This would be so completly overpowered. For example, let's have a look at what would change in tanks vs ling/bling: From 17 (or 18)damage per shot, to 30 in the 50% area; with +6/upgrades, +3tanks would oneshoot zerglings/banelings even in the 50%area From 8 (or 9) damage per shot, to 15 in the 25% area;
Marines, lings/blings would all just become unviable over night.
Atleast tanks would actually be able to control space again in lower numbers. Just add overkill back on tanks and it'd be fine.
This would be so completly overpowered. For example, let's have a look at what would change in tanks vs ling/bling: From 17 (or 18)damage per shot, to 30 in the 50% area; with +6/upgrades, +3tanks would oneshoot zerglings/banelings even in the 50%area From 8 (or 9) damage per shot, to 15 in the 25% area;
Marines, lings/blings would all just become unviable over night.
You can keep the dmg from splash the same and just buff the dmg done to the unit that is being targeted. Kind of like widow mines.
This would be so completly overpowered. For example, let's have a look at what would change in tanks vs ling/bling: From 17 (or 18)damage per shot, to 30 in the 50% area; with +6/upgrades, +3tanks would oneshoot zerglings/banelings even in the 50%area From 8 (or 9) damage per shot, to 15 in the 25% area;
Marines, lings/blings would all just become unviable over night.
You can keep the dmg from splash the same and just buff the dmg done to the unit that is being targeted. Kind of like widow mines.
So like main target 100% 100% radius-->50% 50%radius-->25% 25%radius-->15%
not sure if this would really change a lot. Siege tanks are living from the splash they do, buffing it's damage vs one of the 5 zealots that are in the 100% area would be nice, but in the end probably still useless.
This would be so completly overpowered. For example, let's have a look at what would change in tanks vs ling/bling: From 17 (or 18)damage per shot, to 30 in the 50% area; with +6/upgrades, +3tanks would oneshoot zerglings/banelings even in the 50%area From 8 (or 9) damage per shot, to 15 in the 25% area;
Marines, lings/blings would all just become unviable over night.
You can keep the dmg from splash the same and just buff the dmg done to the unit that is being targeted. Kind of like widow mines.
So like main target 100% 100% radius-->50% 50%radius-->25% 25%radius-->15%
not sure if this would really change a lot. Siege tanks are living from the splash they do, buffing it's damage vs one of the 5 zealots that are in the 100% area would be nice, but in the end probably still useless.
The splash is fine IMO, thats why they are good against low hp units (ling, banelings etc). The relatively low dmg to the main target is what makes them bad against Protoss, Zealots, Archons, Colossus, Imortals...to many units that take to many direct shots to kill.
With more dmg done to the main target, small units like lings, marines, banelings, workers,etc, would be almost unafected (is this a word? :p )
This would be so completly overpowered. For example, let's have a look at what would change in tanks vs ling/bling: From 17 (or 18)damage per shot, to 30 in the 50% area; with +6/upgrades, +3tanks would oneshoot zerglings/banelings even in the 50%area From 8 (or 9) damage per shot, to 15 in the 25% area;
Marines, lings/blings would all just become unviable over night.
You can keep the dmg from splash the same and just buff the dmg done to the unit that is being targeted. Kind of like widow mines.
So like main target 100% 100% radius-->50% 50%radius-->25% 25%radius-->15%
not sure if this would really change a lot. Siege tanks are living from the splash they do, buffing it's damage vs one of the 5 zealots that are in the 100% area would be nice, but in the end probably still useless.
The splash is fine IMO, thats why they are good against low hp units (ling, banelings etc). The relatively low dmg to the main target is what makes them bad against Protoss, Zealots, Archons, Colossus, Imortals...to many units that take to many direct shots to kill.
With more dmg done to the main target, small units like lings, marines, banelings, workers,etc, would be almost unafected (is this a word? :p )
Well, in that case I'd say the better way to do it, would be just to buff vs armored from +15(+2) to +25(+3); so 60 vs armored. Vs Zealots, I think battle hellions are the better solution than changing tanks.
Edit: Sorry, forgot Archons. Probably just make it +25 vs armored/massive. or +15 vs armored, +25 vs massive. or +25 vs armored, +15 vs massive. Something along those lines
Blinding cloud is basically only zvz (all terrans go mech). It would be nice if it worked on non-bio. I can be balanced with energy/radius/duration. So i don't think it would be problem. Also would be a spell to break deathballs -> big plus there.
Hydra speed on hive is way too late. Too late for any timing with such squishy and expensive units. But maybe roach/hydra will be used in zvt :D.
Ultra burrow charge also takes long time and is expensive. With no autocast one may wonder if it's worth at all.
Swarm Host doesn't seem to enable zerg to pressure as much. But maybe people just need to learn how to use it. It's hard to balance such unit, it's either too good and rapes enemy with free units or do nothing.
On September 06 2012 21:10 Tuczniak wrote: Ultra burrow charge also takes long time and is expensive. With no autocast one may wonder if it's worth at all.
Its way way more useful without autocast ~. Effectiveness is highly dependent on where the Ultra pops out.
This would be so completly overpowered. For example, let's have a look at what would change in tanks vs ling/bling: From 17 (or 18)damage per shot, to 30 in the 50% area; with +6/upgrades, +3tanks would oneshoot zerglings/banelings even in the 50%area From 8 (or 9) damage per shot, to 15 in the 25% area;
Marines, lings/blings would all just become unviable over night.
You can keep the dmg from splash the same and just buff the dmg done to the unit that is being targeted. Kind of like widow mines.
So like main target 100% 100% radius-->50% 50%radius-->25% 25%radius-->15%
not sure if this would really change a lot. Siege tanks are living from the splash they do, buffing it's damage vs one of the 5 zealots that are in the 100% area would be nice, but in the end probably still useless.
The splash is fine IMO, thats why they are good against low hp units (ling, banelings etc). The relatively low dmg to the main target is what makes them bad against Protoss, Zealots, Archons, Colossus, Imortals...to many units that take to many direct shots to kill.
With more dmg done to the main target, small units like lings, marines, banelings, workers,etc, would be almost unafected (is this a word? :p )
Well, in that case I'd say the better way to do it, would be just to buff vs armored from +15(+2) to +25(+3); so 60 vs armored. Vs Zealots, I think battle hellions are the better solution than changing tanks.
Edit: Sorry, forgot Archons. Probably just make it +25 vs armored/massive. or +15 vs armored, +25 vs massive. or +25 vs armored, +15 vs massive. Something along those lines
Yeah that could work. Point is, there are probably a lot of ways to make mech better and still feel like mech...they just do not want to. I feel like they simply dislike tanks, but why do they?
On the one hand they say they are trying to break up death balls but on the other they are adding easy to use, 1a friednly units that are designed to kill spread out tank lines, thus forceing the tank player to play death ball himself...i don't get it.
Strong Tanks can force out death balls in all VS T MUs. We've seen that in TvZ, at least pre patch. What are they thinking?
I personally feel that the Warhound does need a nerf, but not a total withdrawal from the game. I think the Warhound introduces an ineresting new Dynamic to mech play that it kind of needed. Mech is generally slow to get up and slow moving, I think it's a good idea to introduce a unit that can change that style to a more fast paced guerilla style of mech. I still disagree that the BattleH Helions flat out make Mech viable in TvP, they obviously fullfill the role of "tanks" but they really don't alter the fact that Bio would still be so much more optimal. I think the warhound intoduces that mobility that can make Mech useful in TvP because it can both combat the protoss army, as well as get around the map.
The warhound needs a Nerf, but it should stay just so players with a more aggressive mobile style aren't basically forced into comitting to the bio tech path. It's more than just Zealots that make mech a non-option in TvP.
You seriously think that abduct, arguably one of the best spells in the game, is worthless? You can now go roach / hydra / viper vs toss. And as we all know hydra rapes gateway units. With vipers abducting the collosi, hydras will actually get to fight and with the new hive upgrade won't be kited off creep. This one "uselss" unit alone will change the zvp metagame.
Your oracle idea? Terrible. How could you possibly think that having perma vision of a nexus/hatcher/cc is not imba? And 30 vision range? wow.
I agree that the warhound and tempest are terrible units from a design perspective but i would also add the swarm host to that list. Give me back my lurkers.
EDIT: Oh and by the way. Viper's consume is not an attack on buldings... it's primary function is to restore energy for the viper's spells making the viper even more powerfull....
On September 06 2012 12:48 Kharnage wrote: actually, you are incorrect about the reason for the vision on oracle.
it's not for tempest at all. It's so you don't auto lose to cloak banshee or DT if you open stargate. That's all. In WoL if you open stargate you build order lose to stealth tech.
For oracle vision you can either poke with phoenix, or hallu phoenix, or obs, or suicide a probe, or any number of options to get tempest the vision they need.
I think most people agree that the tempest is stupid. Even with range, it's supply vs damage ratio is too poor, meaning for them to be a credible threat their critical mass requires too much army supply. So the opponent either ignores them, or just 1A's your army and kills you. They are BL's that lack the ability to actually hurt anything. If their damage is increased or supply cost lowered protoss will get enough to do serious damage and cannon creep accross the map similar to spines and broods. I simply cannot see this unit working out.
I'm pretty sure oracle has 2 abilities; one you plant on a structure that gives vision, the other acts like scan that reveals invisible units. The scan lets you not die to cloak units yes, but the preordain ability seems to have been created specifically for the tempest.
IMO remove the tempest and both of these 2 lame sight abilities and give oracle something useful. Or just remove it completely and give toss a cost efficient stargate unit or gateway unit.
War hound should be removed. Why build siege tanks anymore? Siege tanks is one of the most iconic unit in SC. There is just no synergy between war hound and siege tanks. Battle helion is a great idea, warhound just feels too CnC to me. what is wrong with siege line stalemate? Is more interesting then Aclick warhound. Stop destroying the game PLEASE, TvT will bE the next PvP.
The OP's understanding of the tempest is completely wrong. Tempest is crucial because Protoss doesn't have a viable means to combat late-game broodlord/infestor army except the stupid archon toilet. Anything withing the range of 9.5 will be stunned and died instantly. And anything want to get close to the bl/infestor army will not be able to do so due to the stopping power of the broodlings. Even if you blink under, infested terran and bl will take stalker down.
Therefore, to give Protoss a way to combat that zerg late-game composition, it's required to have something that is out of the range of 9.5. Sure, you can increase the range of carrier to 9 or 9.5, or give carrier a siege mode that allows it to shoot 22 range, but that solution on carrier greatly changes the role of the original carrier (which is not about super long range but about mobility and micro). Due to the hard counter of corruptors which BW doesn't have, you have to make carrier faster than 2.95 in sc2 in order for it to counter corruptor. But carrier with 2.95 speed is too ridiculous to be implemented. So they go with the solution of tempest.
Also, tempest is a unit that is out of the deathball, theoretically. Since deathball is the biggest sin of sc2 that everyone criticizes, finding solutions to reduce deathball is important. Therefore, every race gets their anti-deathball unit in HOTS. The widow mine, the tempest and oracle, and the swarm host. They are all units that are designed to reduce the phenomenon of deathball and exert area control.
This is why they add tempest, this is why tempest is an important unit in matchups, and this is why tempest is a well designed unit..
Sorry, but could the OP clarify in the title whether this is a thread for dispassionately discussing the new units or a thread for bashing HOTS for not being BW/WoL anymore?
On September 06 2012 11:36 kaokentake wrote: The oracle? sort of like the above, at first i hated this unit because its worthless, but now i like it because its worthless as i realized I dont want too many unit additions ruining the way the current matchups "feel" as I think they still are pretty darn close to BW.
the Oracle is very silly. This is a very poorly designed harassment unit. It's very hard to be excited with Entombed. Not that the other abilities are much better.
On September 06 2012 11:36 kaokentake wrote: Adding some new combat units is ok, but the warhound is a horrible example of how to add a combat unit to this game. Many combat units already fulfill the small amount of roles that could exist, and adding in a bland thing like the warhound that overlaps too much with everything else just feels dumb.
Yes the current Warhound is terrible. It needs an urgent redesign of form and function.
On September 06 2012 11:36 kaokentake wrote: I have an idea for the oracle, what about a "empowered shield" ability for the oracle, for 100 energy when casted on a unit improves its shield strength by 100 extra, max of 200 extra, and when the extra shields are destroyed the unit doesnt get them back (it still has normal shields the extra is just extra from the spell). Then make units glow sort of blue-ish or something so you know it has extra shields. So this spell could be casted on collossi or carriers to make them stronger but its a very weak spell (100 energy for 100 life/shields, which is weak compared to fungals 75 energy to deal 250+ damage)
I like this suggestion.IMHO It would't even need to grant extra shields; It could actually be like a mobile shield battery from BW.
On September 06 2012 11:36 kaokentake wrote: I also believe the cloaking field should be removed and returned to the mothership. Giving mothersihp air stasis, ground vortex, recall, and cloaking field seems fine. The oracle with the cloaking field seems dumb.
I agree wholeheartedly. Just wait until you see an oracle cloaking a mothership. That will be really silly.
On September 06 2012 11:36 kaokentake wrote: Not only that, blizzard even added mines? i was against the mines at first thinking it didnt really need to exist and was just giving some free AoE dps on top of tanks for no reason. But now that their damage is alot weaker I think im slightly starting to like them. Make mines no longer target air units IMO, and I think they are a nice addition.
Again, I can't agree more. Seriously Blizzard? Burrowed mines that can attack air? This seems like an April 1st trolling.
i wish people like the OP would be the lead designers instead of DB and DK. actually i think most serious posters here could do a better job. to have us waiting for HotS for so long and then see a unit like the warhound is just a joke...
i have to say i really like the mothership core and oracle designs tho, they feel spot on protoss-like
tempest looks really gay and is a sad excuse to cut one of the coolest units ever - the carrier. when all it needed was maybe a minor buff. also i agree with the OP that the role the tempest is supposed to fulfill shouldnt exist
viper looks really zergy and also swarmhost, i like both of those, i also like seeing hydras being used more again, they just look way more zergy than roaches...
terran is a disaster though... widow mines and war hounds? seriously? battle hellions are ok i guess, but id rather have firebats from sc2 campaign tbh
i would love to see the BIG tanks from the sc2 campaign, make them 4 supply if you need to, give them awesome range. if any race would need a huge range unit its not toss but terran, since just one of these special tanks could lure the enemy into your siege line...
id also love to see more casters, more psy units or more uses for ghosts. ANYTHING but please NO MORE ROBOTS
Zerg Swarm Host - Nice. I'm a zerg player, but I liked of Locusts shoting ground only, it fits fine the concept and we have speedhydras now. Viper - Needs be changed requeriment from "Hive" to "Spire". Viper is weak, it's cleary a T2.5 unit (not a T3 unit) and it's a flying unit, ie, Spire related.
Terran Widow Mines Nice. But attack air is a little odd.. Battle Hellion Awesome. Warhound Doesn't fit. Options: 1) Bring back Goliath 2) Change it to an intermediate Thor that "upgrade" to Thor. Remember to give a nice name like Mijolnir. 3) Buff Battle Viking giving him the anti-mech missile <-- My Choice
Protoss Oracle Boring, but ok MotherShip Core nice, but I'm waiting the Planet Cracker ability (ok, ok, I will see it on LotV ) Tempest Duh. I will write a full post about that, but for now: 1) Boring engagements 2) The first concept (Muta killer) was FAR BETTER! 3) Tempest? It's a little rain for me... My sugestion? Bring back Carrier and give it "Tempest Shot" ability: All interceptors converges in one point in front of Carrier and then suicide in the target, causing 60 damage per interceptor used in the skill. Eventually you can research an upgrade to 22 range shot. (Do you remember some "Tempest" unit now?)
On September 06 2012 22:37 ZeroClick wrote: My fast 2 cents:
My sugestion? Bring back Carrier and give it "Tempest Shot" ability: All interceptors converges in one point in front of Carrier and then suicide in the target, causing 60 damage per interceptor used in the skill. Eventually you can research an upgrade to 22 range shot. (Do you remember some "Tempest" unit now?)
sounds awesome but would be terribly overpowered to kill town halls very fast, impossible to balance imho. i liked the idea of carriers moving while shooting way better. also a small hp buff to interceptors would be nice
EPT
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