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On July 15 2014 01:57 Frolossus wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2014 01:53 Sufficiency wrote:On July 15 2014 01:45 TheYango wrote:On July 15 2014 01:44 Sufficiency wrote:
Fire Emblem isn't really a tactics game. It is more of a trial and error game where the player faces unforeseeable obstacles and difficulties and the only way to beat the game is through mapping the obstacles after encountering them then start from the beginning all over again.
Don't get me wrong, it is not as bad as some other games (Yggdra Union is far more guilty of this), but to call Fire Emblems a tactics game is a bit far fetched. Yggdra Union is an Atlus game, which could be considered a genre of its own, lol. Yggdra Union definitely looks like a tactics game. From the layout, to things like the weapon triangle. But I feel tactics games should be like puzzles. The player should be given all the information and be asked to solve the problems - instead of showing the player only partial information and smash the player later on with nasty surprises. Also I feel tactics games should have no critical hits. At least no RNG based crits. See: FE: reinforcement mechanics, especially in FE6 and 10 FE: black box stats growth Yggdra: MVP mechanics and stats cap Yggdra: critical hits (probably the most bullshit thing I have ever witnessed in a game) how do you feel about xcom?
Haven't played it yet, unfortunately.
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First day back to work after vacation. All I gotta say
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I guess that's a no on spikes smeargle?
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On July 15 2014 01:57 xes wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2014 01:44 Sufficiency wrote:
Fire Emblem isn't really a tactics game. It is more of a trial and error game where the player faces unforeseeable obstacles and difficulties and the only way to beat the game is through mapping the obstacles after encountering them then start from the beginning all over again.
Don't get me wrong, it is not as bad as some other games (Yggdra Union is far more guilty of this), but to call Fire Emblems a tactics game is a bit far fetched. You just sound salty. This sort of mission surprise is the definition of a tactics RPG and you can see it in other genre titles like FF:Tactics, Valkyria Chronicle, and XCOM. I guess this is slightly different from a non-RPG pure tactics game, but even Advance Wars had elements of campaign imperfect information. Perfect information pure tactics games are actually quiet boring; the only exciting one I've played in a while has been Frozen Synapse.
Imperfect information is not the same as pitfalls.
Let's examine reinforcement mechanics in tactics games. First of all, note that not all games have this mechanics (see:FFT/A/A2) and I don't consider this a core aspect of this genre. Now, if you want to use this mechanics, there is a huge difference between reinforcement arriving from a place a player can expect (even though the exact amount and composition is still unknown to the player) and a total, unforeseeable surprise.
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On July 15 2014 02:13 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2014 01:57 xes wrote:On July 15 2014 01:44 Sufficiency wrote:
Fire Emblem isn't really a tactics game. It is more of a trial and error game where the player faces unforeseeable obstacles and difficulties and the only way to beat the game is through mapping the obstacles after encountering them then start from the beginning all over again.
Don't get me wrong, it is not as bad as some other games (Yggdra Union is far more guilty of this), but to call Fire Emblems a tactics game is a bit far fetched. You just sound salty. This sort of mission surprise is the definition of a tactics RPG and you can see it in other genre titles like FF:Tactics, Valkyria Chronicle, and XCOM. I guess this is slightly different from a non-RPG pure tactics game, but even Advance Wars had elements of campaign imperfect information. Perfect information pure tactics games are actually quiet boring; the only exciting one I've played in a while has been Frozen Synapse. Imperfect information is not the same as pitfalls. Let's examine reinforcement mechanics in tactics games. First of all, note that not all games have this mechanics (see:FFT/A/A2) and I don't consider this a core aspect of this genre. Now, if you want to use this mechanics, there is a huge difference between reinforcement arriving from a place a player can expect (even though the exact amount and composition is still unknown to the player) and a total, unforeseeable surprise.
I'm not sure why unforeseeable surprises would be bad. If you were the commander of a battlefield, would you expect to know every possible aspect of the area you're fighting on? I wouldn't think so, unexpected things happen.
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On July 15 2014 01:55 jcarlsoniv wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2014 01:41 Cixah wrote:On July 15 2014 01:34 Frudgey wrote:
Super Smash Bros trailer reveals Captain Falcon and then doesn't showcase any of his moves. I mean, I know he's been in all of the previous games so we should really know what to expect from him, but I still wanted to see him smash something.
*sigh*
Not sure how I feel about Lucina and Robin though. I think I'm just too excited for LITTLE MAC at this point. Hype Hype Hype!
ALSO HAPPY MONDAY. (Although I'm really starting to get the impression here that no one here really likes Mondays.) http://i.imgur.com/vaSQoCl.gifPlease. You subtle pun has no power here. I'm so glad this gif exists. @Frudgey - what could there possibly be to make Mondays not suck edit: I'm not mad at you for not playing DoW2 with me. I played a bit with my friend and remembered why I never really pursued it.
Oh I never actually thought you got mad for me not playing DoW2 with you. I'm just poking fun at myself. I feel like I'd have to do something serious to actually get you mad at me.
Also I will give you 5 reasons why one can appreciate Mondays.
1. Generally speaking, Off-Topic starts moving at a respectable pace again after that weekend lull. (I know last weekend was an exception but still!) This gives you a chance to talk to others on the sub-forum, and make idle chat about how weekends were, what you guys did, etc. Monday lets you catch up with your internet friends!
2. On Monday you know things must get better. You know that you're now on the journey to Friday, and you'll get there one day at a time. Right now, things are looking up. And before you go, "AHA! You just admitted that Mondays are the low point of the week!" let me say that a low point isn't necessarily bad. To give an example, let's say I call Dark Knight Rises the low point in the Nolan trilogy. I don't think Dark Knight Rises is bad per say, but I think it's weaker than the other two films. But I'd still give it a 8/10, (at least) which is still a good score.
3. Mondays make you realize how much you appreciate the weekends. If we had weekends 24/7 our days off would lose meaning because we'd have so many of them. We wouldn't appreciate weekends anymore. So really, our Mondays are an integral part to making our weekends better experiences. So we can appreciate Mondays because they make better weekends.
4. Mondays make you realize that things can be much worse. You're lucky enough to have a job that even has a "Monday". But what do I mean by this? Pretend you had a job in which you worked seven days a week. In that sense you wouldn't have a "Monday" in your work week in the sense that you have no start to your work week. You are working forever in this theoretical job, and you'd work until the day you die as you work week has no end to it. By having a Monday in our work week that means that there is a beginning and an end to our work week, so then weekends can exist.
5. Mondays are a breeding grounds for optimism. If one considers my previous points, then one would hopefully come to think that Mondays aren't all that bad. And if one has this realization, then they can start thinking about many things in a more positive life. And if one starts thinking more optimistically, then it doesn't seem unlikely to think that the person may be a happier person by extension. So really, Mondays have the potential to make you a happier person as a whole!
There you go Soniv, five reasons on why Mondays don't suck! I know that some of those reasons are a bit of a stretch, but you get the idea. You gotta start looking at the glass half-full my friend!
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On July 15 2014 02:14 jcarlsoniv wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2014 02:13 Sufficiency wrote:On July 15 2014 01:57 xes wrote:On July 15 2014 01:44 Sufficiency wrote:
Fire Emblem isn't really a tactics game. It is more of a trial and error game where the player faces unforeseeable obstacles and difficulties and the only way to beat the game is through mapping the obstacles after encountering them then start from the beginning all over again.
Don't get me wrong, it is not as bad as some other games (Yggdra Union is far more guilty of this), but to call Fire Emblems a tactics game is a bit far fetched. You just sound salty. This sort of mission surprise is the definition of a tactics RPG and you can see it in other genre titles like FF:Tactics, Valkyria Chronicle, and XCOM. I guess this is slightly different from a non-RPG pure tactics game, but even Advance Wars had elements of campaign imperfect information. Perfect information pure tactics games are actually quiet boring; the only exciting one I've played in a while has been Frozen Synapse. Imperfect information is not the same as pitfalls. Let's examine reinforcement mechanics in tactics games. First of all, note that not all games have this mechanics (see:FFT/A/A2) and I don't consider this a core aspect of this genre. Now, if you want to use this mechanics, there is a huge difference between reinforcement arriving from a place a player can expect (even though the exact amount and composition is still unknown to the player) and a total, unforeseeable surprise. I'm not sure why unforeseeable surprises would be bad. If you were the commander of a battlefield, would you expect to know every possible aspect of the area you're fighting on? I wouldn't think so, unexpected things happen.
The problem is you encounter something you cannot foresee and all of a sudden your last 60 minutes of effort is down the drains.
It is kind of like playing I want to be the guy, except long iteration cycles. Making things worse, tactics games are turn based and does not depend on your reaction or execution - everything has to do with the player's decision.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
Omg a spellsword character in smash? That makes me really sad I don't have either Wii-U or DS3... Maybe I should get them, I want to play Awakening too and DS3 has been taking ages to crack.
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On July 15 2014 02:18 Frudgey wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2014 01:55 jcarlsoniv wrote:On July 15 2014 01:41 Cixah wrote:On July 15 2014 01:34 Frudgey wrote:
Super Smash Bros trailer reveals Captain Falcon and then doesn't showcase any of his moves. I mean, I know he's been in all of the previous games so we should really know what to expect from him, but I still wanted to see him smash something.
*sigh*
Not sure how I feel about Lucina and Robin though. I think I'm just too excited for LITTLE MAC at this point. Hype Hype Hype!
ALSO HAPPY MONDAY. (Although I'm really starting to get the impression here that no one here really likes Mondays.) http://i.imgur.com/vaSQoCl.gifPlease. You subtle pun has no power here. I'm so glad this gif exists. @Frudgey - what could there possibly be to make Mondays not suck edit: I'm not mad at you for not playing DoW2 with me. I played a bit with my friend and remembered why I never really pursued it. Oh I never actually thought you got mad for me not playing DoW2 with you. I'm just poking fun at myself. I feel like I'd have to do something serious to actually get you mad at me. Also I will give you 5 reasons why one can appreciate Mondays. 1. Generally speaking, Off-Topic starts moving at a respectable pace again after that weekend lull. (I know last weekend was an exception but still!) This gives you a chance to talk to others on the sub-forum, and make idle chat about how weekends were, what you guys did, etc. Monday lets you catch up with your internet friends! 2. On Monday you know things must get better. You know that you're now on the journey to Friday, and you'll get there one day at a time. Right now, things are looking up. And before you go, "AHA! You just admitted that Mondays are the low point of the week!" let me say that a low point isn't necessarily bad. To give an example, let's say I call Dark Knight Rises the low point in the Nolan trilogy. I don't think Dark Knight Rises is bad per say, but I think it's weaker than the other two films. But I'd still give it a 8/10, (at least) which is still a good score. 3. Mondays make you realize how much you appreciate the weekends. If we had weekends 24/7 our days off would lose meaning because we'd have so many of them. We wouldn't appreciate weekends anymore. So really, our Mondays are an integral part to making our weekends better experiences. So we can appreciate Mondays because they make better weekends. 4. Mondays make you realize that things can be much worse. You're lucky enough to have a job that even has a "Monday". But what do I mean by this? Pretend you had a job in which you worked seven days a week. In that sense you wouldn't have a "Monday" in your work week in the sense that you have no start to your work week. You are working forever in this theoretical job, and you'd work until the day you die as you work week has no end to it. By having a Monday in our work week that means that there is a beginning and an end to our work week, so then weekends can exist. 5. Mondays are a breeding grounds for optimism. If one considers my previous points, then one would hopefully come to think that Mondays aren't all that bad. And if one has this realization, then they can start thinking about many things in a more positive life. And if one starts thinking more optimistically, then it doesn't seem unlikely to think that the person may be a happier person by extension. So really, Mondays have the potential to make you a happier person as a whole! There you go Soniv, five reasons on why Mondays don't suck! I know that some of those reasons are a bit of a stretch, but you get the idea. You gotta start looking at the glass half-full my friend!
tl;dr - mondays suck
+ Show Spoiler +
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On July 15 2014 02:25 jcarlsoniv wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2014 02:18 Frudgey wrote:On July 15 2014 01:55 jcarlsoniv wrote:On July 15 2014 01:41 Cixah wrote:On July 15 2014 01:34 Frudgey wrote:
Super Smash Bros trailer reveals Captain Falcon and then doesn't showcase any of his moves. I mean, I know he's been in all of the previous games so we should really know what to expect from him, but I still wanted to see him smash something.
*sigh*
Not sure how I feel about Lucina and Robin though. I think I'm just too excited for LITTLE MAC at this point. Hype Hype Hype!
ALSO HAPPY MONDAY. (Although I'm really starting to get the impression here that no one here really likes Mondays.) http://i.imgur.com/vaSQoCl.gifPlease. You subtle pun has no power here. I'm so glad this gif exists. @Frudgey - what could there possibly be to make Mondays not suck edit: I'm not mad at you for not playing DoW2 with me. I played a bit with my friend and remembered why I never really pursued it. Oh I never actually thought you got mad for me not playing DoW2 with you. I'm just poking fun at myself. I feel like I'd have to do something serious to actually get you mad at me. Also I will give you 5 reasons why one can appreciate Mondays. 1. Generally speaking, Off-Topic starts moving at a respectable pace again after that weekend lull. (I know last weekend was an exception but still!) This gives you a chance to talk to others on the sub-forum, and make idle chat about how weekends were, what you guys did, etc. Monday lets you catch up with your internet friends! 2. On Monday you know things must get better. You know that you're now on the journey to Friday, and you'll get there one day at a time. Right now, things are looking up. And before you go, "AHA! You just admitted that Mondays are the low point of the week!" let me say that a low point isn't necessarily bad. To give an example, let's say I call Dark Knight Rises the low point in the Nolan trilogy. I don't think Dark Knight Rises is bad per say, but I think it's weaker than the other two films. But I'd still give it a 8/10, (at least) which is still a good score. 3. Mondays make you realize how much you appreciate the weekends. If we had weekends 24/7 our days off would lose meaning because we'd have so many of them. We wouldn't appreciate weekends anymore. So really, our Mondays are an integral part to making our weekends better experiences. So we can appreciate Mondays because they make better weekends. 4. Mondays make you realize that things can be much worse. You're lucky enough to have a job that even has a "Monday". But what do I mean by this? Pretend you had a job in which you worked seven days a week. In that sense you wouldn't have a "Monday" in your work week in the sense that you have no start to your work week. You are working forever in this theoretical job, and you'd work until the day you die as you work week has no end to it. By having a Monday in our work week that means that there is a beginning and an end to our work week, so then weekends can exist. 5. Mondays are a breeding grounds for optimism. If one considers my previous points, then one would hopefully come to think that Mondays aren't all that bad. And if one has this realization, then they can start thinking about many things in a more positive life. And if one starts thinking more optimistically, then it doesn't seem unlikely to think that the person may be a happier person by extension. So really, Mondays have the potential to make you a happier person as a whole! There you go Soniv, five reasons on why Mondays don't suck! I know that some of those reasons are a bit of a stretch, but you get the idea. You gotta start looking at the glass half-full my friend! tl;dr - mondays suck + Show Spoiler +
Well I tried.
Soniv you're on your own now!
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On July 15 2014 02:20 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2014 02:14 jcarlsoniv wrote:On July 15 2014 02:13 Sufficiency wrote:On July 15 2014 01:57 xes wrote:On July 15 2014 01:44 Sufficiency wrote:
Fire Emblem isn't really a tactics game. It is more of a trial and error game where the player faces unforeseeable obstacles and difficulties and the only way to beat the game is through mapping the obstacles after encountering them then start from the beginning all over again.
Don't get me wrong, it is not as bad as some other games (Yggdra Union is far more guilty of this), but to call Fire Emblems a tactics game is a bit far fetched. You just sound salty. This sort of mission surprise is the definition of a tactics RPG and you can see it in other genre titles like FF:Tactics, Valkyria Chronicle, and XCOM. I guess this is slightly different from a non-RPG pure tactics game, but even Advance Wars had elements of campaign imperfect information. Perfect information pure tactics games are actually quiet boring; the only exciting one I've played in a while has been Frozen Synapse. Imperfect information is not the same as pitfalls. Let's examine reinforcement mechanics in tactics games. First of all, note that not all games have this mechanics (see:FFT/A/A2) and I don't consider this a core aspect of this genre. Now, if you want to use this mechanics, there is a huge difference between reinforcement arriving from a place a player can expect (even though the exact amount and composition is still unknown to the player) and a total, unforeseeable surprise. I'm not sure why unforeseeable surprises would be bad. If you were the commander of a battlefield, would you expect to know every possible aspect of the area you're fighting on? I wouldn't think so, unexpected things happen. The problem is you encounter something you cannot foresee and all of a sudden your last 60 minutes of effort is down the drains. It is kind of like playing I want to be the guy, except long iteration cycles. Making things worse, tactics games are turn based and does not depend on your reaction or execution - everything has to do with the player's decision.
This sounds like you're trying to RNG stat grind suboptimal characters on a first run playthrough on hard+ mode?
Sometimes a bit of empirical investigation is superior to presumption. Just run through the level to investigate what happens and restart later. I never had any problems with the FE games and I played half of them in Japanese, which meant deducing the menus as the only Japanese characters I know are from Chinese.
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United States47024 Posts
lol Sufficiency the only reason those reinforcements screw you over is because you move through missions too slow and leave stragglers to get buttfucked.
The point of enemy reinforcements from your side of the map, is to force you to maintain a tight formation and progress through the mission quickly so you're not caught fighting too many things at once. They only pose a problem if you're progressing too slowly (resulting in you being too close to their initial location when they spawn) or leaving vulnerable units to get picked off. Essentially they only pose a problem if you are playing poorly/incorrectly.
FFT doesn't need to use this because it already has facing mechanics which approach a similar concept in a different manner--but facing also has its own problems (mostly that the the penalty for attacking from the front is miss chance--which makes the game even more RNG-dependent at times).
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FE7 has Merlinus always staying behind, though, and sometimes 3 horsemen spawn in range to reach him. :<
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It took me all day to catch up with this thread so this monday in particular isnt that bad but in general its more like this+ Show Spoiler +
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On July 15 2014 03:27 TheYango wrote:
lol Sufficiency the only reason those reinforcements screw you over is because you move through missions too slow and leave stragglers to get buttfucked.
The point of enemy reinforcements from your side of the map, is to force you to maintain a tight formation. They only pose a problem if you're progressing too slowly (resulting in you being too close to their initial location when they spawn) or leaving vulnerable units to get picked off.
FFT doesn't need to use this because it already has facing mechanics which approach a similar concept in a different manner--but facing also has its own problems (mostly that the the penalty for attacking from the front is miss chance--which makes the game even more RNG-dependent at times).
Even if the purpose is to force tight formation, it can be done in a way that the player can anticipate (eg "reinforcement will arrive at the back in 2 turns!"). Otherwise you are making the player to make certain choices only after the nasty surprise has happened once.
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"I don't mind poop that much, not that I have a fetish or anything" -wav
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United States47024 Posts
On July 15 2014 03:33 Alaric wrote:
FE7 has Merlinus always staying behind, though, and sometimes 3 horsemen spawn in range to reach him. :<
Which is why Merlinus death isn't permanent, unlike other characters.
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On July 15 2014 03:33 Alaric wrote:
FE7 has Merlinus always staying behind, though, and sometimes 3 horsemen spawn in range to reach him. :<
Merlinus is kind of a different beast. And look, it never came back after FE7...
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EPT
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