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Ah, so is the LoL forum totally gone now? I can't see it in my side bar at all...
I understand why TL aren't starting a LoL site though, its quite late in already and they don't really have a LoL presence. still, I can dream <3
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IT's all there, in the "other games" section
make sure you aren't filtering that
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On May 21 2014 04:31 Slayer91 wrote:
IT's all there, in the "other games" section
make sure you aren't filtering that
Also make sure you have League of Legends checked here on the side bar too: http://www.teamliquid.net/mytlnet/sidebars.php
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Having Creaton benched will be the worst decision I make all week.
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On May 21 2014 04:18 ComaDose wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2014 03:52 ketchup wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 21 2014 02:30 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2014 01:53 ketchup wrote:On May 20 2014 20:57 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
The community is only one part of the variables involved with starting a standalone site. News coverage, Staff, Riot esports coverage, existing presence of large community sites, not having a Liquipedia, timing (better to come in early like we were able to do with Hearthstone), and other factors all play an important role as well. We do recognize there is a tight community here but we don't think it translates to standalone site opportunities the way this was the case for other games. Nazgul, Around the time TL introduced that you would be officially covering DotA2, the LoL blurb on the article was fairly dismissive of LoL on TL. A lot of times that TL gets mentioned on reddit for an article the TL LoL staff did, this transition into DotA2 is referenced, and the dismissive tone is set from there on. If I have my timeline correct, Season 2 World Championships for LoL were also coming up shortly after this article. This period of time was so perfect for TL to get a foot into LoL. This is a long time ago now, but it always confused me how it was handled. Would you change how you handled LoL back then or not? I know this is a long time ago, but there is definitely still room for TL to get into LoL. The only thing stopping progression has been TL staff. To add on to the above, there is still no "good" forum for LoL yet. There are various sites that cover LoL, but nothing that attempts to build on the community aspect. The official LoL forums are not really taken care of too well to develop it, or at least there is no real moderation there. Reddit's /r/LeagueofLegends is the closest thing, and it doesn't build the same type of community that TL can. I believe sincerely that there are still people looking for a community that TL LoL can offer, but that a lot of what TL staff have chosen to do has worked against growing TL LoL. These new changes seem like a pretty huge step backwards. Again, if I look at his from an outside perspective, you get a feeling that it dismisses LoL on TL. Any new user that might wander into TL from an article that TL LoL put out will probably wonder why TL LoL is under "other games" section. You would think that with how large the game itself is, it would be natural for it to be on a section of it's own. Lastly, speaking of LoL articles, why were they never spotlighted before? I don't understand how anyone would think that LoL articles/staff did not want to be spotlighted on TL. This makes absolutely no sense to me at all no matter how much I think about it. I know the quality was there. The amount of effort put in to the articles is easily seen. From what I recall, there were a few articles that were translated into Korean. This was so cool to hear about for me, because it was always TL who translated from various Korean news sites, but TL LoL actually got the reverse to happen! I find the lack of care given to TL LoL by TL just off putting, and honestly, it's not really difficult to see why TL LoL has staff issues. I don't know of any person that does not want to be acknowledged for their effort. To put it simply, TL has shown that it is fairly dismissive of the TL LoL staff/community. I sincerely wish you would change this, but I'm probably just hoping for something that will not happen. It's not really a surprise that TL LoL gets put back into the other games section, and I can understand why you think it fits what you see TL as being. I just don't think it's the correct choice when considering what TL means to many of us. I don't think I'll leave the TL LoL forums as long as they exist with the community we have, but it really does suck to see how stubborn TL has been with LoL any time it comes up. This is all coming from someone who is barely involved in TL LoL, so I cannot even imagine how TL LoL staff/writers must be feeling. I apologize for the length that this turned out to be For the full answer on whether or not it was a mistake I could probably fill a book. We've recently gone through a whole period of realization where we have started to feel adding Dota to TL was a mistake. Not because the game isn't worth it, but because TL wasn't equipped for multi-gaming. I have to refer to my blog again that explains this more in depth. Dota resonated incredibly well with our community yet it didn't lead to growth. Our coverage was great, our Dota community was great, yet people from the outside still saw us as that StarCraft site. So with what we have learned about this I definitely think it would have been a mistake to add LoL to the frontpage. Based on what we experienced with Dota we don't think that would have lead to a great position in the LoL community. If two games lead to this many issues three games would have been worse. TL basically did nothing but BW for nearly 10 years. We didn't care which game was bigger we just liked what we were doing. When SC2 came out we took a similar approach and especially when SC2 blew up and TL was in a great spot we thought it was good to keep everything on TL. The thought of a standalone Dota site didn't even cross our mind back then. If I had to point out a mistake it would be that we were late to realize standalone sites dedicated to games were a better option to forming and shaping communities than keeping everything on TL. If we had figured that out in the early stages of League's popularity maybe it could have been possible. The short answer is no I don't think it was a mistake not to add LoL. It would have been too much for TL to handle and additionally in that period there was a lot of fear and dislike among TL SC2 fans. However we have made mistakes such as not thinking about standalone sites in the earlier stages of LoL's popularity. I thank you for this answer. I'm not fully trying to convince you that this change is bad because I understand what you see TL as. I can see why you feel the way you do, but it's different from the TL I imagine. That's okay. The problem comes in with how people who aren't involved see TL LoL as. Again from the outside perspective, a new user on TL looking for LoL will be really confused. Why is LoL listed under "Other Games", and why is it so differently formatted from the other games there? The bottom line comes down that a lot of these changes promote an environment on TL as a whole of "This community does not belong here" for TL LoL. This environment is not a good thing for anyone, and it doesn't help that there is animosity from certain fans of SC2/DotA2 towards LoL. It gives them more reason to feel their hate is justified by seeing LoL further demoted or now put down in the "other games" section. On May 21 2014 02:40 Hot_Bid wrote:
In addition to what Naz said I just wanna make a point that the idea of "TL hates LoL" really is kind of ridiculous.
Everyone who has played StarCraft has at some point in their lives made a "LoL is easy" joke but every time I'm asked seriously about this topic I always criticize the SC fans and players who hate on another game that people enjoy. Simply because I personally don't play a game does not mean I hate it or don't respect it or the scene it has created.
Also, it may go without saying but I would love nothing more than to have a TL LoL site that is successful and great. However, after long discussion and a lot of thought about it, we've decided we can't do it right now. A lot factors go into this decision and a lot of them are outside our control, but in summary, considering these factors, we do not feel we have the capability to pull off a standalone TL LoL site the way we want to, with the impact and success we would like.
Does anyone actually believe that despite publicly stating that nobody on TL staff actively or irrationally hates on LoL that we'd just secretly spite-kill a TL LoL site if we had the capability of doing one? Who wouldn't want a successful standalone LoL site? Do you really believe we hate LoL so much that we'd give up ad money and traffic and success and a potentially great community? It's a bit ridiculous right? First, I think saying TL hates LoL is an obvious exaggeration. I just don't understand how you can fault the people who are going to say that. It's inevitable considering how TL has responded to LoL at times. It very well feels like there are many people on TL staff who are indifferent about it, some who dislike it, and even fewer who actually want it around on TL. Again, there is(was?) a real dismissive aura around TL in regards to LoL, and it's not something I'm just randomly making up. Secondly, If a standalone site is the goal for TL some time in the future, the question then turns into a "when"? You were able to release LiquidHearth while it was still technically in beta. DotA 2 similarly was officially supported by TL while it was still in open beta technically(dota 2 was officially released in June/July 2013, the article I linked in my previous post was about TL officially support for DotA2 in August 2012). LoL has been around for 5 years now. TL LoL has been around for a similar amount of time, but has had no real consideration or proper support from TL. Will it ever happen? If you want to make a serious attempt at TL LoL site, why not recruit people now? Make your interest known around the scene while you are making changes to TL so you gain people for the future. Make it known that TL is serious about creating TL LoL standalone, and go from there. Make it known on various sites(such as reddit) that you are looking seriously at this, and would welcome help/criticism. What is occurring now is that TL LoL will stay a fairly isolated section due to TL's prior decisions. As I pointed out above to Nazgul, by putting LoL back into "other games", it further isolates LoL as being something that isn't "TL" and is something "less". What we have now is essentially "we are thinking about it", but no real action shown to the public that it might be a real possibility. I can understand why TL LoL would not have staff/resources to make a standalone site work currently, but I would like to make it clear that it didn't have to be this way. There are real issues with how TL has handled TL LoL, but there is still a demand for a site like TL in the league of legends community. As mentioned, /r/leagueoflegends is not good enough, and the official forums have chosen to mimic reddit in their new community section. There has been no site yet which fulfills what TL offered in the old days, and what TL could offer now. They don't want to "make a serious attempt at a TL LoL site" because they disagree that there is a profitable place/need for one in the community. This is probably largely due to a lack of interest in the community, the people who make the big decisions just like dota better. why not LoL?: "we believe that Dota 2 should be the game we add to our coverage. It "fits" TL's style, and it's very popular among our staff, who play and watch the game as well as visit sites like r/dota2" and it's their site. The reason the old boys arn't writing / creating / promoting content for league is because they don't prefer it. Everyone who wants to create content for LoL on teamliquid can. Of course they don't actively hate on LoL. They can't see all the league bashing around the nose they are looking down at it, propagating ideas like starcraft players prefer dota. they only take away our options when its more important that everyone sees the same "dedicated look" for some reason. like in case someone who changed the default layout forgets to log in and when they cant find a subheading they might get confused and navigate away before remembering how to log in or that they customized their sidebar. That's the only reason i can think of taking the option out... can't risk it.
I know what you are saying, I just wish you formatted it better or phrased certain things better. As it stands now, it's not anything anyone will respond to and give you an answer that you'll like.
Your first point is exactly why I'm attempting to bring up the point that there is no site in LoL that does what TL could do with LoL. The rest is mostly just things that I can understand being around TL as someone who enjoys LoL, but I don't think anyone not involved with LoL will actually understand well enough with how you phrased things.
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No one in either of my league has Kerp. Pretty sure someone has him benched in both leagues though.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
On May 21 2014 04:53 Cixah wrote:
No one in either of my league has Kerp. Pretty sure someone has him benched in both leagues though.
I have Kerp as my flex player
are you jealous
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Not jealous, just wondering who I needed to murder to get him.
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On May 21 2014 04:53 Cixah wrote:
No one in either of my league has Kerp. Pretty sure someone has him benched in both leagues though.
Someone definitely has him in the LoL OT league, but most likely benched due to having a secondary ADCs as Flex position a better overall idea.
On May 21 2014 04:55 Scip wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2014 04:53 Cixah wrote:
No one in either of my league has Kerp. Pretty sure someone has him benched in both leagues though. I have Kerp as my flex player are you jealous
Oh, Scip too strong. I'll probably end up losing to EU due to how Kerp is playing. Sad times.
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On May 21 2014 04:57 ketchup wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2014 04:53 Cixah wrote:
No one in either of my league has Kerp. Pretty sure someone has him benched in both leagues though. Someone definitely has him in the LoL OT league, but most likely benched due to having a secondary ADCs as Flex position a better overall idea.
I still think two mids is best way to run.
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On May 21 2014 04:46 ketchup wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2014 04:18 ComaDose wrote:On May 21 2014 03:52 ketchup wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 21 2014 02:30 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2014 01:53 ketchup wrote:On May 20 2014 20:57 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
The community is only one part of the variables involved with starting a standalone site. News coverage, Staff, Riot esports coverage, existing presence of large community sites, not having a Liquipedia, timing (better to come in early like we were able to do with Hearthstone), and other factors all play an important role as well. We do recognize there is a tight community here but we don't think it translates to standalone site opportunities the way this was the case for other games. Nazgul, Around the time TL introduced that you would be officially covering DotA2, the LoL blurb on the article was fairly dismissive of LoL on TL. A lot of times that TL gets mentioned on reddit for an article the TL LoL staff did, this transition into DotA2 is referenced, and the dismissive tone is set from there on. If I have my timeline correct, Season 2 World Championships for LoL were also coming up shortly after this article. This period of time was so perfect for TL to get a foot into LoL. This is a long time ago now, but it always confused me how it was handled. Would you change how you handled LoL back then or not? I know this is a long time ago, but there is definitely still room for TL to get into LoL. The only thing stopping progression has been TL staff. To add on to the above, there is still no "good" forum for LoL yet. There are various sites that cover LoL, but nothing that attempts to build on the community aspect. The official LoL forums are not really taken care of too well to develop it, or at least there is no real moderation there. Reddit's /r/LeagueofLegends is the closest thing, and it doesn't build the same type of community that TL can. I believe sincerely that there are still people looking for a community that TL LoL can offer, but that a lot of what TL staff have chosen to do has worked against growing TL LoL. These new changes seem like a pretty huge step backwards. Again, if I look at his from an outside perspective, you get a feeling that it dismisses LoL on TL. Any new user that might wander into TL from an article that TL LoL put out will probably wonder why TL LoL is under "other games" section. You would think that with how large the game itself is, it would be natural for it to be on a section of it's own. Lastly, speaking of LoL articles, why were they never spotlighted before? I don't understand how anyone would think that LoL articles/staff did not want to be spotlighted on TL. This makes absolutely no sense to me at all no matter how much I think about it. I know the quality was there. The amount of effort put in to the articles is easily seen. From what I recall, there were a few articles that were translated into Korean. This was so cool to hear about for me, because it was always TL who translated from various Korean news sites, but TL LoL actually got the reverse to happen! I find the lack of care given to TL LoL by TL just off putting, and honestly, it's not really difficult to see why TL LoL has staff issues. I don't know of any person that does not want to be acknowledged for their effort. To put it simply, TL has shown that it is fairly dismissive of the TL LoL staff/community. I sincerely wish you would change this, but I'm probably just hoping for something that will not happen. It's not really a surprise that TL LoL gets put back into the other games section, and I can understand why you think it fits what you see TL as being. I just don't think it's the correct choice when considering what TL means to many of us. I don't think I'll leave the TL LoL forums as long as they exist with the community we have, but it really does suck to see how stubborn TL has been with LoL any time it comes up. This is all coming from someone who is barely involved in TL LoL, so I cannot even imagine how TL LoL staff/writers must be feeling. I apologize for the length that this turned out to be For the full answer on whether or not it was a mistake I could probably fill a book. We've recently gone through a whole period of realization where we have started to feel adding Dota to TL was a mistake. Not because the game isn't worth it, but because TL wasn't equipped for multi-gaming. I have to refer to my blog again that explains this more in depth. Dota resonated incredibly well with our community yet it didn't lead to growth. Our coverage was great, our Dota community was great, yet people from the outside still saw us as that StarCraft site. So with what we have learned about this I definitely think it would have been a mistake to add LoL to the frontpage. Based on what we experienced with Dota we don't think that would have lead to a great position in the LoL community. If two games lead to this many issues three games would have been worse. TL basically did nothing but BW for nearly 10 years. We didn't care which game was bigger we just liked what we were doing. When SC2 came out we took a similar approach and especially when SC2 blew up and TL was in a great spot we thought it was good to keep everything on TL. The thought of a standalone Dota site didn't even cross our mind back then. If I had to point out a mistake it would be that we were late to realize standalone sites dedicated to games were a better option to forming and shaping communities than keeping everything on TL. If we had figured that out in the early stages of League's popularity maybe it could have been possible. The short answer is no I don't think it was a mistake not to add LoL. It would have been too much for TL to handle and additionally in that period there was a lot of fear and dislike among TL SC2 fans. However we have made mistakes such as not thinking about standalone sites in the earlier stages of LoL's popularity. I thank you for this answer. I'm not fully trying to convince you that this change is bad because I understand what you see TL as. I can see why you feel the way you do, but it's different from the TL I imagine. That's okay. The problem comes in with how people who aren't involved see TL LoL as. Again from the outside perspective, a new user on TL looking for LoL will be really confused. Why is LoL listed under "Other Games", and why is it so differently formatted from the other games there? The bottom line comes down that a lot of these changes promote an environment on TL as a whole of "This community does not belong here" for TL LoL. This environment is not a good thing for anyone, and it doesn't help that there is animosity from certain fans of SC2/DotA2 towards LoL. It gives them more reason to feel their hate is justified by seeing LoL further demoted or now put down in the "other games" section. On May 21 2014 02:40 Hot_Bid wrote:
In addition to what Naz said I just wanna make a point that the idea of "TL hates LoL" really is kind of ridiculous.
Everyone who has played StarCraft has at some point in their lives made a "LoL is easy" joke but every time I'm asked seriously about this topic I always criticize the SC fans and players who hate on another game that people enjoy. Simply because I personally don't play a game does not mean I hate it or don't respect it or the scene it has created.
Also, it may go without saying but I would love nothing more than to have a TL LoL site that is successful and great. However, after long discussion and a lot of thought about it, we've decided we can't do it right now. A lot factors go into this decision and a lot of them are outside our control, but in summary, considering these factors, we do not feel we have the capability to pull off a standalone TL LoL site the way we want to, with the impact and success we would like.
Does anyone actually believe that despite publicly stating that nobody on TL staff actively or irrationally hates on LoL that we'd just secretly spite-kill a TL LoL site if we had the capability of doing one? Who wouldn't want a successful standalone LoL site? Do you really believe we hate LoL so much that we'd give up ad money and traffic and success and a potentially great community? It's a bit ridiculous right? First, I think saying TL hates LoL is an obvious exaggeration. I just don't understand how you can fault the people who are going to say that. It's inevitable considering how TL has responded to LoL at times. It very well feels like there are many people on TL staff who are indifferent about it, some who dislike it, and even fewer who actually want it around on TL. Again, there is(was?) a real dismissive aura around TL in regards to LoL, and it's not something I'm just randomly making up. Secondly, If a standalone site is the goal for TL some time in the future, the question then turns into a "when"? You were able to release LiquidHearth while it was still technically in beta. DotA 2 similarly was officially supported by TL while it was still in open beta technically(dota 2 was officially released in June/July 2013, the article I linked in my previous post was about TL officially support for DotA2 in August 2012). LoL has been around for 5 years now. TL LoL has been around for a similar amount of time, but has had no real consideration or proper support from TL. Will it ever happen? If you want to make a serious attempt at TL LoL site, why not recruit people now? Make your interest known around the scene while you are making changes to TL so you gain people for the future. Make it known that TL is serious about creating TL LoL standalone, and go from there. Make it known on various sites(such as reddit) that you are looking seriously at this, and would welcome help/criticism. What is occurring now is that TL LoL will stay a fairly isolated section due to TL's prior decisions. As I pointed out above to Nazgul, by putting LoL back into "other games", it further isolates LoL as being something that isn't "TL" and is something "less". What we have now is essentially "we are thinking about it", but no real action shown to the public that it might be a real possibility. I can understand why TL LoL would not have staff/resources to make a standalone site work currently, but I would like to make it clear that it didn't have to be this way. There are real issues with how TL has handled TL LoL, but there is still a demand for a site like TL in the league of legends community. As mentioned, /r/leagueoflegends is not good enough, and the official forums have chosen to mimic reddit in their new community section. There has been no site yet which fulfills what TL offered in the old days, and what TL could offer now. They don't want to "make a serious attempt at a TL LoL site" because they disagree that there is a profitable place/need for one in the community. This is probably largely due to a lack of interest in the community, the people who make the big decisions just like dota better. why not LoL?: "we believe that Dota 2 should be the game we add to our coverage. It "fits" TL's style, and it's very popular among our staff, who play and watch the game as well as visit sites like r/dota2" and it's their site. The reason the old boys arn't writing / creating / promoting content for league is because they don't prefer it. Everyone who wants to create content for LoL on teamliquid can. Of course they don't actively hate on LoL. They can't see all the league bashing around the nose they are looking down at it, propagating ideas like starcraft players prefer dota. they only take away our options when its more important that everyone sees the same "dedicated look" for some reason. like in case someone who changed the default layout forgets to log in and when they cant find a subheading they might get confused and navigate away before remembering how to log in or that they customized their sidebar. That's the only reason i can think of taking the option out... can't risk it. I know what you are saying, I just wish you formatted it better or phrased certain things better. As it stands now, it's not anything anyone will respond to and give you an answer that you'll like. Your first point is exactly why I'm attempting to bring up the point that there is no site in LoL that does what TL could do with LoL. The rest is mostly just things that I can understand being around TL as someone who enjoys LoL, but I don't think anyone not involved with LoL will actually understand well enough with how you phrased things.
you're assuming i'm trying to facilitate an answer i will like but i'm just saying the way things are. I'm actually quite comfy here overall so w.e.
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United States23745 Posts
On May 21 2014 04:58 Cixah wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2014 04:57 ketchup wrote:On May 21 2014 04:53 Cixah wrote:
No one in either of my league has Kerp. Pretty sure someone has him benched in both leagues though. Someone definitely has him in the LoL OT league, but most likely benched due to having a secondary ADCs as Flex position a better overall idea. I still think two mids is best way to run.
I see people with two Junglers and just shake my head lol.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
On May 21 2014 04:57 ketchup wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2014 04:53 Cixah wrote:
No one in either of my league has Kerp. Pretty sure someone has him benched in both leagues though. Someone definitely has him in the LoL OT league, but most likely benched due to having a secondary ADCs as Flex position a better overall idea. Show nested quote +On May 21 2014 04:55 Scip wrote:On May 21 2014 04:53 Cixah wrote:
No one in either of my league has Kerp. Pretty sure someone has him benched in both leagues though. I have Kerp as my flex player are you jealous Oh, Scip too strong. I'll probably end up losing to EU due to how Kerp is playing. Sad times.
Dude, my draft is even stronger than I originally thought
I can replace Soaz, Rekkles and Yellowstar with Genja, Edward and fredy122 if Fnatic underperform, and the only Fnatic pick I'll have left will be the team itself (which doesn't yield many points anyway iirc)
Looks like NiQ isn't gonna do very well though
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On May 21 2014 05:00 ComaDose wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2014 04:46 ketchup wrote:On May 21 2014 04:18 ComaDose wrote:On May 21 2014 03:52 ketchup wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 21 2014 02:30 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2014 01:53 ketchup wrote:On May 20 2014 20:57 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
The community is only one part of the variables involved with starting a standalone site. News coverage, Staff, Riot esports coverage, existing presence of large community sites, not having a Liquipedia, timing (better to come in early like we were able to do with Hearthstone), and other factors all play an important role as well. We do recognize there is a tight community here but we don't think it translates to standalone site opportunities the way this was the case for other games. Nazgul, Around the time TL introduced that you would be officially covering DotA2, the LoL blurb on the article was fairly dismissive of LoL on TL. A lot of times that TL gets mentioned on reddit for an article the TL LoL staff did, this transition into DotA2 is referenced, and the dismissive tone is set from there on. If I have my timeline correct, Season 2 World Championships for LoL were also coming up shortly after this article. This period of time was so perfect for TL to get a foot into LoL. This is a long time ago now, but it always confused me how it was handled. Would you change how you handled LoL back then or not? I know this is a long time ago, but there is definitely still room for TL to get into LoL. The only thing stopping progression has been TL staff. To add on to the above, there is still no "good" forum for LoL yet. There are various sites that cover LoL, but nothing that attempts to build on the community aspect. The official LoL forums are not really taken care of too well to develop it, or at least there is no real moderation there. Reddit's /r/LeagueofLegends is the closest thing, and it doesn't build the same type of community that TL can. I believe sincerely that there are still people looking for a community that TL LoL can offer, but that a lot of what TL staff have chosen to do has worked against growing TL LoL. These new changes seem like a pretty huge step backwards. Again, if I look at his from an outside perspective, you get a feeling that it dismisses LoL on TL. Any new user that might wander into TL from an article that TL LoL put out will probably wonder why TL LoL is under "other games" section. You would think that with how large the game itself is, it would be natural for it to be on a section of it's own. Lastly, speaking of LoL articles, why were they never spotlighted before? I don't understand how anyone would think that LoL articles/staff did not want to be spotlighted on TL. This makes absolutely no sense to me at all no matter how much I think about it. I know the quality was there. The amount of effort put in to the articles is easily seen. From what I recall, there were a few articles that were translated into Korean. This was so cool to hear about for me, because it was always TL who translated from various Korean news sites, but TL LoL actually got the reverse to happen! I find the lack of care given to TL LoL by TL just off putting, and honestly, it's not really difficult to see why TL LoL has staff issues. I don't know of any person that does not want to be acknowledged for their effort. To put it simply, TL has shown that it is fairly dismissive of the TL LoL staff/community. I sincerely wish you would change this, but I'm probably just hoping for something that will not happen. It's not really a surprise that TL LoL gets put back into the other games section, and I can understand why you think it fits what you see TL as being. I just don't think it's the correct choice when considering what TL means to many of us. I don't think I'll leave the TL LoL forums as long as they exist with the community we have, but it really does suck to see how stubborn TL has been with LoL any time it comes up. This is all coming from someone who is barely involved in TL LoL, so I cannot even imagine how TL LoL staff/writers must be feeling. I apologize for the length that this turned out to be For the full answer on whether or not it was a mistake I could probably fill a book. We've recently gone through a whole period of realization where we have started to feel adding Dota to TL was a mistake. Not because the game isn't worth it, but because TL wasn't equipped for multi-gaming. I have to refer to my blog again that explains this more in depth. Dota resonated incredibly well with our community yet it didn't lead to growth. Our coverage was great, our Dota community was great, yet people from the outside still saw us as that StarCraft site. So with what we have learned about this I definitely think it would have been a mistake to add LoL to the frontpage. Based on what we experienced with Dota we don't think that would have lead to a great position in the LoL community. If two games lead to this many issues three games would have been worse. TL basically did nothing but BW for nearly 10 years. We didn't care which game was bigger we just liked what we were doing. When SC2 came out we took a similar approach and especially when SC2 blew up and TL was in a great spot we thought it was good to keep everything on TL. The thought of a standalone Dota site didn't even cross our mind back then. If I had to point out a mistake it would be that we were late to realize standalone sites dedicated to games were a better option to forming and shaping communities than keeping everything on TL. If we had figured that out in the early stages of League's popularity maybe it could have been possible. The short answer is no I don't think it was a mistake not to add LoL. It would have been too much for TL to handle and additionally in that period there was a lot of fear and dislike among TL SC2 fans. However we have made mistakes such as not thinking about standalone sites in the earlier stages of LoL's popularity. I thank you for this answer. I'm not fully trying to convince you that this change is bad because I understand what you see TL as. I can see why you feel the way you do, but it's different from the TL I imagine. That's okay. The problem comes in with how people who aren't involved see TL LoL as. Again from the outside perspective, a new user on TL looking for LoL will be really confused. Why is LoL listed under "Other Games", and why is it so differently formatted from the other games there? The bottom line comes down that a lot of these changes promote an environment on TL as a whole of "This community does not belong here" for TL LoL. This environment is not a good thing for anyone, and it doesn't help that there is animosity from certain fans of SC2/DotA2 towards LoL. It gives them more reason to feel their hate is justified by seeing LoL further demoted or now put down in the "other games" section. On May 21 2014 02:40 Hot_Bid wrote:
In addition to what Naz said I just wanna make a point that the idea of "TL hates LoL" really is kind of ridiculous.
Everyone who has played StarCraft has at some point in their lives made a "LoL is easy" joke but every time I'm asked seriously about this topic I always criticize the SC fans and players who hate on another game that people enjoy. Simply because I personally don't play a game does not mean I hate it or don't respect it or the scene it has created.
Also, it may go without saying but I would love nothing more than to have a TL LoL site that is successful and great. However, after long discussion and a lot of thought about it, we've decided we can't do it right now. A lot factors go into this decision and a lot of them are outside our control, but in summary, considering these factors, we do not feel we have the capability to pull off a standalone TL LoL site the way we want to, with the impact and success we would like.
Does anyone actually believe that despite publicly stating that nobody on TL staff actively or irrationally hates on LoL that we'd just secretly spite-kill a TL LoL site if we had the capability of doing one? Who wouldn't want a successful standalone LoL site? Do you really believe we hate LoL so much that we'd give up ad money and traffic and success and a potentially great community? It's a bit ridiculous right? First, I think saying TL hates LoL is an obvious exaggeration. I just don't understand how you can fault the people who are going to say that. It's inevitable considering how TL has responded to LoL at times. It very well feels like there are many people on TL staff who are indifferent about it, some who dislike it, and even fewer who actually want it around on TL. Again, there is(was?) a real dismissive aura around TL in regards to LoL, and it's not something I'm just randomly making up. Secondly, If a standalone site is the goal for TL some time in the future, the question then turns into a "when"? You were able to release LiquidHearth while it was still technically in beta. DotA 2 similarly was officially supported by TL while it was still in open beta technically(dota 2 was officially released in June/July 2013, the article I linked in my previous post was about TL officially support for DotA2 in August 2012). LoL has been around for 5 years now. TL LoL has been around for a similar amount of time, but has had no real consideration or proper support from TL. Will it ever happen? If you want to make a serious attempt at TL LoL site, why not recruit people now? Make your interest known around the scene while you are making changes to TL so you gain people for the future. Make it known that TL is serious about creating TL LoL standalone, and go from there. Make it known on various sites(such as reddit) that you are looking seriously at this, and would welcome help/criticism. What is occurring now is that TL LoL will stay a fairly isolated section due to TL's prior decisions. As I pointed out above to Nazgul, by putting LoL back into "other games", it further isolates LoL as being something that isn't "TL" and is something "less". What we have now is essentially "we are thinking about it", but no real action shown to the public that it might be a real possibility. I can understand why TL LoL would not have staff/resources to make a standalone site work currently, but I would like to make it clear that it didn't have to be this way. There are real issues with how TL has handled TL LoL, but there is still a demand for a site like TL in the league of legends community. As mentioned, /r/leagueoflegends is not good enough, and the official forums have chosen to mimic reddit in their new community section. There has been no site yet which fulfills what TL offered in the old days, and what TL could offer now. They don't want to "make a serious attempt at a TL LoL site" because they disagree that there is a profitable place/need for one in the community. This is probably largely due to a lack of interest in the community, the people who make the big decisions just like dota better. why not LoL?: "we believe that Dota 2 should be the game we add to our coverage. It "fits" TL's style, and it's very popular among our staff, who play and watch the game as well as visit sites like r/dota2" and it's their site. The reason the old boys arn't writing / creating / promoting content for league is because they don't prefer it. Everyone who wants to create content for LoL on teamliquid can. Of course they don't actively hate on LoL. They can't see all the league bashing around the nose they are looking down at it, propagating ideas like starcraft players prefer dota. they only take away our options when its more important that everyone sees the same "dedicated look" for some reason. like in case someone who changed the default layout forgets to log in and when they cant find a subheading they might get confused and navigate away before remembering how to log in or that they customized their sidebar. That's the only reason i can think of taking the option out... can't risk it. I know what you are saying, I just wish you formatted it better or phrased certain things better. As it stands now, it's not anything anyone will respond to and give you an answer that you'll like. Your first point is exactly why I'm attempting to bring up the point that there is no site in LoL that does what TL could do with LoL. The rest is mostly just things that I can understand being around TL as someone who enjoys LoL, but I don't think anyone not involved with LoL will actually understand well enough with how you phrased things. you're assuming i'm trying to facilitate an answer i will like but i'm just saying the way things are. I'm actually quite comfy here overall so w.e.
Except you phrase it as if you were in the perspective of someone in the know but are talking completely out of your ass.
Who is the "they" you speak for?
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I might actually do worse than Soniv for my jungler. Diamond going to fail me. gggg
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On May 21 2014 05:10 xes wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2014 05:00 ComaDose wrote:On May 21 2014 04:46 ketchup wrote:On May 21 2014 04:18 ComaDose wrote:On May 21 2014 03:52 ketchup wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 21 2014 02:30 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2014 01:53 ketchup wrote:On May 20 2014 20:57 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
The community is only one part of the variables involved with starting a standalone site. News coverage, Staff, Riot esports coverage, existing presence of large community sites, not having a Liquipedia, timing (better to come in early like we were able to do with Hearthstone), and other factors all play an important role as well. We do recognize there is a tight community here but we don't think it translates to standalone site opportunities the way this was the case for other games. Nazgul, Around the time TL introduced that you would be officially covering DotA2, the LoL blurb on the article was fairly dismissive of LoL on TL. A lot of times that TL gets mentioned on reddit for an article the TL LoL staff did, this transition into DotA2 is referenced, and the dismissive tone is set from there on. If I have my timeline correct, Season 2 World Championships for LoL were also coming up shortly after this article. This period of time was so perfect for TL to get a foot into LoL. This is a long time ago now, but it always confused me how it was handled. Would you change how you handled LoL back then or not? I know this is a long time ago, but there is definitely still room for TL to get into LoL. The only thing stopping progression has been TL staff. To add on to the above, there is still no "good" forum for LoL yet. There are various sites that cover LoL, but nothing that attempts to build on the community aspect. The official LoL forums are not really taken care of too well to develop it, or at least there is no real moderation there. Reddit's /r/LeagueofLegends is the closest thing, and it doesn't build the same type of community that TL can. I believe sincerely that there are still people looking for a community that TL LoL can offer, but that a lot of what TL staff have chosen to do has worked against growing TL LoL. These new changes seem like a pretty huge step backwards. Again, if I look at his from an outside perspective, you get a feeling that it dismisses LoL on TL. Any new user that might wander into TL from an article that TL LoL put out will probably wonder why TL LoL is under "other games" section. You would think that with how large the game itself is, it would be natural for it to be on a section of it's own. Lastly, speaking of LoL articles, why were they never spotlighted before? I don't understand how anyone would think that LoL articles/staff did not want to be spotlighted on TL. This makes absolutely no sense to me at all no matter how much I think about it. I know the quality was there. The amount of effort put in to the articles is easily seen. From what I recall, there were a few articles that were translated into Korean. This was so cool to hear about for me, because it was always TL who translated from various Korean news sites, but TL LoL actually got the reverse to happen! I find the lack of care given to TL LoL by TL just off putting, and honestly, it's not really difficult to see why TL LoL has staff issues. I don't know of any person that does not want to be acknowledged for their effort. To put it simply, TL has shown that it is fairly dismissive of the TL LoL staff/community. I sincerely wish you would change this, but I'm probably just hoping for something that will not happen. It's not really a surprise that TL LoL gets put back into the other games section, and I can understand why you think it fits what you see TL as being. I just don't think it's the correct choice when considering what TL means to many of us. I don't think I'll leave the TL LoL forums as long as they exist with the community we have, but it really does suck to see how stubborn TL has been with LoL any time it comes up. This is all coming from someone who is barely involved in TL LoL, so I cannot even imagine how TL LoL staff/writers must be feeling. I apologize for the length that this turned out to be For the full answer on whether or not it was a mistake I could probably fill a book. We've recently gone through a whole period of realization where we have started to feel adding Dota to TL was a mistake. Not because the game isn't worth it, but because TL wasn't equipped for multi-gaming. I have to refer to my blog again that explains this more in depth. Dota resonated incredibly well with our community yet it didn't lead to growth. Our coverage was great, our Dota community was great, yet people from the outside still saw us as that StarCraft site. So with what we have learned about this I definitely think it would have been a mistake to add LoL to the frontpage. Based on what we experienced with Dota we don't think that would have lead to a great position in the LoL community. If two games lead to this many issues three games would have been worse. TL basically did nothing but BW for nearly 10 years. We didn't care which game was bigger we just liked what we were doing. When SC2 came out we took a similar approach and especially when SC2 blew up and TL was in a great spot we thought it was good to keep everything on TL. The thought of a standalone Dota site didn't even cross our mind back then. If I had to point out a mistake it would be that we were late to realize standalone sites dedicated to games were a better option to forming and shaping communities than keeping everything on TL. If we had figured that out in the early stages of League's popularity maybe it could have been possible. The short answer is no I don't think it was a mistake not to add LoL. It would have been too much for TL to handle and additionally in that period there was a lot of fear and dislike among TL SC2 fans. However we have made mistakes such as not thinking about standalone sites in the earlier stages of LoL's popularity. I thank you for this answer. I'm not fully trying to convince you that this change is bad because I understand what you see TL as. I can see why you feel the way you do, but it's different from the TL I imagine. That's okay. The problem comes in with how people who aren't involved see TL LoL as. Again from the outside perspective, a new user on TL looking for LoL will be really confused. Why is LoL listed under "Other Games", and why is it so differently formatted from the other games there? The bottom line comes down that a lot of these changes promote an environment on TL as a whole of "This community does not belong here" for TL LoL. This environment is not a good thing for anyone, and it doesn't help that there is animosity from certain fans of SC2/DotA2 towards LoL. It gives them more reason to feel their hate is justified by seeing LoL further demoted or now put down in the "other games" section. On May 21 2014 02:40 Hot_Bid wrote:
In addition to what Naz said I just wanna make a point that the idea of "TL hates LoL" really is kind of ridiculous.
Everyone who has played StarCraft has at some point in their lives made a "LoL is easy" joke but every time I'm asked seriously about this topic I always criticize the SC fans and players who hate on another game that people enjoy. Simply because I personally don't play a game does not mean I hate it or don't respect it or the scene it has created.
Also, it may go without saying but I would love nothing more than to have a TL LoL site that is successful and great. However, after long discussion and a lot of thought about it, we've decided we can't do it right now. A lot factors go into this decision and a lot of them are outside our control, but in summary, considering these factors, we do not feel we have the capability to pull off a standalone TL LoL site the way we want to, with the impact and success we would like.
Does anyone actually believe that despite publicly stating that nobody on TL staff actively or irrationally hates on LoL that we'd just secretly spite-kill a TL LoL site if we had the capability of doing one? Who wouldn't want a successful standalone LoL site? Do you really believe we hate LoL so much that we'd give up ad money and traffic and success and a potentially great community? It's a bit ridiculous right? First, I think saying TL hates LoL is an obvious exaggeration. I just don't understand how you can fault the people who are going to say that. It's inevitable considering how TL has responded to LoL at times. It very well feels like there are many people on TL staff who are indifferent about it, some who dislike it, and even fewer who actually want it around on TL. Again, there is(was?) a real dismissive aura around TL in regards to LoL, and it's not something I'm just randomly making up. Secondly, If a standalone site is the goal for TL some time in the future, the question then turns into a "when"? You were able to release LiquidHearth while it was still technically in beta. DotA 2 similarly was officially supported by TL while it was still in open beta technically(dota 2 was officially released in June/July 2013, the article I linked in my previous post was about TL officially support for DotA2 in August 2012). LoL has been around for 5 years now. TL LoL has been around for a similar amount of time, but has had no real consideration or proper support from TL. Will it ever happen? If you want to make a serious attempt at TL LoL site, why not recruit people now? Make your interest known around the scene while you are making changes to TL so you gain people for the future. Make it known that TL is serious about creating TL LoL standalone, and go from there. Make it known on various sites(such as reddit) that you are looking seriously at this, and would welcome help/criticism. What is occurring now is that TL LoL will stay a fairly isolated section due to TL's prior decisions. As I pointed out above to Nazgul, by putting LoL back into "other games", it further isolates LoL as being something that isn't "TL" and is something "less". What we have now is essentially "we are thinking about it", but no real action shown to the public that it might be a real possibility. I can understand why TL LoL would not have staff/resources to make a standalone site work currently, but I would like to make it clear that it didn't have to be this way. There are real issues with how TL has handled TL LoL, but there is still a demand for a site like TL in the league of legends community. As mentioned, /r/leagueoflegends is not good enough, and the official forums have chosen to mimic reddit in their new community section. There has been no site yet which fulfills what TL offered in the old days, and what TL could offer now. They don't want to "make a serious attempt at a TL LoL site" because they disagree that there is a profitable place/need for one in the community. This is probably largely due to a lack of interest in the community, the people who make the big decisions just like dota better. why not LoL?: "we believe that Dota 2 should be the game we add to our coverage. It "fits" TL's style, and it's very popular among our staff, who play and watch the game as well as visit sites like r/dota2" and it's their site. The reason the old boys arn't writing / creating / promoting content for league is because they don't prefer it. Everyone who wants to create content for LoL on teamliquid can. Of course they don't actively hate on LoL. They can't see all the league bashing around the nose they are looking down at it, propagating ideas like starcraft players prefer dota. they only take away our options when its more important that everyone sees the same "dedicated look" for some reason. like in case someone who changed the default layout forgets to log in and when they cant find a subheading they might get confused and navigate away before remembering how to log in or that they customized their sidebar. That's the only reason i can think of taking the option out... can't risk it. I know what you are saying, I just wish you formatted it better or phrased certain things better. As it stands now, it's not anything anyone will respond to and give you an answer that you'll like. Your first point is exactly why I'm attempting to bring up the point that there is no site in LoL that does what TL could do with LoL. The rest is mostly just things that I can understand being around TL as someone who enjoys LoL, but I don't think anyone not involved with LoL will actually understand well enough with how you phrased things. you're assuming i'm trying to facilitate an answer i will like but i'm just saying the way things are. I'm actually quite comfy here overall so w.e. Except you phrase it as if you were in the perspective of someone in the know but are talking completely out of your ass. Who is the "they" you speak for?
ketchup gave advice to nazgul and hot_bid on how to make a serious attempt at a TL LoL site. i said they don't want to make a TL LoL site. Then i quoted the dota coverage release article. what did i say that you disagree with?
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On May 21 2014 04:08 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2014 03:26 kainzero wrote:On May 21 2014 03:13 Slayer91 wrote:
it is really easy though
its just not easy to be good at what's the difference? if the objective of this game is to defeat your opponent, then the difficulty should be determined by your opponent, not by mechanics. it takes more effort to win a 15 round boxing match than it does to win a LoL game im talking how difficult it is to play the game
I think I had this conversation somewhere on this thread with Yango before, I'll leave it at that because it's a fruitless discussion unless you like discussing this kind of thing.
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It would appear Soniv's Selfie pick was as awful as I expected huehuehuehue
GhandiEAGLE takes round 1 lead :F
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
Oh god, NiQ just barely escaping with his life every single time
He is doing pretty well given the circumstances, at least as far as LCS draft is concerned
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Turns out someone who doesn't keep up with the league pro scene has no idea what to draft
On May 21 2014 05:13 ketchup wrote:
I might actually do worse than Soniv for my jungler. Diamond going to fail me. gggg
It's k, Diamond is in my other draft lol.
On May 21 2014 05:17 GhandiEAGLE wrote:
It would appear Soniv's Selfie pick was as awful as I expected huehuehuehue
GhandiEAGLE takes round 1 lead :F
Our lord and savior SELFIE will show us the way, just have faith.
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EPT
