted unit costs 50extra energy to be used. If the unit has no energy, it cannot use abilities. (duration 4sec)
I could go on for ages with such problems, suggestions, examples and I think that the community would stand united behind a lot of problems and suggestions, even if they would not like the examples. But in the end, concrete changes are what blizzard has to decide upon and which they have the better tools to. Our job is to rise their awareness that there is stuff to improve upon.
On October 04 2012 07:00 StreetWise wrote: Browder stated on the b.net forums they are open to changing WOL units, however they are looking at tweaking HOTS units first.
nothing new. There were multiple posts from him about this already. It's just that people will cry until the patches hit the servers.
Stuff like the BC vs ground buff, carrier removal, Raven buff etc were already in the game and removed because blizzard wanted to force people into trying the new units in the WoL setup first, before they start going exclusively mass raven/BC (which they did). And there were a lot of comments about changing units "down the road" etc...
I think it is time for TL to start a "Reasonable wishlist"-thread for blizzard. Basically a list thread about units that are boring and should be changed (reasonably; unlike changes that blizzard won't make like pathing, selection, BW-units and complete removal/overhaul of core units)
Would absolutely love to see that. If we really want blizzard to change stuff we need a decent following for it. A collective and embraced list of reasonable changes would be really cool.
Blizzard has been the most receptive towards SC2 changes I've seen in a long time. If we want to get some big changes in, this would be the time to rally behind this because it probably will not happen again until Legacy of the Void comes out.
On September 07 2012 09:40 red4ce wrote: I think the reason corruptors are so boring is because of their feeble attack animation. Compare the corruptor and the viking for example
The viking in fighter mode is essentially the same thing as a corruptor (long range air to air combat unit), yet viking battles are way cooler because of the little explosion after each attack. It also sounds like the deadly missile it's supposed to be. On the other hand the corruptor attack looks and sounds like my grandpa spitting out a cherry pit.
I agree. Corruptor just needs a new attack animation and perhaps ability redesign.
Overseer is fine as is. It's zergy, and its spells are nice and situationally useful.
They need to make the Overseer cost like 2 supply, while still giving you 8 supply, for them to make them interesting. Since otherwise, whatever "usefull spell" they give them, will be ridiculously overpowered.
The first ZvZ i ever played, i thought to myself, by golly i'm gonna harass the shit out of his Overlords. So i said, Mutalisks might be able to give me harass capability, while giving map control, some sense of army improvement, but hell, I'm gonna make Corruptors instead. They will kill Overlords better and if my opponent goes Mutas, it's autoloss for him. Well, turns out.. Mutas are better at killing Overlords than Corruptors Back when we all were newbies..
So i think maybe if they made Corruptors better at killing Overlords or something, there would be at least some other appliance for it. Then i remembered the Alpha ability, the Corruptors had, which was something along, when they kill units, they posses them. Well maybe to have this interesting dynamic, while being balanced, you could do some sort of requirement. Like, when you've damaged an air unit down to beneath 33% HP, then you can sacrifice your Corruptor and take over the air unit, with a cool animation of the Corruptor colliding into the Air Ship.
I admittedly did not read every post in here, so not sure if this was suggested or not;
What about giving the overlord the observer ability when lair hits (e.g.like the dropping creep ability is unlocked by lair) and then redesign the overseer? (And even call it something else that matches this new [overseer] unit's abilities.)
EDIT: Or even swap around the drop creep ability to the overseer, giving the overlord the observer ability as a passive upgrade once you hit lair and the need to spend gas to drop creep...
On October 04 2012 21:49 selaas wrote: EDIT: Or even swap around the drop creep ability to the overseer, giving the overlord the observer ability as a passive upgrade once you hit lair and the need to spend gas to drop creep...
That would work only if the Creep Spread ability would be as good as from the Creep Tower(Nydus Worm evolution that will be in the campaign), because people don't use Overlords for Creep Spread at all, they use Creep Tumors, since they cost only energy, and you don't risk to lose the Overlord.
I don't get the hate towards the Corruptor, it does what it's supposed to to and moreover has an ability, which can be pretty handy. It's basically a Roach in the air. No every unit needs to have something super special in my opinion.
On October 04 2012 22:04 CruelZeratul wrote: I don't get the hate towards the Corruptor, it does what it's supposed to to and moreover has an ability, which can be pretty handy. It's basically a Roach in the air. No every unit needs to have something super special in my opinion.
That "flying Roach" comparison is actually pretty good, it has solid speed, it is very tanky, and doesn't have good dps, but problem is that Roach is very very cheap, unlike Corruptor that is 150/100. I mean, Vikings are 150/75, and they are fragile because they have long range, but besides that, they can land and attack ground(which isn't so good, but it is decent for harassing), Corruptors can't do anything like that.
With Phoenixes and Vikings, you can always harass/support your army since they actually can take on ground targets, if the enemy doesn't have air units anymore, but if you are left with Corruptors, and you usually are left with masses of them, you have to sacrifice units to be able to morph them into Brood Lords, since Brood Lords cost additional supply. That in my opinion is bad design. They have to do something with its ability, change it somehow, so it actually matters and can change the outcome of the fight vs. ground units. Right now, you can use it vs. ground, but barely anyone is doing it, since the buff isn't actually that big, and you will use it only vs. Large units.
They are good for what they are made for, but that isn't really the point.
On October 04 2012 22:44 Ramiz1989 wrote: With Phoenixes and Vikings, you can always harass/support your army since they actually can take on ground targets, if the enemy doesn't have air units anymore, but if you are left with Corruptors, and you usually are left with masses of them, you have to sacrifice units to be able to morph them into Brood Lords, since Brood Lords cost additional supply
Not every unit has to be exciting to create a compelling game environment. The fact that corruptors are a required stepping stool for broods gives your opponent reasonable timings against that tech. It also opens up counter-attack opportunities for your opponent if you lose an engagement since corruptor -> brood reload time is so long. Their one-dimensionalness also balances out the fact that they can dominate the air war (when appropriately massed) by giving your opponent an opportunity to punish you if you over-commit.
EPT
Back when we all were newbies..
