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On September 07 2012 21:55 Herect wrote:
Warhound - You understimate how mech sucks against mass Immortal. It's just a-move by the Protoss and they still be ridiculous cost-effective. The Warhound adress that, and if you do not adress that, Tank play isn't viable in the Matchup at all.
Tempest - I'm just seeing a lot of Carrier nostalgia here. The tempest requires good positionting, good target fire, vision management, adress late game Protoss stalemates, and just isn't a lame addition to the Deathball. It's better in all senses. Do you have anything like that for the Carriers? In the best case, they will be micro intensive. And still, I can't see they working with SC2 mechanics. Against Bio terran they'll still be useless. Agains mech or they will roflstomp, or they will be useless. There isn't a sweet spot.
Oracle - People need to figure out it yet. It's a unit that have awesome potential. It's a scout/vision management unit with worker friendly harass,. And it's not just dumb as the Observer (i put one here, i can see everything, and i hope that my enemy just don't see it XP). Entomb seems a boring spell, but i still prefer that instead of a raider thta kill everything on my mineral line before i can do anything.
No problem with making mech viable in TvP, but the Warhound sure is not the way to go. As pointed out so often before its just not a mech unit.
Tempest is basically THE stalemate unit. It actually encourages turtleplay a lot if you support it with some cannons and other support. There is no way to attack in a defensive position which has a 22 range unit there.. Dimaga played one game where Protoss just turtled on some bases and he couldn't do a thing. He later left that very long game because he ran out of gas to do anything.
Not a huge problem with the Oracle, but imho at least one spell has to be changed to make it a little more interesting.
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On September 07 2012 23:48 Brahoono wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 21:55 Herect wrote:
Warhound - You understimate how mech sucks against mass Immortal. It's just a-move by the Protoss and they still be ridiculous cost-effective. The Warhound adress that, and if you do not adress that, Tank play isn't viable in the Matchup at all.
Tempest - I'm just seeing a lot of Carrier nostalgia here. The tempest requires good positionting, good target fire, vision management, adress late game Protoss stalemates, and just isn't a lame addition to the Deathball. It's better in all senses. Do you have anything like that for the Carriers? In the best case, they will be micro intensive. And still, I can't see they working with SC2 mechanics. Against Bio terran they'll still be useless. Agains mech or they will roflstomp, or they will be useless. There isn't a sweet spot.
Oracle - People need to figure out it yet. It's a unit that have awesome potential. It's a scout/vision management unit with worker friendly harass,. And it's not just dumb as the Observer (i put one here, i can see everything, and i hope that my enemy just don't see it XP). Entomb seems a boring spell, but i still prefer that instead of a raider thta kill everything on my mineral line before i can do anything. No problem with making mech viable in TvP, but the Warhound sure is not the way to go. As pointed out so often before its just not a mech unit. Tempest is basically THE stalemate unit. It actually encourages turtleplay a lot if you support it with some cannons and other support. There is no way to attack in a defensive position which has a 22 range unit there.. Dimaga played one game where Protoss just turtled on some bases and he couldn't do a thing. He later left that very long game because he ran out of gas to do anything. Not a huge problem with the Oracle, but imho at least one spell has to be changed to make it a little more interesting.
Tempest doesn't have the DPS and the "unforgiving felling" to be Stalemate Unit. Even if the range is huge. they don't control space because their attack is just a poke. It's not like an Bl/Infestor that one missclick make your army melt to Bloodlings/Chain fungals.
Not giving terran a unit similar to the Warhound would imply a total rework of the Immortal. Its just not fair Protoss having a unit a-move friendly while Terran didn't have the same easy time. And reworking the immortal would mean a total revolution in the Matchups. Blizz didn't want to change too much the WoL Metagame (you can see that in their changes, most new units are in Tier "2.5"/3, exceptions are the Warhound and the Mommacore, and they didn't touch any of the most stabilished units (almost all underused units like Hydras, BCs received changes, with ultras being another exception)). Otherwise, HotS would be a new game instead of just a expansion.
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The problem with the warhound is that immortals still beat it... It is basically more of a counter to stalkers than anything, which it melts stupidly fast.
Seems to me like if they want a mech unit that counters the immortal it should have an attack the slighty outranges it and has low damage- high attack speed, so it doesn't completely destroy every other unit toss has in a-move fashion. This way you can take out its shields and kite back towards your tank line, which will then do full damage shots on the immortals
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On September 06 2012 18:40 kaokentake wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 18:34 forsooth wrote:
Remove warhound, buff tank damage to 60 flat.
Mech is now awesome. 60 to armored im ok with not ok with 60 to zealots
There's no reason why light units should not be blasted to bits by tank shells.
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On September 07 2012 03:43 kaokentake wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 02:12 wcr.4fun wrote:
I think you were pretty high when you said the match ups reflect the way brood war was played lol. Zerg turtling up till they have an unstoppable deathball (and a wall of moveable 'static' defenses vs toss) to win in the endgame? Or ultra- or roachfest in zvz? Zerg's matchups don't reflect the way bw was played at all.
TvP isn't based around mech play in WOL either and PVP in bw wasn't war of the worlds? TvZ in BW is heavily about terran trying to use timings to punish a zerg whos ultimately going for his hive doom army PvZ is largely the same thing
Zerg didn't have a doom army in BW.
In ZvP Protoss could Archon/HT/Reaver, which at 200/200 was unbeatable for Zerg. Terran if allowed to Mech and cut the map in half was also equally unbeatable. And ZvT against bio was based on Zerg keeping the Terran SV cloud as small as possible.
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I think it's actually important for mech in TvP that there is a unit that trades well with stalkers and immortals. Battle hellions and mines simply aren't enough. It'd be too easy to move your stalkers and immortals around to decimate mech without a warhound type unit.
People will complain about the warhound even after it is balanced, just like they still do today with the roach and marauder. It's not good game design to have a massable, tier 1 unit as fast and versatile as the stalker (it can hit air, too) not be well-countered by a few units. Trading well with it in making mech is what will make the mech viable.
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Mech in TvP has always been strong, its weakness is it is relatively immobile.
I would recommend watching this
http://day9.tv/d/Day9/day9-daily-396-terran-week-mech-in-tvp/
Then realise, the new units make it even stronger, aswell as a lot more mobile. If warhounds beat immortals what does protoss do? there are then no ground units that could do well against it.
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So much hate on the Tempest. It's funny because if half on my HOTS games people try massing them and cry when I mass corrupters. The Tempest is not meant to be massed. I would say around 4 is optimal. The function is to control brood lord/infestor pushes and seige/thor lines. That is it. They are not a unit to be massed or change the game, they are for map control that is it.
The warhound is iffy. I don't mind it to much when playing with it but again I really think they are not meant to be massed. I like to mix it into a bio army or make equal amounts of BH and Warhounds. With mech it is crucial you have starports now.
Most people in here are not even in the beta or in a position to make these rediculous assumptions. Wait a few months while the game tweaks and is released. Right now it is chaos, people massing tempest and warhounds and expecting to win. It is really silly.
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lol, people dont understand that the tempest is a siege unit (like the carrier that people fail to understand how to use) and should not be massed or put into a ball of units.
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On September 08 2012 03:01 LgNKami wrote:
lol, people dont understand that the tempest is a siege unit (like the carrier that people fail to understand how to use) and should not be massed or put into a ball of units.
That's all fine until that expensive Tempest siege group you made gets annihilated by a group of 10 Corrupters/Vikings that didn't take the Zerg/Terran very long to make given the way Larva/Reactors work.
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On September 08 2012 02:07 village_idiot wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 03:43 kaokentake wrote:On September 07 2012 02:12 wcr.4fun wrote:
I think you were pretty high when you said the match ups reflect the way brood war was played lol. Zerg turtling up till they have an unstoppable deathball (and a wall of moveable 'static' defenses vs toss) to win in the endgame? Or ultra- or roachfest in zvz? Zerg's matchups don't reflect the way bw was played at all.
TvP isn't based around mech play in WOL either and PVP in bw wasn't war of the worlds? TvZ in BW is heavily about terran trying to use timings to punish a zerg whos ultimately going for his hive doom army PvZ is largely the same thing Zerg didn't have a doom army in BW. In ZvP Protoss could Archon/HT/Reaver, which at 200/200 was unbeatable for Zerg. Terran if allowed to Mech and cut the map in half was also equally unbeatable. And ZvT against bio was based on Zerg keeping the Terran SV cloud as small as possible.
zergs doom army was their superior economy/production
toss/terran had to pressure in some way to stop the doom scenario from happening and the zerg just rolling them over
not pressuring a zerg meant death to a doom army
zerg not pressuring a terran/toss (with them not pressuring him back) meant victory with a doom army
whoever had the unbeatable 200 food army doesnt matter because alot of it meant if you could get that army. zerg could get theirs so well that you needed to pressure and stop it
by "doom army", i simply meant zerg was the "race that needed to be pressured before he became unstoppable"
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On September 08 2012 02:07 village_idiot wrote:
Zerg didn't have a doom army in BW.
Tell that to july ![[image loading]](http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/906/rovjulyrockay4.gif)
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On September 08 2012 03:01 LgNKami wrote:
lol, people dont understand that the tempest is a siege unit (like the carrier that people fail to understand how to use) and should not be massed or put into a ball of units.
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That's all fine until that expensive Tempest siege group you made gets annihilated by a group of 10 Corrupters/Vikings that didn't take the Zerg/Terran very long to make given the way Larva/Reactors work.
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If your a low level player and let your expensive Tempest siege group, siege without your army. You get 4 and protect them while you work your way towards their base. They are meant to punish players who do not react to them properly. Any more than 5ish is a waste because you can't count on their damage in a battle. But if you harass them properly you can even the battle out before it happens.
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[QUOTE]On September 06 2012 11:36 kaokentake wrote:
I have an idea for the oracle, what about a "empowered shield" ability for the oracle, for 100 energy when casted on a unit improves its shield strength by 100 extra, max of 200 extra, and when the extra shields are destroyed the unit doesnt get them back (it still has normal shields the extra is just extra from the spell). Then make units glow sort of blue-ish or something so you know it has extra shields. So this spell could be casted on collossi or carriers to make them stronger but its a very weak spell (100 energy for 100 life/shields, which is weak compared to fungals 75 energy to deal 250+ damage)
QUOTE]
I agree with the OP whole heartedly, we could change the "useless" spells on the Oracle. I suggest one that Damages a biological unit and adjacent biological units, dealing 250 damage over 25 seconds. We could call it "irradiate"
Furthermore we could make it a detector unit too
Can I get a nerd high five for the science vessal joke?
<cricket, cricket>
Anyone?
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On September 08 2012 01:20 Visage814 wrote:
The problem with the warhound is that immortals still beat it... It is basically more of a counter to stalkers than anything, which it melts stupidly fast.
Seems to me like if they want a mech unit that counters the immortal it should have an attack the slighty outranges it and has low damage- high attack speed, so it doesn't completely destroy every other unit toss has in a-move fashion. This way you can take out its shields and kite back towards your tank line, which will then do full damage shots on the immortals
Um. Maybe in very very small groups. The longer the fight goes the more it tilts in the warhounds favor. This has been shown. Between it having two attack to drop the shield. It having a longer range. It moving faster. And haywire having an even longer range than the autoattack.
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On September 06 2012 20:08 Evangelist wrote:
The only reason there's some much crap about the Tempest is they replaced a unit that's been completely useless since the beginning (carrier) with something that actually solves problems. The Tempest is a fantastic idea - it basically forces engagements on the terms of the toss by sniping off broodlords/infestors. It provides an immediate threat that must be dealt with.
Tempests will make the matchup more dynamic, as you will see more flanking, more corruptor movement and stalker/archon/corruptor battles as toss try and protect their tempests from corruptors. Hell they'll probably force hydras to be included, thus breaking up the deathball even more.
They will become standard in late game ZvP.
+1
I love the tempest. Great unit.
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EPT
