Viper? At first i hated the unit because its worthless, but now i LIKE the unit because its worthless.
In my opinion i think we dont want too many drastic changes to the matchups as I believe, since WoL has many more units at release than SC1 did, in its essence WoL has almost as much racial diversity as BW (as most of WoL's unit designs came from BW). The non-mirror matchups in starcraft 2 are currently "feeling" very similar to the way they felt in BW (and battle hellions should bring TvP more in line with feeling like BW)
TvZ in BW is heavily about terran trying to use timings to punish a zerg whos ultimately going for his hive doom army
PvZ is largely the same thing
TvP in WoL is the matchup the most unlike its BW matchup, however if you consider the roles flipped then its like BW because in BW the protoss had army/units that were very strong in small numbers (now terran is like this) and the protoss did harassment fights all over the map trying to attack the terran where his doom army wasnt while the terran was trying to turtle to his doom army
I dont want too much crap being added that just ruins the matchups, and ruins the BW feel that does exist. Theres tons of generic RTS's out there, starcraft shouldnt try to "get away" from feeling like BW or it will just be boring and unfun to watch. The viper is a example of a good unit because its worthless, does pretty much nothing, so it wont ruin the game too much.
The viper will serve only two very small and niche roles, cloud against pure-mass terran bio, and the abduct ability against a protoss relying on turtling with collossi. Pretty much the way devourers were never seen in BW because they only were good to counter carriers and BC's, vipers should be almost never-seen unless the zerg really needs one of these 2 roles fulfilled.
And honestly those 2 roles "feel" zergish so im okay with the viper as a unit.
Pretty much a zerg should almost never want to make a viper (infestors are more powerful) but if a terrans massing pure bio, or if a protoss is camping behind cannons with some collossi in there, then 2-3 vipers could be a good addition to your army. Overall, I think the unit is fine and feels zergish.
The radius of the cloud seems way too small however. Buff its radius.
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The oracle? sort of like the above, at first i hated this unit because its worthless, but now i like it because its worthless as i realized I dont want too many unit additions ruining the way the current matchups "feel" as I think they still are pretty darn close to BW.
Adding some new combat units is ok, but the warhound is a horrible example of how to add a combat unit to this game. Many combat units already fulfill the small amount of roles that could exist, and adding in a bland thing like the warhound that overlaps too much with everything else just feels dumb.
Back to the oracle. A problem with the oracle is its vision ability is very weak (low range) seems to have a low duration and is used in conjunction with the tempest, but i feel the tempest needs to be removed. So remove the oracles vision-ability and cloaking field and give the oracle 2 new spells, one super worthless (like the vipers building damage spell), and one sort of worthless (like the vipers cloud).
I have an idea for the oracle, what about a "empowered shield" ability for the oracle, for 100 energy when casted on a unit improves its shield strength by 100 extra, max of 200 extra, and when the extra shields are destroyed the unit doesnt get them back (it still has normal shields the extra is just extra from the spell). Then make units glow sort of blue-ish or something so you know it has extra shields. So this spell could be casted on collossi or carriers to make them stronger but its a very weak spell (100 energy for 100 life/shields, which is weak compared to fungals 75 energy to deal 250+ damage)
I also believe the cloaking field should be removed and returned to the mothership. Giving mothersihp air stasis, ground vortex, recall, and cloaking field seems fine. The oracle with the cloaking field seems dumb.
As for the third spell of the oracle, I have an idea to turn the vision spell into an actual useful spell. \
Right now, the vision spell of the oracle serves as nothing more than tempest support. But I believe the tempest is retarded and should be removed, and thus with no tempest the oracles vision spell is worthless. But What about making the vision spell of the oracle have, say, 30 sight-range (but make the spell have a low cast-range making the oracle in danger when casting it), and it can only target buildings, and it costs 200 energy and lasts forever, and the building with it on glows bright-green letting the enemy know its there. So for 200 energy and the cost of a oracle the protoss can cast it on your command center and basically go "boom baby i just nuked your base with my maphackz. it costed me 200 energy and was expensive, but now i see 100% of your army movement around your base and i know if your not there then you must be attacking me". So this spell seems powerful, but not too OP as it costs 200 energy and a expensive oracle and you must risk the oracle to use the spell.
A terran could spend 1800 on 4 orbitals for a few scans a minute that provides the same benefit at a increased cost but doesnt require risking an oracles life to perform. So the oracle method is MUCH cheaper than 4 orbitals, but might never work if the enemy keeps killing your oracle because it can cast the spell.
I think that is a great spell idea. So that can serve as the oracles 3 spells. So the oracle spells could be something like entombed, the above vision idea, and the empowered shields (or something else that blizzard comes up with. But I believe the spells of these new casters should be weak as fungal/storm/HSM is already so strong)
Entombed is like a reverse-mule. It does no damage to your units but it reduces the rate at which you mine. Keeping a few marines in the mineral line should deal with it ok but honestly I think it lasts a bit too long maybe make it last only 30 seconds.
EDIT: many people think my vision spell is imbalanced. I contest it very well probably is, however all im saying is the oracle has some useless spells right now and if the tempest is removed then the oracle should have its useless spells replaced with something good. The oracles "scan" to not die to cloaked units is fine IMO but the preordaine ability is only useful with tempests. _________________________________________________
The tempest? Im sorry but this units "purpose" does not need to exist, and should not exist for protoss.
The design of the tempest is to have longrange thus forcing engagements or slowly damaging your enemy. Sorry but that just does not belong on protoss. It doesnt belong in the game at all, but if it did it would belong on terran, but terran already has a unit that is designed to serve that role (siege tank). This means the tempest should just be removed, or redesigned and given a new role.
The role of "longrange unit, if your enemy is turtling you use it to force him out with its longrange" is a role that protoss unit does not need. Protoss does not need it, remove it. Bring back the carrier, give it 90 second buildtime (and give BC's 75 while ur at it), allow it to attack while moving (allowing it to kite BC's and moveshot bases like in bw). Make the attack-while-moving ability of the carrier a toggled ability, meaning the protoss can turn it on or off (as theres some moments like sieging a base and getting into position where you dont want your carriers to fire all their interceptors into turrets and marines)
Boom youve got a great unit. Carriers are never seen now BECAUSE mech sucks. With battle hellions making mech good, carriers will see new play. Carriers are ALREADY the standard lategame PvZ unit, why the fuck remove it? Stop it Dustin, keep carriers in, When your entire design team is telling you you're wrong, you're wrong.
When battlecruisers were first introduced they had HORRENDOUS movement speed which was actually balanced because they were so much stronger than carriers but carriers could kite them. When BC's were buffed to have movement speed higher, it really through out of whack carriers perceived balance compared to BC's because carriers can no longer kite BC's (yes every 2 BC's can yamato and instantly 1shot a carrier, and BC's do counter carriers, but they didnt counter them as-hard when they were kite-able, and with templars to feedback/storm the BC's you had a shot)
EDIT: It seems many protoss here feel that tempests are needed to combat infestor/broodlord.
I feel thats incorrect. I think one problem that does exist however is that carriers received a "nerf" in patch 1.5 where the interceptors clump up alot more now, making 1fungal hit almost all the interceptors.
I think carriers would be a better counter to infestor/broodlords if fungal was changed to no longer work against interceptors.
How about just make interceptors immune to spells, boom I think thats perfect and thats all thats needed. So thor splash still works against interceptors, but spells (hsm/storm/fungal) do nothing to interceptors.
You can still chain fungal on the carriers and kill them with corrupters or launch 50 infested terrans and fungal the carriers, you just cannot chain fungal the interceptors anymore and kill 80% of the interceptors with 2 fungals.
If interceptors were buffed to be immune to spells, it would fix alot of stuff in lategame PvZ (combined with letting carriers attack while moving, and reducing buildtime by a bit). Right now I feel most zergs are starting to abuse fungal vs interceptors when the toss reponds with carriers, and it does seem a little too good.
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Warhound? Warhounds "fix" a problem (tank stalemate TvT) that does not exist.
Warhounds werent needed in TvP because the problem with TvP mech was there was no real viable tanking unit for the tanks (like mines in bw) to contest zealots. And the battle hellions solve that. With the introduction of battle hellions (which is essentially a entirely new unit, a mineral-only high-hp unit to soak damage for your tanks) mech should be fixed in TvP and warhounds are not needed.
Not only that, blizzard even added mines? i was against the mines at first thinking it didnt really need to exist and was just giving some free AoE dps on top of tanks for no reason. But now that their damage is alot weaker I think im slightly starting to like them. Make mines no longer target air units IMO, and I think they are a nice addition.
Warhounds are nothing more than a glorified roach/marauder with no reason to exist. Mech doesnt need something like warhound anymore in TvP, and in TvT its pointless. Its just a super buff marauder. It overlaps in role of the marauder, and its anti-mech missiles are a game-design void of purpose. It doesnt need to exist, terran doesnt need a anti-mech "unit" to slaughter the protoss race which is all mech. It forces protoss to get archon/chargelot with 100% of their minerals/gas in order to "avoid" the anti-mech missiles.
The warhound as a unit cannot be balanced to have combat stats allowing it to be use-able against zerg, while at the same time having free anti-mech missiles. This means the unit would be balanced to have strong stats, and then free missiles on top of it? making it overpowered against protoss. Or on the flip side, if the warhounds were balanced to be not overpowered against protoss with the missiles, then they would be underpowered against zerg with reduced stats and no missiles.
Either way the warhound cannot exist with its current design. One option could be to make the warhound missiles a transformation like the hellion where the user clicks the missiles to arm them, and then once armed with the missiles the warhound will have reduced strength in combat, but improved strength against mech with its missiles activated, making the unit balanced against protoss. And then the terran could de-activate his missiles against zerg since the missiles are useless against zerg.
Or the second option is to just remove the warhound and replace it with a better designed unit actually fitting a role that seems "terran-ish" or at least a role that seems "exciting to watch as an esport". Sure I guess the marauder is exciting in my eyes and i guess the role of the warhound which overlaps the marauder "can" in some ways be exciting. But it does a really bad job of it. In my opinion the marauder already fills the role of the warhound in a more exciting way, so sorry, but the warhound needs to be axed (or completely redesigned).
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Swarm host?
I think this is a good unit because terran and protoss now have much stronger anti-zergling options in the form of battle hellion AND the powerful midgame presence of the mothership core allowing the protoss to more safely and greedily macro up and get to collossus faster and safer so protoss will have more collossi.
This means the strength of zerglings has gone down dramatically (still useful, but, other races were given large options against it. zerglings are now heavily super early unit, and a lategame swarm option after most of your enemies battle hellions and collossi have been destroyed by roaches+fungal+swarmhosts)
So zerg needs the swarm hosts now because in WoL zergs could swarm in and suicide armies of lings and be okay, but with terrans battle hellions and tosses mothership core (allowing a strong midgame presence, so faster/stronger collossi) the suicide armies of lings will be much less potent
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And finally the mothership core. A first i hated it, but now I love it because its an actual unit and serves as protosses "new combat unit".
The mothership core fixes everything toss needed. Protoss has plenty lategame power units (collossi, immortal, voidrays, carrier, mothership, storms, archons) and felt like the midgame had something to be desired. Now the mothership core fits in there perfectly.
The mothership core will be used as a offensive unit more than a defensive unit. It flies, comes fast, and is extremely powerful. I expect protosses to build a mothership core after their cyber, attack terran/zerg with it, let it die (killing many marines or queens in the process), then build another and attack with your main army plus another core. The mothership core is very powerful in cost/strength but you can only build one of them and it will be used in the army (until ultimately lategame its replaced by mothership)
The mothership core seems like a good unit added to protoss that fits-in well like the battle hellion fits-in well. I think the mothership core is serving well as the "new protoss unit".
The mothership core moves extremely slow, but it is cheap and you can actually attack a enemy with it pretty quickly at about 8 minutes if you fly it to your enemies base after getting it at a normal time. A offensive mothership core is almost as powerful as a flying collossi, but comes alot faster, at 8 minutes, but moves super slow, and I honestly dont think its imbalanced as queens/marines both deal with it very well and it serves as a mid-game strength unit that protoss seemed to be lacking.
But toss can only spend their money on 1 mothership core, while terran/zerg can spend all their money on bio/roaches, so protoss gets to have this one powerful midgame unit, but only one of them, then the rest of protoss money is spent getting to their endgame goodies.
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Reapers. I feel the reapers are going in the wrong direction. Reapers could be a strong harassment unit but they dont need the regeneration because medivacs exist, let them keep their speed as i think the speed has been removed).
The problem with reapers is their buildtime. The days of 3range queens and 3range roaches are over, zerg no longer is worried about reapers, so the buildtime of reapers should be changed to like 20 seconds. Yes, 20 seconds, you heard me. Marauders are 30 seconds with a techlab, I feel 15-20 seconds for a reaper buildtime with a techlab is completely fine given the fact that marauders are 30 seconds for 2food, why 15 seconds for 1food seems fine.
Also, reapers can serve as a great harassment unit with this improved buildtime (which means less barracks are needed for reaper production). With speed and the improved buildtime, reapers could be a great addition to lategame bio with upgrades being fast and strong and they dont need the health regeneration lategame due to medivacs.
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So far with my above ideas (remove warhound, remove tempest, allow carrier to attack while moving, change oracles useless spells) I think that is the direction hots should go.
Looking at my above ideas it would produce the following changes
Terran has mines and battle hellions added. Honesty, I think thats fine, stop there, add nothing more to terran. Remember battle hellions are essentially completely new combat unit, like a powerful zealot you can add to your mech army to tank for your tanks. Then terran gets mines instead of a semi-worthless caster. I dont think "mech" needs more anti-air then the thor since the viking is also there as an anti-air option. The thor is a fine anti-air unit that fits more in line with how mech should be than the goliath. The thor with +3 upgrades and some viking/hellion support should do just fine against broodlords (heck, marineking won a game lastnite against a similar supply broodlord army using thors. We saw MVP at IEM crushing zerg broodlord armies with thor timing attacks when the zerg cant have 10+ broods. When the supply count of broodlords/thors is less than 50 and both have backup support, thors do well against broods. And when the supply count of broodlords is over 70, then you better best damn have some HSM's and vikings and possibly BC's)
Protoss has mothership core and oracle added. That seems fine to. Add nothing more.
Zerg has viper added swarm host added.
The above seems perfect. Basically Im the jist of my write-up is I think the warhound and tempest are complete Dustin Browder C&C units that dont belong in starcraft and their design and purpose is shit and they shouldnt exist. It will only make the game worse.
With the above plan I propose, each race gets 2 new units, and the balance seems pretty well. Then in LOTV each race can each receive 1 new amazing pure-combat unit (no lame spellcasters) that are hopefully better designed than the warhound/tempest and actually fit a good role that feels well within its race.
Whatever blizzard does I hope it works. I know i come off as egotistical in this thread most likely but im sorry, I guess you cant write a huge analysis thread like this without throwing your own ideas in there.
Thank you for your post. I think you propose several changes that would be positive. Concerning the warhound, I think there are a many different things the warhound could be converted into. Right now, the unit is awful, for all the reasons you stated. I have a few ideas, and I'm sure the community will be able to propose others as well.
1) The Warhound as a necessary first stage for the Thor, in a similar vein as a high templar or dark templar is for an archon. The Warhound would be a factory unit and not require a tech lab, and it would have a ground attack and anti-air attack. It would be weaker than the Thor, but smaller and more mobile. Then, after getting an armory, you then get the ability to convert 2 warhounds into a Thor. In this vision, the Thor would need to be buffed in some way to make this conversion worth it, perhaps giving its cannon upgrade an AOE effect and stun effect so it is actually useful against collossi and ultralisks.
2) The Warhound as a sort of kamikaze self-destruction unit. This warhound has 2 abilities. First, it has an ability that causes it to instantly explode, dealing aoe damage all around it. Second, it has a harpoon ability which can only target an air target. The harpoon latches onto the air unit, pulling the warhound up to the air unit, dealing a significant amount of damage to the air unit and all ground units below it. I suppose you could modify the unit to where it has the harpoon ability and also a basic ground attack (and remove the instant self-destruct ability). This warhound would never be an integral core of a standard unit composition, but would have its uses in the late game, especially against Terran (Vikings) and Zerg (broodlords/corruptors). It also requires some micro on the user's end, and requires some reactionary micro on the opponents end, which is a plus in my book.
actually, you are incorrect about the reason for the vision on oracle.
it's not for tempest at all. It's so you don't auto lose to cloak banshee or DT if you open stargate. That's all. In WoL if you open stargate you build order lose to stealth tech.
For oracle vision you can either poke with phoenix, or hallu phoenix, or obs, or suicide a probe, or any number of options to get tempest the vision they need.
I think most people agree that the tempest is stupid. Even with range, it's supply vs damage ratio is too poor, meaning for them to be a credible threat their critical mass requires too much army supply. So the opponent either ignores them, or just 1A's your army and kills you. They are BL's that lack the ability to actually hurt anything. If their damage is increased or supply cost lowered protoss will get enough to do serious damage and cannon creep accross the map similar to spines and broods. I simply cannot see this unit working out.
Tempest and Warhounds need to die. Absolutely worthless.
Tempest is just lazy. As a unit it doesn't make any sense. It just seems like they didn't want to balance Carriers and made this unit. They had this insane idea (remember pre beta Tempest that blew up muta clouds in a few hits?) that didn't pan out but instead of admitting fault and redoing something they're trying to reuse as much of the Tempest resource? I dunno. Maybe the guy who designed the unit or rendered the model or something is like Browder's cousin or something.
Warhound thing has been pounded into the ground. That unit is already in the game under a different name. And a Factory unit that makes other factory units that makes mech unviable? wtf?!
Oracles seem a little.... I dunno. gimmicky too. I guess it's so you have a stronger presence with a stargate opening but I thought that's what Phoenix openings were for.
Some of your ideas in the article sounded a little weird, but by the time I had finished reading it I actually think all the changes you represent together are perfect. It's amazing how much of a consensus there is on the warhound, there is no way they will leave that unit as it is (hopefully they won't even leave it in).
I really feel like all of this is Blizzard not being able to just admit they were wrong. It's totally okay to just go backwards a couple steps. The process of continuously changing things and trying to implement new ideas instead of fixing old ones isn't working out.
Warhounds werent needed in TvP because the problem with TvP mech was there was no real viable tanking unit for the tanks (like mines in bw) to contest zealots. And the battle hellions solve that. With the introduction of battle hellions (which is essentially a entirely new unit, a mineral-only high-hp unit to soak damage for your tanks) mech should be fixed in TvP and warhounds are not needed.
No no no. Zealots are not the problem in Mech TvP. The immortal is.
The immortal alone can rip through a massive tank army with thor support and it's stupid as hell.
Warhounds werent needed in TvP because the problem with TvP mech was there was no real viable tanking unit for the tanks (like mines in bw) to contest zealots. And the battle hellions solve that. With the introduction of battle hellions (which is essentially a entirely new unit, a mineral-only high-hp unit to soak damage for your tanks) mech should be fixed in TvP and warhounds are not needed.
No no no. Zealots are not the problem in Mech TvP. The immortal is.
The immortal alone can rip through a massive tank army with thor support and it's stupid as hell.
I said "to contest zealots" which means you need a damage soaking unit thats "contesting" the damage soaking power of zealots.
Old hellions couldnt do that
New hellions can do that
now that new hellions contest zealots in the strength of tanking damage for the big power units (zealots tanking for immortal/collossi, hellions tanking for tanks/thors) mech would be viable now.
I tested it in the ohana map and mech without warhounds but WITH the new battle hellions shreds any combination of immortals/collossi (or even mass immortals) you want to throw at it, in equal cost/food armies
On September 06 2012 19:24 Evangelist wrote: You've got to be utterly stupid not to see the reason why the Tempest is in the game. What's the main problem with Toss at the moment?
Could it possibly be massive colossus/broodlord standoffs that are only resolved using either an A move onto another deathball or an archon toilet?
Voila. Tempest solves those problems.
The tempest adds more dumb to the clusterfuck of dumb that is PvZ lategame. It's not an optimal solution by any means.
On September 06 2012 19:24 Evangelist wrote: You've got to be utterly stupid not to see the reason why the Tempest is in the game. What's the main problem with Toss at the moment?
Could it possibly be massive colossus/broodlord standoffs that are only resolved using either an A move onto another deathball or an archon toilet?
Voila. Tempest solves those problems.
broodlords are the counter to collossi and should be strong against them. mothership/carrier/voidray/storm counters the lategame zerg broodlord/infestor based army nicely its a fine back and forth relationship
the tempest is just completely stupid and doesnt belong in the matchup. letting carrier attack while moving would help alot too.
On September 06 2012 19:24 Evangelist wrote: You've got to be utterly stupid not to see the reason why the Tempest is in the game. What's the main problem with Toss at the moment?
Could it possibly be massive colossus/broodlord standoffs that are only resolved using either an A move onto another deathball or an archon toilet?
Voila. Tempest solves those problems.
broodlords are the counter to collossi and should be strong against them. mothership/carrier/voidray/storm counters the lategame zerg broodlord/infestor based army nicely its a fine back and forth relationship
the tempest is just completely stupid and doesnt belong in the matchup. letting carrier attack while moving would help alot too.
Back and forth relationship? Are you watching the same ZvPs I am? Either the protoss wins with that battle or the zerg, there's no back and forth when the armies are so slow.
On September 06 2012 19:24 Evangelist wrote: You've got to be utterly stupid not to see the reason why the Tempest is in the game. What's the main problem with Toss at the moment?
Could it possibly be massive colossus/broodlord standoffs that are only resolved using either an A move onto another deathball or an archon toilet?
Voila. Tempest solves those problems.
broodlords are the counter to collossi and should be strong against them. mothership/carrier/voidray/storm counters the lategame zerg broodlord/infestor based army nicely its a fine back and forth relationship
the tempest is just completely stupid and doesnt belong in the matchup. letting carrier attack while moving would help alot too.
Back and forth relationship? Are you watching the same ZvPs I am? Either the protoss wins with that battle or the zerg, there's no back and forth when the armies are so slow.
Ive seen lategame PvZ's where theres multiple army trades of broodlord/infestor deathball vs carrier/collossi/stalker/mothership/storm deathball. Cant remember the players off the top of my head, but archon toilets are essentially a non-issue as long as the zerg splits his units. Fungal and vortex will both own you if you dont split. Deathballs exist in every non-mirror and you cannot get rid of it with the tempest.
The only reason there's some much crap about the Tempest is they replaced a unit that's been completely useless since the beginning (carrier) with something that actually solves problems. The Tempest is a fantastic idea - it basically forces engagements on the terms of the toss by sniping off broodlords/infestors. It provides an immediate threat that must be dealt with.
Tempests will make the matchup more dynamic, as you will see more flanking, more corruptor movement and stalker/archon/corruptor battles as toss try and protect their tempests from corruptors. Hell they'll probably force hydras to be included, thus breaking up the deathball even more.
This would be so completly overpowered. For example, let's have a look at what would change in tanks vs ling/bling: From 17 (or 18)damage per shot, to 30 in the 50% area; with +6/upgrades, +3tanks would oneshoot zerglings/banelings even in the 50%area From 8 (or 9) damage per shot, to 15 in the 25% area;
Marines, lings/blings would all just become unviable over night.
This would be so completly overpowered. For example, let's have a look at what would change in tanks vs ling/bling: From 17 (or 18)damage per shot, to 30 in the 50% area; with +6/upgrades, +3tanks would oneshoot zerglings/banelings even in the 50%area From 8 (or 9) damage per shot, to 15 in the 25% area;
Marines, lings/blings would all just become unviable over night.
Atleast tanks would actually be able to control space again in lower numbers. Just add overkill back on tanks and it'd be fine.
This would be so completly overpowered. For example, let's have a look at what would change in tanks vs ling/bling: From 17 (or 18)damage per shot, to 30 in the 50% area; with +6/upgrades, +3tanks would oneshoot zerglings/banelings even in the 50%area From 8 (or 9) damage per shot, to 15 in the 25% area;
Marines, lings/blings would all just become unviable over night.
You can keep the dmg from splash the same and just buff the dmg done to the unit that is being targeted. Kind of like widow mines.
This would be so completly overpowered. For example, let's have a look at what would change in tanks vs ling/bling: From 17 (or 18)damage per shot, to 30 in the 50% area; with +6/upgrades, +3tanks would oneshoot zerglings/banelings even in the 50%area From 8 (or 9) damage per shot, to 15 in the 25% area;
Marines, lings/blings would all just become unviable over night.
You can keep the dmg from splash the same and just buff the dmg done to the unit that is being targeted. Kind of like widow mines.
So like main target 100% 100% radius-->50% 50%radius-->25% 25%radius-->15%
not sure if this would really change a lot. Siege tanks are living from the splash they do, buffing it's damage vs one of the 5 zealots that are in the 100% area would be nice, but in the end probably still useless.
This would be so completly overpowered. For example, let's have a look at what would change in tanks vs ling/bling: From 17 (or 18)damage per shot, to 30 in the 50% area; with +6/upgrades, +3tanks would oneshoot zerglings/banelings even in the 50%area From 8 (or 9) damage per shot, to 15 in the 25% area;
Marines, lings/blings would all just become unviable over night.
You can keep the dmg from splash the same and just buff the dmg done to the unit that is being targeted. Kind of like widow mines.
So like main target 100% 100% radius-->50% 50%radius-->25% 25%radius-->15%
not sure if this would really change a lot. Siege tanks are living from the splash they do, buffing it's damage vs one of the 5 zealots that are in the 100% area would be nice, but in the end probably still useless.
The splash is fine IMO, thats why they are good against low hp units (ling, banelings etc). The relatively low dmg to the main target is what makes them bad against Protoss, Zealots, Archons, Colossus, Imortals...to many units that take to many direct shots to kill.
With more dmg done to the main target, small units like lings, marines, banelings, workers,etc, would be almost unafected (is this a word? :p )
This would be so completly overpowered. For example, let's have a look at what would change in tanks vs ling/bling: From 17 (or 18)damage per shot, to 30 in the 50% area; with +6/upgrades, +3tanks would oneshoot zerglings/banelings even in the 50%area From 8 (or 9) damage per shot, to 15 in the 25% area;
Marines, lings/blings would all just become unviable over night.
You can keep the dmg from splash the same and just buff the dmg done to the unit that is being targeted. Kind of like widow mines.
So like main target 100% 100% radius-->50% 50%radius-->25% 25%radius-->15%
not sure if this would really change a lot. Siege tanks are living from the splash they do, buffing it's damage vs one of the 5 zealots that are in the 100% area would be nice, but in the end probably still useless.
The splash is fine IMO, thats why they are good against low hp units (ling, banelings etc). The relatively low dmg to the main target is what makes them bad against Protoss, Zealots, Archons, Colossus, Imortals...to many units that take to many direct shots to kill.
With more dmg done to the main target, small units like lings, marines, banelings, workers,etc, would be almost unafected (is this a word? :p )
Well, in that case I'd say the better way to do it, would be just to buff vs armored from +15(+2) to +25(+3); so 60 vs armored. Vs Zealots, I think battle hellions are the better solution than changing tanks.
Edit: Sorry, forgot Archons. Probably just make it +25 vs armored/massive. or +15 vs armored, +25 vs massive. or +25 vs armored, +15 vs massive. Something along those lines
Blinding cloud is basically only zvz (all terrans go mech). It would be nice if it worked on non-bio. I can be balanced with energy/radius/duration. So i don't think it would be problem. Also would be a spell to break deathballs -> big plus there.
Hydra speed on hive is way too late. Too late for any timing with such squishy and expensive units. But maybe roach/hydra will be used in zvt :D.
Ultra burrow charge also takes long time and is expensive. With no autocast one may wonder if it's worth at all.
Swarm Host doesn't seem to enable zerg to pressure as much. But maybe people just need to learn how to use it. It's hard to balance such unit, it's either too good and rapes enemy with free units or do nothing.
On September 06 2012 21:10 Tuczniak wrote: Ultra burrow charge also takes long time and is expensive. With no autocast one may wonder if it's worth at all.
Its way way more useful without autocast ~. Effectiveness is highly dependent on where the Ultra pops out.
This would be so completly overpowered. For example, let's have a look at what would change in tanks vs ling/bling: From 17 (or 18)damage per shot, to 30 in the 50% area; with +6/upgrades, +3tanks would oneshoot zerglings/banelings even in the 50%area From 8 (or 9) damage per shot, to 15 in the 25% area;
Marines, lings/blings would all just become unviable over night.
You can keep the dmg from splash the same and just buff the dmg done to the unit that is being targeted. Kind of like widow mines.
So like main target 100% 100% radius-->50% 50%radius-->25% 25%radius-->15%
not sure if this would really change a lot. Siege tanks are living from the splash they do, buffing it's damage vs one of the 5 zealots that are in the 100% area would be nice, but in the end probably still useless.
The splash is fine IMO, thats why they are good against low hp units (ling, banelings etc). The relatively low dmg to the main target is what makes them bad against Protoss, Zealots, Archons, Colossus, Imortals...to many units that take to many direct shots to kill.
With more dmg done to the main target, small units like lings, marines, banelings, workers,etc, would be almost unafected (is this a word? :p )
Well, in that case I'd say the better way to do it, would be just to buff vs armored from +15(+2) to +25(+3); so 60 vs armored. Vs Zealots, I think battle hellions are the better solution than changing tanks.
Edit: Sorry, forgot Archons. Probably just make it +25 vs armored/massive. or +15 vs armored, +25 vs massive. or +25 vs armored, +15 vs massive. Something along those lines
Yeah that could work. Point is, there are probably a lot of ways to make mech better and still feel like mech...they just do not want to. I feel like they simply dislike tanks, but why do they?
On the one hand they say they are trying to break up death balls but on the other they are adding easy to use, 1a friednly units that are designed to kill spread out tank lines, thus forceing the tank player to play death ball himself...i don't get it.
Strong Tanks can force out death balls in all VS T MUs. We've seen that in TvZ, at least pre patch. What are they thinking?
I personally feel that the Warhound does need a nerf, but not a total withdrawal from the game. I think the Warhound introduces an ineresting new Dynamic to mech play that it kind of needed. Mech is generally slow to get up and slow moving, I think it's a good idea to introduce a unit that can change that style to a more fast paced guerilla style of mech. I still disagree that the BattleH Helions flat out make Mech viable in TvP, they obviously fullfill the role of "tanks" but they really don't alter the fact that Bio would still be so much more optimal. I think the warhound intoduces that mobility that can make Mech useful in TvP because it can both combat the protoss army, as well as get around the map.
The warhound needs a Nerf, but it should stay just so players with a more aggressive mobile style aren't basically forced into comitting to the bio tech path. It's more than just Zealots that make mech a non-option in TvP.
You seriously think that abduct, arguably one of the best spells in the game, is worthless? You can now go roach / hydra / viper vs toss. And as we all know hydra rapes gateway units. With vipers abducting the collosi, hydras will actually get to fight and with the new hive upgrade won't be kited off creep. This one "uselss" unit alone will change the zvp metagame.
Your oracle idea? Terrible. How could you possibly think that having perma vision of a nexus/hatcher/cc is not imba? And 30 vision range? wow.
I agree that the warhound and tempest are terrible units from a design perspective but i would also add the swarm host to that list. Give me back my lurkers.
EDIT: Oh and by the way. Viper's consume is not an attack on buldings... it's primary function is to restore energy for the viper's spells making the viper even more powerfull....
On September 06 2012 12:48 Kharnage wrote: actually, you are incorrect about the reason for the vision on oracle.
it's not for tempest at all. It's so you don't auto lose to cloak banshee or DT if you open stargate. That's all. In WoL if you open stargate you build order lose to stealth tech.
For oracle vision you can either poke with phoenix, or hallu phoenix, or obs, or suicide a probe, or any number of options to get tempest the vision they need.
I think most people agree that the tempest is stupid. Even with range, it's supply vs damage ratio is too poor, meaning for them to be a credible threat their critical mass requires too much army supply. So the opponent either ignores them, or just 1A's your army and kills you. They are BL's that lack the ability to actually hurt anything. If their damage is increased or supply cost lowered protoss will get enough to do serious damage and cannon creep accross the map similar to spines and broods. I simply cannot see this unit working out.
I'm pretty sure oracle has 2 abilities; one you plant on a structure that gives vision, the other acts like scan that reveals invisible units. The scan lets you not die to cloak units yes, but the preordain ability seems to have been created specifically for the tempest.
IMO remove the tempest and both of these 2 lame sight abilities and give oracle something useful. Or just remove it completely and give toss a cost efficient stargate unit or gateway unit.
War hound should be removed. Why build siege tanks anymore? Siege tanks is one of the most iconic unit in SC. There is just no synergy between war hound and siege tanks. Battle helion is a great idea, warhound just feels too CnC to me. what is wrong with siege line stalemate? Is more interesting then Aclick warhound. Stop destroying the game PLEASE, TvT will bE the next PvP.
The OP's understanding of the tempest is completely wrong. Tempest is crucial because Protoss doesn't have a viable means to combat late-game broodlord/infestor army except the stupid archon toilet. Anything withing the range of 9.5 will be stunned and died instantly. And anything want to get close to the bl/infestor army will not be able to do so due to the stopping power of the broodlings. Even if you blink under, infested terran and bl will take stalker down.
Therefore, to give Protoss a way to combat that zerg late-game composition, it's required to have something that is out of the range of 9.5. Sure, you can increase the range of carrier to 9 or 9.5, or give carrier a siege mode that allows it to shoot 22 range, but that solution on carrier greatly changes the role of the original carrier (which is not about super long range but about mobility and micro). Due to the hard counter of corruptors which BW doesn't have, you have to make carrier faster than 2.95 in sc2 in order for it to counter corruptor. But carrier with 2.95 speed is too ridiculous to be implemented. So they go with the solution of tempest.
Also, tempest is a unit that is out of the deathball, theoretically. Since deathball is the biggest sin of sc2 that everyone criticizes, finding solutions to reduce deathball is important. Therefore, every race gets their anti-deathball unit in HOTS. The widow mine, the tempest and oracle, and the swarm host. They are all units that are designed to reduce the phenomenon of deathball and exert area control.
This is why they add tempest, this is why tempest is an important unit in matchups, and this is why tempest is a well designed unit..
Sorry, but could the OP clarify in the title whether this is a thread for dispassionately discussing the new units or a thread for bashing HOTS for not being BW/WoL anymore?
On September 06 2012 11:36 kaokentake wrote: The oracle? sort of like the above, at first i hated this unit because its worthless, but now i like it because its worthless as i realized I dont want too many unit additions ruining the way the current matchups "feel" as I think they still are pretty darn close to BW.
the Oracle is very silly. This is a very poorly designed harassment unit. It's very hard to be excited with Entombed. Not that the other abilities are much better.
On September 06 2012 11:36 kaokentake wrote: Adding some new combat units is ok, but the warhound is a horrible example of how to add a combat unit to this game. Many combat units already fulfill the small amount of roles that could exist, and adding in a bland thing like the warhound that overlaps too much with everything else just feels dumb.
Yes the current Warhound is terrible. It needs an urgent redesign of form and function.
On September 06 2012 11:36 kaokentake wrote: I have an idea for the oracle, what about a "empowered shield" ability for the oracle, for 100 energy when casted on a unit improves its shield strength by 100 extra, max of 200 extra, and when the extra shields are destroyed the unit doesnt get them back (it still has normal shields the extra is just extra from the spell). Then make units glow sort of blue-ish or something so you know it has extra shields. So this spell could be casted on collossi or carriers to make them stronger but its a very weak spell (100 energy for 100 life/shields, which is weak compared to fungals 75 energy to deal 250+ damage)
I like this suggestion.IMHO It would't even need to grant extra shields; It could actually be like a mobile shield battery from BW.
On September 06 2012 11:36 kaokentake wrote: I also believe the cloaking field should be removed and returned to the mothership. Giving mothersihp air stasis, ground vortex, recall, and cloaking field seems fine. The oracle with the cloaking field seems dumb.
I agree wholeheartedly. Just wait until you see an oracle cloaking a mothership. That will be really silly.
On September 06 2012 11:36 kaokentake wrote: Not only that, blizzard even added mines? i was against the mines at first thinking it didnt really need to exist and was just giving some free AoE dps on top of tanks for no reason. But now that their damage is alot weaker I think im slightly starting to like them. Make mines no longer target air units IMO, and I think they are a nice addition.
Again, I can't agree more. Seriously Blizzard? Burrowed mines that can attack air? This seems like an April 1st trolling.
i wish people like the OP would be the lead designers instead of DB and DK. actually i think most serious posters here could do a better job. to have us waiting for HotS for so long and then see a unit like the warhound is just a joke...
i have to say i really like the mothership core and oracle designs tho, they feel spot on protoss-like
tempest looks really gay and is a sad excuse to cut one of the coolest units ever - the carrier. when all it needed was maybe a minor buff. also i agree with the OP that the role the tempest is supposed to fulfill shouldnt exist
viper looks really zergy and also swarmhost, i like both of those, i also like seeing hydras being used more again, they just look way more zergy than roaches...
terran is a disaster though... widow mines and war hounds? seriously? battle hellions are ok i guess, but id rather have firebats from sc2 campaign tbh
i would love to see the BIG tanks from the sc2 campaign, make them 4 supply if you need to, give them awesome range. if any race would need a huge range unit its not toss but terran, since just one of these special tanks could lure the enemy into your siege line...
id also love to see more casters, more psy units or more uses for ghosts. ANYTHING but please NO MORE ROBOTS
Zerg Swarm Host - Nice. I'm a zerg player, but I liked of Locusts shoting ground only, it fits fine the concept and we have speedhydras now. Viper - Needs be changed requeriment from "Hive" to "Spire". Viper is weak, it's cleary a T2.5 unit (not a T3 unit) and it's a flying unit, ie, Spire related.
Terran Widow Mines Nice. But attack air is a little odd.. Battle Hellion Awesome. Warhound Doesn't fit. Options: 1) Bring back Goliath 2) Change it to an intermediate Thor that "upgrade" to Thor. Remember to give a nice name like Mijolnir. 3) Buff Battle Viking giving him the anti-mech missile <-- My Choice
Protoss Oracle Boring, but ok MotherShip Core nice, but I'm waiting the Planet Cracker ability (ok, ok, I will see it on LotV ) Tempest Duh. I will write a full post about that, but for now: 1) Boring engagements 2) The first concept (Muta killer) was FAR BETTER! 3) Tempest? It's a little rain for me... My sugestion? Bring back Carrier and give it "Tempest Shot" ability: All interceptors converges in one point in front of Carrier and then suicide in the target, causing 60 damage per interceptor used in the skill. Eventually you can research an upgrade to 22 range shot. (Do you remember some "Tempest" unit now?)
On September 06 2012 22:37 ZeroClick wrote: My fast 2 cents:
My sugestion? Bring back Carrier and give it "Tempest Shot" ability: All interceptors converges in one point in front of Carrier and then suicide in the target, causing 60 damage per interceptor used in the skill. Eventually you can research an upgrade to 22 range shot. (Do you remember some "Tempest" unit now?)
sounds awesome but would be terribly overpowered to kill town halls very fast, impossible to balance imho. i liked the idea of carriers moving while shooting way better. also a small hp buff to interceptors would be nice
I actually really like the concept of buffing the ground form of the viking, as it really has no role within the game and this seems to be true in HotS as well. This would also help with tech switches from zerg, which I also think is a good thing. Given the fact that terran production is the most expensive, they should really be the least vulnerable to tech switches, or at least it seems this way upon shallow inspection.
On September 07 2012 00:09 734pot wrote: I actually really like the concept of buffing the ground form of the viking, as it really has no role within the game and this seems to be true in HotS as well. This would also help with tech switches from zerg, which I also think is a good thing. Given the fact that terran production is the most expensive, they should really be the least vulnerable to tech switches, or at least it seems this way upon shallow inspection.
i agree, they could do with a little buff, no matter what else happens to the game
Yeah, just increase the ground viking damage vs mech, with maybe a tiny bit more range? With their already high attack speed they coukd shred immortals like marines do. Awesome
Great post. I agree with a lot of what you what you wrote. I think that the tempest and warhound just don't mesh well, and that the Zerg units probably fit best of any of them.
I think you were pretty high when you said the match ups reflect the way brood war was played lol. Zerg turtling up till they have an unstoppable deathball (and a wall of moveable 'static' defenses vs toss) to win in the endgame? Or ultra- or roachfest in zvz? Zerg's matchups don't reflect the way bw was played at all.
TvP isn't based around mech play in WOL either and PVP in bw wasn't war of the worlds?
On September 07 2012 00:09 734pot wrote: I actually really like the concept of buffing the ground form of the viking, as it really has no role within the game and this seems to be true in HotS as well. This would also help with tech switches from zerg, which I also think is a good thing. Given the fact that terran production is the most expensive, they should really be the least vulnerable to tech switches, or at least it seems this way upon shallow inspection.
Viking is fine as is. Their ground damage used to be higher earlier in WoL beta and what you got was terran players just massing them. They are supposed to be a unit which gives terran air superiority with a slightly useful ground mode and they do a fine job at it.
On September 06 2012 22:37 ZeroClick wrote: My fast 2 cents:
My sugestion? Bring back Carrier and give it "Tempest Shot" ability: All interceptors converges in one point in front of Carrier and then suicide in the target, causing 60 damage per interceptor used in the skill. Eventually you can research an upgrade to 22 range shot. (Do you remember some "Tempest" unit now?)
sounds awesome but would be terribly overpowered to kill town halls very fast, impossible to balance imho. i liked the idea of carriers moving while shooting way better. also a small hp buff to interceptors would be nice
This isnt Warcraft in space! These things arent called town halls -.-
I have an eerie feeling that there are three head designers responsible for one race each. The Zerg guy seem to be the most talented, since both WoL Zerg and HotS Zerg are great in my humble opinion. New nydus uses, Ultralisk charge, Viper and perhaps even Swarm Host are well designed and refreshing. However, the Terran and Protoss designers seem to be in a lower league. Perhaps get the Zerg guy to take a role of overlooking the whole design process.
OT: I really feel Swarm Host's Locusts should spawn instantly and charge directly without the 3-5 second delay. It could make for an interesting mechanic sort of like the Stop Lurker micro. If you de-select autocast you can then, when situation is right, ambush and surprise enemy units passing by. However, with this animation and popping up that takes time, marine will already scan and kill everything even if they have no clue it is there.
Why so much hate on oracle I don't get it. Correct me if I'm wrong but is it not the most mobile unit in the game meaning it's REALLY hard or even impossible to kill in pvz atleast before the zerg gets infestors. They stop mining, scout everything and give vision of the enemy army (obvious combo with 22 range tempest). Entomb has pretty good cast range from what I've seen on the streams so you can usually just go cast it and take shield dmg at most. With three oracles you can silly amounts of mineral harass and see the whole map basically. It has low hp and shield but crazy speed what makes it a bit micro intensive if you have more than 2 though. What I mean is vikings, muta or corruptor could never take them out if you're not caught on surprise.
its not rocket science to understand that ur playing terran. the whole read is "good units are the ones that are useless, cause that wont change the game. unless it benifits terran. and if its a good unit it should belong in the terran arsenal." soz dude, seems u put ur time in it and thats great, u had some nice pointers, but overall, if ur gonna sum up the game u need to be alot more objective, where u see the big picture. not out of a terran point of view.
1. Saying that tempest is a 1a death ball unit is stupid as shit. Yeah, strictly speaking adding 300/300/6 unit to a deathball makes it stronger -- but then again, adding probes to a deathball also makes it stronger (incidentally 6 probes cost 300/0/6 and have twice the DPS of a tempest). Tempest is a unit you have to give vision, support with your army and manually target. Watching people massing tempests and send them straight through the map was hillarious on day 1 of the beta, but you learn quickly that this doesn't work. 2. Oracle's cloaking was removed before open beta started. I can understand why people who didn't play a single game discuss HotS, but at least don't be ignorant if you bother to! 3. Some units in their current state are OP. Maybe even intentionally (so people have more incentive experimenting them). Come on, this is beta, this is the frakin' second day of beta, warhound's stats and cost will change many times.
I do however agree that in its current form warhound is the most stupid unit in HotS due to how it is designed
It seems many protoss here feel that tempests are needed to combat infestor/broodlord.
I feel thats incorrect. I think one problem that does exist however is that carriers received a "nerf" in patch 1.5 where the interceptors clump up alot more now, making 1fungal hit almost all the interceptors.
I believe carriers would be a better counter to infestor/broodlords if fungal was changed to no longer work against interceptors.
How about just make interceptors immune to spells, boom I think thats perfect and thats all thats needed. So thor splash still works against interceptors, but spells (hsm/storm/fungal) do nothing to interceptors.
You can still chain fungal on the carriers and kill them with corrupters or launch 50 infested terrans and fungal the carriers, you just cannot chain fungal the interceptors anymore and kill 80% of the interceptors with 2 fungals.
If interceptors were buffed to be immune to spells, it would fix alot of stuff in lategame PvZ (combined with letting carriers attack while moving, and reducing buildtime by a bit). Right now I feel most zergs are starting to abuse fungal vs interceptors when the toss reponds with carriers, and it does seem a little too good.
On September 07 2012 02:12 wcr.4fun wrote: I think you were pretty high when you said the match ups reflect the way brood war was played lol. Zerg turtling up till they have an unstoppable deathball (and a wall of moveable 'static' defenses vs toss) to win in the endgame? Or ultra- or roachfest in zvz? Zerg's matchups don't reflect the way bw was played at all.
TvP isn't based around mech play in WOL either and PVP in bw wasn't war of the worlds?
i said non-mirrors
TvZ in BW is heavily about terran trying to use timings to punish a zerg whos ultimately going for his hive doom army
PvZ is largely the same thing
TvP in WoL is the matchup the most unlike its BW matchup, however if you consider the roles flipped then its like BW because in BW the protoss had army/units that were very strong in small numbers (now terran is like this) and the protoss did harassment fights all over the map trying to attack the terran where his doom army wasnt while the terran was trying to turtle to his doom army
Wow, I completely agree with OP. I think the community has a better gauge on the pulse of the game than Blizzard does in about 100% of situations including the state of HotS.
On September 07 2012 03:46 Revelatus wrote: Wow, I completely agree with OP. I think the community has a better gauge on the pulse of the game than Blizzard does in about 100% of situations including the state of HotS.
hey even look at my comment in the thread It would do HOTS good.
On September 07 2012 02:44 IIIOmegaIII wrote: its not rocket science to understand that ur playing terran. the whole read is "good units are the ones that are useless, cause that wont change the game. unless it benifits terran. and if its a good unit it should belong in the terran arsenal." soz dude, seems u put ur time in it and thats great, u had some nice pointers, but overall, if ur gonna sum up the game u need to be alot more objective, where u see the big picture. not out of a terran point of view.
I play terran, yet i want the warhound removed, and I want mines nerfed to not hit ait (while keeping its low damage), and im fine with protoss getting a cheap flying collossi produced after cyber core that can attack my base at 8 minutes and do a powerful timing thats almost free for the protoss? and im fine with zerg getting essentially lair-tech broodlords with the swarmhost?
I think im pretty nonbiased. My ultimate changelog would give each race 2 units (zerg and protoss having spellcasters as one of those units) and terran gets 2 units with no spellcaster, one of those being a transformation of a current unit.
On September 07 2012 02:26 HowardRoark wrote: I have an eerie feeling that there are three head designers responsible for one race each. The Zerg guy seem to be the most talented, since both WoL Zerg and HotS Zerg are great in my humble opinion. New nydus uses, Ultralisk charge, Viper and perhaps even Swarm Host are well designed and refreshing. However, the Terran and Protoss designers seem to be in a lower league. Perhaps get the Zerg guy to take a role of overlooking the whole design process.
I'd say the complete opposite, actually. Zerg and Protoss suffer from bad deathball design and viability that lives and dies on single high tech units (infestor/colossus) while Terran has a lot of versatility and stylistic freedom, which we see play out in the mirror quite often.
Of the SC2 races, Terran plays most like a BW race. That's why it's the most fun to watch and play.
Personally, when i started reading the first time about the new units, i started scraching my head thinking "this is going to be far too caotic". There are way too many units with spells/abilities. The only micro left in the game as it seems is in mirror match ups, as in others there is only such a think in early game. With those additions, i hardly see any chance that this game will get more interesting.
One example: Mothership core. I get the idea but, 60 damage and 13 range?!?!! it will be better than canon rushes vs terrans and zergs or any other P that dont make it. Or at least it looks this way. the problem here is the 13 range btw >D.
I cant belive how much crap they are adding to the expansion. Its like they had a shitstorm of ideas and they decided "why not add everything, we will see later what happens".
Warhound - You understimate how mech sucks against mass Immortal. It's just a-move by the Protoss and they still be ridiculous cost-effective. The Warhound adress that, and if you do not adress that, Tank play isn't viable in the Matchup at all.
Tempest - I'm just seeing a lot of Carrier nostalgia here. The tempest requires good positionting, good target fire, vision management, adress late game Protoss stalemates, and just isn't a lame addition to the Deathball. It's better in all senses. Do you have anything like that for the Carriers? In the best case, they will be micro intensive. And still, I can't see they working with SC2 mechanics. Against Bio terran they'll still be useless. Agains mech or they will roflstomp, or they will be useless. There isn't a sweet spot.
Oracle - People need to figure out it yet. It's a unit that have awesome potential. It's a scout/vision management unit with worker friendly harass,. And it's not just dumb as the Observer (i put one here, i can see everything, and i hope that my enemy just don't see it XP). Entomb seems a boring spell, but i still prefer that instead of a raider thta kill everything on my mineral line before i can do anything.
On September 07 2012 21:55 Herect wrote: Warhound - You understimate how mech sucks against mass Immortal. It's just a-move by the Protoss and they still be ridiculous cost-effective. The Warhound adress that, and if you do not adress that, Tank play isn't viable in the Matchup at all.
Tempest - I'm just seeing a lot of Carrier nostalgia here. The tempest requires good positionting, good target fire, vision management, adress late game Protoss stalemates, and just isn't a lame addition to the Deathball. It's better in all senses. Do you have anything like that for the Carriers? In the best case, they will be micro intensive. And still, I can't see they working with SC2 mechanics. Against Bio terran they'll still be useless. Agains mech or they will roflstomp, or they will be useless. There isn't a sweet spot.
Oracle - People need to figure out it yet. It's a unit that have awesome potential. It's a scout/vision management unit with worker friendly harass,. And it's not just dumb as the Observer (i put one here, i can see everything, and i hope that my enemy just don't see it XP). Entomb seems a boring spell, but i still prefer that instead of a raider thta kill everything on my mineral line before i can do anything.
No problem with making mech viable in TvP, but the Warhound sure is not the way to go. As pointed out so often before its just not a mech unit.
Tempest is basically THE stalemate unit. It actually encourages turtleplay a lot if you support it with some cannons and other support. There is no way to attack in a defensive position which has a 22 range unit there.. Dimaga played one game where Protoss just turtled on some bases and he couldn't do a thing. He later left that very long game because he ran out of gas to do anything.
Not a huge problem with the Oracle, but imho at least one spell has to be changed to make it a little more interesting.
On September 07 2012 21:55 Herect wrote: Warhound - You understimate how mech sucks against mass Immortal. It's just a-move by the Protoss and they still be ridiculous cost-effective. The Warhound adress that, and if you do not adress that, Tank play isn't viable in the Matchup at all.
Tempest - I'm just seeing a lot of Carrier nostalgia here. The tempest requires good positionting, good target fire, vision management, adress late game Protoss stalemates, and just isn't a lame addition to the Deathball. It's better in all senses. Do you have anything like that for the Carriers? In the best case, they will be micro intensive. And still, I can't see they working with SC2 mechanics. Against Bio terran they'll still be useless. Agains mech or they will roflstomp, or they will be useless. There isn't a sweet spot.
Oracle - People need to figure out it yet. It's a unit that have awesome potential. It's a scout/vision management unit with worker friendly harass,. And it's not just dumb as the Observer (i put one here, i can see everything, and i hope that my enemy just don't see it XP). Entomb seems a boring spell, but i still prefer that instead of a raider thta kill everything on my mineral line before i can do anything.
No problem with making mech viable in TvP, but the Warhound sure is not the way to go. As pointed out so often before its just not a mech unit.
Tempest is basically THE stalemate unit. It actually encourages turtleplay a lot if you support it with some cannons and other support. There is no way to attack in a defensive position which has a 22 range unit there.. Dimaga played one game where Protoss just turtled on some bases and he couldn't do a thing. He later left that very long game because he ran out of gas to do anything.
Not a huge problem with the Oracle, but imho at least one spell has to be changed to make it a little more interesting.
Tempest doesn't have the DPS and the "unforgiving felling" to be Stalemate Unit. Even if the range is huge. they don't control space because their attack is just a poke. It's not like an Bl/Infestor that one missclick make your army melt to Bloodlings/Chain fungals.
Not giving terran a unit similar to the Warhound would imply a total rework of the Immortal. Its just not fair Protoss having a unit a-move friendly while Terran didn't have the same easy time. And reworking the immortal would mean a total revolution in the Matchups. Blizz didn't want to change too much the WoL Metagame (you can see that in their changes, most new units are in Tier "2.5"/3, exceptions are the Warhound and the Mommacore, and they didn't touch any of the most stabilished units (almost all underused units like Hydras, BCs received changes, with ultras being another exception)). Otherwise, HotS would be a new game instead of just a expansion.
The problem with the warhound is that immortals still beat it... It is basically more of a counter to stalkers than anything, which it melts stupidly fast. Seems to me like if they want a mech unit that counters the immortal it should have an attack the slighty outranges it and has low damage- high attack speed, so it doesn't completely destroy every other unit toss has in a-move fashion. This way you can take out its shields and kite back towards your tank line, which will then do full damage shots on the immortals
On September 07 2012 02:12 wcr.4fun wrote: I think you were pretty high when you said the match ups reflect the way brood war was played lol. Zerg turtling up till they have an unstoppable deathball (and a wall of moveable 'static' defenses vs toss) to win in the endgame? Or ultra- or roachfest in zvz? Zerg's matchups don't reflect the way bw was played at all.
TvP isn't based around mech play in WOL either and PVP in bw wasn't war of the worlds?
TvZ in BW is heavily about terran trying to use timings to punish a zerg whos ultimately going for his hive doom army
PvZ is largely the same thing
Zerg didn't have a doom army in BW.
In ZvP Protoss could Archon/HT/Reaver, which at 200/200 was unbeatable for Zerg. Terran if allowed to Mech and cut the map in half was also equally unbeatable. And ZvT against bio was based on Zerg keeping the Terran SV cloud as small as possible.
I think it's actually important for mech in TvP that there is a unit that trades well with stalkers and immortals. Battle hellions and mines simply aren't enough. It'd be too easy to move your stalkers and immortals around to decimate mech without a warhound type unit.
People will complain about the warhound even after it is balanced, just like they still do today with the roach and marauder. It's not good game design to have a massable, tier 1 unit as fast and versatile as the stalker (it can hit air, too) not be well-countered by a few units. Trading well with it in making mech is what will make the mech viable.
Then realise, the new units make it even stronger, aswell as a lot more mobile. If warhounds beat immortals what does protoss do? there are then no ground units that could do well against it.
So much hate on the Tempest. It's funny because if half on my HOTS games people try massing them and cry when I mass corrupters. The Tempest is not meant to be massed. I would say around 4 is optimal. The function is to control brood lord/infestor pushes and seige/thor lines. That is it. They are not a unit to be massed or change the game, they are for map control that is it.
The warhound is iffy. I don't mind it to much when playing with it but again I really think they are not meant to be massed. I like to mix it into a bio army or make equal amounts of BH and Warhounds. With mech it is crucial you have starports now.
Most people in here are not even in the beta or in a position to make these rediculous assumptions. Wait a few months while the game tweaks and is released. Right now it is chaos, people massing tempest and warhounds and expecting to win. It is really silly.
lol, people dont understand that the tempest is a siege unit (like the carrier that people fail to understand how to use) and should not be massed or put into a ball of units.
On September 08 2012 03:01 LgNKami wrote: lol, people dont understand that the tempest is a siege unit (like the carrier that people fail to understand how to use) and should not be massed or put into a ball of units.
That's all fine until that expensive Tempest siege group you made gets annihilated by a group of 10 Corrupters/Vikings that didn't take the Zerg/Terran very long to make given the way Larva/Reactors work.
On September 07 2012 02:12 wcr.4fun wrote: I think you were pretty high when you said the match ups reflect the way brood war was played lol. Zerg turtling up till they have an unstoppable deathball (and a wall of moveable 'static' defenses vs toss) to win in the endgame? Or ultra- or roachfest in zvz? Zerg's matchups don't reflect the way bw was played at all.
TvP isn't based around mech play in WOL either and PVP in bw wasn't war of the worlds?
TvZ in BW is heavily about terran trying to use timings to punish a zerg whos ultimately going for his hive doom army
PvZ is largely the same thing
Zerg didn't have a doom army in BW.
In ZvP Protoss could Archon/HT/Reaver, which at 200/200 was unbeatable for Zerg. Terran if allowed to Mech and cut the map in half was also equally unbeatable. And ZvT against bio was based on Zerg keeping the Terran SV cloud as small as possible.
zergs doom army was their superior economy/production
toss/terran had to pressure in some way to stop the doom scenario from happening and the zerg just rolling them over
not pressuring a zerg meant death to a doom army
zerg not pressuring a terran/toss (with them not pressuring him back) meant victory with a doom army
whoever had the unbeatable 200 food army doesnt matter because alot of it meant if you could get that army. zerg could get theirs so well that you needed to pressure and stop it
by "doom army", i simply meant zerg was the "race that needed to be pressured before he became unstoppable"
On September 08 2012 03:01 LgNKami wrote: lol, people dont understand that the tempest is a siege unit (like the carrier that people fail to understand how to use) and should not be massed or put into a ball of units. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That's all fine until that expensive Tempest siege group you made gets annihilated by a group of 10 Corrupters/Vikings that didn't take the Zerg/Terran very long to make given the way Larva/Reactors work.
If your a low level player and let your expensive Tempest siege group, siege without your army. You get 4 and protect them while you work your way towards their base. They are meant to punish players who do not react to them properly. Any more than 5ish is a waste because you can't count on their damage in a battle. But if you harass them properly you can even the battle out before it happens.
[QUOTE]On September 06 2012 11:36 kaokentake wrote:
I have an idea for the oracle, what about a "empowered shield" ability for the oracle, for 100 energy when casted on a unit improves its shield strength by 100 extra, max of 200 extra, and when the extra shields are destroyed the unit doesnt get them back (it still has normal shields the extra is just extra from the spell). Then make units glow sort of blue-ish or something so you know it has extra shields. So this spell could be casted on collossi or carriers to make them stronger but its a very weak spell (100 energy for 100 life/shields, which is weak compared to fungals 75 energy to deal 250+ damage)
QUOTE]
I agree with the OP whole heartedly, we could change the "useless" spells on the Oracle. I suggest one that Damages a biological unit and adjacent biological units, dealing 250 damage over 25 seconds. We could call it "irradiate"
Furthermore we could make it a detector unit too
Can I get a nerd high five for the science vessal joke?
On September 08 2012 01:20 Visage814 wrote: The problem with the warhound is that immortals still beat it... It is basically more of a counter to stalkers than anything, which it melts stupidly fast. Seems to me like if they want a mech unit that counters the immortal it should have an attack the slighty outranges it and has low damage- high attack speed, so it doesn't completely destroy every other unit toss has in a-move fashion. This way you can take out its shields and kite back towards your tank line, which will then do full damage shots on the immortals
Um. Maybe in very very small groups. The longer the fight goes the more it tilts in the warhounds favor. This has been shown. Between it having two attack to drop the shield. It having a longer range. It moving faster. And haywire having an even longer range than the autoattack.
On September 06 2012 20:08 Evangelist wrote: The only reason there's some much crap about the Tempest is they replaced a unit that's been completely useless since the beginning (carrier) with something that actually solves problems. The Tempest is a fantastic idea - it basically forces engagements on the terms of the toss by sniping off broodlords/infestors. It provides an immediate threat that must be dealt with.
Tempests will make the matchup more dynamic, as you will see more flanking, more corruptor movement and stalker/archon/corruptor battles as toss try and protect their tempests from corruptors. Hell they'll probably force hydras to be included, thus breaking up the deathball even more.
EPT
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