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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51449 Posts
On February 24 2015 03:38 SantosPhillipCarlo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2015 22:58 Pandemona wrote:
Im not sure, when is the last time England played "expansive" cricket, probably under Fletcher but that was mainly due to having the likes of Pietersen and Flintoff in the team at the same time.
But yeah i think the whole selectors and board at the ECB have to have a look at the way they coach/set the team up/play.
Take a note of the Aussies which everyone screamed at us to do 10 years ago and actually do it this time xD Could we throw the Andy Flower era (particularly 2009-2011) in there? I know that team only reached the World Cup quarters, but I also look at two Ashes series wins (including one in Australia) and the World T20 title.
It's not that im moaning about its the fact that in ODI cricket England play slow and boring cricket. They all had good eras in test cricket and T20 we are not "terrible" due to playing some guys that are attackers.
In ODI they just terribly slow. No flair players at all
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On February 24 2015 04:42 Pandemona wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2015 03:38 SantosPhillipCarlo wrote:On February 23 2015 22:58 Pandemona wrote:
Im not sure, when is the last time England played "expansive" cricket, probably under Fletcher but that was mainly due to having the likes of Pietersen and Flintoff in the team at the same time.
But yeah i think the whole selectors and board at the ECB have to have a look at the way they coach/set the team up/play.
Take a note of the Aussies which everyone screamed at us to do 10 years ago and actually do it this time xD Could we throw the Andy Flower era (particularly 2009-2011) in there? I know that team only reached the World Cup quarters, but I also look at two Ashes series wins (including one in Australia) and the World T20 title. It's not that im moaning about its the fact that in ODI cricket England play slow and boring cricket. They all had good eras in test cricket and T20 we are not "terrible" due to playing some guys that are attackers. In ODI they just terribly slow. No flair players at all
I don't know what it is about the 50-over format that spooks these folks. Maybe we could talk about the fact that folks who have succeeded at T20 level are not in play such as Craig Kieswetter (not in the squad) and Alex Hales (in the squad but not playing.)
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On February 23 2015 21:54 Pandemona wrote:
New Zealand playing much better than India and Sri Lanka but the squad is not as good as either of those on paper. At this moment in time considering form and home crowd you would put them as joint favorites with Aussies to win the whole thing. Which imo is just purely down to brute force attacking batsman they have.
I always go back to the way the Aussies approached one day cricket when they had Hayden and Gillie opening the batting. That for me is how you should play ODI cricket, your 3rd and 4th choice batsman should be the knock it around guys whist the 2 openers should be the ones to abuse the power play for 10 overs and get a good start. Doesn't work all the time i agree but im pretty sure it is the best way to play ODI cricket, especially due to the amounts of T20 cricket and the mindset.
Wowowowwo slow down...
For starters. Sri Lanka is fielding their weakest team in a decade they are not on paper better than New Zealand. India too on paper are not better than New Zealand. Not even a bit. India has a strong batting lineup but is in no way vastly superior to NZ. The only position that India has New Zealand beat position for position is perhaps the second opener slot. I rate Sharma more than Guptill, and Sharma has been garbatge.
Thats about it. On current form even Williamson gives Kohli a run for his money so Im not giving him the edge there. Additionally and this is the most important part. New Zealand has the most potent new ball pair in the game and has for a while.
Now lets move on to "Aussies approach". The only reason Hayden and Gillie played the way they did was because thats how Hayden and Gillie played. And thats frankly pretty much how Warner and Finch play to. They had no such culture of opening bats like that prior to this. The closest anyone got to that would be Michael Slater, and maybe Dean Jones before him. Waugh (Mark) was a touch player, Taylor was like his nickname a tubby sort of cricketer. So it wasnt really the "Aussie approach". That would be giving them credit for something they didnt come up with.
It was actually Sri Lanka in 96 who came up with the idea of abusing the 15 over restriction (at the time) or as you would the powerplay to attack. Jayasuriya got a man of the tournament out of it. Also helps it was the subcontinent where he could short arm jab cuts and pulls on length balls around off stump, but thats besides the point.
Teams also bat very low these days. So the wickets in hand with a solid 4.5-5.5 an over is a more dominant batting strategy.
Nearly every team has competent hitters all the way down to 7 or 8. Atleast the established test playing nations do for sure.
Now as fun as clobbering teams in the powerplay sounds, with 2 new balls and the fact that we are finally having a world cup on pitches that have some juice + Show Spoiler +(although still watered down to suit batsmen. Oh Hai BCCI, enjoying running cricket?)
If anything this worldcup has proven, its that being circumspect early on and building an innings means you are nearly guaranteed a 300+ score unless your team cocks up. No one has been a better reflection of this than Dhawan. Need other examples ?
Williamson, Finch, Coetzer, Kohli, Joyce and a few others I cant think off but I know they are there...
And in this era of lousy temperaments scoreboard pressure is by far the biggest factor if you can put a string of balls in the same place. The SA - India is a pretty good indication of that aswell. I pick that one because Pakistan cocking up a chase of anything over 220 is standard and most of the other teams chasing 300 had a decent go of it but were never likely to chase it. Ireland ofcourse did.
Finally I dont think you can be to harsh on England. Yeah they got destroyed but to be fair they also played the 2 best teams at the tournament and at their home venues no less. Doesnt get harder than that. I expect they will qualify and lose their quarter. Thats about as good as they are.
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India's bowling is too weak. Their spinners aren't suited to Australian conditions. If their batting doesn't fire they're in big trouble.
I think it will come down to aus, nz, India and SA. From there it's a bit of a lottery given knockout format.
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On February 24 2015 08:12 RowdierBob wrote:
India's bowling is too weak. Their spinners aren't suited to Australian conditions. If their batting doesn't fire they're in big trouble.
I think it will come down to aus, nz, India and SA. From there it's a bit of a lottery given knockout format.
I think Australia NZ will be a big game in seeing how the rest of the tournament might go
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On February 24 2015 06:06 Pandemona wrote:
I still see Sri Lanka and India much deeper roster wise than New Zealand though, even if Sharma is out for India.
Initially, I would be inclined to agree, but I don't think the gap is that big. Since Zaheer Khan and RP Singh aren't here, India doesn't have a fast bowler to match Southee (which is something Sri Lanka can lay claim to because of Malinga.) Spin-wise...Hmm. No side that I can think of in this tournament has a real spin king, especially since Sunil Narine withdrew from the West Indian squad. Batting...I think that's where India and Sri Lanka have advantages since they're a bit deeper (though Brendon McCullum, in this form, is a match for any other batter in this tournament.)
On February 24 2015 08:34 Cricketer12 wrote:
I think Australia-NZ will be a big game in seeing how the rest of the tournament might go
I really think so too. The way things are going, don't be surprised if that game determines who wins Pool A.
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Guys, if you're not watching the West Indies against Zimbabwe, do so now. Chris Gayle just became the first non-Indian to hit a double century and the first to do it in a World Cup!
Edit: In the books. 215 from 147 balls with ten fours and an ODI co-world record 16 sixes. Highest score in a World Cup and the third highest score ever in an ODI. The only other players to have hit one-day double hundreds are (in order) Sachin Tendulkar, Virender Sehwag and Rohit Sharma (twice). Amidst all this, Marlon Samuels also got a century and finished 133 not out.
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Also the highest partnership in ODI history
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On February 24 2015 06:06 Pandemona wrote:Well you say the Aussies dont have an approach but from my knowledge of 1995 cricket onwards they always seemed to be the guys going after you in all formats of the game, aggressive strong cricket. The most bamboozling of this is they have yet to win a T20 world cup due to how good they seem to be in terms of aggressors. Always seems to be a new guy coming through ready to smash a 100 off 50 balls etc. Might just be what i watch though but i try to keep up to date with alot  I still see Sri Lanka and India much deeper roster wise than New Zealand though, even if Sharma is out for India.
Australia being aggressive cricketers has been the case since forever.Thats their nature But being aggressive cricketers doesnt mean anything in terms of being attacking against the new ball. They tend to respect it and keep a healthy rate. They dont try to kill it.
Look at Gayle's innings today
0-50: 51 balls
51-100: 54 balls
101-150: 22 balls
151-200: 12 balls
hes followed the same thing I mentioned earlier. The boundaries are short and the end of the powerplay just means one extra fielder outside the ring. The powerplay thing doesnt matter much anymore.
As I said Sri Lanka has a weak roster. They are relying on their old guard tor ride through this worldcup. They will drop significantly when the big 3 and Malinga retire after the world cup. Those 4 are pretty much the whole team.So I dont know what depth you are talking about.
Mathews has a lot of heavy lifting in his career for the next few years.
India has garbage bowling. When your best bowler is Ravi Ashwin in Australia you dont have much going for you. Yes they beat SA but again like, I said yesterday scoreboard pressure will turn the most toothless attack into demons if they are accurate enough. Ishant Sharma is also a shit bowler. Their batting ofcourse is world class no doubt
Look at the end of the day just look at their averages and compare them position for position. That is plenty of evidence on its own..
As for Australia having new guys smashing 100 of 50. Not sure what you watch but they arent very high or often in the list of people doing stuff like that. Part of that is that they dont get to play on flat decks or tiny grounds but they arent anywhere near there
T20 cricket rewards bits and pieces cricket. There is nothing surprising about Australia not having won a T20. They dont treat it with the sort of priority they do test and 50 over cricket.
Im that guy who gets up to watch test matches at 5 am CET. Believe me I know what im talking about.
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On February 24 2015 16:16 tehh4ck3r wrote:
What an innings!
On February 24 2015 16:16 Ultimo Hombre wrote:
Also the highest partnership in ODI history
More records broken there than we could shake a bat at. Here are a few big ones we haven't mentioned too much (the second is what you're talking about, Ultimo:
- Highest ODI score by a West Indian (previous record: 189 not out by Sir Viv Richards against England in 1984)
- Highest-scoring partnership in any ODI (with Marlon Samuels) (previous record: 331 by Rahul Dravid and Sourav Ganguly against New Zealand in 1999)
- First player to record a T20 international century, an ODI double century and a Test triple century
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On February 24 2015 16:23 SantosPhillipCarlo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2015 16:16 Ultimo Hombre wrote:
Also the highest partnership in ODI history More records broken there than we could shake a bat at. Here are two big ones we haven't mentioned too much (the second is what you're talking about, Ultimo: - Highest ODI score by a West Indian (previous record: 189 not out by Sir Viv Richards against England in 1984)
- Highest-scoring partnership in any ODI (with Marlon Samuels) (previous record: 331 by Rahul Dravid and Sourav Ganguly against New Zealand in 1999)
Not NZ, it was Sri Lanka at Taunton in the world cup. Ganguly went on a inside out six party and Dravid was just solid hitting safe shots for 4. India scored over 400 that day.
Most batting records in world cups involve Zimbabwe, Sri Lanka and random associates. There is no coincidence there. Its just weaker attacks that eventually hit a destructive batsmen on a good day. Top level opposition doesnt let you do that. Sri Lanka minus Murli and Vaas or Murli on a bad day are a pathetic bowling attack.
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On February 24 2015 16:42 Rebs wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2015 16:23 SantosPhillipCarlo wrote:On February 24 2015 16:16 tehh4ck3r wrote:
What an innings! On February 24 2015 16:16 Ultimo Hombre wrote:
Also the highest partnership in ODI history More records broken there than we could shake a bat at. Here are two big ones we haven't mentioned too much (the second is what you're talking about, Ultimo: - Highest ODI score by a West Indian (previous record: 189 not out by Sir Viv Richards against England in 1984)
- Highest-scoring partnership in any ODI (with Marlon Samuels) (previous record: 331 by Rahul Dravid and Sourav Ganguly against New Zealand in 1999)
Not NZ, it was Sri Lanka at Taunton in the World Cup. Ganguly went on a inside out six party and Dravid was just solid hitting safe shots for 4. India scored over 400 that day. Most batting records in world cups involve Zimbabwe, Sri Lanka and random associates. There is no coincidence there. Its just weaker attacks that eventually hit a destructive batsmen on a good day. Top level opposition doesn't let you do that. Sri Lanka minus Murali and Vaas or Murali on a bad day are a pathetic bowling attack.
Okay. That's just what the Cricinfo commentary was saying. And I understand Zimbabwe doesn't have Australia's or New Zealand's bowling attack, but I don't think either of us could simply go out and score a double ton in any World Cup game, right?
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On February 24 2015 16:47 SantosPhillipCarlo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2015 16:42 Rebs wrote:On February 24 2015 16:23 SantosPhillipCarlo wrote:On February 24 2015 16:16 tehh4ck3r wrote:
What an innings! On February 24 2015 16:16 Ultimo Hombre wrote:
Also the highest partnership in ODI history More records broken there than we could shake a bat at. Here are two big ones we haven't mentioned too much (the second is what you're talking about, Ultimo: - Highest ODI score by a West Indian (previous record: 189 not out by Sir Viv Richards against England in 1984)
- Highest-scoring partnership in any ODI (with Marlon Samuels) (previous record: 331 by Rahul Dravid and Sourav Ganguly against New Zealand in 1999)
Not NZ, it was Sri Lanka at Taunton in the World Cup. Ganguly went on a inside out six party and Dravid was just solid hitting safe shots for 4. India scored over 400 that day. Most batting records in world cups involve Zimbabwe, Sri Lanka and random associates. There is no coincidence there. Its just weaker attacks that eventually hit a destructive batsmen on a good day. Top level opposition doesn't let you do that. Sri Lanka minus Murali and Vaas or Murali on a bad day are a pathetic bowling attack. Okay. That's just what the Cricinfo commentary was saying. And I understand Zimbabwe doesn't have Australia's or New Zealand's bowling attack, but I don't think either of us could simply go out and score a double ton in any World Cup game, right?
Im not discounting the achievement but the list provides evidence to suggest that if you remove associates and Zimbabwe from the equation all of sudden the reading isnt pretty.
Im not saying anyone can do it. I'm saying whoever can do it is doing it against very very weak lineups. Good teams find a way to avoid being murdered.
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On February 24 2015 16:52 Rebs wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2015 16:47 SantosPhillipCarlo wrote:On February 24 2015 16:42 Rebs wrote:On February 24 2015 16:23 SantosPhillipCarlo wrote:On February 24 2015 16:16 tehh4ck3r wrote:
What an innings! On February 24 2015 16:16 Ultimo Hombre wrote:
Also the highest partnership in ODI history More records broken there than we could shake a bat at. Here are two big ones we haven't mentioned too much (the second is what you're talking about, Ultimo: - Highest ODI score by a West Indian (previous record: 189 not out by Sir Viv Richards against England in 1984)
- Highest-scoring partnership in any ODI (with Marlon Samuels) (previous record: 331 by Rahul Dravid and Sourav Ganguly against New Zealand in 1999)
Not NZ, it was Sri Lanka at Taunton in the World Cup. Ganguly went on a inside out six party and Dravid was just solid hitting safe shots for 4. India scored over 400 that day. Most batting records in world cups involve Zimbabwe, Sri Lanka and random associates. There is no coincidence there. Its just weaker attacks that eventually hit a destructive batsmen on a good day. Top level opposition doesn't let you do that. Sri Lanka minus Murali and Vaas or Murali on a bad day are a pathetic bowling attack. Okay. That's just what the Cricinfo commentary was saying. And I understand Zimbabwe doesn't have Australia's or New Zealand's bowling attack, but I don't think either of us could simply go out and score a double ton in any World Cup game, right? I'm not discounting the achievement but the list provides evidence to suggest that if you remove associates and Zimbabwe from the equation all of sudden the reading isnt pretty. I'm not saying anyone can do it. I'm saying whoever can do it is doing it against very very weak lineups. Good teams find a way to avoid being murdered.
Sometimes, but not all the time. Sachin's original was against South Africa with Dale Steyn and Jacques Kallis in their bowling attack and one of Sharma's was against Australia...no, wait, they did have an uncharacteristically soft attack there too. Saeed Anwar also darn near did it against India.
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On February 24 2015 16:56 SantosPhillipCarlo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2015 16:52 Rebs wrote:On February 24 2015 16:47 SantosPhillipCarlo wrote:On February 24 2015 16:42 Rebs wrote:On February 24 2015 16:23 SantosPhillipCarlo wrote:On February 24 2015 16:16 tehh4ck3r wrote:
What an innings! On February 24 2015 16:16 Ultimo Hombre wrote:
Also the highest partnership in ODI history More records broken there than we could shake a bat at. Here are two big ones we haven't mentioned too much (the second is what you're talking about, Ultimo: - Highest ODI score by a West Indian (previous record: 189 not out by Sir Viv Richards against England in 1984)
- Highest-scoring partnership in any ODI (with Marlon Samuels) (previous record: 331 by Rahul Dravid and Sourav Ganguly against New Zealand in 1999)
Not NZ, it was Sri Lanka at Taunton in the World Cup. Ganguly went on a inside out six party and Dravid was just solid hitting safe shots for 4. India scored over 400 that day. Most batting records in world cups involve Zimbabwe, Sri Lanka and random associates. There is no coincidence there. Its just weaker attacks that eventually hit a destructive batsmen on a good day. Top level opposition doesn't let you do that. Sri Lanka minus Murali and Vaas or Murali on a bad day are a pathetic bowling attack. Okay. That's just what the Cricinfo commentary was saying. And I understand Zimbabwe doesn't have Australia's or New Zealand's bowling attack, but I don't think either of us could simply go out and score a double ton in any World Cup game, right? I'm not discounting the achievement but the list provides evidence to suggest that if you remove associates and Zimbabwe from the equation all of sudden the reading isnt pretty. I'm not saying anyone can do it. I'm saying whoever can do it is doing it against very very weak lineups. Good teams find a way to avoid being murdered. Sometimes, but not all the time. Sachin's original was against South Africa and one of Sharma's was against Australia. Saeed Anwar also darn near did it against India.
All of which were in India on the flatest T20 decks imaginable. That isnt the scope of our discussion though. Because while its not like everyone is going around scoring 200+ in ODI's not everyone gets to play day in day out on flat decks either like the Indians do and they invest alottttt in it. Like more than the rest of the world combined so fair credit.
I was talking with respect to world cups. 9 of the top 10 WC scores involve Sri Lanka, Zimbabwe, Namibia, East Africa and the UAE. With Gayles 200 that makes it 10 out of 10.
Zimbabwe and Sri Lanka feature more often because they made every world cup for the past 40 years so more chances for someone to throttle them. Sri Lanka without Murali Vaas or a health Malinga are a joke
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On February 24 2015 17:05 Rebs wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2015 16:56 SantosPhillipCarlo wrote:On February 24 2015 16:52 Rebs wrote:On February 24 2015 16:47 SantosPhillipCarlo wrote:On February 24 2015 16:42 Rebs wrote:On February 24 2015 16:23 SantosPhillipCarlo wrote:On February 24 2015 16:16 tehh4ck3r wrote:
What an innings! On February 24 2015 16:16 Ultimo Hombre wrote:
Also the highest partnership in ODI history More records broken there than we could shake a bat at. Here are two big ones we haven't mentioned too much (the second is what you're talking about, Ultimo: - Highest ODI score by a West Indian (previous record: 189 not out by Sir Viv Richards against England in 1984)
- Highest-scoring partnership in any ODI (with Marlon Samuels) (previous record: 331 by Rahul Dravid and Sourav Ganguly against New Zealand in 1999)
Not NZ, it was Sri Lanka at Taunton in the World Cup. Ganguly went on a inside out six party and Dravid was just solid hitting safe shots for 4. India scored over 400 that day. Most batting records in world cups involve Zimbabwe, Sri Lanka and random associates. There is no coincidence there. Its just weaker attacks that eventually hit a destructive batsmen on a good day. Top level opposition doesn't let you do that. Sri Lanka minus Murali and Vaas or Murali on a bad day are a pathetic bowling attack. Okay. That's just what the Cricinfo commentary was saying. And I understand Zimbabwe doesn't have Australia's or New Zealand's bowling attack, but I don't think either of us could simply go out and score a double ton in any World Cup game, right? I'm not discounting the achievement but the list provides evidence to suggest that if you remove associates and Zimbabwe from the equation all of sudden the reading isnt pretty. I'm not saying anyone can do it. I'm saying whoever can do it is doing it against very very weak lineups. Good teams find a way to avoid being murdered. Sometimes, but not all the time. Sachin's original was against South Africa and one of Sharma's was against Australia. Saeed Anwar also darn near did it against India. All of which were in India on the flattest T20 decks imaginable. That isn't the scope of our discussion though I was talking with respect to World Cups. 9 of the top 10 WC scores involve Sri Lanka, Zimbabwe, Namibia and the UAE. Zimbabwe and Sri Lanka feature more often because they made every World Cup for the past 40 years, so more chances for someone to throttle them. Sri Lanka without Murali, Vaas or a healthy Malinga are a joke
Fair enough. I just have to wonder...when this happens, is it more about a bowling attack, captain and fielding unit being bereft of inspiration or is it more about a batsman/batter who just takes an innings by the throat and becomes unstoppable? Obviously, I don't watch as much cricket as you guys do even though I enjoy it, so I may not be the best to answer.
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On February 24 2015 17:15 SantosPhillipCarlo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2015 17:05 Rebs wrote:On February 24 2015 16:56 SantosPhillipCarlo wrote:On February 24 2015 16:52 Rebs wrote:On February 24 2015 16:47 SantosPhillipCarlo wrote:On February 24 2015 16:42 Rebs wrote:On February 24 2015 16:23 SantosPhillipCarlo wrote:On February 24 2015 16:16 tehh4ck3r wrote:
What an innings! On February 24 2015 16:16 Ultimo Hombre wrote:
Also the highest partnership in ODI history More records broken there than we could shake a bat at. Here are two big ones we haven't mentioned too much (the second is what you're talking about, Ultimo: - Highest ODI score by a West Indian (previous record: 189 not out by Sir Viv Richards against England in 1984)
- Highest-scoring partnership in any ODI (with Marlon Samuels) (previous record: 331 by Rahul Dravid and Sourav Ganguly against New Zealand in 1999)
Not NZ, it was Sri Lanka at Taunton in the World Cup. Ganguly went on a inside out six party and Dravid was just solid hitting safe shots for 4. India scored over 400 that day. Most batting records in world cups involve Zimbabwe, Sri Lanka and random associates. There is no coincidence there. Its just weaker attacks that eventually hit a destructive batsmen on a good day. Top level opposition doesn't let you do that. Sri Lanka minus Murali and Vaas or Murali on a bad day are a pathetic bowling attack. Okay. That's just what the Cricinfo commentary was saying. And I understand Zimbabwe doesn't have Australia's or New Zealand's bowling attack, but I don't think either of us could simply go out and score a double ton in any World Cup game, right? I'm not discounting the achievement but the list provides evidence to suggest that if you remove associates and Zimbabwe from the equation all of sudden the reading isnt pretty. I'm not saying anyone can do it. I'm saying whoever can do it is doing it against very very weak lineups. Good teams find a way to avoid being murdered. Sometimes, but not all the time. Sachin's original was against South Africa and one of Sharma's was against Australia. Saeed Anwar also darn near did it against India. All of which were in India on the flattest T20 decks imaginable. That isn't the scope of our discussion though I was talking with respect to World Cups. 9 of the top 10 WC scores involve Sri Lanka, Zimbabwe, Namibia and the UAE. Zimbabwe and Sri Lanka feature more often because they made every World Cup for the past 40 years, so more chances for someone to throttle them. Sri Lanka without Murali, Vaas or a healthy Malinga are a joke Fair enough. I just have to wonder...when this happens, is it more about a bowling attack, captain and fielding unit being bereft of inspiration or is it more about a batsman/batter who just takes an innings by the throat and becomes unstoppable? Obviously, I don't watch as much cricket as you guys do even though I enjoy it, so I may not be the best to answer.
Its a bit of both. When its your day its your day. No much oppositions can do about it sometimes. But all top teams have bowlers who if they do it right can stop the flow. I mean Chigumbura came threw 2 balls wide of Gayle and got him on the last one.
Everyone was offering him lengh and letting him swing close to his body. Ofcourse he will Murder you, hes a beast. Sometimes very obvious things dont occur to teams when faced with the onslaught and also it becomes sooo hard to execute when a guy whose seeing it so early and the size of a football is staring you down.
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On February 21 2015 07:01 Greg_J wrote:
I miss the glory days of Chris Gayle's Gayle storms lighting up Bangalore in the IPL. It can't be more than a couple of years ago. But he just hasn't played like that for a little while now. Wooo hooo. Gayle storm
He's taking wickets now too.
edit: Scratch 2 for this monster
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EPT
