EPT2012 - 2013 Football Thread! - Page 320
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warding
Portugal2397 Posts
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Itachii
Poland12466 Posts
One exception is Real Madrid, which usually tries to at least counter their style in most efficent way- hyper aggressive tackling, not giving Barca enough space to pass the ball arround for so long, and of course fast counter attacks.It doesn't always work of course, but imo thats the best way to play against them.Of course you need to have particular players for such style, and Real does have them. But thats just theory, you never can't be sure what will happend at the end, and thats why football is so great. | ||
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sc4k
United Kingdom5454 Posts
On March 14 2013 03:00 warding wrote: Fun question regarding this topic: can you think of the addition of a rule, such as the 24 second shot-clock and back-court violations in basketball, that could serve as an incentive against the type of play you're complaining about in football? Probably not but funnily enough I was watching a documentary on arguably the greatest natural talent in basketball, Wilt Chamberlain. When he was playing in college they didn't have the 24 second shot-clock, and other teams were so desperate not to let him have the ball that they would pass it around for 3-4 minutes before attempting shots. So they brought in the shot clock to prevent that tactic and let old Wilt have a chance at demolishing them. | ||
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On March 14 2013 03:00 warding wrote: Fun question regarding this topic: can you think of the addition of a rule, such as the 24 second shot-clock and back-court violations in basketball, that could serve as an incentive against the type of play you're complaining about in football? I think that would be terrible for the game. I think that the best "cure" for Barca's style is to go the way of Chelsea; turtle like fuck, and when Barca keep losing to it, they'll have to change and make more fast-paced attacking happen if they want to continue winning. The game will naturally fix itself, and eventually people will realize that Barca's style is not "the" way to play football; there is no "best" way to play. There are different tactics that are beaten in different ways. I think that there are a couple major problems with football (and these problems really keep it from being popular in the U.S.). Two of these problems can be fixed by better officiating: diving and time wasting. Ref's need to start carding people a lot more harshly for wasting time (players that argue with refs, take forever to throw the ball in/kick it in/walk off when they are subbed off) and for diving (watch the Bundesliga, where carding for diving is relatively common). This would also help with the "boring" games we tend to see with Barca; since we all know that Spanish players are almost better actors than they are footballers, carding diving would make it harder for teams like Barca to keep possession by diving when getting tackled. | ||
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sc4k
United Kingdom5454 Posts
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Ysellian
Netherlands9029 Posts
If a dive in the penalty box gives you a three match suspension no player in their right mind is going to be diving anymore. | ||
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Ferrose
United States11378 Posts
On March 14 2013 00:06 Stratos_speAr wrote: It is a style of play. Football snobs just get condescending and arrogant when it leads to Barcelona getting beaten. It's the style of play that can succeed against Barcelona's tactics. People like you need to grow up and accept that there are different ways to play the game. Edit: I mean really, I don't see this in any American sports, where when the team that is obviously the greatest overall gets beaten, people from all over make bullshit condescending excuses like this. Yea, people complain about ref's a lot (in every sport), but y'all need to grow up. Barcelona got beaten fair and square in a two-leg semifinal. They couldn't adapt to a different tactic and there aren't any excuses for it. I'm sick of hearing about teams turtling against Barcelona. Every time they lose like this (Chelsea, Celtic, etc.) Barcelona had a million and one chances to score, and they failed every time. Against Chelsea they had 23 shots, and against Celtic they had 25 with over 80% possession in each of them. How about your convert some of your chances instead of blaming the other team for their tactics? Let's not forget that in the Chelsea game, Messi dinged a penalty off the bar that would have put them ahead 3-1. And that Barcelona blew a 2-0 lead to a team with 10 men at their home stadium. But let's just blame Chelsea for turtling. On March 14 2013 03:41 Ysellian wrote: The current system is definitely far too lenient. Diving in the penalty box only gives you a yellow card when spotted and if you succeed you pretty much help your team to a goal. It's a part of the game I really hate. If a dive in the penalty box gives you a three match suspension no player in their right mind is going to be diving anymore. The NBA reviews all the plays and hands out fines to players who they deem to have dove. I don't know how well they follow through and get the players to pay up, but it's something. Maybe UEFA could try that for a start, and give suspensions for repeat offenders? | ||
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anomalopidae
Slovenia549 Posts
On March 14 2013 03:41 Ysellian wrote: The current system is definitely far too lenient. Diving in the penalty box only gives you a yellow card when spotted and if you succeed you pretty much help your team to a goal. It's a part of the game I really hate. If a dive in the penalty box gives you a three match suspension no player in their right mind is going to be diving anymore. and what when player falls cause he slipped? or just because he was exhausted after a run? | ||
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sc4k
United Kingdom5454 Posts
On March 14 2013 04:39 anomalopidae wrote: and what when player falls cause he slipped? or just because he was exhausted after a run? That's why you use a panel that make a judgment. Just like we have a jury system based around judgements, not simply categorical facts. The panel would judge whether or not it was a dive. | ||
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Sgany
United Kingdom790 Posts
On March 14 2013 04:39 anomalopidae wrote: and what when player falls cause he slipped? or just because he was exhausted after a run? Then in that case they wave their hand in the air acknowledging, they are not wanting a penalty for it, if a penalty is awarded they decline it, and a free kick is awarded to the other team. | ||
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sharkie
Austria18713 Posts
On March 14 2013 04:39 anomalopidae wrote: and what when player falls cause he slipped? or just because he was exhausted after a run? happens very rarely lol and those cases are pretty obvious Diving is totally destroying the game. I can't believe neither FIFA nor UEFA are doing ANYTHING against it. Or is this "part of the game" too?? | ||
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Ferrose
United States11378 Posts
Our FA Cup quarter-final replay with Manchester United will take place on Easter Monday, April 1 at 12.30pm. That game will be live on ITV, and means our Barclays Premier League match scheduled for Sunday, March 31 at Southampton will now take place on Saturday, March 30 at 3pm. http://www.chelseafc.com/news-article/article/3107867/title/replay-date-set Ouch, 3PM game on Saturday, then 12:30PM game on Monday. Chelsea would have to play again on that Thursday too if they advance in the Europa League. | ||
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On March 14 2013 04:39 anomalopidae wrote: and what when player falls cause he slipped? or just because he was exhausted after a run? Then don't roll around on the floor and cry like you got shot. It works really well in American sports, so football has absolutely zero excuse for how incredibly rampant diving and play-acting is. | ||
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WillyWanker
France1915 Posts
On March 14 2013 03:55 Ferrose wrote: I'm sick of hearing about teams turtling against Barcelona. Every time they lose like this (Chelsea, Celtic, etc.) Barcelona had a million and one chances to score, and they failed every time. Against Chelsea they had 23 shots, and against Celtic they had 25 with over 80% possession in each of them. How about your convert some of your chances instead of blaming the other team for their tactics? Let's not forget that in the Chelsea game, Messi dinged a penalty off the bar that would have put them ahead 3-1. And that Barcelona blew a 2-0 lead to a team with 10 men at their home stadium. But let's just blame Chelsea for turtling. The NBA reviews all the plays and hands out fines to players who they deem to have dove. I don't know how well they follow through and get the players to pay up, but it's something. Maybe UEFA could try that for a start, and give suspensions for repeat offenders? Some people blame the losses on turtle style but that's really not the majority, and that's really not what I think. I said it countless times, it's barca's fault. I'm blaming Chelsea for their football 'disgrace' (they love this word) during BOTH games, not only the second one where they had to defend their advantage... Nobody blames inter because on the first leg they played wonderful and deserved to defend catenaccio style on the second leg. Hell Chelsea even turtled against Bayern, where is their excuse for this game? Bayern style is not Barca style as far as i know... To me Chelsea has been the ugliest CL winner of the last xxx years, The last team I remember playing like this was Greece in 2004 but at least they didnt have a billionaire team... The 24s rule would be really stupid, and most team cant already make 3 passes in a row so its not such a problem. I really laughedcat the 'if every team turtled against Barcelona, the game would fix itself over time'. All the teams are already playing like that against barcelona except for a few exceptions... Real Sociedad was one exception and they won barca. Guess how? They simply played better than them this game. Like for any Barca defeats against turtle strats. Turtling works one time every 10 games when they are in shape, and 1 times out of 2-3 when they are out of shape like the last month. With their full physical abilities last year I have absolutely no doubt that they would have crushed Chelsea and qualified during the first leg. But people will say 'no plan b blablabla'. Yesterday they put 4 with the plan A. Villa being the reason of the win? His positioning gave Messi more freedom, but I would put this win on the team performance and not only one player substitution :S I really am a fan of Villa though and would love to see him being in the starting 11s against the big teams, because i dont like Cesc, and I think the style they have with him + Iniesta on the left wing is a lot less effective than the standard 4-3-3. | ||
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city42
1656 Posts
On March 14 2013 08:08 WillyWanker wrote: Some people blame the losses on turtle style but that's really not the majority, and that's really not what I think. I said it countless times, it's barca's fault. I'm blaming Chelsea for their football 'disgrace' (they love this word) during BOTH games, not only the second one where they had to defend their advantage... Nobody blames inter because on the first leg they played wonderful and deserved to defend catenaccio style on the second leg. Hell Chelsea even turtled against Bayern, where is their excuse for this game? Bayern style is not Barca style as far as i know... To me Chelsea has been the ugliest CL winner of the last xxx years, The last team I remember playing like this was Greece in 2004 but at least they didnt have a billionaire team... The 24s rule would be really stupid, and most team cant already make 3 passes in a row so its not such a problem. I really laughedcat the 'if every team turtled against Barcelona, the game would fix itself over time'. All the teams are already playing like that against barcelona except for a few exceptions... Real Sociedad was one exception and they won barca. Guess how? They simply played better than them this game. Like for any Barca defeats against turtle strats. Turtling works one time every 10 games when they are in shape, and 1 times out of 2-3 when they are out of shape like the last month. With their full physical abilities last year I have absolutely no doubt that they would have crushed Chelsea and qualified during the first leg. But people will say 'no plan b blablabla'. Yesterday they put 4 with the plan A. Villa being the reason of the win? His positioning gave Messi more freedom, but I would put this win on the team performance and not only one player substitution :S I really am a fan of Villa though and would love to see him being in the starting 11s against the big teams, because i dont like Cesc, and I think the style they have with him + Iniesta on the left wing is a lot less effective than the standard 4-3-3. I don't watch Barcelona too much outside the CL, but I think your last paragraph is very accurate. With Fabregas in the lineup, Iniesta looked very uncomfortable playing out wide. He would drift inside and not really operate like a normal winger, so Barcelona looked very narrow in attack. Putting Villa wide, and letting Iniesta go back to his central partnership with Xavi, seems to be much more effective. Iniesta is an amazing player and putting him on the left wing is a waste of his abilities. I know Fabregas has impressive stats, but he seems to ruin the formation. | ||
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On March 14 2013 08:08 WillyWanker wrote: Some people blame the losses on turtle style but that's really not the majority, and that's really not what I think. I said it countless times, it's barca's fault. I'm blaming Chelsea for their football 'disgrace' (they love this word) during BOTH games, not only the second one where they had to defend their advantage... Nobody blames inter because on the first leg they played wonderful and deserved to defend catenaccio style on the second leg. Hell Chelsea even turtled against Bayern, where is their excuse for this game? Bayern style is not Barca style as far as i know... To me Chelsea has been the ugliest CL winner of the last xxx years, The last team I remember playing like this was Greece in 2004 but at least they didnt have a billionaire team... The 24s rule would be really stupid, and most team cant already make 3 passes in a row so its not such a problem. I really laughedcat the 'if every team turtled against Barcelona, the game would fix itself over time'. All the teams are already playing like that against barcelona except for a few exceptions... Real Sociedad was one exception and they won barca. Guess how? They simply played better than them this game. Like for any Barca defeats against turtle strats. Turtling works one time every 10 games when they are in shape, and 1 times out of 2-3 when they are out of shape like the last month. With their full physical abilities last year I have absolutely no doubt that they would have crushed Chelsea and qualified during the first leg. But people will say 'no plan b blablabla'. Yesterday they put 4 with the plan A. Villa being the reason of the win? His positioning gave Messi more freedom, but I would put this win on the team performance and not only one player substitution :S I really am a fan of Villa though and would love to see him being in the starting 11s against the big teams, because i dont like Cesc, and I think the style they have with him + Iniesta on the left wing is a lot less effective than the standard 4-3-3. A perfect example of football snobbery. In American sports, unless a team wins by dirty/underhanded tactics (as in cheating or ref's making bad calls), you don't criticize people for winning championships with "ugly" play; you analyze why the "better" team failed to defeat their ugly play and why this ugly play was successful for the winning team. In other words, the football world is full of sore losers. Grow up and stop being a bunch of crybabies. Also, Milan didn't play any kind of solid game yesterday, so that isn't an example of anything. Obviously this turtling style is the best way to beat Barca (that we know of) because it's the one that's had the most success at beating Barca (even if the success rate is low in and of itself). So if they want to keep winning championships, when they face good teams that use this tactic, they'll have to change their play, and we won't see such boring games of football. It's fairly simple. You could even replace the way that Chelsea/Milan played against them with any other tactic that can (relatively) reliably succeed against Barca and it's the same concept; I only talk about this style because it's the one that people have complained about the most and the one that Barca has failed against most notably. The only way that they will play only this tactic forever and never change is if they are so wildly better than the rest of the world that it doesn't matter, and that simply isn't the case. | ||
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Rebs
Pakistan10726 Posts
On March 14 2013 02:35 sc4k wrote: I think you need to play fifa a bit to understand what I am talking about. Some people play you in the way that they try to attack, you get the ball, you try to attack, they get the ball. You have a fun back and forth game and equal chances. And someone produces some magic to give you the victory. However some people (barca style) will pump their team full of ball-players and literally refuse to give you possession. It's extremely aggravating and never makes for a fun game. I can do it. I have a team that I regularly get 75% possession with if I want to. It's all about valuing possession over medium chances to score. But it sucks to do, and I hate to play against it. It's just boring boring football. That example would bo cogent if it wasnt for the fact that what Barca do is incredibly harder in real life than in Fifa, Ive played a fair bit, just because the game is a high pass back and forth just means your 1 x 2 x 3xing to the goal and trying to beat the last defender with some 1-2s and some flicks. And that fine, and really no one has an excuse to play the way Barca do in Fifa because its a video game. So just because they are prats for doing it in a video game doesnt translate in anyway to what Barca does aside from the "keeping posession." The difficulty isnt really replicable. [B]On March 14 2013 08:40 Stratos_speAr wrote: A perfect example of football snobbery. In American sports, unless a team wins by dirty/underhanded tactics (as in cheating or ref's making bad calls), you don't criticize people for winning championships with "ugly" play; you analyze why the "better" team failed to defeat their ugly play and why this ugly play was successful for the winning team. In other words, the football world is full of sore losers. Grow up and stop being a bunch of crybabies. Also, Milan didn't play any kind of solid game yesterday, so that isn't an example of anything. Obviously this turtling style is the best way to beat Barca (that we know of) because it's the one that's had the most success at beating Barca (even if the success rate is low in and of itself). So if they want to keep winning championships, when they face good teams that use this tactic, they'll have to change their play, and we won't see such boring games of football. It's fairly simple. You could even replace the way that Chelsea/Milan played against them with any other tactic that can (relatively) reliably succeed against Barca and it's the same concept; I only talk about this style because it's the one that people have complained about the most and the one that Barca has failed against most notably. The only way that they will play only this tactic forever and never change is if they are so wildly better than the rest of the world that it doesn't matter, and that simply isn't the case. Yea hes being an idiot, I dont think theres been a bigger critic of turtling teams then me here but fact is, if it works it works. I do agree with him that not having a plan b or a variation to their style of play isnt a bad thing. A style is a style for a reason. Real doesnt ping the ball around they use the quality on the pitch and the pace on their players to beat the first man anywhere up the field and create passes. Barca does it from scratch. The best teams have always been stylistc and if that means losing some times because you maintain an identity then so be it. You cant win everything. | ||
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sc4k
United Kingdom5454 Posts
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WillyWanker
France1915 Posts
On March 14 2013 08:40 Stratos_speAr wrote: A perfect example of football snobbery. In American sports, unless a team wins by dirty/underhanded tactics (as in cheating or ref's making bad calls), you don't criticize people for winning championships with "ugly" play; you analyze why the "better" team failed to defeat their ugly play and why this ugly play was successful for the winning team. In other words, the football world is full of sore losers. Grow up and stop being a bunch of crybabies. Also, Milan didn't play any kind of solid game yesterday, so that isn't an example of anything. Obviously this turtling style is the best way to beat Barca (that we know of) because it's the one that's had the most success at beating Barca (even if the success rate is low in and of itself). So if they want to keep winning championships, when they face good teams that use this tactic, they'll have to change their play, and we won't see such boring games of football. It's fairly simple. You could even replace the way that Chelsea/Milan played against them with any other tactic that can (relatively) reliably succeed against Barca and it's the same concept; I only talk about this style because it's the one that people have complained about the most and the one that Barca has failed against most notably. The only way that they will play only this tactic forever and never change is if they are so wildly better than the rest of the world that it doesn't matter, and that simply isn't the case. You would be right if Chelsea played good but that wasnt the case. They turtled 3 games and still conceded 75 attempts. They qualified and won the title because some kind of higher being had a debt toward the wonderful team that they were 3 or 4 years before that but that never ended up winning this title... How many missed penalties were needed to make the dream come true? How many balls on the post? And allow me to have my own perception of what is good football and what's ugly, without calling me a freaking 'fanboy'. The day Barcelona lost vs chelsea i was SAD not a SORE loser, I never pinned it on Chelsea, but i guess you read what pleases you too... I can understand that football is a sport and that you need to do everything you can to win. Thats called competitive spirit and I totally have it. But allow me to express my feelings as a spectator and supporter when I say Chelsea was fucking ugly, without calling me a fanboy. I may not be 100% objective but I am not totally retarded yet. Hell, I support my home team, PSG, I supported before they got rich. And let me tell you that I prefered how they played just a year before the qatari acquisition. Now they play the counter attacking style. In CL, I get it, they're new and the team hasnt had so much time to develop a style good enough to compete against the best. But they do the exact same shit vs the last of the french league, and I found this profoundly disgusting. The same disgust I have for what Chelsea did in the CL. Now if you call me fanboy because you think i'm trying to teach football or push my ideas like they were coming from the Holy Bible, you got it wrong. English isnt my first language so maybe my sentences carry some meanings that are hidden to me but not to you, so in that case I'm sorry. But in most of my messages I just try to defend my opinions (subjective) on what I THINK is true or untrue. Like Chelsea being 'magnificent' or Barcelona receiving help from the UEFA... | ||
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ZapRoffo
United States5544 Posts
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