EPTBut I'm very happy to hear that a club like Ajax is considered to be a stepping stone to a bigger club like Benfica.
2013 - 2014 Football Thread - Page 735
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warding
Portugal2397 Posts
But I'm very happy to hear that a club like Ajax is considered to be a stepping stone to a bigger club like Benfica. | ||
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Mafe
Germany5966 Posts
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zeo
Serbia6343 Posts
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smr
Germany4808 Posts
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Twisted
Netherlands13554 Posts
On April 09 2014 19:44 warding wrote: Djuricic has an attitude problem (which is different from Ola John's motivational problem), but I think he'll end up fine. He's got plenty of skill. But I'm very happy to hear that a club like Ajax is considered to be a stepping stone to a bigger club like Benfica. Ajax has a big reputation but there's a reason Benfica/Porto are in pot 1 in the drawings and Ajax in pot 3 and we haven't been in a quarter final of any European cup since 2003 (where we lost in the 90th minute to AC Milan who won it that year, where we had players like Sneijder, van der Vaart, Zlatan, Maxwell, Nigel de Jong, Pienaar, Heitinga, Witsche, Chivu, van der Meyde etc., gah we could've won it that year!). Benfica also has a way bigger budget and offers more salary so in that regard it's also a step-up. Dutch club football has been on a pretty big decline the last decade and it's showing in our national squad as well. | ||
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warding
Portugal2397 Posts
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Dust14
Belgium490 Posts
On April 09 2014 21:05 zeo wrote: Its so sad to see such big stadiums empty Due to fans causing problems in one of their previous games they had to play a game with no audience | ||
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Twisted
Netherlands13554 Posts
On April 10 2014 02:31 warding wrote: What are the reasons for that decline, in your opinion? Money mostly. When the top clubs have the same budget as bottom tier clubs in the premier league, you can't really compete anymore. Dutch talent gets bought at ages 16-20, spending a few years sitting on a bench or at home in England or wherever, so they don't have a chance to develop by playing for Dutch clubs. There is a shift towards (even) more focus on the youth academies though, so maybe that'll give incentive to our talents to stick around longer.. say at least until they're 23-24 or w/e. If you look at our selection from 2008 until now, you could field a first team with players like Suarez, Huntelaar, Eriksen, Sulejmani, Vermaelen, Vertonghen, Emanuelson, Stekelenburg, van der Wiel, Siem de Jong, Vurnon Anita, but yeah, they all leave before their prime. Obviously these players get better because they play against better opposition, but it still matters of course. Then again, the Portuguese teams have the same problem, but because they can still offer multi-million contracts, players stay longer and you get huge transfer sums because most of these players sign longer contracts than they do at Ajax. Eriksen for example pretty much had to be sold in summer 2013 because he only had one year left on his contract. That's why he was considered a bargain in England. Eriksen was a special case though. He was ready for 'the next step' but if he didn't find another club, he would sign a year-long extension (probably without added pay on his salary) because Eriksen is awesome and wants to pay back the club that gave him everything up till then. | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
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Mensol
14536 Posts
![[image loading]](http://imgim.com/alvesss.gif) Bruno Alves... my god he might be worse than Pepe. | ||
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warding
Portugal2397 Posts
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Pantagruel
United States1427 Posts
On April 10 2014 03:22 Twisted wrote: Money mostly. When the top clubs have the same budget as bottom tier clubs in the premier league, you can't really compete anymore. Dutch talent gets bought at ages 16-20, spending a few years sitting on a bench or at home in England or wherever, so they don't have a chance to develop by playing for Dutch clubs. There is a shift towards (even) more focus on the youth academies though, so maybe that'll give incentive to our talents to stick around longer.. say at least until they're 23-24 or w/e. If you look at our selection from 2008 until now, you could field a first team with players like Suarez, Huntelaar, Eriksen, Sulejmani, Vermaelen, Vertonghen, Emanuelson, Stekelenburg, van der Wiel, Siem de Jong, Vurnon Anita, but yeah, they all leave before their prime. Obviously these players get better because they play against better opposition, but it still matters of course. Then again, the Portuguese teams have the same problem, but because they can still offer multi-million contracts, players stay longer and you get huge transfer sums because most of these players sign longer contracts than they do at Ajax. Eriksen for example pretty much had to be sold in summer 2013 because he only had one year left on his contract. That's why he was considered a bargain in England. Eriksen was a special case though. He was ready for 'the next step' but if he didn't find another club, he would sign a year-long extension (probably without added pay on his salary) because Eriksen is awesome and wants to pay back the club that gave him everything up till then. Couldn't agree more with this post. Talents in the eredivisie are leaving earlier and earlier and it's mostly due to money. It's hard to blame the players of course, as it's their opportunity to make a big paycheck and as many footballers come from poor families this is an important aspect for them. Nonetheless, it's disappointing that so many players are moving to other leagues even before they are 18 nowadays and they never get to sniff first team football at any top clubs. It's ultimately damaging to both player and club in my opinion. It's hard to see how this can be overcome for Holland without more money for the clubs. It could be a very lean time for the Dutch national team as you intimated. If you look at the younger talents then Holland is doing extremely well, but at around the age group of 18 the players have t developed as well. I think a big reason for that, is that too many top talents are not involved in first team football and instead are viewed as projects on the big teams abroad. First team football is vital in my opinion to the development of a player, and it takes a truly exceptional talent to break into the first team of a club like City or Real. I think it's a very serious issue for the future of Dutch football. | ||
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warding
Portugal2397 Posts
Porto and Benfica have liabilities around 400-500 Million Euros each. Their position is not really sustainable and all Portuguese clubs are starting to turn back into homegrown talent. We do have the cultural advantage of attracting latin american talents who see PT as a stepping stone into something bigger. Still, the increase in TV revenue for English and Spanish clubs in particular makes it completely impossible for clubs from other countries to compete. http://wengerball.com/wp-content/uploads/2010-11-UCL-monies-e1323353383898.png Looking only at CL TV money, Portuguese clubs get ~2.5M while Premier league clubs get 14-27M. Any ideas of merging Dutch and Belgium leagues? That would be awesome for top clubs in both countries IMO. | ||
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aseq
Netherlands4021 Posts
On April 10 2014 11:02 Pantagruel wrote: Couldn't agree more with this post. Talents in the eredivisie are leaving earlier and earlier and it's mostly due to money. It's hard to blame the players of course, as it's their opportunity to make a big paycheck and as many footballers come from poor families this is an important aspect for them. Nonetheless, it's disappointing that so many players are moving to other leagues even before they are 18 nowadays and they never get to sniff first team football at any top clubs. It's ultimately damaging to both player and club in my opinion. It's hard to see how this can be overcome for Holland without more money for the clubs. It could be a very lean time for the Dutch national team as you intimated. If you look at the younger talents then Holland is doing extremely well, but at around the age group of 18 the players have t developed as well. I think a big reason for that, is that too many top talents are not involved in first team football and instead are viewed as projects on the big teams abroad. First team football is vital in my opinion to the development of a player, and it takes a truly exceptional talent to break into the first team of a club like City or Real. I think it's a very serious issue for the future of Dutch football. I don't have any figures about loans to back this up, but it also feels like top clubs are netting more and more players and loaning them out to develop, in order to avoid paying the big bucks when the player is 23. Half of Vitesse is a good example, but it can also stretch for years, like with Courtois. I think this cuts into profits for smaller clubs. | ||
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RvB
Netherlands6324 Posts
On April 10 2014 18:21 warding wrote: Any ideas on how to fight that trend? Porto and Benfica have liabilities around 400-500 Million Euros each. Their position is not really sustainable and all Portuguese clubs are starting to turn back into homegrown talent. We do have the cultural advantage of attracting latin american talents who see PT as a stepping stone into something bigger. Still, the increase in TV revenue for English and Spanish clubs in particular makes it completely impossible for clubs from other countries to compete. http://wengerball.com/wp-content/uploads/2010-11-UCL-monies-e1323353383898.png Looking only at CL TV money, Portuguese clubs get ~2.5M while Premier league clubs get 14-27M. Any ideas of merging Dutch and Belgium leagues? That would be awesome for top clubs in both countries IMO. It's a good idea in theory but in practise I think a lot of people wouldn't want to watch games vs Belgian clubs. In the long run it might just be the only option though. | ||
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Twisted
Netherlands13554 Posts
On April 10 2014 18:21 warding wrote: Any ideas on how to fight that trend? Porto and Benfica have liabilities around 400-500 Million Euros each. Their position is not really sustainable and all Portuguese clubs are starting to turn back into homegrown talent. We do have the cultural advantage of attracting latin american talents who see PT as a stepping stone into something bigger. Still, the increase in TV revenue for English and Spanish clubs in particular makes it completely impossible for clubs from other countries to compete. http://wengerball.com/wp-content/uploads/2010-11-UCL-monies-e1323353383898.png Looking only at CL TV money, Portuguese clubs get ~2.5M while Premier league clubs get 14-27M. Any ideas of merging Dutch and Belgium leagues? That would be awesome for top clubs in both countries IMO. Well the only way to fight it somewhat, is what the top Dutch clubs are trying to do now. Feyenoord was first in this but Ajax followed soon after. PSV has only started last year. Before that they were also mostly a buyer's club. Right now they're mostly a talent-focused team (and because it's their first year doing this, they have not been in the title race for the first time in 30 years or whatever). Focus completely on the youth division and make sure that players get crazy good in their development, but also to create loyalty in the player that they'll stay longer. The clubs do this by using old players who were a big deal at the club. Ajax for example uses all kinds of players in the organization who were part of the mid-90's dreamteam. Marc Overmars as director, Edwin van der Sar as commercial director. Frank de Boer as head coach, Dennis Bergkamp as assistant + Show Spoiler + Considering that this goal happened because of these two players who are now leading the first team of Ajax is still amazing (coincidence) to me: And yeah there were ideas to merge the Dutch and Belgian Leagues but most smaller teams voted against it iirc. The big teams wouldn't mind it. Travel distances are not that much bigger and there could be more money in the league allowing teams to compete more. I wouldn't mind it at least, but I'm an Ajax fan. I know that they'll still have the biggest budget and still would be favorites for the title every year, but if you are say.. a Heerenveen fan (who always finish 4th-9th or something and always have a slight chance for European football) I could see why you wouldn't like it. | ||
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aseq
Netherlands4021 Posts
On the other hand, the 3 countries together have a population of 28 million, so we're still dwarfed by everyone around us... | ||
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RvB
Netherlands6324 Posts
On April 10 2014 19:46 Twisted wrote: Well the only way to fight it somewhat, is what the top Dutch clubs are trying to do now. Feyenoord was first in this but Ajax followed soon after. PSV has only started last year. Before that they were also mostly a buyer's club. Right now they're mostly a talent-focused team (and because it's their first year doing this, they have not been in the title race for the first time in 30 years or whatever). Focus completely on the youth division and make sure that players get crazy good in their development, but also to create loyalty in the player that they'll stay longer. The clubs do this by using old players who were a big deal at the club. Ajax for example uses all kinds of players in the organization who were part of the mid-90's dreamteam. Marc Overmars as director, Edwin van der Sar as commercial director. Frank de Boer as head coach, Dennis Bergkamp as assistant + Show Spoiler + Considering that this goal happened because of these two players who are now leading the first team of Ajax is still amazing (coincidence) to me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtXo-8tThAg And yeah there were ideas to merge the Dutch and Belgian Leagues but most smaller teams voted against it iirc. The big teams wouldn't mind it. Travel distances are not that much bigger and there could be more money in the league allowing teams to compete more. I wouldn't mind it at least, but I'm an Ajax fan. I know that they'll still have the biggest budget and still would be favorites for the title every year, but if you are say.. a Heerenveen fan (who always finish 4th-9th or something and always have a slight chance for European football) I could see why you wouldn't like it. Youth is a poor excuse to justify poor performance imo. It's all about quality, quality players can be really young and they'll still play really well. On the Van der Sar as commercial director is something I don't really get. You can better have someone who is experienced at marketing than a random football player with no personality. For the technical and footbal aspect of the game I totally agree that there should be old players but I don't really see why they should hold positions like commercial director. | ||
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Twisted
Netherlands13554 Posts
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
http://talksport.com/football/arsenals-priority-will-be-keep-best-players-not-splash-cash-says-wenger-14041086848 | ||
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