EPTI seem to be in the minority, but I actually think that Jims storming of the ship was a good move, and that it was Valarian who was the stupid one. I didn't think so while I was watching the movie play, which you could say is a script failure on the writers part, but it made sense after a few minutes of critical thinking. If the Dominion had planned on gunning the hyperion down they would have jumped in from behind and not in front of the ship and with nothing between Valarian and a Yamato blast, so it's pretty clear that Mengsk isn't going to blow the ship. plus the number countdown suggested that they were closing in pretty fast so any attempt to destroy the Hyperion could risk rather disasterous collatoral damage. I'm assuming that it only showed Jim and Tychus in the scene because it was of such high quality and that rendering additional marines would have taken a long time. but still, Tychus is absent when Jim finds Valarian, so it's logical to assume that he's off with a squad of marines guarding the perimiters.
Problem with the Jim meeting Valarian cinematic
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Billy_
461 Posts
I seem to be in the minority, but I actually think that Jims storming of the ship was a good move, and that it was Valarian who was the stupid one. I didn't think so while I was watching the movie play, which you could say is a script failure on the writers part, but it made sense after a few minutes of critical thinking. If the Dominion had planned on gunning the hyperion down they would have jumped in from behind and not in front of the ship and with nothing between Valarian and a Yamato blast, so it's pretty clear that Mengsk isn't going to blow the ship. plus the number countdown suggested that they were closing in pretty fast so any attempt to destroy the Hyperion could risk rather disasterous collatoral damage. I'm assuming that it only showed Jim and Tychus in the scene because it was of such high quality and that rendering additional marines would have taken a long time. but still, Tychus is absent when Jim finds Valarian, so it's logical to assume that he's off with a squad of marines guarding the perimiters. | ||
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Asx32
Poland24 Posts
Jim's decision was wise: Battlecruiser-wise it was 3 vs 1, while by storming he was likely to kill Arcturius - and win the revolution in one move. | ||
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BadStigma
South Africa27 Posts
Thats was my biggest problem with it. | ||
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nihoh
Australia978 Posts
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hadoken5
Canada519 Posts
On October 14 2010 18:48 Asx32 wrote: Mat said: "That's strange: their shields are still down" - which means that Dominion ships weren't going to defend themselves nor attack. Jim's decision was wise: Battlecruiser-wise it was 3 vs 1, while by storming he was likely to kill Arcturius - and win the revolution in one move. WTH! MENGSK IS PROTIS!??!??!?!? | ||
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Billy_
461 Posts
On October 14 2010 20:08 BadStigma wrote: Battle Cruisers have Shields??, in the cinematic its was a statement as if it comes standard with shields? Ignoring the ingame upgrade which is a temporary once off use. Thats was my biggest problem with it. Battlecruisers have had shields ever since the UED attempted to capture Mengsk on Korhal during BW. When you get a choice between taking out the nukes and the starports, destroy the nukes. The BC captain clearly says "shields up, weapons online". Chalk it up to gameplay balancing mechanics. | ||
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0mar
United States567 Posts
On October 14 2010 18:48 Asx32 wrote: Mat said: "That's strange: their shields are still down" - which means that Dominion ships weren't going to defend themselves nor attack. Jim's decision was wise: Battlecruiser-wise it was 3 vs 1, while by storming he was likely to kill Arcturius - and win the revolution in one move. That's retarded. It's like saying "The suspect has his gun lowered, rush him!". If the Dominion fleet was truly benign, then Valerian should have sent out a hail. Raynor is equally stupid because a boarding maneuver is one of the most hostile moves you can do. You have practically touch the BCs together, cut a hole into the enemy BC and then send troops in. In the time that it takes to do all that, the rest of the fleet could have reduced Raynor into slag. The action within Valerian's ship is equally dumb. All it would take is one decent line-up and Raynor/Tychus would have bitten the bullet. If Raynor didn't want to kill Arcturus face to face, Valerian would have been shot in an instant. The only way this entire sequence of events makes sense is if both Valerian and Raynor knew they couldn't die due to their plot armor. Any other explanation simply ignores reality. | ||
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Billy_
461 Posts
That's retarded. It's like saying "The suspect has his gun lowered, rush him!". Actually it's probably more like "The suspect has kicked his gun away and has stripped naked, layed face down and has hands behind his head" The cruiser is easily yamato blastable, and how likely is it that you can blow up one docked battlecruiser without destroying the other in the blast? | ||
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ghostunit
61 Posts
Are the writers really that lazy or did they just think we were idiots? Actually, everything about this scene is stupid. The mere idea of boarding, the stupid fight cinematic in the BC's corridors, the looong zoom-in into the label of the flash grenade (hey, we get your bad joke ok, you don't have to hold the camera shot there as if we could only read a letter per second), the whole idea of Valerian having planned it all along, Valerian's bizarre way of thinking "hey, I know, instead of contacting them, I'll just let Raynor board me and kill my men, then we will surely be allies!" and so on. Ugh, SC2's "plot" makes me angry just to think about it. It's like the star wars prequels. | ||
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Billy_
461 Posts
On October 15 2010 02:39 ghostunit wrote: The moment I heard "the battlecruisers' shields are down" the whole scene died to me. Since when do BCs have shields??? it makes no sense in the SC universe. Are the writers really that lazy or did they just think we were idiots? Yeah, they had shields since BW. I am not making this up. Go watch a lets play of the UED campaign if you forgot. Whatever. I think the problem is you though. you've grown up and matured while Blizzard have not. I can name a few things from BW which are as unbelievable as anything from that cinematic simply because Blizzard thinks it's cool. Actually, everything about this scene is stupid. The mere idea of boarding, the stupid fight cinematic in the BC's corridors It's better odds than 1 vs 3 battlecruisers. | ||
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ghostunit
61 Posts
The thing is that in SC, the shields mention is easily interpretable as the kind of terran-feasible shielding mentioned above, just some irrelevant technicality that makes no harm to the consistency of the plot/world. I still wouldn't have put it though, or at least would have written specifically the kind of shielding referred, but anyways. But in this SC2 scene the "shields" are mentioned as if they were Protoss-like, defensive shields. And their being down the key factor in making the BC boarding possible. A fast one the writers try to slip past us, and that suddenly activates our brains to think "huh? wtf?" instantly and instinctively killing all suspension of disbelief. You do not want to do this as a story-writer, ever. | ||
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SoaDMTGguy
United States47 Posts
When we are playing StarCraft: The RTS, we expect that units will behave in ways which are not really realistic (two tanks are bigger then one medivac for instance. Or better yet, how can a single barracks produce an infinite stream of marines? I get that you could build the guns and armor with the 50 minerals, but where the heck to all those people come from?). When we are watching StarCraft: The Science Fiction Movie, however, units can be represented in their "true" forms and with their true abilities. In the "real" StarCraft universe, battle cruisers are massive ships, capable of launching entire armies, much like the Galactica in BSG or the Enterprise in StarTrek. It makes perfect sense that they would have shields. | ||
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Kishuu
Brazil108 Posts
Grabbing the storyline and trying to make sense out of it based on gameplay mechanics is not something that you should do. They'll be different for a very broad variety of reasons and that's the way it is. Not trying to sound like a dickhead but you guys are stretching it up too much. | ||
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0mar
United States567 Posts
On October 14 2010 22:44 Billy_ wrote: Actually it's probably more like "The suspect has kicked his gun away and has stripped naked, layed face down and has hands behind his head" The cruiser is easily yamato blastable, and how likely is it that you can blow up one docked battlecruiser without destroying the other in the blast? BCs have more weapons than just yamato. If Raynor yamato'ed Valerian's flagship, his own ship would be reduced to slag in a second. We are talking half the Dominion fleet. The rest of the fleet could launch wraiths/vikings, concentrate fire on the Hyperion and end Raynor's story right there if the fleet was truly hostile. Letting the Hyperion dock and board the flagship is a suicidal move, no matter how you cut it. Just because the shields are down doesn't mean all the weapons are powered down. The only explanation that works is that Valerian/Raynor know about their plot armor and abused it in front of us. Nothing else works. It's just a retarded scene all around. | ||
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FinestHour
United States18466 Posts
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Kipsate
Netherlands45349 Posts
I don't see kerrigan throwing an shadow like energy ball either(zeratul cinematic) she has storm and phoenix like liftoff capabilities. Cinematics are simply different then ingame that is all | ||
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0mar
United States567 Posts
On October 15 2010 07:26 FinestHour wrote: my question is why the enemy battlecruiser only sent 3 marines to stop him Why send any at all. Valerian had no intention of killing/capturing Raynor. Needless sacrifice of men is not the hallmark of a good commander, which is apparently what Valerian is aspiring to be. It also kills morale. | ||
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Billy_
461 Posts
On October 15 2010 07:46 0mar wrote: Why send any at all. Valerian had no intention of killing/capturing Raynor. Needless sacrifice of men is not the hallmark of a good commander, which is apparently what Valerian is aspiring to be. It also kills morale. The novels probably have an answer to that. Marines generally go throguh resocialisation due to the fact that Mengsks favorite retruiting stations include miximum security prisons. The marines are for all intents and purposes completely docile zombie slaves not capable of insubordination which kind of fits in with the whole brutal regime that Mengsk has going on. Guess Valarian might have instructed the marines to go easy and miss delieberatly? And Raynor never gave him much of a chance to communicate peacefully. | ||
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n00bination
United States102 Posts
The novels probably have an answer to that. Marines generally go throguh resocialisation due to the fact that Mengsks favorite retruiting stations include miximum security prisons. The marines are for all intents and purposes completely docile zombie slaves not capable of insubordination which kind of fits in with the whole brutal regime that Mengsk has going on. Guess Valarian might have instructed the marines to go easy and miss delieberatly? And Raynor never gave him much of a chance to Last edit: 2010-10-15 09:21:48 communicate peacefully. The resocialization isn't complete, though. Marines still have some semblance of free will. It's only under the influence of stims do they turn into mindless subservient zombies. Also, I don't think Valerian was in direct command of the marines, but rather General Warfield, which makes no sense seeing as how he probably wouldn't want to just throw his own men away. | ||
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0mar
United States567 Posts
On October 15 2010 11:26 n00bination wrote: The resocialization isn't complete, though. Marines still have some semblance of free will. It's only under the influence of stims do they turn into mindless subservient zombies. Also, I don't think Valerian was in direct command of the marines, but rather General Warfield, which makes no sense seeing as how he probably wouldn't want to just throw his own men away. yea, that's even worse when you consider that Warfield knew about Valerian's plan to assault Char. There's no need to throw away soldiers especially when those soldiers could potentially kill the ally Valerian wanted. Every available man would have been crucial considering the odds Valerian thrust the fleet into. | ||
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KnightOfNi
United States1508 Posts
On October 15 2010 04:12 Kishuu wrote: What you guys need to understand is that Jim doesn't ride a normal battlecruiser. It is the fucking Hyperion and he can have INTERCEPTORS on that shit if he wants to. Grabbing the storyline and trying to make sense out of it based on gameplay mechanics is not something that you should do. They'll be different for a very broad variety of reasons and that's the way it is. Not trying to sound like a dickhead but you guys are stretching it up too much. This ^^ In fact, if you actually played the campaign and got the BC upgrades, one of them is a GIANT FUCKING SHIELD THAT ABSORBS 300 DAMAGE. So in other words, the shields are even in the campaign BCs that you get so stop bitching about that minor detail pl0x. | ||
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Billy_
461 Posts
On October 15 2010 11:50 0mar wrote: yea, that's even worse when you consider that Warfield knew about Valerian's plan to assault Char. There's no need to throw away soldiers especially when those soldiers could potentially kill the ally Valerian wanted. Every available man would have been crucial considering the odds Valerian thrust the fleet into. It's only 150 minerals so it's all good. | ||
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apexplosive
52 Posts
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TedJustice
Canada1324 Posts
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RoKetha
United States211 Posts
On October 14 2010 20:27 Billy_ wrote: Battlecruisers have had shields ever since the UED attempted to capture Mengsk on Korhal during BW. When you get a choice between taking out the nukes and the starports, destroy the nukes. The BC captain clearly says "shields up, weapons online". Chalk it up to gameplay balancing mechanics. Well, that's a direct rip of one of the Battlecruiser annoyed quotes that had been in since vanilla. The next one in the series is, "Not equipped with shields? ...Well then, buckle up!" It's a convoluted mess, really. I was still under the impression that they did not have shields until that cutscene--and SC2's story is pretty full of rewrites, so there's no guarantee they were really thinking about it when they wrote that line. I'd bet the novels mention shields a bunch though since it's such a common sci-fi trope. | ||
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iGrok
United States5142 Posts
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Protoss_Carrier
414 Posts
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Billy_
461 Posts
Yeah, a shieldless Battlecruiser surviving insanely fast speeds is a bit hard to believe if you think about it. | ||
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Ghidrah
United States33 Posts
On October 14 2010 20:27 Billy_ wrote: Like I said, Jim had the right idea. Valarian just seemed needlessly reckless in that cinematic, almost like he had a death wish. It must have taken Jim some discipline to not just kill Valarian right away. Then Val looke incompetent when the Zerg surprised him while orbiting Char and needed Jim and Warfield to salvage the trainwreck of an invasion fleet. Battlecruisers have had shields ever since the UED attempted to capture Mengsk on Korhal during BW. When you get a choice between taking out the nukes and the starports, destroy the nukes. The BC captain clearly says "shields up, weapons online". Chalk it up to gameplay balancing mechanics. In the same Level the next time the enemy battlecrusiers move they say "Not Equipped with shield? Better Buckle Up..." So this in its self proves that shields are not something that comes standard with a battlecrusier at that time. I believe that his statement about their shields not being up could be a little Easter egg for nerds like me to nerdgasm as the developers and scriptwriters have no idea what game they are making, or where it has been in the past.  | ||
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Chocobo
United States1108 Posts
2) Star Trek exists. This means any dialogue written for a scene involving multiple spaceships will mention a ship's shields, without exception. 3) If you're the type that likes to bend dialogue mistakes into something that could possible make sense, then pretend he was referring to small shields around the doors (or whatever the hell method they used to board the ship). 4) You can also consider the BC's entire HP pool "shields" and that it blows up once they're all gone, (mostly) similar to Star Trek. 5) WHO EFFING CARES In response to the OP: I think people read wayyyyyyy more into these game scenes than was really intended... people are trying to decipher a character's true intentions, or figure out why they allowed certain things to happen... when honestly I think the reality is that someone was assigned the job of "write a scene where Raynor meets Valerian, and make it look really cool, like something out of a big movie." | ||
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Ronald_McD
Canada807 Posts
If you read the Dark Templar Saga books (which are canon to the storyline I think), you see he's simply an itellect with a passion for artifacts and knowledge. | ||
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.Aar
2177 Posts
And yeah this scene bothered me a bit. Kind of showed Valerian to be a total douchebag. "Oh you killed some of my men? It's cool. Let me tell you about this fabulous new plan I have for you to make me an awesome Emperor." | ||
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theossy
Denmark2 Posts
Think of how agreable Warfield, the marines, or ANYBODY other than Valerian and Jimmy would have been with that idea right off the bat. Maybe they would've followed him blindly, maybe they wouldn't - I just get why he would wanna keep the plan a secret until set in motion. Also, despite Valerian uttering that his ambitions are becoming a better leader than his father ever was and all that jazz, we don't know whether he is bluffing in front of Raynor, trying to pursuade him, and just wants power, or if he is actually being sincere. so my point is, there are numerable reasons as to why the marines would still attack Jim and Tychus. True, Valerian might have wanted to take some precautions concidering Jim kinda was his key to overthrowing his father's rule.. But yeah well, once more - cinematics and the universe exist by their own rules. That is why it is so epic. I get and still at the same time don't get why y'all are so eager to make it make perfect realistic sense. And I hate myself for repeating this, but I so strongly agree with everybody that has voiced the fact that GAMEPLAY =/= CINEMATICS/LORE/UNIVERSE for veeeery good reasons | ||
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Cyber_Cheese
Australia3615 Posts
On October 14 2010 22:44 Billy_ wrote: Actually it's probably more like "The suspect has kicked his gun away and has stripped naked, layed face down and has hands behind his head" The cruiser is easily yamato blastable, and how likely is it that you can blow up one docked battlecruiser without destroying the other in the blast? yamato cannon doesnt do any splash damage, so theres no chance of the blast destroying both ships On October 22 2010 08:29 theossy wrote: But yeah well, once more - cinematics and the universe exist by their own rules. That is why it is so epic. I get and still at the same time don't get why y'all are so eager to make it make perfect realistic sense. And I hate myself for repeating this, but I so strongly agree with everybody that has voiced the fact that GAMEPLAY =/= CINEMATICS/LORE/UNIVERSE for veeeery good reasons i disagree, sc:bw did it rather well | ||
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On October 22 2010 10:12 Cyber_Cheese wrote: yamato cannon doesnt do any splash damage, so theres no chance of the blast destroying both ships Try blowing up one of pretty much any vehicle next to another vehicle of the same type and see what happens. | ||
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brelun
United States1 Post
2) move to armory (cargo bay) 3) look at the back 4) realize the only thing seperating jim and claw man from space is a shield(similar to protoss's) 5) then realize this cargo bay and many other similar bays(since armies/ccs are deployed from these ships) grant super easy access to the ship. 6) shields are down-->> easy access 7)??? 8) Profit | ||
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
On October 15 2010 02:39 ghostunit wrote: The moment I heard "the battlecruisers' shields are down" the whole scene died to me. Since when do BCs have shields??? it makes no sense in the SC universe. Are the writers really that lazy or did they just think we were idiots? Defensive Matrix. In SC2, it's an upgrade for BCs in SC2 gives them a 300 hp shield. It was in BW too (on science vessels, of course) Stop saying terrans have no clue what a shield is! Though in BW, the BC captains would say "Shields up, weapons online." and then "Not equipped with shields... well, buckle up!" | ||
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0mar
United States567 Posts
On October 22 2010 08:29 theossy wrote: Think about it ladies. Valerian's plan really is "Ally with Jim, openly confront father (the current emperor) with the fact that said rebel leader now is indeed an ally, assault the Zerg primary hive cluster on Char and simply let Jim pacify/turn the meanest, scarriest alien bitch ever... with an ancient xel'naga artifact (what are the odds most of Valerian's staff/personell even have a clue about xel'naga and protoss lore/myth?) " Think of how agreable Warfield, the marines, or ANYBODY other than Valerian and Jimmy would have been with that idea right off the bat. Maybe they would've followed him blindly, maybe they wouldn't - I just get why he would wanna keep the plan a secret until set in motion. Also, despite Valerian uttering that his ambitions are becoming a better leader than his father ever was and all that jazz, we don't know whether he is bluffing in front of Raynor, trying to pursuade him, and just wants power, or if he is actually being sincere. so my point is, there are numerable reasons as to why the marines would still attack Jim and Tychus. True, Valerian might have wanted to take some precautions concidering Jim kinda was his key to overthrowing his father's rule.. But yeah well, once more - cinematics and the universe exist by their own rules. That is why it is so epic. I get and still at the same time don't get why y'all are so eager to make it make perfect realistic sense. And I hate myself for repeating this, but I so strongly agree with everybody that has voiced the fact that GAMEPLAY =/= CINEMATICS/LORE/UNIVERSE for veeeery good reasons This explanation is even worse. It shows that there's no chain of command under Valerian. That's the whole point of the military. You a job/role and you do it without regard to your own feelings. If every soldier starting have second thoughts about his/her job, the entire system collapses. The marines should have known the plan from the second they entered Hyperion sensor range. Either Valerian/Warfield are incompetent leaders sending soldiers needlessly to their deaths or there is a distinct lack of discipline pervading Valerian's marine corps. There is no other explanation that works without invoking Raynor/Valerian being aware of their plot armor. Secondly, Warfield was brought out of retirement by Valerian for precisely assaulting Char. He knew about the plan from the very beginning. However, he deferred judgment regarding Raynor to Valerian, which is why he doesn't shoot you or arrest you as soon as he sees you. No matter how you try to spin it, this scene was just god awful. | ||
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Metallingus
Philippines468 Posts
It's pretty idiotic to insist that BCs have no shields just because they don't have the pretty blue numbers in-game. Simply because: Game mechanics =/= canon Considering that the Bucephalus is the Emperor's damn flagship, it's safe to assume that it's outfitted with ordinance far beyond the norm. What people tend to forget is that yes, the Hyperion is no ordinary Battlecruiser but compared to the Bucephalus, it's an old model. I doubt that such an important craft boarded by the heir to the "throne" would be escorted by just any run off the mill cruisers either. | ||
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catabowl
United States815 Posts
On October 22 2010 04:57 Ronald_McD wrote: Valerian is not cold and ruthless. If you read the Dark Templar Saga books (which are canon to the storyline I think), you see he's simply an itellect with a passion for artifacts and knowledge. ^--- This If you have time, read the trilogy. Valerian is a very calculating person. Also, the Nova book is pretty good too. I'm hoping for a Kerrigan vs Nova showdown in one of the expo packs. (Maybe as a bonus mission or something) | ||
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Kwidowmaker
Canada978 Posts
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