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On October 15 2010 04:12 Kishuu wrote:
What you guys need to understand is that Jim doesn't ride a normal battlecruiser. It is the fucking Hyperion and he can have INTERCEPTORS on that shit if he wants to.
Grabbing the storyline and trying to make sense out of it based on gameplay mechanics is not something that you should do. They'll be different for a very broad variety of reasons and that's the way it is.
Not trying to sound like a dickhead but you guys are stretching it up too much.
This ^^
In fact, if you actually played the campaign and got the BC upgrades, one of them is a GIANT FUCKING SHIELD THAT ABSORBS 300 DAMAGE. So in other words, the shields are even in the campaign BCs that you get so stop bitching about that minor detail pl0x.
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On October 15 2010 11:50 0mar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2010 11:26 n00bination wrote:The novels probably have an answer to that. Marines generally go throguh resocialisation due to the fact that Mengsks favorite retruiting stations include miximum security prisons. The marines are for all intents and purposes completely docile zombie slaves not capable of insubordination which kind of fits in with the whole brutal regime that Mengsk has going on. Guess Valarian might have instructed the marines to go easy and miss delieberatly? And Raynor never gave him much of a chance to Last edit: 2010-10-15 09:21:48
communicate peacefully. The resocialization isn't complete, though. Marines still have some semblance of free will. It's only under the influence of stims do they turn into mindless subservient zombies. Also, I don't think Valerian was in direct command of the marines, but rather General Warfield, which makes no sense seeing as how he probably wouldn't want to just throw his own men away. yea, that's even worse when you consider that Warfield knew about Valerian's plan to assault Char. There's no need to throw away soldiers especially when those soldiers could potentially kill the ally Valerian wanted. Every available man would have been crucial considering the odds Valerian thrust the fleet into.
It's only 150 minerals so it's all good.
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Could have been spent on another barracks to create an endless amount of marines.
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Wasn't it Arcturus' flagship? Maybe Valerian didn't care about the men on that ship because they were all loyal to his father and not him?
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On October 14 2010 20:27 Billy_ wrote:
Battlecruisers have had shields ever since the UED attempted to capture Mengsk on Korhal during BW. When you get a choice between taking out the nukes and the starports, destroy the nukes. The BC captain clearly says "shields up, weapons online".
Chalk it up to gameplay balancing mechanics.
Well, that's a direct rip of one of the Battlecruiser annoyed quotes that had been in since vanilla. The next one in the series is, "Not equipped with shields? ...Well then, buckle up!"
It's a convoluted mess, really. I was still under the impression that they did not have shields until that cutscene--and SC2's story is pretty full of rewrites, so there's no guarantee they were really thinking about it when they wrote that line. I'd bet the novels mention shields a bunch though since it's such a common sci-fi trope.
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Terran definitely have shield technology since Science vessels can Defensive Matrix in SC1. So... Yeah we can do shields. Just depends on the class of Battlecruiser I expect, since its mentioned that there are different classes.
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battlecruiser's armor is made with a combination of force field and neosteel, and that's canon.
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Well would it be easier to accept that a Battlecruiser can apparantly travel at light speed and not have some kind of shield or force field which keeps the steel hull from falling apart?
Yeah, a shieldless Battlecruiser surviving insanely fast speeds is a bit hard to believe if you think about it.
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On October 14 2010 20:27 Billy_ wrote:Like I said, Jim had the right idea. Valarian just seemed needlessly reckless in that cinematic, almost like he had a death wish. It must have taken Jim some discipline to not just kill Valarian right away. Then Val looke incompetent when the Zerg surprised him while orbiting Char and needed Jim and Warfield to salvage the trainwreck of an invasion fleet. Show nested quote +On October 14 2010 20:08 BadStigma wrote:
Battle Cruisers have Shields??, in the cinematic its was a statement as if it comes standard with shields? Ignoring the ingame upgrade which is a temporary once off use.
Thats was my biggest problem with it. Battlecruisers have had shields ever since the UED attempted to capture Mengsk on Korhal during BW. When you get a choice between taking out the nukes and the starports, destroy the nukes. The BC captain clearly says "shields up, weapons online". Chalk it up to gameplay balancing mechanics.
In the same Level the next time the enemy battlecrusiers move they say "Not Equipped with shield? Better Buckle Up..." So this in its self proves that shields are not something that comes standard with a battlecrusier at that time. I believe that his statement about their shields not being up could be a little Easter egg for nerds like me to nerdgasm as the developers and scriptwriters have no idea what game they are making, or where it has been in the past. 
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1) BCs DO HAVE SHIELDS in the single player campaign
2) Star Trek exists. This means any dialogue written for a scene involving multiple spaceships will mention a ship's shields, without exception.
3) If you're the type that likes to bend dialogue mistakes into something that could possible make sense, then pretend he was referring to small shields around the doors (or whatever the hell method they used to board the ship).
4) You can also consider the BC's entire HP pool "shields" and that it blows up once they're all gone, (mostly) similar to Star Trek.
5) WHO EFFING CARES
In response to the OP: I think people read wayyyyyyy more into these game scenes than was really intended... people are trying to decipher a character's true intentions, or figure out why they allowed certain things to happen... when honestly I think the reality is that someone was assigned the job of "write a scene where Raynor meets Valerian, and make it look really cool, like something out of a big movie."
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Valerian is not cold and ruthless.
If you read the Dark Templar Saga books (which are canon to the storyline I think), you see he's simply an itellect with a passion for artifacts and knowledge.
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I don't understand why anyone's making a big deal about the shields. For all we know, "shields" are counted as part of the HP of a Battlecruiser. Nobody said anything about Battlecruisers having Protoss shields.
And yeah this scene bothered me a bit. Kind of showed Valerian to be a total douchebag. "Oh you killed some of my men? It's cool. Let me tell you about this fabulous new plan I have for you to make me an awesome Emperor."
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Think about it ladies. Valerian's plan really is "Ally with Jim, openly confront father (the current emperor) with the fact that said rebel leader now is indeed an ally, assault the Zerg primary hive cluster on Char and simply let Jim pacify/turn the meanest, scarriest alien bitch ever... with an ancient xel'naga artifact (what are the odds most of Valerian's staff/personell even have a clue about xel'naga and protoss lore/myth?) "
Think of how agreable Warfield, the marines, or ANYBODY other than Valerian and Jimmy would have been with that idea right off the bat. Maybe they would've followed him blindly, maybe they wouldn't - I just get why he would wanna keep the plan a secret until set in motion. Also, despite Valerian uttering that his ambitions are becoming a better leader than his father ever was and all that jazz, we don't know whether he is bluffing in front of Raynor, trying to pursuade him, and just wants power, or if he is actually being sincere.
so my point is, there are numerable reasons as to why the marines would still attack Jim and Tychus. True, Valerian might have wanted to take some precautions concidering Jim kinda was his key to overthrowing his father's rule..
But yeah well, once more - cinematics and the universe exist by their own rules. That is why it is so epic. I get and still at the same time don't get why y'all are so eager to make it make perfect realistic sense. And I hate myself for repeating this, but I so strongly agree with everybody that has voiced the fact that GAMEPLAY =/= CINEMATICS/LORE/UNIVERSE for veeeery good reasons
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On October 14 2010 22:44 Billy_ wrote:Show nested quote +That's retarded. It's like saying "The suspect has his gun lowered, rush him!". Actually it's probably more like "The suspect has kicked his gun away and has stripped naked, layed face down and has hands behind his head" The cruiser is easily yamato blastable, and how likely is it that you can blow up one docked battlecruiser without destroying the other in the blast?
yamato cannon doesnt do any splash damage, so theres no chance of the blast destroying both ships
On October 22 2010 08:29 theossy wrote:
But yeah well, once more - cinematics and the universe exist by their own rules. That is why it is so epic. I get and still at the same time don't get why y'all are so eager to make it make perfect realistic sense. And I hate myself for repeating this, but I so strongly agree with everybody that has voiced the fact that GAMEPLAY =/= CINEMATICS/LORE/UNIVERSE for veeeery good reasons
i disagree, sc:bw did it rather well
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On October 22 2010 10:12 Cyber_Cheese wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2010 22:44 Billy_ wrote:That's retarded. It's like saying "The suspect has his gun lowered, rush him!". Actually it's probably more like "The suspect has kicked his gun away and has stripped naked, layed face down and has hands behind his head" The cruiser is easily yamato blastable, and how likely is it that you can blow up one docked battlecruiser without destroying the other in the blast? yamato cannon doesnt do any splash damage, so theres no chance of the blast destroying both ships
Try blowing up one of pretty much any vehicle next to another vehicle of the same type and see what happens.
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1) go to campaign
2) move to armory (cargo bay)
3) look at the back
4) realize the only thing seperating jim and claw man from space is a shield(similar to protoss's)
5) then realize this cargo bay and many other similar bays(since armies/ccs are deployed from these ships) grant super easy access to the ship.
6) shields are down-->> easy access
7)???
8) Profit
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On October 15 2010 02:39 ghostunit wrote:
The moment I heard "the battlecruisers' shields are down" the whole scene died to me. Since when do BCs have shields??? it makes no sense in the SC universe.
Are the writers really that lazy or did they just think we were idiots?
Defensive Matrix. In SC2, it's an upgrade for BCs in SC2 gives them a 300 hp shield. It was in BW too (on science vessels, of course)
Stop saying terrans have no clue what a shield is!
Though in BW, the BC captains would say "Shields up, weapons online." and then "Not equipped with shields... well, buckle up!"
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On October 22 2010 08:29 theossy wrote:
Think about it ladies. Valerian's plan really is "Ally with Jim, openly confront father (the current emperor) with the fact that said rebel leader now is indeed an ally, assault the Zerg primary hive cluster on Char and simply let Jim pacify/turn the meanest, scarriest alien bitch ever... with an ancient xel'naga artifact (what are the odds most of Valerian's staff/personell even have a clue about xel'naga and protoss lore/myth?) "
Think of how agreable Warfield, the marines, or ANYBODY other than Valerian and Jimmy would have been with that idea right off the bat. Maybe they would've followed him blindly, maybe they wouldn't - I just get why he would wanna keep the plan a secret until set in motion. Also, despite Valerian uttering that his ambitions are becoming a better leader than his father ever was and all that jazz, we don't know whether he is bluffing in front of Raynor, trying to pursuade him, and just wants power, or if he is actually being sincere.
so my point is, there are numerable reasons as to why the marines would still attack Jim and Tychus. True, Valerian might have wanted to take some precautions concidering Jim kinda was his key to overthrowing his father's rule..
But yeah well, once more - cinematics and the universe exist by their own rules. That is why it is so epic. I get and still at the same time don't get why y'all are so eager to make it make perfect realistic sense. And I hate myself for repeating this, but I so strongly agree with everybody that has voiced the fact that GAMEPLAY =/= CINEMATICS/LORE/UNIVERSE for veeeery good reasons
This explanation is even worse. It shows that there's no chain of command under Valerian. That's the whole point of the military. You a job/role and you do it without regard to your own feelings. If every soldier starting have second thoughts about his/her job, the entire system collapses. The marines should have known the plan from the second they entered Hyperion sensor range. Either Valerian/Warfield are incompetent leaders sending soldiers needlessly to their deaths or there is a distinct lack of discipline pervading Valerian's marine corps. There is no other explanation that works without invoking Raynor/Valerian being aware of their plot armor.
Secondly, Warfield was brought out of retirement by Valerian for precisely assaulting Char. He knew about the plan from the very beginning. However, he deferred judgment regarding Raynor to Valerian, which is why he doesn't shoot you or arrest you as soon as he sees you.
No matter how you try to spin it, this scene was just god awful.
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These are DOMINION soldiers we're talking about, people. It's pretty safe to assume that all the fodder (read: marines) have undergone neural resocialization. Aware of whatever plan (if any) or not, they wouldn't have the capacity to question orders or act in self-interest. If Valerian wanted them to dance in the middle of a boarding, they would.
It's pretty idiotic to insist that BCs have no shields just because they don't have the pretty blue numbers in-game. Simply because:
Game mechanics =/= canon
Considering that the Bucephalus is the Emperor's damn flagship, it's safe to assume that it's outfitted with ordinance far beyond the norm. What people tend to forget is that yes, the Hyperion is no ordinary Battlecruiser but compared to the Bucephalus, it's an old model. I doubt that such an important craft boarded by the heir to the "throne" would be escorted by just any run off the mill cruisers either.
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On October 22 2010 04:57 Ronald_McD wrote:
Valerian is not cold and ruthless.
If you read the Dark Templar Saga books (which are canon to the storyline I think), you see he's simply an itellect with a passion for artifacts and knowledge.
^--- This
If you have time, read the trilogy. Valerian is a very calculating person.
Also, the Nova book is pretty good too. I'm hoping for a Kerrigan vs Nova showdown in one of the expo packs. (Maybe as a bonus mission or something)
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EPT
